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Fact or Bad Rumor?

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Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b α HP
April 9, 2004 5:28:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

I bought a new sound card from HP for my Armada E700 laptop and
took it into the shop to be installed. The guy there was just full
of confidence there (sarcasm) telling me that HP ships used parts
and that he couldn't guarantee the new card would work.

It did and works perfectly, but does anyone know if it's true that
HP ships used parts without telling customers what they are
buying?

Ron

More about : fact bad rumor

Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b α HP
April 9, 2004 10:23:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 01:28:25 -0700, "Ron Hubbard" <notat@hotmail.com> wrote:

:>I bought a new sound card from HP for my Armada E700 laptop and
:>took it into the shop to be installed. The guy there was just full
:>of confidence there (sarcasm) telling me that HP ships used parts
:>and that he couldn't guarantee the new card would work.
:>
:>It did and works perfectly, but does anyone know if it's true that
:>HP ships used parts without telling customers what they are
:>buying?
:>
:>Ron

It is pretty much a fact of life when it comes to laptop/notebook computer
mainly due to the proprietary design of each new model.

I'll use small numbers to make it easy on me and you can extrapolate from
there.

Let's say HP (or any other manufacturer) builds 100 units of model ABC.
They "guesstimate" a 5% failure rate on the sound card (or any other
component specific to that model) so they manufacture 105 sound cards. At
that point they move on the manufacturing model DEF that uses a different
sound card. In over 10 years of working on laptop computers I have never
heard of a manufacturer going back and building more of a proprietary part
once that model line is out of production.

What does this mean to the buyer? Well, the first 5 people who have a sound
card fail under warranty are going to get a "new" card. From that point on
anyone who gets a sound card for that model, warranty or not, will be
getting a "new refurbished" part. This pool of refurbished parts comes from
the failed ones that have been sent back to the manufacturer as an exchange
for a working part. If you read all the fine print in the warranty you'll
find this mentioned somewhere.

There is an exception to this rule and that is for "generic" parts such as
hard drives, optical drives, floppy drives, keyboards, displays, etc that
are used on more than one model line. Even there you can run into issues
such as smaller hard drives or slower cd-rom drives no longer being
manufactured. In that case a warranty replacement is almost guaranteed to
be a "new refrub".

gray
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b α HP
April 10, 2004 1:18:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Ron Hubbard <notat@hotmail.com> wrote:
:
: It did and works perfectly, but does anyone know if it's true that
: HP ships used parts without telling customers what they are
: buying?
:
They should NOT be doing that, since a part advertised and
sold as new has to be, well, new.

The problem, of course, is to catch them doing that. It is
easy to claim XYZ Company does something, to actually prove it
is another...

Bruce
--
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Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b α HP
April 10, 2004 7:24:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Bruce Burden" <brucegb@realtime.net> wrote in message
news:40775958@giga.realtime.net...
> Ron Hubbard <notat@hotmail.com> wrote:
> :
> : It did and works perfectly, but does anyone know if it's true that
> : HP ships used parts without telling customers what they are
> : buying?
> :
> They should NOT be doing that, since a part advertised and
> sold as new has to be, well, new.
>
> The problem, of course, is to catch them doing that. It is
> easy to claim XYZ Company does something, to actually prove it
> is another...
>
> Bruce


Ah, but there is a catch.

The warranty is on the complete laptop, not on
individual parts. Say the CD-ROM drive breaks
and you send the laptop back to the vendor for
repair -- or they send you a replacement part
by mail. It is perfectly legal for the drive
(or any part) they send you not to be new, as
long as it fixes the problem.

Likewise, there is no legal requirement that
every part used in building a computer sold
as "new" must be itself new and never used
previously.



dk
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b α HP
April 11, 2004 4:50:59 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Seems Packard Bell lost their britches on that gamble back in the late 90's.
If you sell a product as new and it is proven to have used parts, you are in
fact selling a rebuilt product and can be held liable.

Following is a slice from this web page:
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-222124.html?legacy=cnet

Packard Bell agreed to pay more than $5 million as part of a multistate and
federal settlement over allegations the computer maker sold previously used
components in "new" computers, the company announced today.


"Dan Koren" <dankoren@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:407768fd$1@news.meer.net...
> "Bruce Burden" <brucegb@realtime.net> wrote in message
> news:40775958@giga.realtime.net...
> > Ron Hubbard <notat@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > :
> > : It did and works perfectly, but does anyone know if it's true that
> > : HP ships used parts without telling customers what they are
> > : buying?
> > :
> > They should NOT be doing that, since a part advertised and
> > sold as new has to be, well, new.
> >
> > The problem, of course, is to catch them doing that. It is
> > easy to claim XYZ Company does something, to actually prove it
> > is another...
> >
> > Bruce
>
>
> Ah, but there is a catch.
>
> The warranty is on the complete laptop, not on
> individual parts. Say the CD-ROM drive breaks
> and you send the laptop back to the vendor for
> repair -- or they send you a replacement part
> by mail. It is perfectly legal for the drive
> (or any part) they send you not to be new, as
> long as it fixes the problem.
>
> Likewise, there is no legal requirement that
> every part used in building a computer sold
> as "new" must be itself new and never used
> previously.
>
>
>
> dk
>
>
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b α HP
April 11, 2004 5:57:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

In article <c55mte$2puvjb$1@ID-43450.news.uni-berlin.de>,
notat@hotmail.com says...
> I bought a new sound card from HP for my Armada E700 laptop and
> took it into the shop to be installed. The guy there was just full
> of confidence there (sarcasm) telling me that HP ships used parts
> and that he couldn't guarantee the new card would work.
>
> It did and works perfectly, but does anyone know if it's true that
> HP ships used parts without telling customers what they are
> buying?
>
> Ron
>
>
>
>
>
The US has strict rules (and penalties) on selling "used" items. Such
that even if an item is opened it's not legal to sell it as NEW.

Anything refurbished in the US MUST be sold as refurbished.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b α HP
April 11, 2004 5:58:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

In article <407768fd$1@news.meer.net>, dankoren@yahoo.com says...
> "Bruce Burden" <brucegb@realtime.net> wrote in message
> news:40775958@giga.realtime.net...
> > Ron Hubbard <notat@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > :
> > : It did and works perfectly, but does anyone know if it's true that
> > : HP ships used parts without telling customers what they are
> > : buying?
> > :
> > They should NOT be doing that, since a part advertised and
> > sold as new has to be, well, new.
> >
> > The problem, of course, is to catch them doing that. It is
> > easy to claim XYZ Company does something, to actually prove it
> > is another...
> >
> > Bruce
>
>
> Ah, but there is a catch.
>
> The warranty is on the complete laptop, not on
> individual parts. Say the CD-ROM drive breaks
> and you send the laptop back to the vendor for
> repair -- or they send you a replacement part
> by mail. It is perfectly legal for the drive
> (or any part) they send you not to be new, as
> long as it fixes the problem.
>
> Likewise, there is no legal requirement that
> every part used in building a computer sold
> as "new" must be itself new and never used
> previously.
>
>
>
> dk
>
>
>
Um, in the US yes there is. It is part of the laws governing retail
sales that any part of an purchase sold as NEW must be new. If there is
a single item that's not NEW, the whole can not be sold as NEW.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b α HP
April 11, 2004 11:35:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Stromm Sarnac" <strommsarnac@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ae351687accfff89899cf@news.individual.net...
> In article <407768fd$1@news.meer.net>, dankoren@yahoo.com says...
> > "Bruce Burden" <brucegb@realtime.net> wrote in message
> > news:40775958@giga.realtime.net...
> > > Ron Hubbard <notat@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > :
> > > : It did and works perfectly, but does anyone know if it's true that
> > > : HP ships used parts without telling customers what they are
> > > : buying?
> > > :
> > > They should NOT be doing that, since a part advertised and
> > > sold as new has to be, well, new.
> > >
> > > The problem, of course, is to catch them doing that. It is
> > > easy to claim XYZ Company does something, to actually prove it
> > > is another...
> >
> > Ah, but there is a catch.
> >
> > The warranty is on the complete laptop, not on
> > individual parts. Say the CD-ROM drive breaks
> > and you send the laptop back to the vendor for
> > repair -- or they send you a replacement part
> > by mail. It is perfectly legal for the drive
> > (or any part) they send you not to be new, as
> > long as it fixes the problem.
> >
> > Likewise, there is no legal requirement that
> > every part used in building a computer sold
> > as "new" must be itself new and never used
> > previously.
> >
>
> Um, in the US yes there is. It is part of the
> laws governing retail sales that any part of an
> purchase sold as NEW must be new. If there is
> a single item that's not NEW, the whole can not
> be sold as NEW.


Then you should be reassured that not one computer
vendor's product would meet your strict literalist
reading of this law. To understand why, you only
need to consider the manufacturing process for a
PC or workstation.

Components get picked and inserted/soldered into a
PCB or a motherboard. The PCB is then tested, and
if it fails to pass all the tests, it is scrapped.

What that means is that *any* component that can
be recovered and re-used will be recovered, tested
again individually, then put back into the process.

Next, PCB's and motherboards are assembled into a
PC or workstation. The PC is then system tested.

If it fails, it is taken apart, and its components
are again recycled to whatever extent possible.

And all this is perfectly legal, because none of
them have been *SOLD* as a product (or part of a
product) to anyone yet. The legal definition of
*NEW* parts is based on whether the parts have
been previously *SOLD*, not on whether they may
have been put through multiple build/test cycles.

And to top everything: computer vendors regularly
take products off the line or from their warehouses
and use them internally for up to 3 months, then
they can still sell them as new.

If you think that *NEW* in a legal sense means
"no part of it has ever been used before", you
would be wrong. "New" simply means the complete
product has never been sold before to an outside
customer.

And if you wonder where do I take my information
from, I've been working in the computer industry
for almost 30 years. All of it is verifiable and
measurable.


Happy dreams!



dk
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b α HP
April 11, 2004 11:48:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Stromm Sarnac" <strommsarnac@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ae3510418b40db59899ce@news.individual.net...
> In article <c55mte$2puvjb$1@ID-43450.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> notat@hotmail.com says...
> > I bought a new sound card from HP for my Armada E700 laptop and
> > took it into the shop to be installed. The guy there was just full
> > of confidence there (sarcasm) telling me that HP ships used parts
> > and that he couldn't guarantee the new card would work.
> >
> > It did and works perfectly, but does anyone know if it's true that
> > HP ships used parts without telling customers what they are
> > buying?
>
> The US has strict rules (and penalties) on selling "used" items.
> Such that even if an item is opened it's not legal to sell it as
> NEW.
>
> Anything refurbished in the US MUST be sold as refurbished.


All of which is true, but your interpretation of
what the law means is incorrect.

"NEW" means the COMPLETE product was never sold
before to another customer. It does not mean
that no part or component has ever been used
before being used in the product sold to you.

The manufacturing process for computers is
complex enough that such would be impossible
anyway, or extremely costly. Consider memory
for example: what is a "NEW" memory module?
The chips on it have been tested to death
during their manufacturing process, and the
module itself has been tested to death as
well. By the time it gets into the hands
of a customer, it has already seen more
intense use than it will be put to for
another 6 months. Is it then "NEW"?

"REFURBISHED" means that the product sold to
you was previously sold to another customer,
returned, and repaired to the original spec
(or to whatever spec the vendor is willing
to guarantee). Note that labeling a product
as "refurbished" does give the vendor the
right to provide a weaker warranty, or even
none at all, as long as they clearly say so.

Last but not least, any computer vendor would
be quick to point out that as long as the
product they're selling is covered by the
same performance and reliability warranty
as are "NEW" products, it is a "NEW" product.



dk
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b α HP
April 12, 2004 10:59:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 01:28:25 -0700, "Ron Hubbard" <notat@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>I bought a new sound card from HP for my Armada E700 laptop and
>took it into the shop to be installed. The guy there was just full
>of confidence there (sarcasm) telling me that HP ships used parts
>and that he couldn't guarantee the new card would work.
>
>It did and works perfectly, but does anyone know if it's true that
>HP ships used parts without telling customers what they are
>buying?

You should be happy that the parts have been fully tested, by the
previous user.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b α HP
April 14, 2004 2:14:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

In article <40799dec@news.meer.net>, dankoren@yahoo.com says...
> "Stromm Sarnac" <strommsarnac@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1ae351687accfff89899cf@news.individual.net...
> > In article <407768fd$1@news.meer.net>, dankoren@yahoo.com says...
> > > "Bruce Burden" <brucegb@realtime.net> wrote in message
> > > news:40775958@giga.realtime.net...
> > > > Ron Hubbard <notat@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > :
> > > > : It did and works perfectly, but does anyone know if it's true that
> > > > : HP ships used parts without telling customers what they are
> > > > : buying?
> > > > :
> > > > They should NOT be doing that, since a part advertised and
> > > > sold as new has to be, well, new.
> > > >
> > > > The problem, of course, is to catch them doing that. It is
> > > > easy to claim XYZ Company does something, to actually prove it
> > > > is another...
> > >
> > > Ah, but there is a catch.
> > >
> > > The warranty is on the complete laptop, not on
> > > individual parts. Say the CD-ROM drive breaks
> > > and you send the laptop back to the vendor for
> > > repair -- or they send you a replacement part
> > > by mail. It is perfectly legal for the drive
> > > (or any part) they send you not to be new, as
> > > long as it fixes the problem.
> > >
> > > Likewise, there is no legal requirement that
> > > every part used in building a computer sold
> > > as "new" must be itself new and never used
> > > previously.
> > >
> >
> > Um, in the US yes there is. It is part of the
> > laws governing retail sales that any part of an
> > purchase sold as NEW must be new. If there is
> > a single item that's not NEW, the whole can not
> > be sold as NEW.
>
>
> Then you should be reassured that not one computer
> vendor's product would meet your strict literalist
> reading of this law. To understand why, you only
> need to consider the manufacturing process for a
> PC or workstation.
>
> Components get picked and inserted/soldered into a
> PCB or a motherboard. The PCB is then tested, and
> if it fails to pass all the tests, it is scrapped.
>
> What that means is that *any* component that can
> be recovered and re-used will be recovered, tested
> again individually, then put back into the process.
>
> Next, PCB's and motherboards are assembled into a
> PC or workstation. The PC is then system tested.
>
> If it fails, it is taken apart, and its components
> are again recycled to whatever extent possible.
>
> And all this is perfectly legal, because none of
> them have been *SOLD* as a product (or part of a
> product) to anyone yet. The legal definition of
> *NEW* parts is based on whether the parts have
> been previously *SOLD*, not on whether they may
> have been put through multiple build/test cycles.
>
> And to top everything: computer vendors regularly
> take products off the line or from their warehouses
> and use them internally for up to 3 months, then
> they can still sell them as new.
And the laws state, they are breaking the law. These items are to be
sold as display, internal or simply used. A company is not legally
allowed to use items not transferred to "internal use". Items done so,
go follow deprecitive regulations and can not be sold for "retail"
pricing.

> If you think that *NEW* in a legal sense means
> "no part of it has ever been used before", you
> would be wrong. "New" simply means the complete
> product has never been sold before to an outside
> customer.
Not something I defined, my mistake. In the US, used is define by the
packaging. Once the item has been packaged for sale, if it has been
opened, that item is no longer new. Many companies learned this the
hardware (MicroCenter, CompUSA, OfficeMax, BestBuy, etc.)

Items that failed the manufacturing QA, don't qualify as used (sadly)
in the US.

>
> And if you wonder where do I take my information
> from, I've been working in the computer industry
> for almost 30 years. All of it is verifiable and
> measurable.
Same here, and I even have friends that work in the manufacturing part
of it.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b α HP
April 15, 2004 6:57:49 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

I'm happy that it worked, but I don't like the notion that a
repair shop can take my money and yet guarantee me nothing. If the
shop does faulty work, they can blame it on a bad part. I am also
not happy with the notion that I could pay $66 for a potentially
defective sound card to replace a dead sound card. Too many people
playing "protect your ass." As that horse on Ren & Stimpy used to
say, "No, Sir; I just don't like it!"

Ron



"Salvador Freemanson" <spam@gohome.com> wrote in message
news:6g8k7091jrsfniulrh7is90hm2aeq5cf9e@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 01:28:25 -0700, "Ron Hubbard"
<notat@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I bought a new sound card from HP for my Armada E700 laptop and
> >took it into the shop to be installed. The guy there was just
full
> >of confidence there (sarcasm) telling me that HP ships used
parts
> >and that he couldn't guarantee the new card would work.
> >
> >It did and works perfectly, but does anyone know if it's true
that
> >HP ships used parts without telling customers what they are
> >buying?
>
> You should be happy that the parts have been fully tested, by
the
> previous user.
>
>
!