Direct X 11 Totally replacing out Dirext x 10!?

[carlos_will]

Hey guys,

At the time when DirectX 11 is released, do you think all of the game titles will be DX11 exclusive?

Or will games still be released as DX10 exclusive titles, even though DX11 will be out?

Baring in mind, DX11 is a totally new API, hence all of the introductory technologies, which seem quite powerful and unique, thus most probably maintaining game FPS, whilst using new and improved effects. But with DX10, I have heard its just a very much refined or 'polished' version of DX9.

For example, Company of heroes was released natively as a DX9 title, but a patch was released to make it use DX10.

The reason behind posting this thread is that I am stuck on whether I should upgrade my XFX 8800GTX to a BFG GTX285 OC, and just OC the hell out of my Q6600 (to around 3.4-3.6GHz range) and buy a GA-EP45 UD3R motherboard.

I'm sure a lot of people are in the very same position as me, so should I just buy the upgrades I stated before, or is it worth the wait until DX11 is released and properly used with games, which essentially and possibly might knock DX10 from its throne?

So tell me what you guys think of this?

I'd greatly appreciate your input/ideas/suggestions.

Thanks!

 

[uncfan_2563]

DirectX10 is not "polished" version of DirectX in any way. I'm pretty sure it was 100% completely rewritten which is the reason why you don't see games very often with DX9 and 10 because it isn't very easy to port games from 9 -> 10.

 

[tubers]

dx10 crysis motion blur! YAY.. LOL

oh and the atmosphere in crysis feels kinda different w/ dx10 but not that ground breaking (to me at least)(i dont mean to put down the developers.. since i have no idea how hard to make those dx10 subtle effects)

hope DX11 will give super obvious graphical treats! but would not be a hardware hog..

kinda excited for dx11

 

[carlos_will]

Thanks for the replies

@ct1615, thats helpful information, so your basically saying I should wait, and not purchase another directx 10 GPU? Baring in mind the G200 series was released Mid January 09.

@uncfan - Thanks for clearing that up lol, I just read different bits here and there and I got confused

and tubers, I know what you mean, I'd have to agree with you on that.

But the real question is, should I UPGRADE or WAIT? What would you guys do, or has anyone been in that same situation already RECENTLY, and made the decision already??

Oh, and what about hacks, e.g. hacks for crysis DX9 to make it look pretty much like DX10. Do you think people out there will create hacks, even though it will most probably be harder because of all the new technologies DX11 offer?

 

[The_Blood_Raven]

The reason DX 10 is underwhelming is because nVidia forced Microsoft to eliminate a lot of the features and in fact DX 10.1 is what DX 10 was meant to be and that is also why the HD 2000 series and the HD 3000 series did not perform well compared to nVidia. If you do some researching, which I have becasue I was skeptical, it is actually very infuriating that nVidia was able to influence this decision and get an unfair advantage because, in reality, their hardware was inferior and would not play DX 10.1 well, ridiculous. I have a feeling Microsoft has learned and wont let ANYONE change DX 11 and therefor it should be very worthwhile, but likely a small improvement from DX 10.1.

 

[gamerk316]

believe it or not the majority of people on the PC use XP as their OS. So game developers will not be abandoning DirectX 9 for some time. They will still make sure their new games will also work on DX10. Creating exclusive DirectX games is not a smart idea for sales, look at halo 2 on the PC.

As for Directx 11 feature, If i recall DX10 was suppose to usher in a new wave of computer graphics and games. The games basically looked identical to their DirectX 9 version. I'm not saying DX11 is going to be like DX10, just that you should wait to actually see what developers can do with it and then judge it.

DX10 will be around for quite some time though.

I've been saying this since 2006; glad to see someone here agress with me...

I also think DX10 will be here a while. The main reason is because of the three generations of still capable DX10 cards on the market. Hence, like every other DX version, it will be a while before the first games with DX11, let alone DX11 exclusive games, start to show up.

 

[coozie7]

@ Carlos_will: According to the Internet Rumour Mill ATI will be releasing their new DX11 hardware around October this year with Nvidia following some (unknown) time later.
The 8800GTX is not that bad a card, and can still punch many modern games in the face so before you decide to upgrade ask: Is this current card so slow that it is reducing my enjoyment of the games I play?
If yes, then upgrade, but you'll need to go for a GTX275/HD4890 as a minimum to see a worthwhile improvement in framerates.
If no, leave it alone.
As for DX11: DX9 and DX10 are going to be around for a few years to come, by the time you HAVE to have either we'll already have upgraded anyway, probably to DX12 hardware

 

[edeawillrule]

Direct X 10/10.1 were both more about improving efficiency and performance than graphics detail.

What we saw on screen didn't change a ton necessarily but the gpus themselves were majorly overhauled.

And as for the way they really evolved it was like (starting from 5 and listing the major changes I can remember lol): DirectX 5 > DirectX 6 (Multitexturing) > DirectX 7 (Hardware T&L) > DirectX 8/8.1 (Programmable Pixel and Vertex Shaders) > DirectX 9.0/a/b/c (A lot of things) > DirectX 10/10.1 (Unified Shaders being one of the majors)

Up until 10 they pretty much just added on to what was already there. 10 is actually almost completely different and that's why Vista has its custom version of 9 (9.0L) which is somewhat incomplete and why certain apps require you to actually install 9.0c from the microsoft site (and yes I know that happens anyway but there are certain times like I just mentioned)

So basically 6-9.0c was adding on and 10 was a rewrite.
11 just adds a lot on to 10.1

Sorry about the long lecture :]

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

And always is backwards compatible with DX10, with many functions/uses available to them, without having the HW itself. Say, even if youre running a DX10 card, and even if the game youre running is only a DX10 ported over to DX11 , its highly possible youll see some improvements, much more so than the so called DX10 ported games from DX9, which alot didnt include DX10.1, where we do see improvements, lik HAWX, Assassins creed etc.
At first it wont be much, and even the fps improvements wont be as high as a true DX11 game, but itll be there. Just check out HAWX on ATI cards running DX10 vs DX10.1. Dont expect too much, but moah is bettah. We possibly could see a properly ported DX10 game ported to DX 11 with 25%+ fps gains, but thats best case scenario

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Heres a good review of DX10 vs DX10.1 . I mention this, because people constantly question the value and the results of using the DX10.1 code path vs DX10
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/16400-nvidia-geforce-gtx-275-896mb-review-19.html
Playing HAWX, using 4xAA, we see a 20% boost on average using DX10.1 vs DX10 in 3 various resolutions , 16x10, 19x12 and 25x16

 

[gamerk316]

And always is backwards compatible with DX10, with many functions/uses available to them, without having the HW itself. Say, even if youre running a DX10 card, and even if the game youre running is only a DX10 ported over to DX11 , its highly possible youll see some improvements, much more so than the so called DX10 ported games from DX9, which alot didnt include DX10.1, where we do see improvements, lik HAWX, Assassins creed etc.

DX10 cards will so NO change whatsoever by installing DX11 unless M$ actually re-writes some of the DX10 functions in the process. DX is just a group of .dll files, which have to be explicitly called by a host program. In short: New DX11 .dll's are useless unless a program first calls them (or more specifically, a function within them). Same goes for new functions within a .dll; if they aren't called, they just sit there. Even if the hardware were 100% compatable with DX11 (which its not), you would see no benifit for the exact same reason.

All a DX update does is add/updates a few .dll's and changes the DX version in the registry to tell Windows what version of DX is installed. Those new functions/.dll's are not called by the host program = no change in performance.

Now, if microsoft changes a few functions that already existed during the update process, then of course you'll see some changes in performance, but I don't forsee that happening, as .dll hell is still an all to recent memory...

 

[uncfan_2563]

ok so i'm just curious about this and gamerk kinda made me wonder. If you have a DX 10 card with DX 11 installed on your OS and a game called for tessellation. What would happen? would it crash or would the tessellation just be handled by something else (CPU/GPU core??) What makes me wonder this is that i actually played a dx9 game on a dx7 card a while back so would it work?

 

[mactronix]

So what does it mean for Console ports though, there are a lot of them about. Will they still get ported straight over as DX9 or what ? I guess its all speculation at the moment but i would like to get peoples thoughts on it.
If DX11 hardware does bring the improvements FPS wise that are roumoured then wont that put presure on companies to make and market DX11 games ?

Mactronix

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Did you read the word ported in my post? How does a DX10 game, ported over to DX10.1 work then?

 

[mactronix]

ok so i'm just curious about this and gamerk kinda made me wonder. If you have a DX 10 card with DX 11 installed on your OS and a game called for tessellation. What would happen? would it crash or would the tessellation just be handled by something else (CPU/GPU core??) What makes me wonder this is that i actually played a dx9 game on a dx7 card a while back so would it work?

I'm guessing there would need to be a non Tessellation algorithm built into the coding of the game to make it DX10 compatable.
Just a guess but makes sense to me.

Mactronix

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Just having the DX and or the HW wont help, if the game isnt ported to it. I know it isnt magic heheh
To mac, thats the thing, itll start somewheres, and momentum will carry it forwards.
@ UncFan, itll all work, just that not having the tesselatiom engine means itll be rendered old style, because if they try to emulate it, even on ATI's current tesselation enginge, itll cause slow downs


PS gamer, take a good look at my link, and those numbers, yes its 20% on average

 

[maximiza]

its more like superimposing it then replacing it.

 

[uncfan_2563]

so going by that, having DX 11 cards doesnt really matter minus the new features. It will be backwards compatible with the DX 10 hardware?

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Yes, most of it. Keep in mind, proper DX11 utilization will make it better,by having the DX11 HW, and some things will either be limited or wont work at all, but yes
From what I understand, it depends on game, and ease of use/portability. Not having the right shader arch in DX10 will hold it back, but still can be used nonetheless

 

[mactronix]

Just having the DX and or the HW wont help, if the game isnt ported to it. I know it isnt magic heheh
To mac, thats the thing, itll start somewheres, and momentum will carry it forwards.
@ UncFan, itll all work, just that not having the tesselatiom engine means itll be rendered old style, because if they try to emulate it, even on ATI's current tesselation enginge, itll cause slow downs


PS gamer, take a good look at my link, and those numbers, yes its 20% on average

Pretty much what i was going to say to you JD, its not magic you cant just say it will get ported and that's alright then. I have looked into games such as Assassins Creed and Lost planet and the Devs freely admit that all they did was enhance the calls that were being made by the DX9 engine. None of the stuff (Advanced Tech word there) that makes DX10 DX10 was actually used at all on either game.
just DX9 in a fancy hat to quote one site i remember.
That's the basis of my main concern as far as Consoles and DX9 porting is concerned. If you only end up with a bells and whistles version of DX9 when you port to DX 10 then what on earth do you end up with when you try and extend that to DX11 ?
Remember the cards and software can be as cleaver and feature packed as you like but at the end of the day its the code that counts, if that's not up to scratch then you may as well not bother.

Mactronix (edit for spelling)

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

But, is AC, they removed the DX10.1 path, with a patch. The game sees improvements on ATI DX10.1 capable cards of around 15-20%, or what we see currently in other DX10.1 compliant games. Thats why I say, we'll see some, not all features in games, where some will enhance play, and possibly poorer ones, just on there as a sticker, giving no benefit. But done correctly, as seen in AC, the improvements are there, and yes, some games, itll matter little, thats the nature/makeup of a game;
Hell, it even depends on where in the game for features to used to become prominent. Thats why purists dont like seeing games used in cpu benches

 

[mactronix]

Yes i understand what your saying JD but removing something that is there already like the 10.1 path from AC is relativly simple compared to adding extra stuff in. As i said they didnt do it when they ported AC from DX9-DX10 or lost planet so why would they do it now for DX11 ?
I dont know how the DX10.1 path comes into it as far as AC goes but i am posting th eexcert from the interview i read that concerns what im talking about.

Here is a snippet from a lengthy interview with Charles Beauchemin, Technical Lead, Assassin's Creed PC.

PCGH: When porting for the PC have you thought about integrating support for DirectX 10 into the engine? Will there be a version of Assassin's Creed that will utilize the new Vista API?

Charles Beauchemin: Yes, Assassin's Creed supports DX10 as well as DX9.

PCGH: What are the technical advantages of that API?

Charles Beauchemin: DirectX 10 enables us to make fewer calls to the API to perform the same actions. Therefore, it will be possible for the drivers to make optimizations making the game faster without any change to the game engine. Since most of the DX10 drivers are still young, we can expect a lot of gain to come from the optimization of these drivers.

PCGH: Do you use advanced features of Direct X 10/Shader Model 4 like Geometry Shader, Virtual Texture Management etc.? Can you please give examples how they are utilized? In what way do these features improve or simplify the rendering process?

Charles Beauchemin: No. Most of the porting to DX10 involves optimizations of the existing calls, without any new content.

PCGH: Will the DX 10 visualization differ substantially from the graphics that are rendered with DX 9 hardware? What are the visuals that can only be rendered with shader model 4 hardware? Can you supply us with a visual proof via screenshot too?

Charles Beauchemin: No new content has been added to the DX10 version.

As i said earlier its all really just speculation so far but personally i don't think "porting" will be viable as far as DX9-DX11 is concerned. I could be totally wrong and to be honest i hope i am but if the enhancements that DX11 bring are whats rumoured i cant see a way of simply porting over the improvements that will be worth while, much like a DX9-DX10 port isn't worth the extra effort.
Just my opinion though.
Mactronix

 

[paranoidmage]

From what I understand, ATI's superior architecture are already capable of running some of the DX11 features. So If you want to buy a card now, you could get the 4890 and have partial DX11 support come October.

Let's say a game is in development now with a release date later in 2010. Would the developers have time to implement DX11 features now or would it be stuck with DX10, which was around when development started? How long after the release of DX11 will we see DX11 games released?

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

When was this interview? Thats all important, as the view of DX10 changed along the way, thus DX10.1.
Also CGH: What are the technical advantages of that API?

Charles Beauchemin: DirectX 10 enables us to make fewer calls to the API to perform the same actions. Therefore, it will be possible for the drivers to make optimizations making the game faster without any change to the game engine. Since most of the DX10 drivers are still young, we can expect a lot of gain to come from the optimization of these drivers.


That sounds like the 1 less pass for AA doesnt it? And thats a DX10.1 "exclusive" feature, that yes, is used in AC, with unpatched games (bringing them down to DX10 only), and the improvements have been documented on TR as well as AT

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Notice also, he said driver ability, not HW