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The two question! Die and Temp...

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  • Core
  • GPUs
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September 26, 2009 12:26:10 AM

Well i have two question!

1. what does the die of the CPU or GPU have to do with it i see people all the time saying that the new GPU/CPU are 40nm and not 55nm and i dont get the diffarence! )i thought the smaller the better because less heat but i went for a tour to intel and they told me there that the smaller the hoter it gets so im really not sure !)

2. i have a core i7 920 at 3.33 and its running
CPU 29c
VREG 50c
System 31c

CPU Core 1 46
CPU Core 2 44
CPU Core 3 45
CPU Core 4 41

after playing section 8

is this good or should i underclock it ?


Thanks again!

More about : question die temp

a b à CPUs
September 26, 2009 1:38:32 AM

Well for question 1: Who ever told you on that tour that the smaller the die make the more heat it make (in my option) doesn't know what they where talking about. If that was the case then my 90nm (single core) HT p4 Prescott (nicknamed presshot and for a good reason) would be running cooler than a core i7 (45nm). Although it not.

Question 2: Well we cant really tell by those temps. you need to run a CPU stress program like prime 95. Run Prime 95 on Small FTT (or something like that, forgetting the right test) for 7 - 10mins. When you reach the 7 to 10 min mark take a reading of the core temps. that will tell if you have a temp problem or not.

For you need a really good Temp guide for the i7 the head to this link
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/221745-29-sticky-core...
(made by CompuTronix)

September 26, 2009 1:00:27 PM

Well thanks a lot ! this really was info i was looking for and i will post a prime 95 10min test in just a few minutes lol around like 1 min from now!

Related resources
September 26, 2009 1:21:44 PM

This is whats going on!
its prime and core temp and evga leet tuning and this is after prime is running for 10 minutes

So thanks and hope to hear from you soon!

a b à CPUs
September 26, 2009 4:32:03 PM

ilikegirls said:
its prime and core temp and evga leet tuning and this is after prime is running for 10 minutes
Those temperatures are not unreasonable for a fully loaded CPU. The CPU won't even throttle down from "turbo" mode to "non-turbo" mode until the case temperature hits about 70C, and the case temperature is generally about 5C lower than the core temperatures.
September 26, 2009 6:53:32 PM

Cool thanks a lot!
a b à CPUs
September 27, 2009 2:26:16 AM

sminlal said:
Those temperatures are not unreasonable for a fully loaded CPU. The CPU won't even throttle down from "turbo" mode to "non-turbo" mode until the case temperature hits about 70C, and the case temperature is generally about 5C lower than the core temperatures.

sminlal,

Many individuals could be easily confused by your description. Case? Which case? Computer case or CPU case (entire processor)? As I've stated in countless threads, since temperatures are all about specifications, it's very important to be specific, otherwise, the topic makes about as much sense as apples and oranges thermal fruit salad in a blender.

My objective is to assure that enthusiasts understand Intel's specifications, standards and test methods, so they can better decide how to apply and manage their overclocking options.

From Intel's Processor Spec Finder - http://processorfinder.intel.com/List.aspx?ParentRadio=...

All Core i7 variants:

Vcore Max 1.375v
Tcase Max (CPU temperature) 68c
Tjunction (Core temperature) 73c

From the Core i7 and Core 2 Temperature Guide - http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/221745-29-sticky-core...


"Section 1: Introduction

Core i and Core 2 processors have 2 different types of temperature sensors; a CPU case (not computer case) Thermal Diode centered under the Cores, and Digital Thermal Sensors located on each Core. The case Thermal Diode measures Tcase (Temperature case), which is CPU temperature, and the Digital Thermal Sensors measure Tjunction (Temperature junction), which is Core temperature. Since these sensors measure 2 distinct thermal levels, there is a 5c temperature difference between them, which is Tcase to Tjunction Gradient. Core i7’s / i5’s and Core 2 Quad’s have 1 Tcase and 4 Tjunction sensors, while Core 2 Duo's have 1 Tcase and 2 Tjunction sensors ...

... The monitoring utilities provided by motherboard manufacturers monitor CPU temperature, while some popular freeware utilities monitor Core temperatures ... Real Temp ... is recommended for users interested in monitoring Core temperatures only ... SpeedFan monitors Tcase (CPU temperature) and Tjunction (Core temperature) ... "


The Thermal Specification shown in Intel's Processor Spec Finder is Tcase Max (CPU) not Tjunction (Core), which is a very common misconception among most enthusiasts. Since there's a 5c gradient between the CPU sensor and the Core sensors, (shown in the following Intel document) - http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0709/0709.1861.pdf - just add 5c to the value shown in the Spec Finder to determine the corresponding Core temperature, which is 73c for all Core i7 9xx variants.

Intel's second and frequently misunderstood Thermal Specification, Tjunction Max, (100c for all Core i variants) applies to overtemp protection such as Throttle and Shutdown, so you don't toast your transistors. As such, any i7 Core temperatures which exceed 73c should be considered "overtemp". Further, when specifications are exceeded, then processor degradation becomes a concern, which is explained in the following AnandTech article - http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3...

Prime95 Small FFT's is the Standard for processor thermal testing, because it's a steady-state 100% workload which yields steady-state temperatures, whereas Blend is a memory cyclic workload which yields fluctuating processor temperatures. Small FFT's will reach 97% thermal saturation within 7 to 8 minutes, so a 10 minute test is adequate. Thermal testing should be conducted as close as possible to 22c (72f) Standard ambient, with case covers removed, the computer clear of any desk enclosures, and all fans at 100% RPM to eliminate cooling variables, and to produce consistent and repeatable results for comparisons. If the Gradient between CPU temperature and "mean" (average) Core temperature is not ~ 5c, then BIOS is incorrectly coded. CPU temperature and Core temperatures can be individually calibrated in SpeedFan by following the Calibrations Section in the Temperature Guide.

OCCT and Burn Test (reminiscent of TAT) use LinPack, which shows thermal signatures that resemble the ups and downs of a bad day on the stock market, and cycle between light workloads, through test segments which spray all processor registers with all one's, (100% thermal load, which equates to 115% workload), and can push an overclocked i7 at Vcore Max 1.375 with HT enabled, right on past Tcase Max to ring the Tjunction Max bell like a fire alarm! :o 

Since there are very few applications or games that will spike, let alone sustain processor workloads beyond 70% to 85%, utilities which load all registers with all one's are not representative of real-world computing. While these utilities are certainly very useful for stability testing, they are inappropriate for thermal testing. The 3DMark benches are excellent for stability testing, as are applications for ripping and encoding.

The best anaolgy to make sense of CPU temperature and Core temperature is to compare them to a 4 cylinder car that has 5 temperature guages; 4 of the 5 guages are cyclinder head temperatures (closest to the heat source), and the 5th guage is the overall engine temperature, which is 5c lower than the other 4 guages, and is the temperature guage with which we're all familiar. We know that red-line for the i7 9xx is 68c on the engine temp guage (Tcase Max) and 73c on the cylinder head temp guages (Tjunction), but if we push the engine too hard and peg all the guages, (95c Tcase overtemp / 100c Tjunction Max) then the engine will shut down.

If you'd like to learn more about processor temperatures, then just click on the link in my signature.

Hope this helps,

Comp :sol: 
a b à CPUs
September 27, 2009 2:28:43 AM

I posted a link to your guide in a above post. :lol: 
a b à CPUs
September 27, 2009 3:02:47 AM

Thank you very much. I need all the help I can get, and your assistance is always welcome! :sol: 
a b à CPUs
September 27, 2009 7:02:38 AM

CompuTronix said:
Many individuals could be easily confused by your description. Case? Which case? Computer case or CPU case (entire processor)?

I apologize for the imprecise language, I should have referred to the IHS (Integrated Heat Spreader) of the CPU.

Quote:
The best anaolgy to make sense of CPU temperature and Core temperature is to compare them to a 4 cylinder car that has 5 temperature guages; 4 of the 5 guages are cyclinder head temperatures (closest to the heat source), and the 5th guage is the overall engine temperature, which is 5c lower than the other 4 guages, and is the temperature guage with which we're all familiar. We know that red-line for the i7 9xx is 68c on the engine temp guage (Tcase Max) and 73c on the cylinder head temp guages (Tjunction), but if we push the engine too hard and peg all the guages, (95c Tcase overtemp / 100c Tjunction Max) then the engine will shut down.
With very much respect to your obvious familiarity with the subject, I think it rather than calling 68c the "redline" it would be a better analogy to think of it as the automatic transmission shift point. It's at this point that the CPU "downshifts" it's clock speed from "turbo" mode by dropping the clock multiplier one notch, similar to a car upshifting and thereby lowering the engine RPM (I realize that there are some problems with the analogy when you dig a little deeper but it still seems apt to me). I could consider the engine "redline" to be equivalent to the 95c Tcase point, the point beyond which damage can occur. I suppose a problem with this could be that some folks would consider anything under the "redline" to be fair game - but I suspect that the kind of person who would cruise around all day at 6000rpm probably can't be helped anyway... ;) 

I've read your very excellent temperature guide and it's been invaluable in helping me to make sense of the Intel data sheets. Thanks so much for the obvious effort that you've put into it.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion on whether the OP's temperatures are reasonable or not under a Prime95 load (even if it was only for 10 minutes). I'm sure the OP would be too.
September 27, 2009 11:33:56 AM

Ok so you are all going way over my head here! lol i just started to get into the whole computer thing and i dont know a think of that you are talking about so if you can simplifiy it and tell me whats going on that would be sweet!
a b à CPUs
September 27, 2009 4:41:31 PM

In simple terms, the temperatures in the screenshot you're posted are in the "safe" range, so I don't think you have too much to worry about. And if the temperatures were to go too high (perhaps about 3-5C or so more than what you're seeing), the CPU should throttle it's clock speed down in order to prevent overheating.
a b à CPUs
September 27, 2009 6:16:11 PM

sminlal said:
In simple terms, the temperatures in the screenshot you're posted are in the "safe" range, so I don't think you have too much to worry about.

Agreed.
sminlal said:
And if the temperatures were to go too high (perhaps about 3-5C or so more than what you're seeing), the CPU should throttle it's clock speed down in order to prevent overheating.

Sorry, but that's just a bit off. From my post above:

"Intel's second and frequently misunderstood Thermal Specification, Tjunction Max, (100c for all Core i variants) applies to overtemp protection such as Throttle and Shutdown, so you don't toast your transistors."
September 28, 2009 9:43:52 PM

CompuTronix said:
Agreed.
Sorry, but that's just a bit off. From my post above:

"Intel's second and frequently misunderstood Thermal Specification, Tjunction Max, (100c for all Core i variants) applies to overtemp protection such as Throttle and Shutdown, so you don't toast your transistors."


so from what you are saying im still way before my CPU is in the danger zone so to speak ?
a b à CPUs
September 28, 2009 11:27:57 PM

The 100C mark really is the "red line" on the CPU. You should aim to keep the temperature well below that - the target measured at the CPU case (that's the metal shield on the CPU itself) should be 68C or less. That's the point at which the CPU will drop out of "turbo" mode to keep within the designed thermal profile - so aiming for that temperature not only protects the CPU, but maximizes performance as well.

The core temperatures are typically about 5C above the CPU case temperature, so you should try to keep them the low 70s or below. Those are the targets when all your CPU cores are running at 100% load using a program such as Prime95.

So the core temperatures in your screenshot (high 60s) are acceptable, but your safety margin is a few degrees C, not dozens.
September 30, 2009 9:32:54 AM

well well when i play a game i really dont use 100 load and the CPU only gets to around 50c MAX ill count that as a good thing and is that cool enought so the CPU will last a while (a few years) until i can get a new one ?
September 30, 2009 9:34:14 AM

btw this is all with a $30.00 air cool so ill call that a good money spent !
a b à CPUs
September 30, 2009 3:30:52 PM

50C is no problem, your CPU will last a long, long time if that's the warmest it ever gets.
a b à CPUs
September 30, 2009 3:35:49 PM

sminlal said:
50C is no problem, your CPU will last a long, long time if that's the warmest it ever gets.


As sminlal said. the cpu will last a long time at those temp. may last even longer than my p4 will. (although my motherboard going to go out first before that happens. :D  )
a c 172 à CPUs
September 30, 2009 4:14:57 PM

CompuTronix said:
Thank you very much. I need all the help I can get, and your assistance is always welcome!

A lot of us regulars regard you as the forum expert on thermal management. Thank you. :bounce: 

A lot of us also think thre new forum ratings suck. "Apprentice". :pfff: 
a b à CPUs
October 1, 2009 4:13:14 AM

Thanks jsc.

It's always nice to be appreciated. :D  Intel has certainly made the topic of processor temperatures overly complicated, so I have to work hard at trying to dispel all the confusion and misinformation, and continually point enthusiast in the right direction, especially when they don't read the Stickies.

And yes, the new Forum rankings have unfairly demoted some of us, which does indeed suck, so my solution was to change my "Personal Quote" from "Tenacity and Attention to Detail" to "Resident Authority Core i7 and Core 2 Temperatures". Not very subtle, but it does serve to I.D. my area of expertise.

Comp :sol: 
!