Current cards and DX11

[OvrClkr]

Ok so maybe this thread has already been posted or maybe not but I want to clear some misconceptions about the compatibility issues when it comes to using a current card (DX9 - DX10) when DX11 comes out full force. Many peeps have been asking me the same question and I thought it would be a great idea to have this posted for reference.

What will happen when DX11 and Win 7 take over? Meaning, will our "current" cards work in conjunction or will we ALL have to upgrade and sell our outdated hardware? It's a fairly easy question but i would like some feedback, as others are asking me way to many questions about this issue and it's getting to be an overwhelming situation.

Thank you all for you feedback,

 

[xc0mmiex]

yes, i want to know too.... i think the whole dx11 thing is starting a HUGE panic

 

[japps2]

there is only panic by people who are overreacting and are uneducated on the matter. Look...DX10 came out 2 1/2 years ago with Vista and I read/heard the exact same posts/panic. However, people are still playing games on their 7800gtx cards...the leading platform for pc's is still XP. Bottom line is there was no mass migration to DX10/Vista and there won't be to DX11/Win 7. Look at the economy; do you think that in this climate that people will be spending $100+ on Win 7 and $300+ on a DX11 card to play a game? No. And developers code the games for the most people. I've seen Crysis on DX9 and DX10...doesn't look much better for the frame rate hit.

 

[OvrClkr]

you ask two separate questions

Will our current cards work in conjunction with Win 7?
Yes, developers will still have games that offer support for DX 10 and DX 9 (like today) since XP is still the leading OS even for computer gamers and early polling states Vista owners will not be upgrading to Win 7 as fast as Microsoft wants people to.

What will happen when Win 7 takes over? By that time you will be in the market for a new card (or even your second DX11 card) so it wont be an issue, similar to people converting to DX 10 from DX9. Plenty of people have DX 10 cards while gaming on XP.

I dont think it is 2 seperate questions but just to correct what I said... I meant when both are out full force just like DX10 and Vista.... Hope this clears things up......

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

All games in the foreseeable future will support all the DX models,up to the ones their coded to, as will the drivers from the companies that make them. So, it doesnt matter what company, what OS or what game youll have, itll work.
The caveats are this. DX10 on up programming if you will, will only work on Vista and W7, as it currently is. Any games that have, or are coded to DX10.1 on up will show those differences in the new DX11 cards, if the game is coded (programmed) for it. Currently, we dont have any examples in games as to how running the DX11 model helps, or improves games, as since DX11 isnt officially out, neither are the improvements, or patching for any games

PS
I included the DX10.1 on up only, as the current nVidia cards arent capable of some DX10.1 functions, which are HW compliant, but nVidias DX11 cards will show those improvements in DX10.1 games when those cards are released

PSS
Ive heard its possible for DX9 games to have a few DX11 functions working, using DX11 by patch, correct me if Im wrong. Thats provided you have a DX10 card on up, and are using Vista or W7

 

[OvrClkr]

All games in the foreseeable future will support all the DX models,up to the ones their coded to, as will the drivers from the companies that make them. So, it doesnt matter what company, what OS or what game youll have, itll work.
The caveats are this. DX10 on up programming if you will, will only work on Vista and W7, as it currently is. Any games that have, or are coded to DX10.1 on up will show those differences in the new DX11 cards, if the game is coded (programmed) for it. Currently, we dont have any examples in games as to how running the DX11 model helps, or improves games, as since DX11 isnt officially out, neither are the improvements, or patching for any games

PS
I included the DX10.1 on up only, as the current nVidia cards arent capable of some DX10.1 functions, which are HW compliant, but nVidias DX11 cards will show those improvements in DX10.1 games when those cards are released

PSS
Ive heard its possible for DX9 games to have a few DX11 functions working, using DX11 by patch, correct me if Im wrong. Thats provided you have a DX10 card on up, and are using Vista or W7

Thanks for the info........ Hopefully concerned peeps will be able to read and understand more about this issue.....

 

[mactronix]

They seem to have put a lot of effort into making DX11 Developer friendly. DX10 had issues not only with not being a great leap from DX9 and XP, but also with programmers not really wanting to code for something new that has far less of a user base.
With DX11 a game coded for DX11 will work fine on a DX10.1 card and a DX10 card and is said to be easier to code as well. To spell it out a DX10.1 card running a DX11 coded game would run all the effects it was capable of and then either try and emulate what it could of the DX11 features which would give a hit in performance or more likely just not use the DX11 features.
As i understand it there will be plenty of Crysis type games like JDJ says basically a DX9 game sprinkled with DX11 effects, same as crysis was sprinkled with DX10 effects.
I don't see the point in coding in DX10 or 10.1 specifically so hopefully the uptake of games coded in DX11 will be better than was the case for DX10 due to the larger user base.

Mactronix

 

[gamerk316]

you ask two separate questions

Will our current cards work in conjunction with Win 7?
Yes, developers will still have games that offer support for DX 10 and DX 9 (like today) since XP is still the leading OS even for computer gamers and early polling states Vista owners will not be upgrading to Win 7 as fast as Microsoft wants people to.

What will happen when Win 7 takes over? By that time you will be in the market for a new card (or even your second DX11 card) so it wont be an issue, similar to people converting to DX 10 from DX9. Plenty of people have DX 10 cards while gaming on XP.

QFT. XP is still going to be the standard, as its the lowest supported common factor for windows. Likewise, even when Vista/7 render XP dead, there will still be more DX10 hardware then DX11 hardware, so thats when the first DX10+ exclusive titles withous DX9 will start to come out.

Like any update to DX, you can consider yourself on a two year timer. Thats how long it usually takes (DX10 aside) for the software to start using the hardware, mainly because of the glut of people who still use XP or won't have DX11 cards.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Trouble with predicting all this, is that theres no real precedent prior to this for comparisons. After Me and W2K died, and xp took over, the pc gaming market was very different than it is today, with consoles, and porting to all platforms etc. Its deffinately more market driven than its been in the past, in the sense that the market has been splintered, and not just by M$ this time, going to a non compatible OS, like before but the console and piracy concerns.
If we dont see something boost this dolldrum of xp and eveyone having to be online etc, pc gaming is going to be in serious trouble.
So, we need DX11, and any pc gamer that says otherwise is cutting their own throats. DX11, opencl and W7 could be the combined catylst that pushes pc gaming ahead. Cause, these cards arent going to be slow, but we need games worthy to challenge them, which soon, DX9 will fail to do

 

[OvrClkr]

I just hope both Win7 and DX11 come out to be what we all expect and not like Vista and DX10 where we all high high expectations but ended up with an unfinished product. XP and DX9 to this date works flawless, so I will cross my fingers and hope for the best.

 

[mactronix]

I agree its definitely down to getting some decent games that are coded in DX11. Don't see the sense in coding in DX10 or 10.1 when as far as i know its going to be easier to use DX11 anyway.(that's what reports have been saying)
I do think W7 will shift the balance of the user base as far as XP is concerned, i will keep XP on a separate drive but i already have my W7 pre ordered. Given a choice i will install new games on W7 over XP as simply put they play better and look better.
Its the console market that's the problem here, they will dictate that games are coded for DX9 and then PC gamers end up with DX11 sprinkled ports.
We need to get devs embracing DX11 sooner rather than later and we need a couple of must have games. hopefully sooner rather than later.

Mactronix

 

[gamerk316]

The sense in DX10 coding is simple: Theres more hardware support. It takes most people 2+ years to cycle out hardware, not the 6 months most of us here follow. Hence, while you COULD code in DX11, there would be no hardware support, and on a OS that doesn't have a lot of people using it.

Hence, the 2 year lag I predict. People won't jump of XP just because of a new OS, no matter how good, because it works. And as long as thats the case, higher DX versions will all have a DX9 base, with extras.

As for consoles, the PS3 uses OpenGL, so stop using that "Consoles use DX9" arguement. Totally diffrent code bases, and totally diffrent architectures. For PC's, you just use C++, for consoles, you use assembly (I hope; thats the only way to get power out of consoles, the Saturn being the most obvious example) and code down to the Register. Console code and Computer code are totally diffrent, and not comparable in any way.

 

[Kkkk1]

I don't understand what the fuss is about. DX10 is going to be supported for at least another 2 to 3 years by which time you'll need new hardware anyway. Also I couldn't really tell a great deal of difference between DX9 and DX10 anyway. I'm assuming this will be the same for DX10 - DX11.

 

[OvrClkr]

Well the reason I posted this is due to the fact that I dont want anything to do with Vista or Dx10. Meaning I currently use Win Xp Pro and DX9c, so IMO it should be a big leap at least for me (hopefully).

 

[gamerk316]

Again, outside of Tesselation, I really don't expect much improvement in quality. Also, until games actually USE DX11 for more then one or two minor features, you won't be seeing any difference.

 

[Dekasav]

But tesselation could be one of the biggest leaps in graphical quality we've seen in quite some time. Not only that, but it's (comparatively) easy to implement & should have a good quality : performance impact ratio.

 

[mactronix]

The sense in DX10 coding is simple: Theres more hardware support. It takes most people 2+ years to cycle out hardware, not the 6 months most of us here follow. Hence, while you COULD code in DX11, there would be no hardware support, and on a OS that doesn't have a lot of people using it.

Hence, the 2 year lag I predict. People won't jump of XP just because of a new OS, no matter how good, because it works. And as long as thats the case, higher DX versions will all have a DX9 base, with extras.

As for consoles, the PS3 uses OpenGL, so stop using that "Consoles use DX9" arguement. Totally diffrent code bases, and totally diffrent architectures. For PC's, you just use C++, for consoles, you use assembly (I hope; thats the only way to get power out of consoles, the Saturn being the most obvious example) and code down to the Register. Console code and Computer code are totally diffrent, and not comparable in any way.

Your first point just contradicts itself. lots more people have the hardware to at least be able to use some of the features and advantages of DX11 as DX10 cards will even benefit to some extent with DX11 coding. Lots of peole have DX10+ capable hardware on a system running XP. This situation is nothing like the DX10-Vista mess. People didnt switch as there were no benefits, this time there are. People didnt switch as it would have meant paying out for extra hardware, this time for a lot of people already have the hardware,certainly more than would have needed to buy it for Vista. So it dosent matter if its DX10 or 11 its the same user base that will see benefits just not all of them at 100% DX11, thats why i think coding in DX10 is pointless and using DX11 makes more sense.

If you are going to start coding in a new DX it may as well be DX11 as you increase your potential user base to everyone from DX10 up.
they pulled Dirt 2 as they couldnt ignore the potential or to quote.
“While the console editions of DiRT 2 will retain their September ship date, we believe that the DirectX 11 feature set is too compelling to ignore, especially considering how much more it can add to the visual experience for PC gamers,” said Bryan Marshall, chief technical officer, Codemasters.
I take your point on consoles but think you are being too literal, I will instead say that Consoles dont code in DX10/10.1 or 11. Either way its the same differance its dumbing down the graphics level of PC games when you just end up with scattered effects added to the ports.

Mactronix

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

I find it interesting people are so willing to throw away the DX10.1 minus 1 pass as seen using AA. Also, AO is eyecandy that is being used, and the improvements fps side are great. Discount these facts, and throw out tesselation, and as mac said, the fact most gamers own DX10 already, and also the W7 uptake thats been seen on pre order, Id say xp has its days numbered, not to mention a few early DX11 releases are already in the pipe, with more to come

 

[gamerk316]

Please, DX10 cards will benifit 0% from DX11, just like DX9 cards benifited 0% from DX10, and just like DX8 cards benifited 0% from DX9.

Companies will not swap over to a new software version until the market exists; thats why only 1 DX10 exclusive game was ever released (and bombed due to poor sales).

Remember, 40%+ of the market can't even run DX10, thanks to XP's refusal to die, so why should companies cut their potential profits in half by coding to a higher standard? Every game for the next two years will be built of DX9, and as XP dies, you will see the switch to DX10. DX11 will not be heavily used for the same reasons DX10 wasn't used: Lack of hardware and software support for most users.

 

[OvrClkr]

The only thing that worries me is the fact that if Win7 comes out to be a cloned version of Vista we will be in very deep trouble due to the fact that Win XP will no longer be supported in the near future and we will end up with 2 OS's that will not be up to par.

So far so good, but we will have to wait a couple of months and see if the transition from Vista to Win7 is really a night and day difference when it comes to making sure that we get a fully working product w/o any compatibility issues, system crashes, etc......

 

[gamerk316]

Win 7 = Vista SP2. M$ just made a situation where their base will be spread over 3 seperate OS's.

7 better be good, because we'll be stuck with it for the next 5+ years...

 

[mactronix]

Please, DX10 cards will benifit 0% from DX11, just like DX9 cards benifited 0% from DX10, and just like DX8 cards benifited 0% from DX9.

Companies will not swap over to a new software version until the market exists; thats why only 1 DX10 exclusive game was ever released (and bombed due to poor sales).

Remember, 40%+ of the market can't even run DX10, thanks to XP's refusal to die, so why should companies cut their potential profits in half by coding to a higher standard? Every game for the next two years will be built of DX9, and as XP dies, you will see the switch to DX10. DX11 will not be heavily used for the same reasons DX10 wasn't used: Lack of hardware and software support for most users.

1."DX10 cards will benefit 0% from DX11". That's not what all the press and developer interviews i have read are saying.
2."just like DX9 cards benefited 0% from DX10". Stop it you know that's technically imposable

3. "Companies will not swap over to a new software version until the market exists; that's why only 1 DX10 exclusive game was ever released (and bombed due to poor sales)". As i said before the market wasn't there as people were not prepared to pay for an OS and then extra Hardware on top just for the sake of a few extra pretty effects.

4. Having XP dosent mean you dont have a DX10+ GPU which is what i have been trying to explain, all you need to get at least some benefit from DX11 is either Vista or more likley W7, (why update to an older OS) W7 is on offer at £44.99 as of now. More people will see it as viable than was the case with Vista as its cheaper and gives the sam eperformance increase in my experiance as a hardware upgrade.

Mactronix

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

OK, so, DX10 nVidia card running HAWX? Using DX11, itll have the 1 less pass/ As seen here on ATI http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/16400-nvidia-geforce-gtx-275-896mb-review-19.html , which shows anywheres from a 10% gain and beyond 20% gain.
So, youre saying a nVidia DX11 card using DX11 wont see these gains, only ATI cards will/do?

 

[mactronix]

The only thing that worries me is the fact that if Win7 comes out to be a cloned version of Vista we will be in very deep trouble due to the fact that Win XP will no longer be supported in the near future and we will end up with 2 OS's that will not be up to par.

So far so good, but we will have to wait a couple of months and see if the transition from Vista to Win7 is really a night and day difference when it comes to making sure that we get a fully working product w/o any compatibility issues, system crashes, etc......

No i dont think W7 will be a leap from Vista but its a viable, very viable switch for people on XP. Vista Now isnt the pig it was on release but as i said who would upgrade to Vista when Ms are doing such a great deal on W7 at the moment. I have both OS's working on differant machines, well XP Vista and W7 as it goes and i much prefer working with W7 than Vista and while it makes little odds if i use XP or W7 for day to day things W7 slaughters XP as far as gaming goes on my machine. Now its possable there are more increases to come when teh full version is released as we dont know if the DX11 on the RC is the full monty yet. I have tried digging but there are no definate answers some say there are increases to come some are not sure. W7 is better in my personal experiance as far as compatability goes but of course thats bound to differ from person to person. But it dosent seem to be a big issue or we would have heard by now i think.


@ JDJ
Did i miss a post here your last post about Nvidia cards just passed me by

Mactronix

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

" I find it interesting people are so willing to throw away the DX10.1 minus 1 pass as seen using AA"
Essentually, it seems quite a few people are making claims from the nVidia standpoint, or view of DX10 being worthless. Since nVidia doesnt even have DX10.1, they dont see the benefits of DX10.1, nor do their users.
DX11 brings not only DX10.1, which I pointed out as a decent improvement, and this is just one we will have with DX11.
Alot of these DX10 games can easily be patched to DX11, if not most, so ONLY nVidia DX10 cards wont benefit from this, but anything DX10.1, which nVidia has now, on up will, plus the other things, like AO etc.
It just seems to me people actually think this is going to extent 4 years are not looking at this realistically.
If you look at the takeup for W7 preorder, as seen in the US and Europe, its been a huge success, and very surprising.
All Im saying is, I agree with you mac, where others keep poinding their xp drum, Im saying its becoming more and more silent, no matter how hard its being hit, and trying to diminish DX11, and what it offers is just 1 thing Ive seen used with this belief, and Ive pointed out a few things alot of people didnt know about DX10.1 as well as DX11, and will continue to do so, as alot simply just dont know