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Time for improvements! (Maybe?)

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July 7, 2009 5:11:59 PM

About a year ago, I was able to piece together my first system. The process was fun, despite my lack of knowledge/experience. Due to recent circumstances, I'm now able to give it a "second-go" in a sense.

I was wondering if the build I'm looking to put together will be comparable (or hopefully superior) to my previous setup. Any advice as to more efficient or cost-effective parts would be appreciated!

(Remember: I'm inexperienced, so any issues that arise *compatibility/PSU/Bottlenecking, for example* I may not know exist. Suggestions would be great: I'm always looking to learn!

Previous build:

Case: Antec Three Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower
Monitor: Acer AL2216Wbd Black 22" 5ms Widescreen LCD
Hard drive: Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 500gb 7200RPM SATA 3.0gb/s 3.5"
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3L LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Mobo
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale 3.16ghz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core
Graphic card: Sapphire 100247L Radeon HD 4870 512MB 256bit GDDR PCI express 2.0 x16
PSU: Corsair CMPSU-650TX 650W ATX12V / EPS12V
OS: Vista 64-bit
Memory: Kingston 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)

New build:
Case: Raidmax Sirius ATX-701WB Black Aluminum ATX Mid Tower
Monitor: Samsung ToC T220 Rose-black 22" 2ms GTG Widescreen LCD
Hard drive: Western Digital Caviar Green WD5000AADS 500gb SATA 3.0gb/s 3.5"
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Mobo
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E8600 Wolfdale 3.33ghz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core
Graphic card: EVGA 896-P3-1173-AR GeForce GTX 275 FTW Edition 896 MB 448bit DDR3 PCI express 2.0 x16 SLI supported
PSU: Same as above.
OS: Same as above.
Memory: G.Skill 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500)

My biggest concerns are: Whether everything will fit on my chosen Mobo (if everything is even compatible), if my chosen PSU is powerful enough, cooling issues, and if the newer graphics build will be a noticeable difference.

Thanks!

More about : time improvements

July 7, 2009 8:21:52 PM

Hold it ! don't get another system,you have an awesome system already.

Going from E8500 to E8600 is a complete waste since the difference is only 100MHZ.
Going from ATI HD 4870 to a GTX 275 is a waste too since the difference isn't much.
Going from a DDR2 800 RAM to a DDR2 1066 RAM is also a waste of money since the difference isn't noticeable.

You have a solid rig mate :)  and going from your rig to the second one u mentioned is a waste of money only.so i say keep your current rig
July 7, 2009 8:37:27 PM

^+1. What I would recommend you do OP is to start to lean to OC. Like Maziar said (Good to see you again man), no point in upgrading. IF and only IF you are a video/photo editor that has multi core aware programs then consider investing in a quad. You may also want to go 8GB (another 2*2GB) if you want and completely turn off/reduce swapfile if doing any RAM intensive tasks, ie Photoshop,vid editing, CAD.

Start here:
GUIDE: Overclocking On EP/P35-DS3L

You can get AT LEAST 3.6-3.8Ghz with a good HSF like the XIGMATEK S1283,TRUE120, CoreContact,etc. It'll cost you about $40-60 for a very good air cooler.
Related resources
July 7, 2009 8:47:57 PM

why make essentially the same system again?


the second one has some components of marginally higher quality , but you are unlikely to notice the difference in the real world between things like the monitors / cpu's and there will be no performance increase that you couldnt get by making a tiny overclock

Spend your money on something useful IMO
[ which doesnt include the second computer you describe ]
July 7, 2009 9:52:54 PM

The thing is, I'm getting the newer build so that I can give my GF the previous one. So, I'm not building this one as an upgrade so much as a replacement for the one I'll be giving her.

I know the components were only slightly more efficient, but I wasn't able to find anything substantially effective without burning holes in my wallet.

If anyone has any suggestions as to stronger components, I'd really appreciate the help.
July 7, 2009 10:13:26 PM

Ahh..... in that case, if you have the budget why not go i7? Or if you can wait i5.

i7 build:
Antec 900
650TX
X58-UD3R
4870 512MB
i7 920
3*2GB DDR3 1600 (GSkill)
1TB WD

Total: ~$1k

Btw, how much is it for the 2nd build you had? If it's only $100-150 cheaper, seriously consider going the i7 route. LGA775 is EOL.
July 7, 2009 11:36:00 PM

I'm going to be honest with you. I didn't understand anything you just said.

The build I was putting together was about $1.5K.

i7? And "EOL"? Remember, I'm pretty inexperienced... that includes the spiffy lingo you're using, haha!
July 8, 2009 1:49:49 AM

^Well long story short: LGA 775 is reaching End of Life (aka EOL) meaning NO new CPUs/updates will be made to the LGA775 platform so investing in an i7 is more future proof and better (bang for buck) for your money (the $1500 you plan to invest). If your budget came to $1.5k with the LCD I highly recommend you going the i7 route. The build I put together came to $995 with out shipping. So you still have $500 to play with in the i7 build.

Core i7 "Nehalem" is/are the new Intel CPUs. It's a new CPU architecture which required DDR3/new socket/chipset. The design has new things such Integrated Memory Controller like AMD, Hyper threading like in P4, more L2/L3,etc that are/were not available for the Core 2 Duo/Quads

For more info on design,etc: http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel

Core i7 Benchmarks: http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3574&p=4/showdo...
July 8, 2009 5:32:32 AM

I still don't recommend u changing your rig,since u have a solid rig,u can OC your E8500 if u want.
Yes Core i7 is faster but when you have such a rig like that i don't recommend u getting an i7 "NOW" because i think an E8500 is plenty fast for now and has a great OC potential,get a new cooler as "Shadow" said and u will be fine for OC'ng :) 

To Shadow:thanks :)  i was a little busy with studying but now i'm back :) 
July 8, 2009 4:03:49 PM

^Dude OP said:
Quote:
So, I'm not building this one as an upgrade so much as a replacement for the one I'll be giving her.

Why shouldn't OP have more performance than his GF's rig :D 
July 9, 2009 1:21:49 AM

The only i7's that I'm finding are either lower clock speeds than my current CPU or exceed $500.

I'm new to this: Would the 2.66ghz i7 I'm looking at perform more efficiently than my 3.16ghz E8500?

And I was really looking for a card that was more effective than my 4870. It runs really hot, so I have the fan running at all times. Is there anything I can buy that would perform as well (or preferably better) that would run cooler?
July 9, 2009 1:37:46 AM

^P In most cases yes, i7 920> E8600. HOWEVER, if you have speed sensitive (mainly old games, even in those cases, the i7 is still very good and won't bottle neck) instead of core sensitive (aka multithreaded) software (ie, GTAIV is heavily core dependent due to poor porting,etc so expect more games like GTAIV to be out in the future), then no.

Again, you can OC the i7 920 to 3.6Ghz easily with a good cooler. At even 2.8Ghz, the i7 will be better.

Any ways, I still recommend going i7 esp. if you want to future proof this build for at least 1-2 years.
July 9, 2009 2:26:58 AM

I'm not sure how the i7 varies from my E8500.
Would it fit the Mobo I picked out for my new build? If so, I might buy the E8500 again for now and invest in the i7 in the near future. Or would I need a new mobo to accommodate the i7?

I need the new build relatively soon, so I've gotta come up with something.
July 9, 2009 4:13:31 AM

Keep your current system. Buy a new AMD system for your GF. Better still give her the EOL intel system = and keep this AMD RIG for yourself - cos it's simply a smarter choice and will run circles around the old one - and it's what you should have bought in the first place - and, yes, I am an AMD enthusiast for good reasons. :) 
Note that if you had bought an AMD system a year ago, you could be doing a simple upgrade path - of simply adding a new CPU = done. No socalled "eol" issues here, thanx very little.

For a lower price, and better performance.

motherboard
= GA-MA790XT-UD4P (socket AM3 MOBO)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... = $114

cpu
= Phenom II 720BE (socket AM3 cpu) (Triple core)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... = $119
=or=
Phenom II 550 BE (socket AM3 cpu) (Dual core)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... = $114

ram
= DDR3 /1333 (2x2 gigs = 4 gigs total.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... = $57


The rest - as you listed above. will be just fine!!!!
You can newegg these items for price yourself.

= Want more? = most people don't need a quad :) 

Quad core = 955 cpu (there are other quads also such as 925 or 810)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... = $245

FAST RAM /made for amd/ OCZ. /low latency.
OCZ3P1600LVAM4GK <<< part number.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... = $88


RE Your video card issues. The fan speed is adjustable in the more recent driver software. You can slow it down slightly and still maintain a reasonable temperature. But vidcards run hot - they are known and designed that way. Cpu's run cooler. nvidias run hot also. Video cards run hot - period.
The ati radeons support DIRECT X 10.1. The nvidias don't.
The 4870 is a very good card. If your girl friend does not require screaming fast performance, you could keep the 4870 and get her a 4830 which uses less power, still has the 256-bit interface like the 4870 (as opposed to a lesser 128-bit interface) and still provides very good game performance, as well as the usual list of HD multimedia features, like the 4870.
Another idea is to increase air flow through the case using an additional fan at front or rear of case.
= radeon 4830 /sapphire.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... = $99

And with an AMD system you don't support antitrust monopoly -
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/business/global/14com...
July 9, 2009 8:02:52 AM

Shadow703793 said:
^Dude OP said:
Quote:
So, I'm not building this one as an upgrade so much as a replacement for the one I'll be giving her.

Why shouldn't OP have more performance than his GF's rig :D 

sorry missed that part :D 
July 9, 2009 8:14:33 AM

don't look at clock speed, look at IPC x Clock Per Second (Hz). e.g for the i7, 4.5 instructions x 2,666,000,000 clocks = ~ 12 million.

for instance a 2.66GHz i7 will do just as many instructions per second as a 3.2GHz amd phenom II. and then there's still turbo mode to play with on the i7.
July 9, 2009 11:18:25 AM

Essentially what you're saying is that I'll suffer no performance loss by switching to an i7?
July 9, 2009 11:30:53 AM

^ pretty much, if anything you'll get a serious increase since you have 8 'cores' instead of 2.
July 9, 2009 2:54:25 PM

Vaszune said:
I'm not sure how the i7 varies from my E8500.
Would it fit the Mobo I picked out for my new build? If so, I might buy the E8500 again for now and invest in the i7 in the near future. Or would I need a new mobo to accommodate the i7?

I need the new build relatively soon, so I've gotta come up with something.


Since no one else replied to this question:

The I7 CPUs use a new socket LGA1366 whereas the E8500 uses the EOL socket LGA775. The two are not compatible. If you bought the E8500 now and the I7 later, then yes. You would need to purchase a new motherboard (and RAM) for the new CPU.

-Wolf sends
July 10, 2009 1:01:50 AM

That being the case, anyone have any suggestions as to a mobo that would accommodate the i7 that would also allow space for an ATI Radeon 4870?

If I go with the i7 build, I wanna ensure that I don't have any overlapping or space issues with the new mobo and my card.
July 10, 2009 1:24:08 AM

Shadow703793 said:
i7 build:
Antec 900 edit: CASE
650TX edit: Corsair 650TX PSU
X58-UD3R edit: Gigabyte X58-UDR3
4870 512MB
i7 920
3*2GB DDR3 1600 (GSkill)
1TB WD edit: Western Digital Black 1 TB

Total: ~$1k


Vaszune.... Shadow703793 listed pretty much all of the parts you need....


Shadow703739..... Do I get any profit from your campaign since you linked to my original thread... LOL!!! :kaola:  Just Joking... :D  I still have to update my signature to show my support!!
July 10, 2009 3:05:26 AM

Seeing a lot of negative feedback (for the EX58-UD3R) on the right angled SATA adapters, and how frustrating it is to work around a card like a 4870 because the length makes it hard to "plugin/organize SATA cables".

Is there a comparable mobo I should be looking at, or are these superficial problems that really won't cause any real inconveniences?
July 10, 2009 3:20:25 AM

Superficial problems that really won't cause any real inconveniences......

Take your time with the cable management and you will be fine......

July 10, 2009 3:58:44 AM

Ok, I think I've finally got a decent understanding in regards to what this build will look like. However, as far as RAM goes, I'm seeing a wide range of prices for 3x2Gs.

What should I be looking for so I might purchase the right RAM for a gaming-oriented rig?
July 10, 2009 4:09:35 AM

Look at the reviews pertaining to the motherboard you decide on buying. There you should be able to see what works stable for most peeps then decide.

July 10, 2009 5:33:14 AM

Vaszune said:
Essentially what you're saying is that I'll suffer no performance loss by switching to an i7?


Really = kinda sorta maybe perhaps is not a good answer = no one here can answer this question because we don't know how you use a pc, what apps you run, if you game, are you a programmer, if you run simulations of asteroids crashing to earth - or what.

If you run single threaded apps such as games (most), it is highly possible that your higher clocked old system would outperform a lower clocked i7. Also a quad cpu is completely useless in that scenario - meaning it's just a waste of money and computing power - because it is 3/4 unused on single threaded apps.

Unless you really need big powerful quad cpu; you are being played for a sucker - it's a waste, you don't need it.

A dual core is lots - and I showed you one above - but you missed it.

Go ahead waste your money on a discontinued quad that will soon eol just like the other spintel stuff - and these fanboys will help lead you down the garden path. Just like your last "eol" system.

PLEASE
Tell me what use you have for a quad processor. ? listening ? Basically, simply - what do you do on a pc? usually, typically, during any given hour.
PLEASE


As for the fanboys of spintel, what reason, for what requirement, are you recommending a quad cpu to this guy? You must be getting paid to do this. And if you are not being paid, then you are trained as parrots. MOST PEOPLE DO NOT REQUIRE QUADS - except for general pseudo enlargement of their "epeens".
July 10, 2009 5:58:07 AM

I agree............................

I have an x2 550 @ 3.5 Ghz and to this day I have not been able to max out both cores. Even when running 2 instances of prime95 it still wont break a sweat. The dam thing is just stupid fast. This is coming from a guy that owns the i7 920,955BE and x2 550...

I guess all the programmers and auto-cad'ers would laugh at my opinion but since all I do is game I will never be able to see a quad reach its peak. Hopefully in the near future we will have a new game that will show us the full potential of these quads.
July 10, 2009 6:00:00 AM

Gigabyte UDR3 mobos are bacically cheaper, defeatured, compromised boards that have weaker pwm mosfet sections incapable of serious power handling. And this underscores the insult to you intelligence. If you don't need good power handling capability, why get quad? Additionally, the i7 is pretty power hungry, as is the 4870 or any similar nvidia card. Hence the board will run inefficiently and be prone to short life.

If you need a fat cpu and a fat vid card, get a REAL MOBO. If Gigabyte mobo, make it a UDP4 or a UDP5. Don't send a boy to do a man's job. That is called poorly balanced system. You could also say a contradiction - but that's getting a little obvious anyway.

Perhaps this exaggeration would illustrate the point - you don't need a quad to play solitaire or check email or surf the web or play any game. If you did all of the above at the same time, plus some video editing, burning dvd's, and watching a movie - all at the same time, then maybe. However, the i7 would break down and stutter and stumble there anyway - and there is no benchmark to disprove that - just real world experience shared by others. It certainly would not be "smooth", cos it would be busy trying to break everything into multithreads, and also busy trying to calculate if now would be a good time to engage turbo joke. The i7 is spintels first attempt at what AMD has been doing since the age of the dinosaur - real quad w 64-bit processing and IMC and hypertransport - AMD has had a lot of success working out the kinks, and did NOT use turbo fake to do it.

I still want to hear what you do with your pc - I see you mentioned games in passing. So you at least need a single core, and probably a dual core. What else?
July 10, 2009 6:32:58 AM

OvrClkr said:
I agree............................

I have an x2 550 @ 3.5 Ghz and to this day I have not been able to max out both cores. Even when running 2 instances of prime95 it still wont break a sweat. The dam thing is just stupid fast. This is coming from a guy that owns the i7 920,955BE and x2 550...

I guess all the programmers and auto-cad'ers would laugh at my opinion but since all I do is game I will never be able to see a quad reach its peak. Hopefully in the near future we will have a new game that will show us the full potential of these quads.


Thank you for sharing that real world experience. I am currently planning a new system, and have been researching for some time now. I used to think I just had to have a quad - but the price was a killer. I eventually got real and decided that what I did with my pc would only require hot performance in gaming, and once in a while I would do some very simple multitasking. I have been driving and old junker pc for some time, and I have become quite used to waiting for a few seconds and the delays and stutters esp. in the middle of games (it has a spintel 2700 cpu in it). Anyway, I DO NOT NEED A QUAD - omg - it hilarious - so I thought maybe a triple core would be nice. Finally, I decided there were other priorities in my life - like I need to pour some money into my old gibson guitar - and so I thought a Phenom II 550 Dual Core would suffice, and save a pile of money also. And the Gigabyte MA790X- UDP4 mobo has zero onboard video, and so no compromise there - and then I discovered the fast ram for AMD systems by OCZ for only a few dollars more, and all this on a PSU 750watts - and I figure I can futureproof easy cos I hace lots of potential upgrades to boot - such as quad, etc, crossfire, move up to 8 gigs ram, etc etc.
So that's the plan so far - need better monitor eventually.

But thanks for your report on similar system - it's very encouraging. I calculated my cost for the basic case itself was approx 700$$ Canadian - so probably about 600 bucks US$$. Still under 1000 with monitor! I don't see how a pc need cost 1500.

btw - for the OP - the stock clock on a Ph II 550 is 3.1 ghz. OvrClkr has obviously overclocked his to 3.6 ghz cos he is obviously an overclocker :)  I would be quite content to run a mild overclock at 3.4 ghz on a 24/7 basis. I do not plan on benchmarking anything cos I don't buy a pc to run benchmarks, and have no need to brag to enlarge my epeen either. :)  :) 

Benchmarks are interesting indicators; but they are too often used to misrepresent things. example - a benchee using a quad to on a single threaded benchmark (most of them are single thread). Real world experience is what you eventually discover when you get it home. Those are the reports I value MOST. Thanx again. :) 
July 10, 2009 6:45:13 AM

You can overclock to 3.4 just by raising the multiplier. It is done in less than 5 seconds and by far the easiest way to raise the performance w/o spending a dime.

Trust me it will be more than enough and remember that if you decide on the UD4P motherboard you have a very good chance of unlocking your chip to a quad....
July 10, 2009 11:17:49 AM

Truth be told, I pretty much only utilize my PC for gaming.

Being that I'll be using it for gaming, I'm seeing now that the i7 might not be the most suited CPU for the job. I won't be running applications or video-editing while I'm playing, so it'd be excessive to choose an i7 over my previous CPU.

My current PC is a solid gaming rig, so I think I may try to match some of the key components.

As far as that goes, does anyone feel there are improvements that could be made to my old rig? I may just build a duplicate with a few tweaks for performance.

Edit: I couldn't find a lot of the old parts I used on newegg, because they're out of stock. I upgraded those parts, while staying within my budget. Does everything look compatible? Will this be a successful gaming rig?

http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=12015326

*BTW* Thanks for all the hasty and concise responses, everyone. The advice and information I've been given has helped tremendously.
July 11, 2009 12:40:36 AM

I've got all weekend to make my final decisions before I actually send out for it.
I think I've got a nice setup here, thus far.
July 11, 2009 9:00:38 AM

It's the same as your old one - socket 775 - EOL. and the mobo is really expensive.
for mobo + cpu + ram
you are spending
= 260 + 180 + 160 = $600

In an AMD AM3 system, with a similar killer mobo, PhII 955 Quad, and fast OCZ ram;
for mobo + cpu + ram
you would spend
= 180 + 245 + 89 = $514

See it all here - and update your wishlist.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

If you willing to spend that kind of money, there isn't much to think about.

This would give you a current, new technology, state of the art AMD "DRAGON" PLATFORM, socket AM3, QUADcore Phenom II 955, 2x2Gigs=4Gigs OCZ DDR3-1600mhz(7-7-7-20), RADEON HD-4890, monster rig

= for $86 LESS than what are saying is a good rig using EOL PARTS !!! =

If you want, you could save more on the cpu by using a triple core or a dual core
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Also, if you want, you could save on the mobo by using this Giga mobo with X chipset instead of the Asus above with FX chipset:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168....

I think you should add a bit for PSU - increase watts slightly from 650 to 750watts.

What you don't know:
the Asus M4A79T mobo is a very respected mobo - it is one of the few mobos that, while overclocked, will still run AMD's "Cool n Quiet" power savings software properly. This means that if you oclox to say 3.6Ghz, which is easy with the Ph II 955, the mobo will still offer low power states (p-states) that will cause the cpu to seamlessly(!) idle at 800mhz,also seamlessly speed up to 3 other p-states at higher speeds - as required, depending on your usage, including full throttle when gaming.
CnQ actually works really well on asus boards. This means if you are typing email, the cpu will seamlessly downshift from it's full speed rather than waste power doing almost nothing as you type !!! (it doen not work as well on other boards IF they are oclox - if no oclox, no problem). This is very important if you are ocloxing.
Because other mobos can't do cnq while overclocked!

re Oclox -
AMD offers a free utility called AOD - "AMD Over Drive". AOD offers totally EZ overclocking, anybody can do it overclocking capability, especially with BE Black Edition cpu's such as the 955 (also 720 or 550). With AOD, you can literally mouse click and drag a slider to desired frequency and that's it. A 955 will easily do 3.6 ghz, with stock cooling - but you might want an aftermarket cooler for more. Personally, I would run at 3.4Ghz 24/7 on stock cooling, heat sink and fan are included.

So if you want to spend that kinda money, get the quad that you also really want!!
(obviously) :)  :) 

or - you can buy the end of life product. not.

The stuff I am recommending is stuff I would consider. You simply have more money to spend than I do. I am looking at the 550 dual core on the Giga X chipset. with the OCZ ram, and a 750w PSU (for future upgrade possibilities). Also i am looking at a radeon 4830. Same idea, just a lot cheaper.

The rest of your wish list is ok. Don't waste your money on a dead end eol system that's overpriced. You will find no possible upgrade path on an eol system.
BTW the Sapphire 1 gig VAPOR X 4890 is really nice.

If you want to verify this info, ask at amdzone.com forum (in the K10 Section). You won't regret it, regardless of which cpu/mobo you choose. And your girl friend might be jealous.

sigh
.
July 11, 2009 9:41:13 AM

sighQ2, stop spamming this thread with your AMD biased BS.

vaszune, currently the i7 IS the best choice for gaming, for two main reasons,

1) it has 8 threads, most games which will come out between now and the end of 2009 will be able to use 4 of those. now, on an LGA775 or AMD cpu, all of the 4 threads will be used up, and the OS and background apps will take up some of the CPU usage. so on the standard quad core you will probably have the CPU running at a high usage rate, thus slowing down gameplay, with the i7 however, you'll have 4 threads running the game and probably two threads running background apps so the threads which the game is running on isn't bloated by background apps. This gives better gameplay.

2) the i7 overclocks very well, with a good cooler you'll reach 4.5GHz, equal to a 13.5GHz P4 in single threaded apps or about a 5GHz 45nm core 2. this also improves gameplay and multitasking.
July 11, 2009 2:21:29 PM

I'll be using the new rig mostly for MMOs, like Warhammer or WoW. From what I've heard from players, both utilize the core2 duo more effectively than quads. In fact, I've even heard that some users were experiencing poor quality because of their quads.

Is this accurate?

I'm really not looking to play any PC games other than MMOs. I generally do all my single-player gaming on my PS3.

And like I said earlier, I'm also not looking to utilize any apps or programs behind my game. When I'm playing Warhammer, I don't watch movies or listen to itunes. So I don't think I need all the extra threads the i7 offers... right?

I'm just looking to find the parts that will perform most effectively during gameplay.
July 11, 2009 4:34:45 PM

WoW can use 4 threads now so that's a load of BS, and the i7 920 is more powerful at single threaded apps than all dual core's (except the E8600) at stock speeds. So they were probably comparing a Q9550 or below to an E8400 or above.

don't forget you have the OS and antivirus as background applications, also since WoW is so big, I wouldn't be surprised if they updated it so it used 6 threads so the i7 future proofs you a little bit there.
July 11, 2009 4:59:28 PM

Helloworld_98 said:
sighQ2, stop spamming this thread with your AMD biased BS.

vaszune, currently the i7 IS the best choice for gaming, for two main reasons,

1) it has 8 threads, most games which will come out between now and the end of 2009 will be able to use 4 of those. now, on an LGA775 or AMD cpu, all of the 4 threads will be used up, and the OS and background apps will take up some of the CPU usage. so on the standard quad core you will probably have the CPU running at a high usage rate, thus slowing down gameplay, with the i7 however, you'll have 4 threads running the game and probably two threads running background apps so the threads which the game is running on isn't bloated by background apps. This gives better gameplay.

2) the i7 overclocks very well, with a good cooler you'll reach 4.5GHz, equal to a 13.5GHz P4 in single threaded apps or about a 5GHz 45nm core 2. this also improves gameplay and multitasking.


YOU said
"it has 8 threads" - inaccurate info, misleading, conditional - it has 4 cores, the rest is software, like some kind of app. Hyperthread sometimes gets busy trying to split simple threads into multithreads when there is no need - another stutter source. (and usually there is no need, except for "benchMarketing"). In Vaszune's case, there is no need. Stutter is not "smooth".

"most games which will come out between now and the end of 2009 will be able to use 4 of those" - you can't prove this - and it would be suicide for a game manufacturer to do this (elite market? no. cost ineffective.). Maybe by 2011-2012. Programmers haven't really begun to write for quad. It's mostly about multitask so far.

"on an LGA775 or AMD cpu, all of the 4 threads will be used up"
- this is amusing, you compare all AMD cpu's to an EOL spintel SOCKET - nice try, this is a mere lie - you get paid by "spintel marketing" to do this? Tell me you care about consumers generally. :)  I am one. :)  I don't work for AMD. And I will never buy spintel. Where are you coming from? Can you simply be honest? It's very easy - I like "easy". And seeing thru your post is easy.

"the i7 overclocks very well, with a good cooler you'll reach 4.5GHz, equal to a 13.5GHz P4 in single threaded apps or about a 5GHz 45nm core 2. this also improves gameplay and multitasking"
- utterly hilarious. A 13.5 Ghz P4 - what a joke - non-existent, exaggerative, FUD - perhaps you could simply make a mere attempt at talking about REAL WORLD COMPUTING EXPERIENCE - but you think that is "spam" right? again, nice try. And btw, the P4 was all based on lies, and survived on the antitrust tactics of your fav monopoly. Google the EU antitrust case, if you don't believe me. And please try to be factual; the OP is sincerely asking for assistance.

= also = I doubt you would want to discuss the power consumption of i7 - spintel reinvented the world to hide this - the socalled "uncore" has been marketed as a separate thing from TDP - they get away with it because it uses a separate power plug (PSU draw!) - so it is not included in TDP; but it is included in pow consume at the wall, o yeh. (more factual "spam" right?) You might find a 1200w supply is not enough to efficiently run the circus example you describe - nice try.

And really, you, and many others whom I simply think are paid, seem bent on the belief that people deserve to be KEPT STUPID. This also is a widespread tactic used by the monopoly to cripple the industry while pretending to compete with AMD. And i7 is a mere copy of AMD's now old tek. What money and 80% marketshare can do - and what it can't. Let truth be known - yeh, more spam, right?


On the other hand:
hahaha - I am not spamming. vaszune needs real world help with a real world system that will perform well in real world conditions.

It is possible that you might be spamming - I will let you decide that, cos I could care less about the misleading parroted phrases of "spin" that you offer based on HEARSAY that (?you might admit?) you heard others say - or perhaps you heard the direct spin of spintel marketing announcing what it "will do in future" via yet another paper launch. Like the sinking of the "Itanic".

spam? = there is no cpu in the world known as "i7" - there are several that bear those initials and they cost up to $1000. Are you thinking that one describes all of them?? (some bench reviews (under and over) clock to simulate all of them = more lies.) I have already clearly demonstrated to vaszune how things can be stupidly overpriced - targeted at the innocents who just want a good computer. (and that was about old overpriced EOL tek). (which is almost unbelievable, and it was also "easy" to do).

Playing the "future card" is something common to spintel fanboy troll marketing tricks. It is news to me that games will go 4 core by the end of 09. And if they do, why do we need 8 cores???? I doubt you can explain.
The world ran on single core for a long time. Things are busier now - but don't confuse a desktop pc with a server. WE are looking at running one app. And an O/S operating system (Vista 64 in this case) is mandatory. btw AMD was doing 64-bit long before spintel tried. Beyond that, we are covered IF games change, and eventually require more cores. Most gamers are still on dual core and are slowly transitioning to 3 and 4 cores. But a previous poster (Ovrclokr) says he cannot use up a Phenom II Dual 550 yet. And that is his actual "real world" experience.

Additionally, I am trying to describe in detail a BALANCED PLATFORM solution, and not just flog some supposedly magnificent cpu chip. What we have achieved in outlining is a complete AM3 PLATFORM system. Real world users COMMONLY refer to their DIRECT EXPERIENCE with such platform systems as "smooth" (no "stutters"), and also claim to have trouble wiping the stupid grins off their faces. (read that sentence again) They also have more money available for other accessories, or other interests in real world LIFE, because they did not pay idiot abusive monopolistic antitrust prices for a simple home pc.

About this "smooth" performance - the Phenom II cpu's mentioned in my socalled spam posts, all have 2 megs L2 cache plus 6 megs of L3 cache. They do not employ deceptions such as turbo or hyperthreading to simulate 8cores (background activity, stutter). It is entirely possible that the acclaimed i7, which doesn't exist, is kinda busy internally keeping track of itself, what it is doing, creating more pseudo cores, and trying whatever low underhanded tricks it can to win yet another benchmark test. But we are talking about running some simple pc games here, and no interest has been expressed in running benchmarks of any kind. (shocking isn't it?) Indeed, I do not know anyone who purchased a pc for the purpose of running benchmarks - perhaps you do, and perhaps thats what you consider to be "real world computing". I certainly do not. I suppose this is spam also. Breaking the spin myths of spintel is fun for me. Wanna play some more? It's "easy".

Perhaps I have lied to vaszune by showing him how to save 100's of $$$ and still purchase a "smooth" stable competitive system that will outperform your socalled non-existent unspecified generalized lies about a $1000 computer chip that somehow seems to represent all that exists in the world of tek. Some of us know better; and we are not ready to lie down for you, while you mutter cheap insults, and provide no real world information that a serious buyer wants help with. I am offering detailed help. I am not lying. I have researched long and hard for months cos I don't wanna waste my money being sucked into to your world of lying misleading antitrust tactics. And the OP needs "details".

I have also linked to numerous options re various cpu choices, and various mobo choices. There are lots of reviews out there. He can do his own research and make his own decision.

I don't care what Vaszune buys - I just want him to make an informed decision based on easily accessible truth; rather than be a victim of hearsay and spin and lies and benchmarketing and antitrust.

If you think I am AMD biased - you got that one thing right! congratulations. But it's about a smarter choice based on collaboration and truth. I think this thread is mainly aimed at that - or is supposed to be.

sigh
.
July 11, 2009 5:18:48 PM

Helloworld_98 said:
WoW can use 4 threads now so that's a load of BS, and the i7 920 is more powerful at single threaded apps than all dual core's (except the E8600) at stock speeds. So they were probably comparing a Q9550 or below to an E8400 or above.

don't forget you have the OS and antivirus as background applications, also since WoW is so big, I wouldn't be surprised if they updated it so it used 6 threads so the i7 future proofs you a little bit there.


FASCINATING !!!

Now you are contradicting:
1 = what you said before
2 = what you say in this post

So, which way is it that is the truth??
1 = i7 is best at single thread apps?
2 = the O/S doesn't matter???
3 = Vaszune advisors are all "bs"ing?
4 = Quad core is not necessary?
5 = the new version of the game favors quadcore?
6 = or is it that I am just laughing at the fact that you think I am a spammer?
7 = all of the above?
8 = some of the above?
9 = it depends on your ever-changing point of view?
10 = are you really just a fudster fanboy spammer?
11 = am I a total moron for revealing your lack of consistency?
12 = i7 is always best no matter what anybody anywhere is doing?
13 = AMD Platform Approach is infallible?
14 = anybody who likes AMD is a moron?
15 = AMD really is aimed at Real World Computing?
16 = overclocking demos are useless, even if 7+ Ghz was attained, and spintel can't do it?
17 = Unrealistic specs are mere tricks and indicate nothing about the fact that cpu's can actually run "cold" even while slightly overclocking.
18 = I could go on, but I prefer to speak to the concerns of the OP, rather than deal with disruptive BS.

Please pick any of the above that you think is/are most truthful; and that might provide True Assistance to Vaszune in purchasing a potent system for HIS Purposes, and not yours, and never mind what people hear/say.
July 11, 2009 5:39:21 PM

When I started this thread, I was asking for help, not trying to initiate a tech-war.

I'm not pointing fingers. I'm just asking for assistance in creating a rig that will perform more efficiently than my current PC.

I'm not looking for answers that are substantiated by theoretical number-crunching, and I'm not looking for answers pertaining to cost efficiency vs. performance. I'm simply trying to build a better machine within my budget. I want the most performance my pocket can currently afford. I'm not looking to skimp here and there to save $100s while sacrificing performance. If it's comparable, sure. But not for the sake of saving money.

If you don't have any real-world, hands-on experience with the components I'm referencing, please stop giving me advice. I want answers, not possibilities.

This being said, I'd like to put an end to all this argumentative nonsense by rephrasing my original question so that it can be answered in the simplest of fashions.

Yes or no: Will my concept for the new build out-perform my old build?

]http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=12015326]

Is everything compatible?

Thank you, everyone, who's posted in an attempt to help me with my questions.
July 11, 2009 6:38:27 PM

Vaszune said:
I'll be using the new rig mostly for MMOs, like Warhammer or WoW. From what I've heard from players, both utilize the core2 duo more effectively than quads. In fact, I've even heard that some users were experiencing poor quality because of their quads.

Is this accurate?

I'm really not looking to play any PC games other than MMOs. I generally do all my single-player gaming on my PS3.

And like I said earlier, I'm also not looking to utilize any apps or programs behind my game. When I'm playing Warhammer, I don't watch movies or listen to itunes. So I don't think I need all the extra threads the i7 offers... right?

I'm just looking to find the parts that will perform most effectively during gameplay.


It is hard to guess why people have quad problems - although background activity with the cpu attempting to "hyperthread" unnecessarily can cause delays, which I refer to as "stutter". (People often "turn off" hyperthread for this reason, and other reasons, such as certain benchmarks have problems with it too. These are known as "slight of hand" tricks to "cover up". Other "stuff" running in background can also divert a cpu - if that's the problem, then it indicates (virus or spyware or a driver/hardware issue or) a quad having trouble with true multitasking - and this brings forward the myth busting re "true multitasking capability", outside of mere lame "cherry-picked benches" BenchMarketing to prove some point of deception. Real world experience is often different to benching - THAT is what I keep trying to tell you. That's the "smooth" experience announcing itself, that's what people report, unprompted, re their AMD Platform Experience. (go and ask at amdzone). That's the stuff that puts a stupid grin on people's faces. People that own c2d and Phenom II say the Ph II is "smoother" and the c2d stutters. I am not making this up - this is what actual users report.

You fellow gamers are reporting that dual cores are adequate, and this is based on basic clockspeed running one or two threads most likely. But they are apparently saying "core2duo", which is dualcore, BUT, once again, that is that same End of Life, Socket 775 platform, with no future upgrade possible, a dead end, a vanishing breed - as you have seen for yourself. I am showing you a current platform with a future - (assuming anything tek has a future). But it is new and current and definitely not EOL - they will be releasing new cpu's, mobos, chipsets, etc for it, through end of 2010, at least. !!!

New cpu's will be drop-in upgrades - so if you go dual core, you can later upgrade to (even newer) triple or quad with only a new, drop-in cpu = done!. The future versions of those will be faster clock speeds (stock). All you need do is make sure you buy the current socket for the platform = AM3 socket mobo. Then you can change cpu, or add ram (8gigs?), as you wish. This is basic. That could maybe be said also for new i7 platform. The big difference is the prices - I have shown you that. But not true for an end of life socket 775. And if spintel decides to switch sockets again soon, you are out again. Same for AMD. But it is known that AM3 is current - for quite a while - indeed they are still releasing it. !

Your best investment, might be the Giga MA790XT-UD4P mobo with a simple dualcore Phenom II 550 Black Edition@3.1 Ghz. That will get you playing your current games and be competitive esp. w the Sapphire 4890. That's an all AM3 Platform. Get a 750 PSU, for possible future power requirements.
A year from now, when you know that AMD is for real, you will have even more options, and could make a decision to upgrade, if needed. A simple, drop-in cpu upgrade would be possible to simply accomodate a situation where game specs might change. The message is that AM3 is new, and still developing; you can get in cheap, and have the whole platform thing wide open for future upgrade possibilities. AMD has planned this upgrade path - it is quite amazingly adaptable, and remarkably low cost, and of known good quality and performance; and it can only get better. The problem is you really have too many options. This is good. Yes?

Anyway, there will be new chipsets in future (by Fall 2009). More cpu choices are coming all the time already. new chipsets mean new mobos coming in 2010. Tek keeps changing - spending wisely, means you can do easy little cheap upgrades here and there as you require for your needs and your investment. SO start cheap, or spend more - the result will be similar in a particular game. But in upgrading, you can keep quality parts and add new parts as you like - you don't need to replace everything. The other choice is to buy the big sys now - it's not too different that way. With a current platform, all the upgrades are still in play. If you go "end of life stuff", you have NONE of these options. The parts I have linked on Newegg are all valid and current. Just do whatever turns your crank most. Easy.

sigh
.
July 11, 2009 6:56:13 PM

^ how the hell did you interpret my post that way?

The i7 does have 8 threads so WTF are you on about.

the AMD phenom II's are aimed at what the Core 2's have now.

I said equal to, there may not be a 13.5GHz P4 but if there was then it would have about the same performance.

Intel do to AMD what the Japanese and Chinese do to the U.S., take a product, and make it better for less money.

We really need to crack down on the AMD "fanboys" or employee's like you. Most of us folk at Tom's do recommend AMD in the right situation, however at the current time, most builds will be at the best for their price point and usage if using an i7 processor. We will however happily recommend the AMD cores for HTPC's and any PC under $1000.
July 11, 2009 6:56:51 PM

Vaszune said:

Yes or no: Will my concept for the new build out-perform my old build?

]http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=12015326]

Is everything compatible?



Outperform? = NO - except the Sapphire 4890. The 6gig ram won't really kick it up much either.

Compatible? = Yes - especially that it is near identical and, unfortunately, eol, with no future upgrade path due to socket 775 platform.

More money is irrelevant - it's not about the cost. It's about the hardware platform itself - and your satisfaction, and your real world computing experience, and whether or not you want to do all of this again next year, which unfortunately would be futility.

(which is what I keep saying).
July 11, 2009 7:10:06 PM

So what you're essentially suggesting I do, Sigh, is to simply replace my chosen mobo and CPU with Socket AM3?

My current choice in build (+your AMD mobo and CPU) = A higher performance rig, that is not EOL?

Just making sure I'm understanding...

July 11, 2009 7:17:55 PM

Since I read the first few posts...I'll chime in with what I think is a better solution.

Why not just build a cheaper rig for your gf and take the money saved and go on a trip out of town for a weekend?

You can build a rig of equal quality to yours for quite a bit less than 1500 dollars.

IMO.

Edit: And if you're looking for a rig that works better, why? Are you unsatisfied with what you currently have? My best friend is still running on an e8400 & 8800gts...and he doesnt seem to want to upgrade anything ever.

I'm just asking.

I recently built a rig on a phenom 720/ddr3/4890 and I really can't foresee myself needing anything more anytime soon.

I already think I went for the overkill with mine. So what's up with your wants :) ?
July 11, 2009 7:24:58 PM

Helloworld_98 said:
^ how the hell did you interpret my post that way?

The i7 does have 8 threads so WTF are you on about.

the AMD phenom II's are aimed at what the Core 2's have now.

I said equal to, there may not be a 13.5GHz P4 but if there was then it would have about the same performance.

Intel do to AMD what the Japanese and Chinese do to the U.S., take a product, and make it better for less money.

We really need to crack down on the AMD "fanboys" or employee's like you. Most of us folk at Tom's do recommend AMD in the right situation, however at the current time, most builds will be at the best for their price point and usage if using an i7 processor. We will however happily recommend the AMD cores for HTPC's and any PC under $1000.


You like flaming? Trolling? Tek war? You want to shoot the messenger? If you presented some useful info that would be nice. I expect soon you will start talking automobile comparisons too; to complement your political reference.

= Side by side = at high resolution = in gaming = AMD 955 will outperform i7 - the i7 wins the benches in LOW resolution - the OP is buying a fat monitor capable of high resolution. What does that tell you? What it tells me is that i7 is a cpu that wants to run video; but it's a cpu - AMD makes both cpu and video; and they know how to allow a hot video card like the 4890 do it's job - the i7 is therefore interfering in the grafx output of the GPU. AMD Fusion CPU/GPU is on the agenda. spintel talks talks talks about it's cpu-based wannabee larrabee - which does not yet exist on the market. I suppose we should believe that too - so much for real world computing - again!

Are you talking about the $1000 i7 chip? or the initial release version of the i7 which has been discontinued already? Those are the cheaper ones. Too bad people got stuck with them. Don't expect an apology from spintel.

Please try to be more accurate in presenting your info. The OP is requesting clear information. Is that clear?

Thx for recommending AMD in Home theatre systems - which only require a single core cpu minimum - more fud from you = useless to the OP. Thank you very little.

Perhaps you could take the system he designed and offer REAL WORLD improvements as I have tried to do - that would be real world HELP. And that's what he wants to know. He does not want to know what you don't know.

sigh
.
July 11, 2009 7:46:55 PM

Alpha, I'm asking for advice as to how to make improvements on a PC I want to build. I didn't ask for "what should I be doing with my money" advice.

Your post was devoid of anything that could contribute to this thread.

Granted this information wasn't necessary to include in my previous posts, I'll include it anyways to illustrate how useless your post was in helping me. I'm handing down my old PC to my GF because she wants it for gaming. I'm building the new one so that we can experience said gaming together.

And Sigh, you've got my attention. But I think you might've overlooked my previous post? You never answered my question, hehe.

Here it is again:

Quote:
So what you're essentially suggesting I do, Sigh, is to simply replace my chosen mobo and CPU with Socket AM3?

My current choice in build (+your AMD mobo and CPU) = A higher performance rig, that is not EOL?

Just making sure I'm understanding...

July 11, 2009 7:50:59 PM

Vaszune said:
So what you're essentially suggesting I do, Sigh, is to simply replace my chosen mobo and CPU with Socket AM3?

My current choice in build (+your AMD mobo and CPU) = A higher performance rig, that is not EOL?

Just making sure I'm understanding...


Yes.

And, like I said, you can choose whichever of the parts I mentioned - that you like best. (esp. if money is no object).

But for your purpose, you don't really need huge cpu/mobo yet - but you can do that if you want. All future upgrade options are in play as long as you already have an AM3 platform - it just means you can replace any part of it individually - drop it in and your done.

I am saying also that the advantage of keeping it simple now is that eventually = new chipsets will generate new mobos =. New cpu's will come anyway. But this is about economy, which you don't seem to be worried about. And so - I said - do what turns your crank. For those games you play currently, any of the aforementioned options will generate similar results - esp. cos the Sapphire 4890 is going to fly the game at hi rez on your new monitor.

If you want to up the ante for future upgrade possibilities - the Antec "signature series" 850w PSU is best available (for any system). Others will attest to that - and you can research "johnny guru" site - he specializes in PSU's. He rates the "signature"s as best above all - available as an 850 and a 1000 (I think). It's just the be all, end all, to-die-for PSU. They are expensive. ($200+).

But yes - swap out the mobo/cpu in your wish list - and swap the ram, because that ram from OCZ is designed for AMD cpu's. (and it's cheaper) (and you can use either 4gig or 8gig - but not 6gig - based on 2 gig sticks of ram). The 6gig/3 sticks idea is another spintel illusion - sorry, that will offend some people. AMD will use 2gig sticks as = 2x2=4gigs, or 4x2=8gigs. For ridiculous money, you can get "4gig-sticks" - not practical.

If you like Corsair ram, you can do that also - but a different kit - like 2x2=4gigs ddr3 ram.

But you want fast timings = 7-7-7-20 or 7-7-7-24. The OCZ ram I mentioned is like that. Slower rams are like 9-9-9-20, etc.

sigh
.
July 11, 2009 7:58:10 PM

I apologize. The goal of my post was to say, build something of equal for a far lot less money than you intended on wasting and use the money saved for something else. the 5xxx series is right around the corner. The reason I asked if you were unhappy with your rig was this: If you aren't then it would be a waste of money on your part. The money saved could go towards upgrades in both pc's. I was simply offering a different solution. Not asking you to be a jerk :) 

Edit: A different solution could also be called improvement. As to not void my post of validity.
July 11, 2009 8:20:06 PM

If you had read any of my previous posts, Alpha, you would have noticed that I had announced that I was going to try duplicate my current PC, but that the parts were out of stock or no longer in production.

Quote:
Edit: I couldn't find a lot of the old parts I used on newegg, because they're out of stock. I upgraded those parts, while staying within my budget. Does everything look compatible? Will this be a successful gaming rig?


I also referenced how I wasn't looking for anything that was cost-efficient while sacrificing performance.

Quote:
I'm not looking for answers that are substantiated by theoretical number-crunching, and I'm not looking for answers pertaining to cost efficiency vs. performance.


I am happy with my current rig, and it's what my GF wants, so I'm going to give it to her and build a higher-performance rig (because the parts I used last time are unavailable) to replace it.

Instead of suggesting a solution to my problem, or referencing a build that would save money while matching performance, you simply made the blatant implication that I was "wasting" my money. And I'm the jerk?

Your post could be wiped from this thread and have no impact (other than saving me the frustration of having to berate you.)

Besides, it's my money, and I'll do what I please with it. I earned it.

On another note: Sigh, thanks for your input.

I'm looking to put together something "here-and-now" to produce performance similar to my current PC so that my GF and I can enjoy the gaming experience together as soon as possible. I see what you're saying about not "needing" the bigger CPU and mobo, but I've got the money to spend (or waste, as some of us would put it) on the excess parts.

Aside from the financial issues discussed, there would be no foreseeable issues that might arise from this build, would there? Everything is compatible right out of the box?
July 11, 2009 8:39:56 PM

I also get criticized for being direct. Tek is a harsh world. It's about the facts. While it is possible to be civil, feelings are secondary to a specific purpose. If the goal is communicated; then reaching it is all that matters. I used to get caught in flame wars a lot - still can; but it is quite useless. I find diplomacy and humility are interrelated sometimes; and seem completely separate at other times.

I found the diversion of the vacation weekend to be a refreshing shift in focus; but there is still a goal to accomplish - and that goal is not mine. In humility, I don't even matter here. Tek is cold. It's my decision to involve myself in this process of answering a request for help. Others can offer assistance as they see fit. It's quite public. And this is hard work; but it is interesting, which makes it easier, if one is interested. If one is interested in other personals - haha - that can get really interesting. Tek does not care about people; and it's good to know that. It's good to be able to choose focus - that has been a hard lesson for me - in focus, the tek communication is enhanced, and the people skills seem to enhance as well - it all comes down to communication. The world's problems are based in a lack of that. People are quite able to care about people - and that is a unique focus. It might be called compassion - not sure - labels are labels - and they are all limiting in some way. The struggle to communicate continues. And learning is really hard work; and again is facilitated by a natural interest in the lesson. In the midst of this rambling, there might be something useful. No guarantee on that one however :) 
!