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Case suggestions and overall liquid cooling build check

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July 22, 2011 4:52:01 PM

Approximate Purchase Date: end of September to the beginning of October.
Budget Range: 2000-2500 Before rebates. (I haven't really given rebates much thought, so this could potentially be after rebates too.)
System Usage from Most to Least Important: Gaming, internet movie watching/surfing, schoolwork
Parts Not Required: Need everything
Preferred Website(s) for Parts: newegg.com (never used them or any other, but I hear newegg is good when they have their price right. Any other suggestions are welcomed and appreciated, as I'd like to be able to shop around.)
Country of Origin: US
Parts Preferences: Don't know, best price/performance really. I just want something good that will work well and last.
Overclocking: Yes, both cpu and slight gpu
SLI or Crossfire: Yes-crossfire
Monitor Resolution: 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 (one day a few years from now I may try to go to 2650x1600, but that's a ways off. I'll cross that bridge when I get there.)

This is what i have picked out so far. Please make any suggestions with relevant info included, as I would like to be able to compare any new options.
CPU: i5-2500k OC'd to 4.3-4.8 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

MB: ASRock z68 extreme4 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws 1600 CAS 9 (timed to CAS 7 still at 1600) http://www.gskill.com/products.php?index=239

Hard Drive: Samsung spinpoint F3 1TB (HD103SJ) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

SSD: Intel 320 128GB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Video Cards: Sapphire Radeon HD 6970 x2 OC'd slightly http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Optical drive: LG WH10LS30 Blu-ray player w/writer http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

OS: Windows 7 64-bit Premium home

Mouse: Roccat Kone [+] http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_p... this is the only place I've found it for US buyers so far. Any suggestions either on other mice or where to buy this one?

Keyboard: Steelseries Merc Stealth http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Monitor: Dell ST2320L 23" LED HD http://accessories.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us... though I've been told since to try to find one with 1920-1200 res, as the 1920x1080 looks squished. Any suggestions if not this one? Here's the review that made me pick it in the first place. http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/ccfl-led-backlight,review...

PSU: I have chosen to go with a Corsair. According to the eXtreme power calculator, I should shoot for 1000W. If that is the case, I was thinking about the HX1050 http://www.corsair.com/power-supplies/professional-seri...

Cooling: I am going to go with liquid cooling, however this is part of my inquiry. I want to OC the cpu to at least 4.3ghz normal with the capacity to OC it to 4.8ghz. I may do some slight OC'ing to the GPUs in Crossfire as well. My LC loop will be cooling both the CPU and the 2 GPUs. I saw good reviews from Skinnee Labs for the Swiftech MCP35X pump, and for the MCR320 drive radiators so I was thinking about going with these. I also noticed on the swiftech site that they offer a pump built into their radiator if I wanted to combo those two and save space. Can anyone give me input on the combo/seperate idea? For the CPU heatsink, I was thinking about going with the Swiftech Apogee XT rev2. However, it is a fairly restrictive sink, so I don't want it to kill my flowrates completely. For the GPU sink I was thinking about the combo swiftech has at this link http://www.swiftech.com/HD6970-HS.aspx The Scythe GT 120 mm 1850rpm fans have great reviews and are quiet. Would these work well, both for intake/exhaust fans and for radiator fans? For thermal grease, I was going to go with Arctic cooling mx-2. If I go with the radiator/pump combo, it says it has a built-in reservoir. As long as it was mounted vertically, I think I could use the built-in res. Any suggestions on using this versus buying a seperate res?
A last question on radiators, and this one is very important to me. If at all possible, I would like to find a setup where my LC system will fit inside my case. Doing this however, is proving difficult. So my question is this, what is the bare minimum/recommended radiator setup for cooling these components? And will this be feasible to fit into a case? (If not, and I really hope this isn't the case, what are some options that would still allow everything to be mounted on the case and still look good?)
edit: as far as tubing goes, I want to find some that is precolored if I get acrylic sides on my case, or will at least look the color of the LEDs.
Also, any suggestions on fan placement to make sure I get air blowing on NB and the GPU sinks?

Case: The case has been hard to decide on, and I am still in the process of looking. A major part of this search has been trying to find a setup that will allow the LC system to be inside the case (see above). Along with that, I really want to be able to enjoy the look of my case, as I will be staring at it for years to come and I don't want to look at it and think "why did I pick that case to have to look at?" With both these things in mind, I have been trying to find a case that will give me enough space to fit the LC system, good airflow for performance, and still be asthetically pleasing to me. Not an easy combo to pull off if I say so myself. Can anyone give me a few suggestions on this and I can look up the cases you link and figure out which ones I like, which ones I don't, and if need dictates, which ones I could at least live with? I'll provide a few liinks to cases which I liked the look of, even if I don't think they'd allow for an internal LC system. Also, one reason I picked these cases, is I like the idea of being able to have the acrylic side to see into the case and have the LEDs. This is not really a requirement in the case, but would be a nice bonus that I'm shooting to get if at all possible. You'll probably also notice I don't tend to like the ones that look like a box; one reason I like the first two is the design of the front (and the fact they aren't just flat).
http://www.nzxt.com/new/products/crafted_series/guardia...
http://www.nzxt.com/new/products/crafted_series/lexa_s
http://www.xoxide.com/thermaltake-xpressar-microfridge-... (just a reference, I like the look, that's all)
http://www.xoxide.com/antec-df-85.html (I don't know if I like the look of the front, but I think it's one I could at least live with. I like it more than their DF-35 case for sure.)
http://www.xoxide.com/nzxt-crafted-phantom-black.html (another example of one I could probably live with, at least its black and shiny :p )
http://www.xoxide.com/thermaltake-armormxvh-case.html (not bad, I like the way the sides come rounded over the top/front at least.)

Last comments. Of the ones I listed, I think the 3 fan intake on the Antec DF-85 would probably give me the performance and doesn't look bad either. From a pure asthetic point of view, I like the guardian 921 RB and the Lexa S the most, though I like most of them to a certain degree. Would any of these work, and do you guys have any other suggestions I might look into? Thanks in advance.
a b K Overclocking
July 23, 2011 12:52:16 AM

Quote:
This is what i have picked out so far. Please make any suggestions with relevant info included, as I would like to be able to compare any new options.
CPU: i5-2500k OC'd to 4.3-4.8 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

MB: ASRock z68 extreme4 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws 1600 CAS 9 (timed to CAS 7 still at 1600) http://www.gskill.com/products.php?index=239

Hard Drive: Samsung spinpoint F3 1TB (HD103SJ) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

SSD: Intel 320 128GB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Video Cards: Sapphire Radeon HD 6970 x2 OC'd slightly http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Optical drive: LG WH10LS30 Blu-ray player w/writer http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

OS: Windows 7 64-bit Premium home

Mouse: Roccat Kone [+] http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_p... this is the only place I've found it for US buyers so far. Any suggestions either on other mice or where to buy this one?

Keyboard: Steelseries Merc Stealth http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Monitor: Dell ST2320L 23" LED HD http://accessories.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us... though I've been told since to try to find one with 1920-1200 res, as the 1920x1080 looks squished. Any suggestions if not this one? Here's the review that made me pick it in the first place. http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/ccfl-led-backlight,review...

PSU: I have chosen to go with a Corsair. According to the eXtreme power calculator, I should shoot for 1000W. If that is the case, I was thinking about the HX1050 http://www.corsair.com/power-supplies/professional-seri...


Build looks good so far. I'd say you'd fare well with 950W for the OCed system, plus a few hundred watts for the WC system, so the HX1050 or AX1200 should work very well. The HX series usually pumps out a bit more power than it's rated for, but I'm not sure about the 1050 specifically.

Take a look at Dell's Professional (P series) and Enthusiast (I think that's what it is - E series). I have a P2411H (24") and 3xE2011H (20") and the displays are extremely vivid, but also have anti-glare screens :)  They're much better monitors than those consumer level ST monitors, IMO.


Before I get to the cooling, I'm going to preface my answers by saying read the stickies at the top of the Watercooling forum, and then the stickies that they link, and so on. That's how you'll come to understand what you'll need to do what you want.


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I want to OC the cpu to at least 4.3ghz normal with the capacity to OC it to 4.8ghz.

If you get an above average chip, you should be able to hit 4.1 without changing the voltage. 4.8 should be easy as well, but as always there are no promises.

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I may do some slight OC'ing to the GPUs in Crossfire as well.

I'm pretty sure with 2x6970s @ 1920x1080/1200, there will be no need for that. My 6950 2GB plays JC2, Metro 2033 and ArmA 2 above 40 FPS on max detail, max AA, etc.

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I saw good reviews from Skinnee Labs for the Swiftech MCP35X pump

Currently one of the best pumps out there. It'd be worth the money IMHO.


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I also noticed on the swiftech site that they offer a pump built into their radiator if I wanted to combo those two and save space.

I haven't heard anything that would lead me to buy them, and there's no reason when your 35X is pumping 1000 LPH ;) 

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For the CPU heatsink, I was thinking about going with the Swiftech Apogee XT rev2. However, it is a fairly restrictive sink, so I don't want it to kill my flowrates completely.

The EK Supreme HF is also a good CPU block (technically a little better than the XT Rev 2). Skinnee has a good review of the two (in addition to others in the comparison). In general, either would be a good choice.

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For the GPU sink I was thinking about the combo swiftech has at this link http://www.swiftech.com/HD6970-HS.aspx

That'll act as a heatsink for everything but the GPU. You'll need that universal GPU block in the pictures.

I have an EK Nickel/Plexi 6970 full block (purchased used, so I don't think it's as prone to the corrosion issues as the new ones) and it performs really well. DangerDen's 6970 block is supposed to be pretty good from what I've heard as well.

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The Scythe GT 120 mm 1850rpm fans have great reviews and are quiet. Would these work well, both for intake/exhaust fans and for radiator fans?

They are quiet fans, but depending on what delta you want to achieve they may not be the right choice because they don't push as much air as other fans.

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Any suggestions on using this versus buying a seperate res?

Rubix_1011 will probably be on this thread eventually, and he's probably a better guy to ask ;) 

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So my question is this, what is the bare minimum/recommended radiator setup for cooling these components?

Read the stickies posted; you'll need to determine what delta you want to achieve based on the amount of heat you need to dissipate.

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edit: as far as tubing goes, I want to find some that is precolored if I get acrylic sides on my case, or will at least look the color of the LEDs.

That's the easy part. You have tons of options :) 


Finding cases for large internal LC systems can be tough. You'll probably need to mod a standard full tower to get anything more than a 240 + 360 rad system.
There are always options like MountainMods.com; they make custom cases that can be built with multiple rad mounts. They get pricey though :/ 

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July 23, 2011 3:21:53 PM

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Build looks good so far. I'd say you'd fare well with 950W for the OCed system, plus a few hundred watts for the WC system, so the HX1050 or AX1200 should work very well. The HX series usually pumps out a bit more power than it's rated for, but I'm not sure about the 1050 specifically.


I have read that about the 850X, but I knew that would be a bit small. I tried looking up reviews with specs (and specifically oscilloscope measurements) for the 1050X but so far I've come up empty handed. But if it'll be enough power then I'll plan on getting it, and find a review when it comes around to make sure it's as good as the other Corsair PSUs. So do you think it'll be enough, or do you think I'd be better off with the AX1200? That was another one I had looked at and considered as well before you mentioned it.

Quote:
Take a look at Dell's Professional (P series) and Enthusiast (I think that's what it is - E series). I have a P2411H (24" ) and 3xE2011H (20" ) and the displays are extremely vivid, but also have anti-glare screens :)  They're much better monitors than those consumer level ST monitors, IMO.


Thanks for the suggestion! I'll look into both series, and I especially like that anti-glare feature :) 

Quote:
Before I get to the cooling, I'm going to preface my answers by saying read the stickies at the top of the Watercooling forum, and then the stickies that they link, and so on. That's how you'll come to understand what you'll need to do what you want.


I have and do! I love the sticky by Rubix, and I have it bookmarked. It's where I got most of my info so far, between it and the links he provided for skinnee labs. I also just recently came across one of Rubix's post in another forum post about using equivalent to 2x120mm rads for each cpu/gpu you are trying to cool as a general rule. So with a cpu and 2 gpus on one loop, I was thinking I might need to go with 2 triple 120 rads. (My ambient temp is about 26-27C and I'd like to keep Delta-T around 20C, maybe less.)

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I also noticed on the swiftech site that they offer a pump built into their radiator if I wanted to combo those two and save space.


I haven't heard anything that would lead me to buy them, and there's no reason when your 35X is pumping 1000 LPH ;) 


I could be wrong, but I think you thought I meant, would I need both a built in pump on the radiator, and a seperate pump as well. What I mean is, could I get the radiator with the built in pump, and not have to buy them seperately? My only concern would be how well swiftech puts the pump and radiator together. If I got the built in piece, it would save me some money, but I don't want to sacrifice quality over ~$40.

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That'll act as a heatsink for everything but the GPU. You'll need that universal GPU block in the pictures.


Yeah, the combo includes both the heatsink and the GPU block for ~$90, and I'll have to get 2 of those for 2 cards.

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The Scythe GT 120 mm 1850rpm fans have great reviews and are quiet. Would these work well, both for intake/exhaust fans and for radiator fans?


They are quiet fans, but depending on what delta you want to achieve they may not be the right choice because they don't push as much air as other fans.


With the delta-t and ambient temps I listed above, would you recommend them? Or would you make suggestions for other fans? I don't mind getting higher CFM fans if I need to, although I would like to be able to keep it somewhat quiet at the same time.

Quote:
Finding cases for large internal LC systems can be tough. You'll probably need to mod a standard full tower to get anything more than a 240 + 360 rad system.
There are always options like MountainMods.com; they make custom cases that can be built with multiple rad mounts. They get pricey though :/ 


When you say "You'll probably need to mod a standard full tower to get anything more than a 240 + 360 rad system.", do you mean a full tower case would fit BOTH a 240 and 360 rad system? For a delta-T of 20, that sounds like it might be just enough, granted with no extra breathing room. Would that still work with the GPUs OC'd? (If i decide to OC them if I ever get a 2650x1600 res monitor. I wont plan on OCing them for the 1920x1200 based on what you said.)
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a b K Overclocking
July 23, 2011 4:04:53 PM

I'd look at the AX1200 and Antec HCP-1200 as options. I would believe that the 1050W would work. This review is pretty comprehensive: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Corsair/HX1050/

2x360 rads was my gut instinct for your system, but it also depends on the manufacturer/ability and the fans. HWLabs is making some of the best right now, but they are fairly pricey. Swiftech is good cost vs. performance, but isn't always the best. You'll just need to do some reading and figure out exactly what you'd like.

A 10C delta should be fairly easy to achieve (remember, the delta is water temp minus ambient, not component temp).
If you want quiet, you'll want to get rads that are optimized for low speed (i.e. low airflow) fans like the Gentle Typhoons, but most rads should cool well with those fans. Skinnee's rad roundup is a pretty good guide, although the site hasn't been updated in a while :( 

Orangejuice789 is using these fans in his Colorblind build: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
If they really are under 20dBA, they are basically the same as the Gentle Typhoons, but they're over 50% less in price (and readily available!) and push almost exactly the same amount of air.

I think the Swiftech rad + built-in pump is more for a simple liquid system, like the self-contained Corsair CPU cooling systems. I wouldn't bother with them at all really.

Most full towers are designed to fit a 240 rad, and a 360 rad can usually be fit in with some minor drilling and cutting. Placing two separate 360 rads might require an external mount, depending on the case, but something like the Swiftech stackable rads might fit pretty easily. I haven't read up on their cooling capacity though.
Share
July 26, 2011 2:36:42 PM

I think I'll end up going with a 360 and a 240, just to try to fit it in the case. I just want good temperatures, and I think even with a 15 DT I'd be happy, so long as I can find a case that will fit it all. The more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to go with the Antec DF-85, purely from a cooling performance standpoint, but I'll check reviews on it's performance before I do. Thanks for for the replies, and all the good suggestions Boiler. Don't know why I didn't get more input on this, lol.
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July 26, 2011 2:37:06 PM

Best answer selected by JRay.
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a c 324 K Overclocking
July 26, 2011 5:17:13 PM

Hey, what did I miss? :) 

Man, that is a lot of info to read through...
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July 26, 2011 5:43:50 PM

rubix_1011 said:
Hey, what did I miss? :) 

Man, that is a lot of info to read through...


LOL! It really is alot, for just 4 posts. If you read through and see anything you'd like to suggest, feel free. I've decided to go with the MCP35x pump, a separate res, and to try to fit it in whatever case I choose a MCR320-QP and MCR220-QP rad. Couple details I'm not set on, are the mouse because of the difficulty to find a US seller, tubing which I still need to go through the stickies for, and the scythe GT fans again because of the difficulty finding them although i'd like to stick with them because of the quality/quietness.

As for the case, I've been reading reviews as well as internal debates on looks. The Antec df-85 has good cooling, but has some pretty crappy reviews, so I don't think I'll go with it. So if you have a list of good LC cases, I'm all ears. Now, its off to the stickies and forums to continue looking for good cases with reviews. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky and find one I like and will fit both those rads.

Edit: I've been curious as well, are all the online retailers in the stickies link you provide reputable? I would assume so, but that typically goes against my better judgement.

Edit: Last time I swear. I'm all kinds of scatterbrained today. Do you think I should try to use shrouds for those rads? If so, which ones/brands do you suggest?
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a c 324 K Overclocking
July 26, 2011 7:53:23 PM

You can find Swiftech rads that incorporate the MCP35x pump in their Edge series kits and rads - for example: MCP35x pump w/ MCR320 rad. Decent price considering the MCP35x is around $115 alone. I don't agree that the remaining $85 is the MCR320 rad (I have 2 normal MCR320's and they were about $54/each), but you can't really combine these 2 in a normal component setting. You could go this route, or get a res/top for that pump (should fit the same as any DDC/MCP350/355 pump).

Yes, the retailers I provided in my link have all been ones I have purchased from, as well as many others. I likely need to update with a few new ones such as http://www.aquatuning.us/ and Dazmode.com/store

I'm not a big shroud guy; you might see some performance gain with them, but you'll also add bulkiness to the rad/fan combo. Most people don't run them...some do. If you get decent fans, you shouldn't really need shrouds most of the time, unless you are trying every possible solution to squeeze out every degree from your loop.
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July 26, 2011 8:57:10 PM

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I'm not a big shroud guy; you might see some performance gain with them, but you'll also add bulkiness to the rad/fan combo. Most people don't run them...some do. If you get decent fans, you shouldn't really need shrouds most of the time, unless you are trying every possible solution to squeeze out every degree from your loop.


Good to know. I'll refrain from using a shroud; the only reason I had to ask was I had read about the dead zone that the fans produce, but if it's not a big deal, then I need to save the money anyway. I'm already going to be over budget, and I haven't even picked a case yet.

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You can find Swiftech rads that incorporate the MCP35x pump in their Edge series kits and rads - for example: MCP35x pump w/ MCR320 rad. Decent price considering the MCP35x is around $115 alone. I don't agree that the remaining $85 is the MCR320 rad (I have 2 normal MCR320's and they were about $54/each), but you can't really combine these 2 in a normal component setting. You could go this route, or get a res/top for that pump (should fit the same as any DDC/MCP350/355 pump).


Yeah, that's the combo I originally posted about. Didn't know if it would be worth it at the time. I was going to go with the stock pump/top and go ahead and buy one MCR320 and one MCR220 so I could try to fit them internally. Would that work and everything including res fit inside the case?
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a c 324 K Overclocking
July 26, 2011 9:06:53 PM

Not sure why you don't think it's worth it? It might limit your ability to mount those rads internally, since I think adding the pump to the rad changes the dimensions somewhat, but that might be the biggest concern for you.

You might also check into XSPC RS and RX rads; the RX series are much thicker (similar to the Thermochill PA's and others). The RS series performs very similarly to the MCR rads from Swiftech as well as several others.

Have you checked out the following links?

http://skinneelabs.com/radiators/
http://skinneelabs.com/radiators/rad-bench-v1/
http://skinneelabs.com/radiators/rad-bench-v2/

Do you also know what your approximate heat in watts will be for your loop? This will help you determine the best radiators for your planned loop.
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July 26, 2011 10:21:26 PM

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Not sure why you don't think it's worth it? It might limit your ability to mount those rads internally, since I think adding the pump to the rad changes the dimensions somewhat, but that might be the biggest concern for you.

You might also check into XSPC RS and RX rads; the RX series are much thicker (similar to the Thermochill PA's and others). The RS series performs very similarly to the MCR rads from Swiftech as well as several others.

Have you checked out the following links?

http://skinneelabs.com/radiators/
http://skinneelabs.com/radiators/rad-bench-v1/
http://skinneelabs.com/radiators/rad-bench-v2/


I have looked at those links, and I have skinneelabs bookmarked. Per their review, I had picked swiftech for it's range of fan speeds, so I can run the fans at 1850rpm for loads, and turn them down to around 900 at idle. The XSPC RX 360 actually outperformed the MCR320 at lower speeds by a slight margin, but is also about $20 more. I just didnt think it was worth the extra for .3-.5C difference. As for heat load, from what I've read, I can expect the HD 6970 2GB cards to put out about 250-260W apiece, and the CPU OC'd should put out about 140-150W, for a system total of about 750W. I plan to get a case with enough airflow, and possibly a side fan as well, to flow enough air through the system that the ram, NB, ect will stay cool enough from the air moving through the case. That will limit me to trying to mount the radiators on an exit path, like the rear or top of the case so my intake air will stay cool enough to cool those parts.

Unless you advise against it, I would be perfectly happy getting the MCR320/pump combo and an extra MCR220 rad provided it will fit when I pick the case, and provided the cost will be the same or better. The only reason I had thought against it in earlier posts was due to my own negligence at the time, which I found and have corrected. Originally I had been comparing the MCR320-QP with the MCR320 drive. I'm sure they have their similarities, but are in fact not the same radiator and had vastly different prices. This was where part of my confusion had stemmed from.
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a c 324 K Overclocking
July 27, 2011 12:14:11 AM

They use the same radiator design, which will perform about the same. They would have different costs due to the addition of the pump (which you will want to double check before you purchase).

Glad to see you've used Skinnee's data...you won't find any better testing and charts in my opinion. Between Skinnee and Martin, they are well known in most watercooling circles.

As for the XSPC RX360 performance vs. the MCR320 with low speed fans...it's possible, but you'd see a little better performance with med-med/high fans, but like you said, it depends on personal preference. However, if you are wanting to run a quieter system with lower fan speeds, then you made a very smart decision based on lower speed fans, rad potential and overall cost. I am happy with my MCR320's and will likely keep them for any future builds unless I find something new and shiny to spend money on.

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July 27, 2011 8:15:46 AM

Oh, I forgot to mention in my previous post; I have planned to keep the stock top the MCP35X comes with, as in skinnee's pump comparisons, the stock top still outperformed all the other pumps, and only the performance gain over stock was using the EK DDC X-Top V2 aftermarket top. Because the stock top was only slightly behind the EK top, I was going to stick with stock, in the rare event that something happened to the pump and it needed to be warrantied. (plus I won't have to shell out extra for the other top, which is good because I'm already over budget.)
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a c 324 K Overclocking
July 27, 2011 1:37:33 PM

Yeah, the stock 35x top is designed specifically by Swiftech to perform the way it does. Remember, Swiftech is the only company that actually makes the MCP35x (as a model, but still re-brands from Laing as Swiftech as MCP350/355) similar to others like Koolance to use the Laing DDC pumps and re-brand as their own (PMP-400 for Koolance).

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