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GIGABYTE GA-790FXTA-UD5 vs MSI 790FX GD70 for a noob first build?

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January 8, 2010 1:18:30 PM

Hey everyone,

My name's Mike. First time here on the forums.

I'm building my first PC and (through exhausting research) had my mind set on the MSI 790FX GD70 for what will be a 965 C3 125W.

Seems pretty good, then I saw the GIGABYTE GA-790FXTA-UD5.

I'm new to system building and completely new to the actions and vocabulary of overclocking and with this system build I'd like to learn more about it.

That being said, I want to build a system better geared toward the future and the Gigabyte has USB 3.0 and SATA 6gbps.

Is this worth it? I understand the bottom line of these new technologies is faster data transfer, but is there a lot of support for it?

The rig will be used for gaming, CS4, and general use. I will be putting in a 4890 to start with the intention of putting another later on. I doubt I would EVER use the quad-crossfire benefit of the MSI.

So which one should I go for, and why?

Thanks friends, for the help and advice.

Mike
a c 156 V Motherboard
January 9, 2010 2:42:33 PM

I happen to prefer Gigabyte motherboards. And for an additional discriminator, there's certainly nothing wrong with faster i/o. :) 

My question to you is why the 4890 and not one of the 5850 or 5770's?
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January 9, 2010 3:07:24 PM

jsc said:
I happen to prefer Gigabyte motherboards. And for an additional discriminator, there's certainly nothing wrong with faster i/o. :) 

My question to you is why the 4890 and not one of the 5850 or 5770's?


Haha thanks for the reply (I thought no one was going to answer). Quite simply, the 4890's cheaper. And it gets great reviews. But the most popular feedback I get is that which you have asked....why not a 5850? I'm beginning to ask myself and may very well just go that route. So you say the Gigabyte board? I know the MSI is "battle proven" and the Gigabyte is fairly new....
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a b V Motherboard
January 9, 2010 7:59:29 PM

Sorry, where was this battle? You picked the right board (gig)
Tough call on the video card, $200 for the 4890 Execl performance, but high electric.
The 5850 is over $300 but cheaper on Electric, you can recoup half the difference in price in a year, also has a lot of overclock room but then there goes the electric.
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January 10, 2010 12:39:12 AM

roonj said:
Sorry, where was this battle? You picked the right board (gig)
Tough call on the video card, $200 for the 4890 Execl performance, but high electric.
The 5850 is over $300 but cheaper on Electric, you can recoup half the difference in price in a year, also has a lot of overclock room but then there goes the electric.


Go with the Gigabyte? Sounds good but if you'd be so kind as to indulge me...please tell me why. I want to be 100% rock solid on this decision and I've read a ton on the MSI, but very little on the Gigabyte. What would be the reason to go Gigabyte?
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a b V Motherboard
January 14, 2010 8:00:45 PM

go with the msi, it's $20 cheaper, it has an extra PCIE, quad crossfire at x8 or dual x16, faster memory( gigabyte up to 1866mhz, msi up to 2133mhz) and GREAT overclocking features.

everything else is pretty much the same

about the sata3, let me tell you that not even the fastest of SSDs can reach the ful potential of sata2, they're actually far away from that, same with usb 2.0.

it's just like the graphics cards, you can use a 5870 on a PCIE 1.1 (being used since 2004) and get 1-2% difference from PCIE 2.0, so you can actually run the latest graphics on an old PCIE 1.1 motherboard without any slowdowns at all.
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January 15, 2010 2:25:08 PM

based on spec and features, the msi mobo would be better coz it has more pcie slots and can support upto quad crossfire. but, based on physical appearance, gigabyte looks much better... maybe we dont have to judge the physical appearance here, do we?
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a c 156 V Motherboard
January 15, 2010 5:23:56 PM

captvizcenzo said:
... maybe we dont have to judge the physical appearance here, do we?

I don't.
Gigabyte has been around for quite a while. I remember seeing Gigabyte motherboards in the late '90's.
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Best solution

January 18, 2010 6:29:19 PM

Hi Mike,
I first built my new system with The MSI 790FX GD70. It ran well for one night. Then at a mild attempt to overclock it to 3.6 ghz (200x18 instead of 200x17) it locked up and I could not get it to clear the cmos to reboot. The onboard code leds gave no indication of a POST failure code. The power would come on for a brief moment then shut down as if no power good signal was sent by the processor. I thought I had fried my new Phenom cpu. Was gonna rma the AMD chip then I ordered the the Gigabyte board. When it arrived I put the AMD cpu in it and built the rest of the computer. It has been working fine since. I rma'd the MSI board with newegg. I purchased the Gigabyte GA-790FXTA-UD5 because of it's dual bios. I like this board better.
Everything works great on it. I have locked it up trying different overclocks, but I can easily clear the cmos back to safer settings. I am running G Skill ram with 4 x 2gig modules for a total of 8 gigs at 1600mhz.
The only con I have with the GA-790FXTA-UD5 is that the two main PCIE slots are a little too close together for the 2 Sapphire 4850 X2's I am running (I went with these so I can run 8 monitors for my Cakewalk Sonar recording studio software). The VRM heat sink on one GPU board touches the fan shield on the other board. Livable. You can still run up to 3 ATI graphics cards with the Gigabyte motherboard it is just that the primary and secondary PCIe slots don't leave a lot of spare room for today's thick 2+ slot wide graphics monsters. The second PCIe slot shares bandwidth with the third slot, so with two cards it's at 16 & 16 or 3 cards at 16 & 8 & 8.

Newegg returned me a new MSI board that just sits in it's box. It has a nice layout but the inability to clear the cmos and reboot is it's undoing. It's features seem good in theory but poorly implemented in real world tests. It's probably not a bad board for those happy just to run stock speeds. Yet even then the idea of an unrecoverable system lockup scares me.

The GA-790FXTA-UD5 has better audio, better hard drive choices and 3 Texas Instrument driven 1394-A firewire ports. Anyone who uses firewire knows that TI makes the best 1394 i/o. Not to mention tons of USB ports including USB 3.0. And a better manual. The Gigabyte board also has better power phasing. And a 1x PCIe slot free no matter what graphics cards you put in it. Just in case you want even better audio or an 8 port RAID board.
In that regard the GA-790FXTA-UD5 is much more future proof. It's features are implemented well and has better customer support. Oh, and it works. The $20 difference is not a savings if you have a $163 paper weight, even if it does look pretty.

Having tried both motherboards I feel that the Gigabyte board is a much better choice. I am also running the 125w 965 Phenom II X4 stable @ 3.6 ghz on air, with a Kingwin 1220 watt PS.
My config:
Giabyte GA-790FXTA-UD5 main board
AMD Phenom II x4 965 C3 125w cpu
ASUS Lions Square cpu cooler
(2) G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL
iStar 4 unit rack mount case.
(2) Sapphire HD4850 X2 Graphics Cards
AMS DS-2131SSBK Steel / Aluminum 3.5" SATA 3-IN-2 SATA Module
Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive
And 2 older 320 gig WD hard drives from the last computer I blew up
Kingwin 1220 watt modular power supply.
OS- Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64bit (skipped Vista, was a long time XP-Pro user... Win 7 rocks!)

I hope this is helpful in your choice of motherboards,
Sincerely,
Tim Cooper
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January 18, 2010 7:21:48 PM

Also, I am running quad Crossfire X using the two Dual GPU cards.
If you will only need the two PCIE slots to run any two ATI-based cards then the MSI board offers no advantages whatsoever, except that the primary and secondary pcie slots are a little further apart.

Tim
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January 18, 2010 7:27:04 PM

And Newegg has a money back rma on the Gigabyte board (at least when I bought it) and the MSI is replacement only. I wonder why that is?

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a b V Motherboard
January 18, 2010 10:53:18 PM

To tnc777, thankyou personnaly I would never take the time to provide that much information to defend a decision to someone who asks a quesition and then expects me to defend it. I assume the person asking doesn't know- why shouldn't I jump into the river of fire? nevermnd go ahead jump in.
Cudo's to you tnc777, that's some fine! homework.
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January 19, 2010 1:39:32 AM

You are welcome roonj.
And thank you for the kind remarks.

Tim
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January 19, 2010 2:21:46 PM

tnc777 said:
Hi Mike,
I first built my new system with The MSI 790FX GD70. It ran well for one night. Then at a mild attempt to overclock it to 3.6 ghz (200x18 instead of 200x17) it locked up and I could not get it to clear the cmos to reboot. The onboard code leds gave no indication of a POST failure code. The power would come on for a brief moment then shut down as if no power good signal was sent by the processor. I thought I had fried my new Phenom cpu. Was gonna rma the AMD chip then I ordered the the Gigabyte board. When it arrived I put the AMD cpu in it and built the rest of the computer. It has been working fine since. I rma'd the MSI board with newegg. I purchased the Gigabyte GA-790FXTA-UD5 because of it's dual bios. I like this board better.
Everything works great on it. I have locked it up trying different overclocks, but I can easily clear the cmos back to safer settings. I am running G Skill ram with 4 x 2gig modules for a total of 8 gigs at 1600mhz.
The only con I have with the GA-790FXTA-UD5 is that the two main PCIE slots are a little too close together for the 2 Sapphire 4850 X2's I am running (I went with these so I can run 8 monitors for my Cakewalk Sonar recording studio software). The VRM heat sink on one GPU board touches the fan shield on the other board. Livable. You can still run up to 3 ATI graphics cards with the Gigabyte motherboard it is just that the primary and secondary PCIe slots don't leave a lot of spare room for today's thick 2+ slot wide graphics monsters. The second PCIe slot shares bandwidth with the third slot, so with two cards it's at 16 & 16 or 3 cards at 16 & 8 & 8.

Newegg returned me a new MSI board that just sits in it's box. It has a nice layout but the inability to clear the cmos and reboot is it's undoing. It's features seem good in theory but poorly implemented in real world tests. It's probably not a bad board for those happy just to run stock speeds. Yet even then the idea of an unrecoverable system lockup scares me.

The GA-790FXTA-UD5 has better audio, better hard drive choices and 3 Texas Instrument driven 1394-A firewire ports. Anyone who uses firewire knows that TI makes the best 1394 i/o. Not to mention tons of USB ports including USB 3.0. And a better manual. The Gigabyte board also has better power phasing. And a 1x PCIe slot free no matter what graphics cards you put in it. Just in case you want even better audio or an 8 port RAID board.
In that regard the GA-790FXTA-UD5 is much more future proof. It's features are implemented well and has better customer support. Oh, and it works. The $20 difference is not a savings if you have a $163 paper weight, even if it does look pretty.

Having tried both motherboards I feel that the Gigabyte board is a much better choice. I am also running the 125w 965 Phenom II X4 stable @ 3.6 ghz on air, with a Kingwin 1220 watt PS.
My config:
Giabyte GA-790FXTA-UD5 main board
AMD Phenom II x4 965 C3 125w cpu
ASUS Lions Square cpu cooler
(2) G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL
iStar 4 unit rack mount case.
(2) Sapphire HD4850 X2 Graphics Cards
AMS DS-2131SSBK Steel / Aluminum 3.5" SATA 3-IN-2 SATA Module
Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive
And 2 older 320 gig WD hard drives from the last computer I blew up
Kingwin 1220 watt modular power supply.
OS- Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64bit (skipped Vista, was a long time XP-Pro user... Win 7 rocks!)

I hope this is helpful in your choice of motherboards,
Sincerely,
Tim Cooper


Tim,

What a wonderful, thorough, and fully informative answer. I thank you very much for taking the time, and you're EXACTLY the man I'd like to speak to about this since you have experience with both boards.

Here's my situation:

This is my first build. I want to use this rig for gaming (I like to max things out), CS4 (lots of pics and videos of the kids), and to learn how to overclock. Budget-wise, I'm not trying to build a "budget" pc and go cheap, but I don't have a load of expendable cash either. I'd rather spend a little extra and get mid-high end stuff now and be good for a while.

Ok, regarding the overclocking thing...I know nothing about it. I know what I've read in forums, and I understand the VERY general concepts behind it, but I have no experience with it whatsoever and I've never overclocked anything in my life. In fact, if someone were to ask me "why do you want to overclock your cpu and gpu and ram?" my response would have to be "uhh...because it's cool and I want to see if I can?" I doubt that the reason many people overclock is because their rig can't handle a certain application(s) at stock speeds (I could be wrong, sorry if I am) and they NEED to "fix" it. It looks to me like it's a fun, detail-oriented and technical hobby that exercises the mind and produces benchmark and performance results that are fun to compare and brag about with other who have similar interests and are impressed by such things. This is why I want to overclock my system. It looks fun and I just want to know how.

That being said, I've read that the MSI board is great for a budding overclocker. In fact, it looks like it's designed for it. To make a gross oversimplification, you turn something up (voltage? I'm not sure) and the CPU runs faster, gets hotter, and you have to cool it a bit. But it sounds like you turned up your MSI just a little bit and the board screwed itself up. That scares me. If this is a board that's designed to be overclocked for the "enthusiast" (as the website states) and you tweaked it up a tiny bit and the board blew that just doesn't sound right to me.

Is overclocking this...sensitive? Or was it just a bad board? I keep reading about the "4.0ghz" club and that many people are running their CPUs (965s especially) at this speed (for what reason I don't know, again I imagine it's fun and I want in!). But do I really run a high risk of damaging my components?

I want my new build to last a good, long time (= at least 2-3 years) and I'm sure that for what I'm using it for stock speeds would be more than adequate. But overclocking sounds fun and I'd like to learn more about about it, but not at the expense of blown components. I'm not that hardcore.

You no doubt have me sold on the Gigabyte board. That was one of the best answers I've ever received about any subject in my entire life. But I'm now wondering if this board (Gigabyte) has a margin for error or would be accessible to a guy just trying to learn this stuff. It's really expensive and I don't want to settle in all happy with my cup of coffee, mutter to myself "ok, here we go!", turn up the voltage (if that's what you do....), and fry the board and smell electrical death. Would the Gigabyte be nice to learn on? You've already said that it's more future-proof, but is it packed with things I'll never use? Or (I don't like saying "overkill" because to me there's no such thing as "overkill)...is it overkill?

Clearly you know much more about this than I do, and I bow down to your knowledge. I don't want to take advantage of your help, but I'd appreciate any further advice you can offer me about this since you've experienced exactly what I would like to soon.

Thanks again, Tim. I look forward to speaking with you more.


Best regards,

Mike Mirzai
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January 19, 2010 2:42:05 PM

roonj said:
To tnc777, thankyou personnaly I would never take the time to provide that much information to defend a decision to someone who asks a quesition and then expects me to defend it. I assume the person asking doesn't know- why shouldn't I jump into the river of fire? nevermnd go ahead jump in.
Cudo's to you tnc777, that's some fine! homework.


Hey roonj,

I wasn't asking you to "defend" anything nor am I "expecting" anything from you. It was a conversation-starter on a computer parts forum and I was simply seeking rationale from those more experienced than I. I like reason and rationale when spending my money so that way I'm firm in my decision and have the knowledge to support it beyond simply "liking" a company. What's wrong with that approach? Answering questions on here is purely optional and what tnc777 did was very kind and it helps me out a lot. I don't assume to have the level of knowledge that you or the vast majority of people on these forums have and your assumption that I "don't know" is 100% accurate, that's why I posted a question in the forum. I appreciated your answer very much and was looking forward to continuing the conversation with you about it, but clearly you took offense to my request for more information about the Gigabyte. Sorry about that. If it's too much for you please feel free to ignore the thread and don't stress yourself out with "expectations" and "defense" and "rivers of FIRE!". Relax dude.
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January 19, 2010 11:06:44 PM

Hello again Mike.
You will be pleased with the way the AMD 965 Phenom II C3 runs stock. The only reason I bumped up the clock speed on my setup is to see where the Dual graphics cards work best with the cpu and to stress test the system. I have returned all components back to their stock speeds. First to save power and second to avoid undo stress on an already fast computer.
I do intent to overclock it to it's potential when I have all the parts needed to liquid cool the entire system. Stable on air is too prone to variances in ambient room temperature and relative humidity to reliably set a running speed. And air cooled system can get loud when the fans are called on to push air. Noise is not a good thing for a recording studio computer.
In actual game play the graphics card (s) you choose to install will have more to do with the quality of game play than anything you do to overclock the cpu and ram.
If you plan to do a lot of photo and video work then max your board with as much ram as you can afford and get large fast hard drives.
I am running two sapphire HD4850 X2's because they sport 4 dual link DVI + 1 HDTV out per card.
With the music software I use more screens mean easier work flow.
What is CS4?
The reason why enthusiasts overclock mainly is to prove to themselves they can do it and it is the only sport us geeks or wanna be computer nerds can excel in compared to normal people.
I'm not really a geek, I'm a dork. I often make tragic, stupid mistakes putting computers together (that cost me time and money). I don't know or claim to know everything and no one has to pay me to share what I have learned. I could care less if the guy at the other end of a chat clocks his cpu 200mhz higher than mine. But I'm glad he inspired me to push my computer one step further and has proven that it can be done.
That is one of the things that make this fun.
I have been building my own computers since 1989. Why?
1) because mainstream computer companies don't build them like I want them.
2) It is so less expensive to build it yourself.
3) It is not that freaking hard.
4) It is fun.

My last note was to help you decide which board to get.
I buy things from wholesalers and as a customer I get the occasional DOA goose egg. To don't put much faith in website reviews of components because I am reasonably sure the manufactures thorough test out their product before shipping one for a shootout.
The MSI board has one major failing that is now documented on Neweggs reviews.
It crapped out when loaded. And I had real difficulty recovering from it. I wanted this board to work and it did show promise. It looked so cool behind the plexiglass cover to my rack mount case. (LED's are so cool!)
The Gigabyte GA-790FXTA-UD5 wasn't even out when I started to save for this system. But after giving MSI it's chance I went with a more proven manufacture and features that insure longevity and reliability. The Gigabyte board has a sexiness to it too, it's just not as lit up.
I used to only buy ASUS. But they don't seem as interested in building feature rich boards for AMD lovers like me and focus there premier line to the intel crowd.
The motherboard I had before this system was the original Crosshair with a 2 core Athlon 6000+ cpu in it. Had it for 2 years till one of the VRMs blew out. And that was my fault for allowing it to run for weeks with the 8 pin power connector loose.
So it is my experience that better power phasing helps longivity of the motherboard. Compare the power phasing between the MSI and Gigabyte board and you will see the MSI lacking in this area as well as many others.
If you even think about overclocking you want a board that will recover from a failed attempt. This leaves the MSI 790FX-GD70 out of the picture.
Wait one year from now and you will start to see how this board crapped out on so many who where thrilled when they first posted 4.0 ghz on it.
You can mark my words on that. Gigabytes dual bios has proven to me very quickly what a valuable feature having a corruption proof second bios is. All high end boards should have this feature.
To sum up:
1) Dual Bios (I cannot possible stress how incredibly valuable this is!)
2) 8 + 2 phase power management- ditto to the above.
3) Marvel SATA III 6gbs ports (2)- so, where are 6gbs storage devices?
4) USB 3.0 - so, where are usb 3.0 devices?
5) Texas Instruments driven 1394a firewire ports (3) If any of your camcorders use firewire this is vital! My music hardware does.
6) Better customer support-They actual treat you as human.
7) 3 year warranty
8) Better audio- including Dolby Home Theater
9) An easier and better laid out bios. (In my view)
10) It works! And it still does the next morning!
If this motherboard was available when I ordered my system this forum topic would not even exist...
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
With all that said, it it my "opinion" that the Gigabyte GA-790FXTA-UD5 is currently the top, most full featured, most reliable and best AM3 socket motherboard available for my purposes at this time.<conclusion>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
I don't personally know anyone who has put 4 individual high end graphics cards on a mainboard, but I do know why I put two medium range dual gpu cards in mine. 8 dual link DVI ports + 2 HDTV outs is sweet!
Decide on what you really want the computer to do and make that the priority upon which it is built upon.
What do you want it to do?
Every four months or so a new king of the graphics cards claims its temporary throne and waits for it's ass to get kicked. Same for motherboards, ram, etc.
I often save a ton of money just waiting a few weeks for something that will work just fine for me. In any case, what ever parts I buy, something better comes out a month later anyway. So I end up kicking myself for not waiting a little longer.
If I wanted the ultimate end all, kill them all screaming demon of a computer, I would be chasing the Intel crowd and spending what would amount to a second mortgage doing it.
But I am an AMD fan and always will be because they give me bang for the buck and they work.
Do you realize that I bought a motherboard, a cpu and two dual gpu graphics cards for less than the top Intel i7 chip?
I don't lose any sleep because my neighbor clocks 5 more frames per second than I do.
Have fun with your build and don't take any feed back here or on these boards personally. We are all just people trying to get the most from our hobby and sometimes this endeavor is frustrating. I don't think roonj was dissing you, it just gets old after awhile on these forums having to explain your experience with products to people who sometimes just want to find someone to back an answer they seem to have already their mind made up on. A few months from now you will know where I'm coming from and where roonj was only trying to be helpful. Keep an open mind and be grateful that people take the time to share a point of view.

Good luck,
Tim
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a b V Motherboard
January 20, 2010 8:38:03 PM

wow, you gotta have a lot of free time for typing all that just for a reply on a forum...
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January 20, 2010 8:44:46 PM

Actually I'm @ work and my boss would kill me if she knew I was answering forum questions on her time. :-D
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January 26, 2010 1:35:06 PM

Best answer selected by mirzai_m.
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January 26, 2010 1:37:25 PM

tnc777 said:
Actually I'm @ work and my boss would kill me if she knew I was answering forum questions on her time. :-D


Thanks again Tim. You've been a great help. Stay in touch!
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May 28, 2010 9:35:40 PM

Thread revival here.

I have two dual video cards in my system. I added a third. It doesnt recognize the third card. I changed cards. Still notta. Thought maybe slot was bad. Moved cards around, all slots work, system just wont recognize three. All three cards work individually.

I really need six monitors (its for daytrading). Is there something I have to change in the bios or can you just not have three dual monitor cards on this motherboard?

i understand slot 2 and 3 share bandwidth.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

Tuck

GA-790FXTA-UD5
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May 28, 2010 10:35:23 PM

I was msitaken. Its actually the PCI x8 slot that doesnt recognize ANY video card. whether i have one, two or three cards in PC, the last slot, 3, is never recognized. That wouldnt be because its a video card would it? That makes no sense.

My guess is I have a bad slsot? Possible? Any other way to check it?

Thanks!
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August 9, 2010 6:18:25 PM

Im still not able to use three video cards, Anyone have any ideas? I have six monitors and cant use but four. Board only recognizes 2 of the three cards. All cards are good as I can plug monitors into any of them and they work, just not all three at once. Bios setting? Defect board? I am guessing bad motherboard as the third slot doesnt recognize any of the three cards I put in it.

Any help is very appreciated!

Thanks.
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a b V Motherboard
August 9, 2010 6:52:33 PM

the slots are fine, maybe your PSU can't take the additional power draw. Give us some details about your rig.
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August 9, 2010 7:21:45 PM

Thanks! I build a rack mount pc. Im sure the power supply is fine. Its a Corsair 750 watt, I have 8 mb of ram. The video cards are NVIDO GeFOrce 9500 GT's.

Is there any other info I can provide? I dont think there is any other wires I need to hook up to power that third slot thats not recognizing my video cards, is there?

REALLY appriciate your input. Im dying here with 6 screens and only being able to use four!
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a b V Motherboard
August 9, 2010 8:54:30 PM

Unfortunately I have no experience with multiple monitor setups. From the top of my head do you use the same drivers for those video cards?
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August 10, 2010 2:51:59 AM

Yes sir, same drivers. They all work. just not slot three.
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a b V Motherboard
August 10, 2010 4:43:19 PM

9500gt doesnt support 3way sli
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August 11, 2010 2:56:54 AM

I have no idea what three way sli is, but will look it up. Just want six monitors, lol. searching now,,,,,
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August 11, 2010 12:57:28 PM

Thanks Mosox! I, too, dont think I need SLI. WIll check out those two sites.
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a b V Motherboard
November 7, 2010 10:28:03 AM

This topic has been closed by Mousemonkey
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