Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Which is better for gaming i5 or i7?

Last response: in CPUs
Share
October 21, 2009 6:29:59 PM

My son wants a gaming computer for Christmas, but he and the wife don't believe I can build it. This is really new to me and kinda confusing, so if someone could point me in the right direction along with a motherboard that would be great.
Thanks

More about : gaming

October 21, 2009 6:40:25 PM

firs of all , i7 is the best CPU family not only for gaming , for every kind of action
for assembling system you should estimate the price and chose the CPU platform
October 21, 2009 8:04:14 PM

Ok well this is where I am heading.....if I am making a mistake please point it out for me

NZXT Nemesis Elite Gaming Case - Black

Intel DP55KG Motherboard

Intel Core i5-750 Lynnfield 2.66GHz 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 95W Quad-Core

CORSAIR XMS3 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model CMX4GX3M2A1600C9

Rosewill Green Series RG530-2 530W Continuous @40°C, 80 PLUS Certified,ATX12V v2.3 & EPS12V v2.91, SLI Ready,CrossFire Ready,Active PFC "Compatible with Core i7, i5" Power Supply

Western Digital Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive

Sony Optiarc Black 24X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 12X DVD+R DL 24X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 2MB Cache SATA DVD Burner with LightScribe LightScribe Support

EVGA 01G-P3-1155-TR GeForce GTS 250 1GB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card

Related resources
October 21, 2009 8:31:17 PM

looks good so far, but I'd change a couple of things. the gfx card gts 250 is quite weak compared to GTX 260 and not really that much cheaper ~ $60. It's basically a repackaged 9800gtx which is basically a repackaged 8800gts. Nvidia managed to run the same card through 3 different generations without much improvement. 128 stream processors. The GTX has 216.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

+1 for getting the i5. Hyperthreading doesn't do much (if any) for gaming.

I'd also look at an asus motherboard. I've had good luck with them (really from best to least IMO ABIT, ASUS, GIGABYTE, BIOSTAR/ASROCK). Far too often intel limits the overclocking abilities of boards for obvious reasons.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Power supply is fine, but I'd recommend getting no less than a 650W supply since gfx cards are going to continue to pull more and more power. If you only plan to use 1 gfx card at a time, this should be plenty... Rosewill is good, but corsair is the best IMO.

1 thing to keep in mind with memory on i7 ( I assume i5 also) don't go above 1.65V for vDIMM.

GL
October 21, 2009 9:06:38 PM

Thanks for the great advice. I assume with the ASUS motherboard I will need to add a sound card?
October 21, 2009 10:11:50 PM

No, the sound card should be built in to almost every motherboard you'll find. You can upgrade it, but I think the money would be better spent just about anywhere else.

If you're getting DDR3 RAM you should at least use the triple channel. You need either 3GB, 6GB, or 12GB to use this. 3GB or 6GB would be fine for most games. You should also remember that you need a 64-bit operating system to use more than ~3.5GB of RAM.
October 21, 2009 10:34:45 PM

If you are new to this, are you aware of electrostatic discharage? This is important because you can destroy these expensive components with static electricity that builds up on your body, and you need to be grounded. This can be done with an anti static wrist strap.
October 21, 2009 10:36:25 PM

Also, if gaming is the only purpose of the pc, you might want to look into AMD processors because they generally offer the same gaming performance for less.
October 21, 2009 10:54:54 PM

Don't worry about static charges - I've built around 150 systems and never had a single RMA. These were built without wrist straps or any other voodoo contrapments.

As long as you don't moonwalk across your nylon carpet while dressed in plastic bags before assembling the computer you should be safe :) 
a c 87 à CPUs
a b 4 Gaming
October 21, 2009 11:39:19 PM

Not sure about that particular PSU, but they don't make the best. Rosewill is known for making junk. Get a real PSU, Antec, Corsair, Enermax, PCP&C, and Seasonic are the first companies you'll want to look to. Anything from these companies modern lines are good. For your setup you don't need 750W, anything 500W+ will be fine.

I'm also not sure what Endif was talking about. You listed "CORSAIR XMS3 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600", and he wants you to buy DDR3-1600? The ram you listed looks fine (assuming it runs 1.65V or less) and is the proper number of sticks. I'm not saying his ram isn't better, I'm just not sure what he's complaining about.

I to wouldn't get the Intel board. They aren't known for their overclocking abilities. While i7 might be the king of CPUs,for most of us they aren't worth the extra cost. Cost that could have been used on a better video card.
a c 344 à CPUs
a b 4 Gaming
October 22, 2009 12:04:05 AM

insavannah said:
Ok well this is where I am heading.....if I am making a mistake please point it out for me

NZXT Nemesis Elite Gaming Case - Black

Intel DP55KG Motherboard

Intel Core i5-750 Lynnfield 2.66GHz 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 95W Quad-Core

CORSAIR XMS3 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model CMX4GX3M2A1600C9

Rosewill Green Series RG530-2 530W Continuous @40°C, 80 PLUS Certified,ATX12V v2.3 & EPS12V v2.91, SLI Ready,CrossFire Ready,Active PFC "Compatible with Core i7, i5" Power Supply

Western Digital Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive

Sony Optiarc Black 24X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 12X DVD+R DL 24X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 2MB Cache SATA DVD Burner with LightScribe LightScribe Support

EVGA 01G-P3-1155-TR GeForce GTS 250 1GB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card

Personally, I think that case is ugly as sin. But... tastes differ, and a kid might like it. Do you need a case that is portable, like for a lan party? Otherwise, I might pick the Antec 300 illusion model which would cost less:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

For gaming, the video card is all important, more so than the cpu, and a GTS250 is not that strong by today's standards. See if you can't include a 5850. They seem to be in short supply, so look around.

There are good PSU's from corsair, seasonic, antec, and PC P&C. Pick one with two 6 pin pci-e connectors, and it will power a 5850 well. How about the corsair 550vx?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

There are good prices for Windows-7 for students. Look into that. Look at the home premium 64 bit edition.

Download and read the case and motherboard manuals first. You will get a good idea of what to do.
October 22, 2009 2:45:11 PM

4745454b said:
Not sure about that particular PSU, but they don't make the best. Rosewill is known for making junk. Get a real PSU, Antec, Corsair, Enermax, PCP&C, and Seasonic are the first companies you'll want to look to. Anything from these companies modern lines are good. For your setup you don't need 750W, anything 500W+ will be fine.

I'm also not sure what Endif was talking about. You listed "CORSAIR XMS3 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600", and he wants you to buy DDR3-1600? The ram you listed looks fine (assuming it runs 1.65V or less) and is the proper number of sticks. I'm not saying his ram isn't better, I'm just not sure what he's complaining about.

I to wouldn't get the Intel board. They aren't known for their overclocking abilities. While i7 might be the king of CPUs,for most of us they aren't worth the extra cost. Cost that could have been used on a better video card.



If you take a look at the motherboard he first listed it only supports DDR2. He will want a mobo that supports DDR3. The ram he chose was fine but the motherboard wouldn't support it.
a c 87 à CPUs
a b 4 Gaming
October 22, 2009 4:46:02 PM

First, none of his posts have been edited. Second, the motherboard he wants is a P55 board that goes with his i5 CPU. They only accept DDR3 memory, as thats what the i5 supports. I didn't understand your first post, and this one makes even less sense.
a b à CPUs
October 22, 2009 6:38:26 PM

Dougx1317 said:
No, the sound card should be built in to almost every motherboard you'll find. You can upgrade it, but I think the money would be better spent just about anywhere else.

If you're getting DDR3 RAM you should at least use the triple channel. You need either 3GB, 6GB, or 12GB to use this. 3GB or 6GB would be fine for most games. You should also remember that you need a 64-bit operating system to use more than ~3.5GB of RAM.


P55 boards do not support tripple channel so as long as he gets 4GB of DDR3 he should be fine. Most people don't need more than 4Gb unless you work with apps that utilize more than that.

Another thing that I would suggest is stay away from Intel boards, Get an Asus, Gigabyte, Asrock or Evga board. That particular Intel board is overpriced, for that amount of money you can get this :

EVGA P55 SLI 132-LF-E655-KR LGA1156 Intel P55 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

or

ASUS P7P55D EVO LGA 1156 Intel P55 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

hope this helps....

on a side note, the GTS 250/GTX 260 or 4850/4870 should be more than enough for your son's gaming needs unless he is trying to play at the highest resolution with everything maxed out.
October 22, 2009 6:53:42 PM

4745454b said:
First, none of his posts have been edited. Second, the motherboard he wants is a P55 board that goes with his i5 CPU. They only accept DDR3 memory, as thats what the i5 supports. I didn't understand your first post, and this one makes even less sense.



Your right. I went back to check on the specs. I has a few mobo's pulled up at the time that I was showing a friend and I must have been looking at the wrong one lol. Sorry for the confusion. Ignore my post please.
October 22, 2009 8:03:16 PM

This is gonna be alittle left feild, but there is a serious problem with the i5/7 route, and that is that the PCIe goes through the bus on the 1156. This restricts the PCIe making x16 x16 impossible, and in a dual GPU the whole system runs at the slower speed (except on the Hydra platform, but thats not out yet). Also DDR3 is unessisaraly expensive. I personally reccomend an ASUS Striker II with a core 2 quad, and a GTX 275 or 280. It won't be that biggest system on the planet, but it won't run you the better end of four figures either. On a side note, check out cyberpowerpc.com. Its like Alienware, but without the $400 cases, and 150% markup on parts. Try the Novant Falcon site too, if nothing else you can configure a machine, the buy the parts and assemble it yourself. Don't settle for the stock HSF.

Hope this helps.

http://usa.asus.com/ProductGroup2.aspx?PG_ID=mKyCKlQ4oS...

P.S. ASUS motherboard, EVGA graphics.
a b à CPUs
October 22, 2009 8:31:36 PM

azconnie said:
This is gonna be alittle left feild, but there is a serious problem with the i5/7 route, and that is that the PCIe goes through the bus on the 1156. This restricts the PCIe making x16 x16 impossible, and in a dual GPU the whole system runs at the slower speed (except on the Hydra platform, but thats not out yet). Also DDR3 is unessisaraly expensive. I personally reccomend an ASUS Striker II with a core 2 quad, and a GTX 275 or 280. It won't be that biggest system on the planet, but it won't run you the better end of four figures either. On a side note, check out cyberpowerpc.com. Its like Alienware, but without the $400 cases, and 150% markup on parts. Try the Novant Falcon site too, if nothing else you can configure a machine, the buy the parts and assemble it yourself. Don't settle for the stock HSF.

Hope this helps.

http://usa.asus.com/ProductGroup2.aspx?PG_ID=mKyCKlQ4oS...

P.S. ASUS motherboard, EVGA graphics.


The performance hit on the P55 using dual GPU's is around 6-7 percent so there is nothing to worry about or at least IMO I would not worry since that is minimal. Of course that normally means that if you DO NOT want to experience that 7% loss then you would opt for a massive GPU like the 5850 or 5870. The P45 platform that you suggested is ridiculous since LGA 775 is a dead end sooner than later. At this point it would be a waste of money to invest in anything that has to do with LGA 775. It's either P55 or AM3...
October 22, 2009 9:34:30 PM

OvrClkr said:
The performance hit on the P55 using dual GPU's is around 6-7 percent so there is nothing to worry about or at least IMO I would not worry since that is minimal. Of course that normally means that if you DO NOT want to experience that 7% loss then you would opt for a massive GPU like the 5850 or 5870. The P45 platform that you suggested is ridiculous since LGA 775 is a dead end sooner than later. At this point it would be a waste of money to invest in anything that has to do with LGA 775. It's either P55 or AM3...


Well, thats why I included the configurer sites. I don't mean to flame anyone, and aren't trying to get flamed myself, but lets face it, how many programs actually topout a 775 system? You can build a 50FPS Crysis rig on 775 for less than a 30FPS 1156 system. Im not trying to hijack the thread with the idea of "ole' relyable," just trying to expand options and save this first timer some money. 775 is in a sweet spot now by my measurements, new enough to be good, old enough to be cheap.

Also the Striker 2 is an Nvidia 790i, not a P45. Although seing as the only real difference between 780i and 790i is a PCIe slot, maybe the Striker II Formula would be better suited. Save some money too.
a b à CPUs
October 22, 2009 10:03:50 PM

Well just to let you know, since the AM3 and P55 platform came out there is no reason to waste money on a P45 platform. It's at the end of it's lifespan and to be quite frank if you invest in a P45 mobo/CPU and RAM you are actually throwing your money away when you can get more performance for less. 775 is not a sweet spot unless you already own one and are waiting to upgrade in the future.
a b à CPUs
October 22, 2009 10:08:19 PM

azconnie said:
Well, thats why I included the configurer sites. I don't mean to flame anyone, and aren't trying to get flamed myself, but lets face it, how many programs actually topout a 775 system? You can build a 50FPS Crysis rig on 775 for less than a 30FPS 1156 system. Im not trying to hijack the thread with the idea of "ole' relyable," just trying to expand options and save this first timer some money. 775 is in a sweet spot now by my measurements, new enough to be good, old enough to be cheap.

Also the Striker 2 is an Nvidia 790i, not a P45. Although seing as the only real difference between 780i and 790i is a PCIe slot, maybe the Striker II Formula would be better suited. Save some money too.


Quote:
Also the Striker 2 is an Nvidia 790i, not a P45


Same sheat, its LGA 775 ;) 
October 23, 2009 12:03:14 AM

Thank you all so much. You have certainly given me a lot to consider and research
October 23, 2009 6:37:13 PM

Ok 1 more question....if this the correct version of windows I need as a OS

Microsoft Windows XP Home SP3 for System Builders - OEM
October 23, 2009 7:17:34 PM

Has anyone tried this video card???

ASUS EAH4870 DK/HTDI/1GD5 Radeon HD 4870 Dark Knight 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card
a b à CPUs
October 23, 2009 7:39:47 PM

Try and get a video card that blows the hot air out the rear of the case. Those GPU's with crazy cooling methods are just not worth it in my opinion.

Of course ATI will charge you a premium if you want the best cooling method but it is well worth it.

October 23, 2009 7:55:50 PM

OvrClkr said:
Try and get a video card that blows the hot air out the rear of the case. Those GPU's with crazy cooling methods are just not worth it in my opinion.

Of course ATI will charge you a premium if you want the best cooling method but it is well worth it.




Thanks, you seem to be pretty up on this stuff....is there a card you would recomend?....he will be palying alot of role playing games like City of Heroes, Fallout3 ....etc
a b à CPUs
October 23, 2009 8:15:14 PM

Well this is the deal, if you get a case like the Antec 300 or similar (LOTS OF AIRFLOW) then you can get any 4870. Of course the better the cooling of the card, the less you will have to worry about overheating issues. My suggestion would be forget about the 4870 and get a newer more future-proof card like the 5770. Both the 4870 and the 5770 are heel to heel in most bechmarks.

XFX HD-577A-ZNFC Radeon HD 5770 (Juniper XT) 1GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

if you still want the 4870 :

HIS H487F512P Radeon HD 4870 512MB 256-bit GDDR5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

or

XFX HD-487A-ZWFC Radeon HD 4870 1GB (poor cooling but lifetime warranty)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
October 23, 2009 8:26:12 PM

OvrClkr said:
Well this is the deal, if you get a case like the Antec 300 or similar (LOTS OF AIRFLOW) then you can get any 4870. Of course the better the cooling of the card, the less you will have to worry about overheating issues. My suggestion would be forget about the 4870 and get a newer more future-proof card like the 5770. Both the 4870 and the 5770 are heel to heel in most bechmarks.

XFX HD-577A-ZNFC Radeon HD 5770 (Juniper XT) 1GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

if you still want the 4870 :

HIS H487F512P Radeon HD 4870 512MB 256-bit GDDR5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

or

XFX HD-487A-ZWFC Radeon HD 4870 1GB (poor cooling but lifetime warranty)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...




Thanks that is the kind of advice I needed...you have been very helpful. It is nice to have a place like this to go for advice
October 23, 2009 8:40:20 PM

HD4870, HD4890 and GTX260 are the best options for DX10 cards. If you want a DX11 card, go for the HD5770 and if you really want that PC to be able to play games, spend a little more and put a HD5850 in it. That's all you need to know with videocards.
October 23, 2009 8:42:32 PM

Just saw this:

'XFX HD-487A-ZWFC Radeon HD 4870 1GB (poor cooling but lifetime warranty)'

I have this card, and in no does it have poor cooling. Actually, it runs cooler than any other videocard I've ever had from either ATI or Nvidia. Do not worry TOO much cooling - don't let that make your decision for you as it's only a small part of the equation.
a b à CPUs
October 23, 2009 8:54:03 PM

I think it is poor cooling compared to the previous generation of XFX 4870's.. The reason they resorted to that cooling method was to reduce costs and IMO it backfired. Maybe YOUR card runs cool cause you are not pushing it hard enough, try overclocking that card to the max under 30c ambient temps and you will know what I mean =)
a b à CPUs
October 23, 2009 8:58:25 PM

metalweenis said:
Just saw this:

'XFX HD-487A-ZWFC Radeon HD 4870 1GB (poor cooling but lifetime warranty)'

I have this card, and in no does it have poor cooling. Actually, it runs cooler than any other videocard I've ever had from either ATI or Nvidia. Do not worry TOO much cooling - don't let that make your decision for you as it's only a small part of the equation.


This card runs cooler than yours :



if your 4870 runs cooler than anything you have had before then I guess you have had your share of HOT cards ;) 
October 23, 2009 9:00:17 PM

OvrClkr said:
This card runs cooler than yours :

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv199/OvrClkr/XFX.jpg

if your 4870 runs cooler than anything you have had before then I guess you have had your share of HOT cards ;) 





That is a pretty awesome looking card....its amazing what computers have become
a b à CPUs
October 23, 2009 9:07:52 PM

metalweenis said:
Just saw this:

'XFX HD-487A-ZWFC Radeon HD 4870 1GB (poor cooling but lifetime warranty)'

I have this card, and in no does it have poor cooling. Actually, it runs cooler than any other videocard I've ever had from either ATI or Nvidia. Do not worry TOO much cooling - don't let that make your decision for you as it's only a small part of the equation.


Just FYI, I am not saying that you have a poor GPU, just funny how they went from blowing the hot air out of the rear to blowing the hot air all over the insides of the case. Kinda makes sense in a way....
October 23, 2009 10:27:59 PM

The card shown in the picture you provided is, indeed my card. The average ambient temperture here is around 68F, so fairly cold. My case has great cooling so there would be no way for the card to get any hotter than what it does - which is usually about 62c.
a b à CPUs
October 23, 2009 10:39:52 PM

Yep =) gotta love XFX .....

And with an ambient temp of 68c that card should last you FOREVER [:jaydeejohn:5]

October 23, 2009 10:55:03 PM

Oh I expect it to!
October 24, 2009 12:22:23 PM

I've been pondering an upgrade to my amd athlon socketA system for some time now.. I'm thinking i5 is the way to go.. but atm, need to be very conservative on the upgrade (maybe $600 tops). This puts me in a category of getting a mobo (around $150, processor $150-200 depending upon if I MicroCenter or Newegg, possibly a power supply-- mine is 450watt) I am tempted to get a board with onboard video 10.X dx to start out with (maybe ATI 4200/4300 chipset) then 4gb ram ($65-$100?). I have a hard drive,kb/mouse,monitor, case and dvd drives that can stay, so the question really is to wait and let prices come down further.. or buy as soon as I fill my budget savings of $600 & go to town? What's an extra 4 months if I waited 5+ years, heh...

The build in this thread is in my estimation about $750-999, which you can *BUY* a ready-built machine for, which would be no fun and many prebuilt machines will have ONE crap part in them which make them a bad value-- typical. You know what would be nice if any of these configurator sites had benchmark specs so you could see what a *POTENTIAL* build would net you in terms of performance. This would certainly be a boost to those like the poster who has to do the research manually but the advice given here is quite good too.

My recommendations variation on what i'd build:

I5 750 $150-200
ASUS P7P55D $150 give or take 10%
4gb memory ocz obsidian ($60/wrebate) or ocz platinum ($100)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
ATI 4850 $120 to ati 4870 ($165) you will find many lower than these prices I'm listing average according to newegg.
Go with a minimum 750gb hard drive-- you'd be surprised how fast it fills with games & o/s. $60-- 1tb costs about $20 more.. so if your maxing out system specs and you wanna save on HD fine by me.
Haven't researched cases, but here goes:
COOLER MASTER Sileo 500 RC-500-KKR3-GP Black Aluminum Bezel ~$99
KB & Mouse generic pairing $40, premium $65?
Liteon, Samsung, or Sony 24x take your pick, $25-40

*By the motherboard choice, you see SLI is not my mission, here.. for that you pay an extra $50 on the mobo and $165 min on the card...

Grand total $900 (on the high side) not including shipping and/or tax.
Not a bargain, but you get the parts YOU decide on..
I think you should state a budget range.. that's how we could recommend what to get that fits the budget. If money is no object.. you could max out an i7 system with 2 sli cards and 2tb hard drive & faster/lower latency memory (and bump the price up +$500).. but much too much overkill, imo. A gaming rig shouldn't be more than 2-3x a proprietary system like the ps3 costs $300-500 which is $600 - 1500. Like in my budget.. many people would say stick with s775 I'd get better specs and cheaper config parts which could translate into saving which would then be pumped into a video card, blah blah... When I bought upgraded my system in 2003, I did expect to upgrade the cpu at least once, but never did (that's the trap we fall into, to buy a system with the idea of upgrading).. The way things go, expect to keep the system a minimum of 3 years and max of 6 before pondering to upgrade a part or move on... typically it will be the video card and/or more memory as we find ways to utilize it. The software industry is just getting its feet wet with multi-core processors. Utilizing 4+gb of memory is also new to them.. they'll do it, but the number of apps will increase by 2012.
December 21, 2009 3:55:54 AM

chriscornell said:
Don't worry about static charges - I've built around 150 systems and never had a single RMA. These were built without wrist straps or any other voodoo contrapments.

As long as you don't moonwalk across your nylon carpet while dressed in plastic bags before assembling the computer you should be safe :) 



Just for the record...

For anyone who happens across this post, PLEASE disregard the nonsense being spouted above, or risk losing MUCH money on fried parts. I have been a professional hardware technician for a LONG time, and a hobbyist much longer. ESD (electrostatic discharge) is a very real danger, and anyone who would suggest that it isn't is A) VERY lucky, and B) Very foolish. Furthermore, to save the cost of a good wrist strap (roughly ten dollars) but risk hundreds of dollars by not taking proper precautions is not only risky, it's utterly moronic. That's like saying "Hey, don't worry about a taxi... I've driven home drunk over 150 times and NEVER been ticketed or in a fatal crash!"

It saddens me that any idiot can claim to speak with authority on subjects which they're obviously unclear, at best. PLEASE don't advise people to take foolish risks just because you're willing to... they may end up paying for your mistake.

Cheers,

Greg
December 21, 2009 6:18:31 PM

mountaintux said:
Just for the record...

For anyone who happens across this post, PLEASE disregard the nonsense being spouted above, or risk losing MUCH money on fried parts. I have been a professional hardware technician for a LONG time, and a hobbyist much longer. ESD (electrostatic discharge) is a very real danger, and anyone who would suggest that it isn't is A) VERY lucky, and B) Very foolish. Furthermore, to save the cost of a good wrist strap (roughly ten dollars) but risk hundreds of dollars by not taking proper precautions is not only risky, it's utterly moronic. That's like saying "Hey, don't worry about a taxi... I've driven home drunk over 150 times and NEVER been ticketed or in a fatal crash!"

It saddens me that any idiot can claim to speak with authority on subjects which they're obviously unclear, at best. PLEASE don't advise people to take foolish risks just because you're willing to... they may end up paying for your mistake.

Cheers,

Greg


Definitely, better to be safe than sorry. $10 is nothing when it comes to the price of some of these components!
a b à CPUs
December 21, 2009 7:16:48 PM

mountaintux said:
Just for the record...

For anyone who happens across this post, PLEASE disregard the nonsense being spouted above, or risk losing MUCH money on fried parts. I have been a professional hardware technician for a LONG time, and a hobbyist much longer. ESD (electrostatic discharge) is a very real danger, and anyone who would suggest that it isn't is A) VERY lucky, and B) Very foolish. Furthermore, to save the cost of a good wrist strap (roughly ten dollars) but risk hundreds of dollars by not taking proper precautions is not only risky, it's utterly moronic. That's like saying "Hey, don't worry about a taxi... I've driven home drunk over 150 times and NEVER been ticketed or in a fatal crash!"

It saddens me that any idiot can claim to speak with authority on subjects which they're obviously unclear, at best. PLEASE don't advise people to take foolish risks just because you're willing to... they may end up paying for your mistake.

Cheers,

Greg


I see where you are coming from, but the wrist strap is the same as touching the case. I always use my case as a ground but I would never waste the money on a wrist strap. If you would like to argue with me about this I would suggest that you get a degree in Computer Engineering or simply get A+ Certified.
a b à CPUs
December 21, 2009 7:34:40 PM

I have a certificate as a electronic technician, not my chosen profession now. My father worked at IBM for 25 years as a field engineer. Static electricity is a real phenomenon and he more than anyone preached about wearing a strap. When its below freezing in the northeast its so dry you can generate a good zap with just your jeans getting out of a fabric chair. As soon as you discharge yourself, wiggle around and your energized again. Build in these conditions and your asking for trouble without being grounded the whole time. I built my rig without one, but I would not take it apart in my basement right now where I can generate on demand a big spark. I don't think it a good idea to not consider static discharge.
a b à CPUs
December 21, 2009 7:57:35 PM

Pro Llama said:
I see where you are coming from, but the wrist strap is the same as touching the case. I always use my case as a ground but I would never waste the money on a wrist strap. If you would like to argue with me about this I would suggest that you get a degree in Computer Engineering or simply get A+ Certified.


Cant hurt to have an extra layer of protection. ;) 
December 21, 2009 10:00:22 PM

Pro Llama said:
I see where you are coming from, but the wrist strap is the same as touching the case. I always use my case as a ground but I would never waste the money on a wrist strap. If you would like to argue with me about this I would suggest that you get a degree in Computer Engineering or simply get A+ Certified.


Ahh, ignorance and assumption, hand in hand. How nice.

I am A+, Network+, CST, CNST and a member in good standing of the Electronics Technician's Association international. Which would stand to reason, as I DID point out that I am a technician by profession. All of which, by the way, is quite irrelevant. I've never quite understood where waving paper supercedes common sense, but then, I guess that's what separates a professional in the field from someone who "has a degree."

ESD is not something which simply "goes away." ANY movement away from the case which you are trusting to ground you leaves you open to collecting a charge. As I believe someone else mentioned, the legs of your pants brushing together is enough to generate a charge MORE than sufficient to destroy the Northbridge or processor. And if you acknowlegde the need to ground yourself on a case, how could you POSSIBLY turn about and say that something as inexpensive and unobtrusive as an antistatic wrist strap is unneccesary? The whole PURPOSE of using a grounding STRAP is to keep you connected to the grounded surface, which you AREN'T if you are installing components into the case. And to be fair, this is a misconception that even some technicians labour under, (and eventually pay the price for) so I don't BLAME you, I'm simply INFORMING you. A tool rarely exists unless there is a need for it, and to tell people that it's unneccesary simply because YOU have been lucky is irresponsible. You've built 150 computers... I work on more than that in a week.

And incidentally, you seem to have made more than one assumption here... I'm not arguing with you, I'm simply INFORMING you. An argument generally indicates that there are two possibly valid points of view, which in this case, there are not. If YOU should happen to have "simply gotten A+ Certified," then you obviously didn't pay much attention to the sections on safety and ESD. A quote from the CompTIA sanctioned study material should clarify things:

"Some people think static charge is removed by touching the metal in the chassis. This isn't true; the charge is merely equalized. An ESD kit with floor mat is the only way to move the charge to the ground, thus fully removing the charge."

Now, I wouldn't suggest that spending the money on a professional ESD bench kit is even remotely necessary for someone who intends to build one or two PC's. Keeping any stray charge equalized (ie staying ATTACHED to the chassis via a strap) is nearly 99% as safe as using a full kit, realistically. However, failure to observe basic, fundamental safety techniques WILL eventually result in an expensive lesson. I've seen it more times than I can count.

Please understand that I have no personal investment here. I'm simply trying to make others aware of the facts before something untoward happens to their equipment. As for you? I hope this has been enlightening for you. Basic rules to a happier life? Know your FACTS, NEVER assume, and if you feel the need to argue, NEVER assume that the person you wish to argue with is less knowledgeable than you, or you are very likely, as in THIS case, to find out exactly what your foot tastes like. Mmmm, MMM!

Cheers,

Greg
a b à CPUs
December 23, 2009 3:43:45 PM

mountaintux said:
"Some people think static charge is removed by touching the metal in the chassis. This isn't true; the charge is merely equalized. An ESD kit with floor mat is the only way to move the charge to the ground, thus fully removing the charge."

Now, I wouldn't suggest that spending the money on a professional ESD bench kit is even remotely necessary for someone who intends to build one or two PC's.


You just contradicted yourself and proved my point in all of 3 sentences. It is quoted that the only way to remove the charge is to use an ESD kit, and then you say that an ESD kit isn’t necessary. I never said that the case removed the charge I said I used it as a ground. Now speaking of “ignorance and assumption, hand in hand” I never stated that I built 150 computers. With your foot in your mouth maybe you you’ll stop acting so high and mighty and see that just because you have been doing it that way, it doesn’t make it the right way.

I have proven my point and there is nothing left to say.
;) 
December 23, 2009 5:46:24 PM

Pro Llama said:
You just contradicted yourself and proved my point in all of 3 sentences. It is quoted that the only way to remove the charge is to use an ESD kit, and then you say that an ESD kit isn’t necessary. I never said that the case removed the charge I said I used it as a ground. Now speaking of “ignorance and assumption, hand in hand” I never stated that I built 150 computers. With your foot in your mouth maybe you you’ll stop acting so high and mighty and see that just because you have been doing it that way, it doesn’t make it the right way.

I have proven my point and there is nothing left to say.
;) 


Good, then don't say anymore... prove your intelligence.

To begin with, I concede a point. I originally posted to ONE person, but you decided, with your WEALTH of knowledge and experience, to dive in on their behalf, and I DID assume the person for whom the post was INTENDED was replying - my bad, and my apologies.

However, in the future please fully read and understand a post prior to responding to it. The only thing you've PROVEN is your lack of comprehension of the overall point. At NO time have I contradicted myself or "proven your point." And let's be VERY clear here - there IS no way to prove your point, because you're WRONG. I did NOT say at any point that it is necessary to REMOVE a charge, I simply pointed out that it is necessary to REMAIN GROUNDED at all times, which is what a wrist strap is FOR... keeping you in CONSTANT contact with your grounding point, rather than only occasional contact. For what I do, an ESD kit is MANDATORY. For someone who OCCASIONALLY biulds systems or works on internal components, I would never suggest spending hundreds of dollars. If you recall, the entire POINT of my post was to help people avoid WASTING hundreds of dollars. Keeping in constant contact with a grounding point is sufficient to avoid damaging components for the most part, but you CANNOT do that without a contact tether. And, again, yes, I ASSUMED... I assumed that the point was obvious, and wouldn't have to be explained in excruciating detail. Again, my apologies.

Finally, I'm sorry that you feel intimidated by knowledge. If THAT is what you consider "high and mighty" then do yourself a favour... stay out of any occupation which requires debate. You won't do well. And you seem to have come to the misapprehension that this is a "my way" vs. "your way" discussion... it is not. Nor is it a debate, conjecture, or argument. I have been "doing it that way" because it is the only proper way to take the necessary precautions, which if you recall, was the point of my ORIGINAL post. Frankly, it makes no impact to my day whatsoever how you decide to work on your equipment. It's yours, if you feel the need to take risks to save a few dollars, fill your boots. You would be JUST as accurate to say just because I've been making sure my brakes are in good condition doesn't mean that having good brakes is the "right" way to drive my truck, and for much the same reason... just to be argumentative. Remember, YOU decided to pick this, YOU decided to be insulting, and frankly, YOU should have left it alone. You haven't proven your point, because you never had one to BEGIN with. I'll reiterate... this is NOT an argument, this is me trying to enlighten OTHERS so that they don't make easily avoidable and potentially expensive mistakes.

If feeling "right" is what gets you through the day, then by all means be my guest. I truly hope that you never have to learn your errors through hard experience, but in my experience that's usually what it takes to get through to some people. At any rate, my post was never intended for someone like you to pick at, it was intended to help others learn the correct and safe way to do things. Think what you like, but in at least one thing you were eminently correct... there IS nothing left to say. Have an excellent Christmas (or whatever holiday you celebrate :)  ) And be well.

Cheers,

Greg
a c 87 à CPUs
a b 4 Gaming
December 24, 2009 10:50:27 AM

Great, another ugly thread. Do we really need two paragraphs of personal putdowns Greg?

I personally think electronics have got better with this sort of thing. My wifes uncle likes to tell the story of when he worked in a place that programmed ICs. Warehouse in back, office space in the middle, and the front reception area in front. Large orders went out the dock in back, while small orders went out the front. They redid the offices including the Conference room. It got a new table, better chairs, carpetting, and a snazy (for the time, about mid 80s if I remember correctly) new over head projector. While they were working on the conference room all the small orders had to go out the bac and around the building. Needless to say the workers were glad when all was finished.

The first guy to fill an order once it was done made the mistake of going through the conference room. Due to the carpetting he picked up enough static electricity to short out EVERY IC in the box he was carrying. Me? I get new parts and build them on my carpetted livingroom floor. I ground myself before I start, but then don't give a card once I get started. I have yet to have any part break for SE reasons.

Does this mean I need to be educated greg? That I don't know anything? I find the strap a pain to work with, and seeing as I haven't lost anything yet I find not much room to worry.
December 24, 2009 11:08:38 AM

i 7 is good for gaming i have been using it.
a b à CPUs
December 24, 2009 11:20:18 AM

I build PCs on nylon carpet with no wrist straps, no tinfoil hats connected to a metal plate, and no scissors touching the Earth pin of the nearest power outlet. In fact, I've worn socks while doing this. I've never killed anything. That said, I don't recommend anyone else who can't afford to replace components do this ;) 

On another note, ESD is not the subject of this thread.
!