NVidia and DX11

Theres rumors starting to emerge that nVidia currently wont have any high end DX11 solution.
This is all speculation, and we'll know how it all turns out with their release of their cards.
The rumor goes as follows:
Since they wont have a high end DX11 card, theyll only be releasing low mid end solutions at low low price points.
This, in effect, will discourage devs from DX11 paths into new games, as the low end cards wont help much obviously, and even ATIs high end may nt do alot, as is often seen with new DX releases.
These rumors come from the East, but by nVidia people, not ATI people.
I hope these rumors are nothing more than that, just rumors
Im not trying to flame, start wars, or anything of the kind, but nVidia has shown in the past, when their cards arent ready (ala the original DX10) or more recently (the removal of DX10.1 from AC, and the shunning of it) the lack of DX10,1 thats been out for quite some time, I find these rumors as possible. Thoughts?

I highly doubt they will do this or one major reason. They missed out on DX 10.1 and while there wasn't a huge amount of games for it (mostly do to the fact DX11 was around the corner) they were still seen as 'behind the times' in some way. If they don't step up they will lose people who are undecided on who to go with because ATI will look more current and future proof.

Also they won't be discourage to many devs simply because the all powerful Microsoft is laying down the law for DX 11 because they need it to boost sells on Windows 7, and they need content for that. Even Nvidia doesn't have the power to sway the pull devs will feel from Windows because they know if they don't come out with content people will think it's a dud and not buy it later on.

ATI is catching up in sells and in card performance, they can't afford to give people another excuse to get ATI cards and DX11 is a big one in the hardcore market as we all know people like us want the latest and greatest in their cases.

Problem with that is, the all powerful M$ relented originally on DX10, thus the need for DX10.1 to begin with, as nVidias card werent capable. And still arent. The called back some of the original DX10 because of nVidias lack of hardware ability.
And we all saw how M$ touted DX10 and Vista together.
Also, theres never been so slow an uptake onto a new DX model before this happened, as it went hand in hand, as they removed the best performance enhancing ability of DX10 by removing the now DX10.1 one less pass option using 4xAA

yeah but since then ATI has had a jump start. If Nvidia says now Microsoft will simply say "to hell with you these other guys are already on board and making them." They have to much riding on DX11 to not get hardware support from someone, even if it means relaying ATI to deliver a amazing line up.

In Taylors blog, it was clear that the ATI shaders were better at doing DX10 (as it was then at the time, before they removed the DX10.1 part) than nVidias, so, they ended up taking the lowest path, thus hurting ATI
It was plain to see, without AA, the 2900 kept up pretty well to the G80, once you applied AA however, the perf nosedived, since it didnt have the 1 less pass included.
So, yes, you could say M$ this time is going to tell nVidia its either sink or swim, but what of the game devs?
Look at my link regarding Batmans Arkhum Asylum. There, theyve convinced the devs to not include AA usage at all for ATI cards, let alone the recent elimination of physx using anything other than a nVidia card, and that also includes the aigeia cards as well.

Theres been tons of rumor about the G300 simply not being able to hit the timing of DX11/W7 release, and possibly even the end of the year. How are the game devs going to model their games with mid class only compliant HW from nVidia? Is it a M$ all over again?
How much attention or word has come from nVidia regarding DX11?
I can give the Siggraph papers links, where everything from gpgpu to DX11 and LRB was discussed, with everything pointing towards DX11, even on consoles, but again, where is nVidias push?
http://developer.nvidia.com/object/siggraph-2009.html
Heres nVidias Siggraph papers. Ive looked on that page, and couldnt find DX11 mentioned on it, at all

Im sure ATI will have them put it in, if not, I agree.
But, the point is, why wasnt it there to begin with? Anyone ever complain about ATI sponsored games that nVidia cards cant use full functions? No? Then why here?

In my links, it shows how ATI typically advises game devs, how they suggest DX10 games compliance, then later may suggest DX10.1 abilities as well.
nVidias and Batman Arkhum devs use only the nVidia path, which can be renamed with workaround using the nVidia name even.
To me at least, even if it does get "fixed", theyve already sunk that low, both nVidia and the game devs.
Im sorry, I am coming down hard on nVidia here, but to be totally honest, Im sick of this backwards cr@p, and I actually mean it when I say, Im hoping for a G300 early surprise, so maybe both ATI and nVidia can work in tandem getting DX11 off the ground.
It means the earlier we see it, the better our games will be, and PC gaming needs the boost, cause even tho you may be in business just for the monies, and you may be in heavy competition, taking care of the larger picture should be in everyones focus, including ATI and nVidia

And how exactly was the DX10 transformed? Did the original have exactly the same coding? Or was the coding changed because of the latter adoption? If you have links, Id love to see them, maybe Im wrong, but it seems feasible to me.
Also, you have to take timing into account. What HW changes were made by ATI, scrambling with the release of the 2900 which ran hot due to TSMCs 80nm and couldnt reach their projected clocks, and their HW resolve for 1 less pass was changed, and only minor tweaks could be adopted, which in the end, may have eliminated the 1 less pass option as well?
Lots to consider here, especially taking into account all scenarios

Btw, I would like to point out (although a off-topic) that such games as Batman are incredibly affected by Nvidia and the 'way its meant to be played' slogan. Not only is Nvidia Physix touted, there is literally things missing if you don't turn physx on (aka, don't own an Nvidia card) some things that have nothing to do with physix at all. Such as with physx off, there are no hanging banners in some rooms at all, not even static ones. With Physix on there are banners hanging up, and 'moving realsiticly'

Physx is great and all for those who can use it, but why downgrade the overall game for those that don't own Nvidia ?

This was just one example, there are many others in batman, and other twimtbp games out there.

Yea, the steam just doesnt exist as well. Looks like to me at least, they took the steam out of me ever wanting to buy it also heheh

Jaydee, was your comment about AA specifically something to do with FSX or games in general?

I am having trouble understanding where you are coming from, you say it was plain to see the 2900 kept up with the 8800 but plain to see where?

Jaydee, the 2900's problems with AA had nothing to do with dx10. It had everything to do with games using standard methods of enabling AA which the 2900 didn't have the hardware to do unlike the 8800.

Are you perhaps thinking of deferred rendering where the AA is applied in the shaders without having to be done seperately as most games would have it done?

This is perhaps over my head but I do remember the discussions of the 2900 and the 8800 and AA was not blamed on anything to do with dx10. The dx10 stuff was to do with other stuff such as deferred rendering.

I could give you a link from TPU discussing this with EastCoastHandle. This very thing, AA and all, if I can find the old link.
Im really surprised at this.

Sorry SS, cant find it. Anyways, thats what the folks think, TGGA does as well as I do too.
But, back on topic, if this comes to pass, its a leveraging Im just no longer capable of being ok with, at all.
I hate fanboyism, and yes, Ive always admitted to preferring the red over the green, but Ive bought both, and enjoyed both, but if this does happen, Id hate to become something I hate, course, soon, theres always Intel heheh

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/ar [...] 91687.html
Theres other examples, its late sorry but Im tie red. Tomorrow Ill explain myself better, (and possibly shudder at what Ive typed tonight) heheh
http://www.anandtech.com/video/sho [...] =2988&p=11

In the Batman case, I haven't done the demo, but I would assume those banners (Even static ones) are effected in some way by the PhysX API. And again, nothing is preventing ATI from adopting PhysX. And once you consider how PhysX has already been ported to all the consoles, only ATI is preventing the unified Physics API from being a reality.

I find it odd: Now PhysX is actually being used properly, and people are complaining? Go figure; that API can't seem to win...

They had PhysX and it was shut down. Then the ability to use a PhysX card along side a ATi card was shut down. ATI already adopted it but it's Nvidia that is not allowing it.

But really, we have to get rid of the object completely ? We can't even keep them there to do nothing, they take them completely out of the game ? It's the same for fog and steam in batman, completely gone for ATI. It's a PR move for physics 100%, and it affects everyone without a Nvidia card. I mean, there's no way my 3 1GB 4870's can't process the fog or banners at all ??? Obviously it could handle it, but they have left it out.\

Also, on consoles: The current consoles have what ? 9 - 12 cpu cores I think, Xbox has like 7 or 9, and obviously the cell is pretty beefy. My point is while avg. computer users are still on dual cores, and SOME are on quads, the consoles can actually use a core or two just for physics, because don't tell me they use their puny gfx cards to do the physx.

PS3 - Cell Processor (8 cores = 1 disabled + 1 for OS + 6 for developers)
XBOX 360 - IBM Xenon with 3 cores
Wii - dual core? (not easy to find), though it has a separate PPU

LOL 7 - 9 cores on the xbox 360? sure.... lol you pay like 400 bucks for 6 core Opterons and they fit a 9 core into a $200 console.

not mocking you or anything but i'm glad some people make me laugh when i'm bored

To me, it comes down to architecture (bus width, registers, instruction sets, and storage) more then CPU horsepower, and the 360 wins that battle hands down.

I guess if all the nVidia claims are to be at all taken seriously, theyd have to dump xbox as well?
Or, could it be, we see again that whats good for nVidia, and nVidia alone is what again theyre doing here?
Anyone else tired of this? Want to see early DX11 adoption?

DX is a standard, physx is not and never will be. Saying it is becoming so is a joke.

yes if you want something to become standard you open it up for DX like ati did with there tessellation, physx was offered to ati over the Internet (through news site's) now if that's how nvidia do business you cant blame ati for not taking them up on there offer

First off all, NVidia bought PHYSX... so it's not the fault of ATI.

Second off, if that's true that PHYSX is important in Batman AA, it would mean that the PS3 version will be vastly superior since xbox (ATI gpu) and PS (Nvidia gpu).

I wonder if DX11 will not change all that game. It's maybe the reason why AMD jump so fast on the bandwagon.

Can we please remember that the physx being used in the consoles has nothing to do with gpu acceleration.