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DX 11 with old card?

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August 14, 2009 10:34:20 PM

As i read info about dx 11, I read it as that only "new" cards with have dx11. Why is this? Why cant say a "old" 200 series card be able to run dx11, isnt it just software?


thanks

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a c 105 U Graphics card
August 14, 2009 11:10:05 PM

I don't know. My assumption is that in order to sell new cards they won't write the software update to make it work on the old ones.. I'm sure it would work .... I read at least one article about it somewhere. We need new cards anyways, right ?
a b U Graphics card
August 14, 2009 11:15:29 PM

Same reason Dx 10 dont work on DX 9 cards.

Now quit being stupid and go with the flow.

All DX versions are software but each one requires a specific set of harware to make it run.
Related resources
August 14, 2009 11:16:40 PM

swifty_morgan said:
I don't know. My assumption is that in order to sell new cards they won't write the software update to make it work on the old ones.. I'm sure it would work .... I read at least one article about it somewhere. We need new cards anyways, right ?



Thats funny consider a xbox 360 only has like a 7600gt or something in it. If these companies werent so selfish and just made one card than all games, drivers, etc would be optimized to run on that card. So if a 7600gt can run games like far cry 2 and crysis 2, then why not the computer?
a b U Graphics card
August 14, 2009 11:21:00 PM

Why are you a moron?
August 14, 2009 11:22:43 PM

daship said:
Same reason Dx 10 dont work on DX 9 cards.

Now quit being stupid and go with the flow.

All DX versions are software but each one requires a specific set of harware to make it run.



Why am I being stupid? Its all about money really. If nvidia/ati/ microsoft are more than capable to get older cards to run the new software. Thats like saying windows 7 requires and i7 processor to work. Again Im stupid....its really everyone who falls for this sh** if everyone stopped buying the newest cards they would stopid being so damn greedy.
a b U Graphics card
August 14, 2009 11:24:33 PM

No your just an idiot with no money. Have fun with your dx10 card.
August 14, 2009 11:26:40 PM

daship said:
Why are you a moron?



I can see you are another 13 year old lil boy being immature on these forums. If you have nothing to contribute then shut up!! This is a place to discuss peoples opinions and help people with problems not a place to act childish. If you have nothing good to say or dont want to further the conversation then just leave.
a b U Graphics card
August 14, 2009 11:29:31 PM

You only problem is you a broke noob that believes in fairys and if you wish for something it will come true.

Enjoy your dual core with dx 10 and i'll enjoy my i7 with dx 11 and win 7.

I already got win 7 now I just need the dx11 cards to hit shelves.

Cant wait!!!!!!!!!:) 
August 14, 2009 11:29:32 PM

daship said:
No your just an idiot with no money. Have fun with your dx10 card.




Yes you are right IM THE MORON!! Im going to rochester institute of technology....had a 95 avg all through high school....yea college is....hmmmm 40 grand a year....which also explains why I dont have loads of money to dump at this current time. You are just a immature little child who has a richy mommy who whips ur a** and buys you whatever you want. So I suggest you grow up now and if you cant say anything to help the thread leave. People like you should be banned from forums.
a b U Graphics card
August 14, 2009 11:30:46 PM

Your question is as dumb as saying why wont a phenom ii run in a x58 mobo. Different hardware dumbo.
August 14, 2009 11:33:40 PM

daship said:
Your question is as dumb as saying why wont a phenom ii run in a x58 mobo. Different hardware dumbo.


That statement is correct. Key word hardware not software!! LIKE I SAID ITS LIKE SAYING YOU NEED A I7 FOR WINDOWS 7!!!! Not sure if you got to analogy's yet in middle school?
a b U Graphics card
August 14, 2009 11:34:35 PM

New DX revisions aren't just software/driver updates. They actually require different hardware. DX10 cards for example have unified shaders, compared to the individual units on older cards. DX11 will have a tessellation unit, as well as (probably) some changes to the shaders themselves.

As for a 7600 GT running Far Cry 2 and Crysis, it definitely cannot run them fully cranked at any decent resolution. It can't even run the DX10 features that Crysis uses on the highest settings. Besides, the Xbox is quite a bit faster than a 7600GT. As for the speed of games on consoles, it isn't a matter of optimization - it's a simple matter of performance. Compare the appearance of games fully cranked on a PC at 1920x1200 and on the Xbox 360 at 720p (1280x720 with less AA, lower detail, etc) and you'll see why the PC needs so much higher of a video card. Optimization plays a small part, but it isn't anywhere near significant enough to let anyone run a game like Crysis, fully cranked at 1920x1200, on a video card as weak as a 7600 or 8600 (or even a higher end card like the 8800GT).
August 14, 2009 11:36:08 PM

Quote:
The xbox has a unique gfx card in it which has roughly the performance of the x1900 series gpu, nothing like the 7600gt.

Also, it is possible for many dx card from previous gen's to run newer ones, but it just isn't practical in most cases from what i have read.

In some cases some things are physically impossible in others it would just be too hard to implement.

Like it or lump it, you need a basic set and nowadays a strict set of functions to make sure developers know what they are working with when they make something dx such and such compliant.



You are right sorry read it wrong. The 360 is comparable to the 7600.....my b
August 14, 2009 11:39:09 PM

cjl said:
New DX revisions aren't just software/driver updates. They actually require different hardware. DX10 cards for example have unified shaders, compared to the individual units on older cards. DX11 will have a tessellation unit, as well as (probably) some changes to the shaders themselves.

As for a 7600 GT running Far Cry 2 and Crysis, it definitely cannot run them fully cranked at any decent resolution. It can't even run the DX10 features that Crysis uses on the highest settings. It isn't a matter of optimization - it's a simple matter of performance. Compare the appearance of games fully cranked on a PC at 1920x1200 and on the Xbox 360 at 720p (1280x720 with less AA, lower detail, etc) and you'll see why the PC needs so much higher of a video card.





Like I said if the any game was programed to run with just 1 gpu and a specific driver than it would get much better performance. But games cant work like that other than the console games, because there are so many gpu's out there not just 1
a b U Graphics card
August 14, 2009 11:39:58 PM

If the OP coud read above I already told him DX requires the hardware and software to make it happen.

He obviously doesnt realize hardware wont work without software, and software wont run on hardware its not programed for.

He just dont get it because the quarter he threw in the wishing well didnt get him his wish.
a b U Graphics card
August 14, 2009 11:43:29 PM

If you want a game thats optimized for 1 game play xbox 360 then. The rest of us like choices, and it helps keep prices low.
August 14, 2009 11:43:34 PM

Doesnt dx10 cards work with dx9 in at least xp correct?
a b U Graphics card
August 14, 2009 11:44:47 PM

Duh, they are backwards compatible, not forward compatible.
August 14, 2009 11:45:03 PM

daship said:
If you want a game thats optimized for 1 game play xbox 360 then. The rest of us like choices, and it helps keep prices low.



Keeps prices low....for real? gtx 295 is what 500 than is 3 months when the 300 series comes out they will be 500 and the 295 will be half.
a b U Graphics card
August 14, 2009 11:48:28 PM

Well its common knowledge that Nvidia gouges. Imagine the price if it was the only option, it would be 3 times as much.

Your brain must be the size of a grain of salt.
August 14, 2009 11:49:57 PM

daship said:
Duh, they are backwards compatible, not forward compatible.



Then there is nothing stopping for dx11 to be written to support previous cards!! If a dx 11 card can play dx 10 and 9 then a dx10 card should be able to play dx 11. It is how the software is written, if microsoft/nvidia/ati decided to "let" key word "let" dx10 cards work with dx11, it would be great. But they need to make money so this is what they do. Now if you could say purchase just the software upgrade, it would save a lot of people a large amount. Instead of buying a new card just pay for the software. Similarly how a new os works. You pay for the software and it will work on ur current system(within reason), you do not have to fork out money for a new mobo and gpu and cpu for a new os.

Enough said
a b U Graphics card
August 14, 2009 11:55:08 PM

RETARD!!!!!!!! Its not just a software upgrade, go read about it more. The hardware in DX11 has been upgraded as well.

Backwardss compatibility dont mean forward.

What you are saying is oh my intel rig runs Vista but when I put a amd in my motherboard it dont work. It worked in a amd mobo it should work in a intel mobo if they programmed it to.

Your a stuid troll, get a life and a job and buy a dx11 card if its that important to you.
August 14, 2009 11:55:46 PM

daship said:
Well its common knowledge that Nvidia gouges. Imagine the price if it was the only option, it would be 3 times as much.

Your brain must be the size of a grain of salt.




Thats not true, if you new anything about business or economics you might be able to have an argument. So you are the one without any knowledge. As demand goes up so do prices, if demand goes down so does prices. So if the cards cost and outrageous amount then know one would buy them. Thus the price goes down!!! Wow thats a difficult concept. Again the xbox cost wasnt to ridiculous when it came out, but as time went on less people bought them so the prices had to be lowered...then everyone goes and buys one. This continues many times until the xbox 3 comes out.
a b U Graphics card
August 14, 2009 11:57:07 PM

mespo365 said:
Then there is nothing stopping for dx11 to be written to support previous cards!! If a dx 11 card can play dx 10 and 9 then a dx10 card should be able to play dx 11. It is how the software is written, if microsoft/nvidia/ati decided to "let" key word "let" dx10 cards work with dx11, it would be great. But they need to make money so this is what they do. Now if you could say purchase just the software upgrade, it would save a lot of people a large amount. Instead of buying a new card just pay for the software. Similarly how a new os works. You pay for the software and it will work on ur current system(within reason), you do not have to fork out money for a new mobo and gpu and cpu for a new os.

Enough said

If I have a corvette, I can go 65 miles per hour all day long. I can also do this in a minivan. In a corvette, I can do 180 miles per hour. There is clearly no reason why the minivan shouldn't do 180 as well.

See the error in the logic?
August 14, 2009 11:59:54 PM

cjl said:
If I have a corvette, I can go 65 miles per hour all day long. I can also do this in a minivan. In a corvette, I can do 180 miles per hour. There is clearly no reason why the minivan shouldn't do 180 as well.

See the error in the logic?



But if i changed the "engine and tranny"=software then you could!
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:00:37 AM

DX11 can use the unified shadera, or some unified shaders on DX10 cards, but itll be a much more limited scenario, as all the shaders wont be compliant, as DX11 is. Whether this would help or hinder a DX10 running a DX11 scenario ? Who knows? But it is possible, but not the TU, it does require the HW.
We'll have to wait n see whther devs can make it better this way, or if they try at all
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:01:06 AM

Its all hype anyway.

10x was all the rage. How many games came out with it? A handfull.

Now DX11 samething will happen. They will be working on DX 12 as soon as DX 11 hits store shelves.

Its called technology, and you have to upgrade if you want the latest and greatest.

Looks like you better get a job or be happy with you dx 10 Dell.
August 15, 2009 12:02:48 AM

daship said:
RETARD!!!!!!!! Its not just a software upgrade, go read about it more. The hardware in DX11 has been upgraded as well.

Backwardss compatibility dont mean forward.

What you are saying is oh my intel rig runs Vista but when I put a amd in my motherboard it dont work. It worked in a amd mobo it should work in a intel mobo if they programmed it to.

Your a stuid troll, get a life and a job and buy a dx11 card if its that important to you.



Alright now you are just a fu(king a$$ hole!!!!!!!!!! There is no reason what so ever to use the word retard unless describing an individual who is mentally incapable. It is extremely disrespectful to not only me, but anyone with that condition.
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:03:41 AM

mespo365 said:
But if i changed the "engine and tranny"=software then you could!




Engine and tranny would be hardware. Again you dont seem to realize the difference between hardware and software. You would also need to add the computer "software" to make that engine and tranny work in the van. The vans software wouldnt run it.


You are a troll and this thread should be closed, and you should be banned.
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:04:57 AM

You obviously are mentally incapable, and have proved it over and over.
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:08:41 AM

If your brain was direct x it would be DX .001 beta. You need to upgrade.
August 15, 2009 12:09:01 AM

daship said:
Its all hype anyway.

10x was all the rage. How many games came out with it? A handfull.

Now DX11 samething will happen. They will be working on DX 12 as soon as DX 11 hits store shelves.

Its called technology, and you have to upgrade if you want the latest and greatest.

Looks like you better get a job or be happy with you dx 10 Dell.


I feel extremely sorry for your parents. You are a the reason why our society is so screwed up!! There is no reason for you to act the way you are!! This was just supposed to be a simple, friendly discussion. But you are insulting people greatly and Im sure if you were retarded you would give anything to become normal.


I do not own a dell I have a custom system, in which i built it. Saying that I have to go out and get a job is pretty ridiculous seeing that you mommy buys everything for you and me being a full time college student whos first priority is to study and not dump a thousand a year on new equipment.

Again I asked a question a expressed my opinion...being that im tired of upgrading all the time....anyone else is welcome to as well, but not you who is not contributing at all and just being the 12 year old boy you really are!
August 15, 2009 12:12:18 AM

daship said:
Engine and tranny would be hardware. Again you dont seem to realize the difference between hardware and software. You would also need to add the computer "software" to make that engine and tranny work in the van. The vans software wouldnt run it.


You are a troll and this thread should be closed, and you should be banned.


Me banned...calling people retarded and calling the morons and idiots for asking a question and expressing their opinion? wow


And the way he used the anology that would be the software in that case it was a poor analogy. Like i said os is created it is software....you get it...it works no upgrade bs. And dont say amd thats like comparing nvidia to ati which for all intensive purposes are the same.
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:14:04 AM

Sorry mespo365 but you really are just rejecting every poster's explanation so far.

Here I'll attempt to explain.
DirectX isn't just a piece of software it's a full programming API. It is also a set of guidelines that graphics card manufacturer's have to follow.

Prior to DirectX 10 graphics cards were basically composed of pixel shaders, vertex shaders, texture units, and ROPs. DirectX 10 brought a physical change in the hardware and every prior version of DirectX has done the same thing. DirectX 10 brought a new component to graphics cards that component is the unified shader. Instead of having seperate pixel and vertex shaders a unified shader can do the functions of both and geometry shading as well. That is why DirectX 10 won't run on DirectX 9 based gpus, the hardware is physically different. BUT DirectX 9 can operate on DirectX 10 based gpus although it can't use the enhanced features included with those gpus.

Understand?
August 15, 2009 12:14:11 AM

by the way there are mods/hacks out there that make dx10 work on dx9 cards fyi
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:14:12 AM

Everyone here has disagreed with you thus far. Proves you are a bid slow and totally ignorant.
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:15:58 AM

And daship please stop throwing insults at him it's not gonna make him understand any better.
August 15, 2009 12:16:13 AM

edeawillrule said:
Sorry mespo365 but you really are just rejecting every poster's explanation so far.

Here I'll attempt to explain.
DirectX isn't just a piece of software it's a full programming API. It is also a set of guidelines that graphics card manufacturer's have to follow.

Prior to DirectX 10 graphics cards were basically composed of pixel shaders, vertex shaders, texture units, and ROPs. DirectX 10 brought a physical change in the hardware and every prior version of DirectX has done the same thing. DirectX 10 brought a new component to graphics cards that component is the unified shader. Instead of having seperate pixel and vertex shaders a unified shader can do the functions of both and geometry shading as well. That is why DirectX 10 won't run on DirectX 9 based gpus, the hardware is physically different. BUT DirectX 9 can operate on DirectX 10 based gpus although it can't use the enhanced features included with those gpus.

Understand?


Edeawillrule thank you very much!! See is that so hard daship? I really appreciate the explanation...I suppose I should have read more about dx11 and how it works.
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:17:07 AM

mespo365 said:
by the way there are mods/hacks out there that make dx10 work on dx9 cards fyi


No there isn't.

What you're thinking of is the mods circulating to make DirectX 10 work in xp.
Not make DX 10 work on DirectX 9 cards.
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:17:35 AM

You're very welcome :]
August 15, 2009 12:19:35 AM

edeawillrule said:
No there isn't.

What you're thinking of is the mods circulating to make DirectX 10 work in xp.
Not make DX 10 work on DirectX 9 cards.


Yea I no that, I just thought there was a modded version out there maybe it was really just a modded dx9 version which got similar effects to dx 10?

thanks again for you explanation.....see no bashing or inappropriate comments
thnx

August 15, 2009 12:22:07 AM

So do i dare ask this?.....what are the improvements graphically wise from dx 11 - 10 and are there any features in dx11 that can be implemented in dx 10?

thx
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:26:24 AM

mespo365 said:
So do i dare ask this?.....what are the improvements graphically wise from dx 11 - 10 and are there any features in dx11 that can be implemented in dx 10?

thx


I haven't read a ton about DirectX 11 since it technically isn't released yet.

But as far as I know DirectX 11 improves the efficiency of many operations and brings the compute shader along with (official other than ATI's current version) tessellation.
It also is supposed to improve multithreading in games.

I'll see if I can find an article or two for you.
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:31:12 AM

If whats currently on a DX10 card has enough to use DX11 effectively, you may see more of DX10 implementation we hardly see now, such as SSAO, which will add eye candy.
Best thing is to wait til tommorrow, as there should be a few reviews coming from Quakecon, showing the DX11 demos put on by ATI today.
In them, youll see a few nice eye candy demos, which may be made possible if done right even on a few DX10 cards
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:33:02 AM

Quotes from wikipedia: "Parts of the new API such as multi-threaded resource handling can be supported on Direct3D 9/10/10.1-class hardware. Hardware tessellation and Shader Model 5.0 will require Direct3D 11 supporting hardware."

"Direct3D 11 is a strict superset of Direct3D 10.1 - all hardware and API features of version 10.1 are retained, and new features are added only when necessary for exposing new functionality."

So unlike previous versions of DirectX, DirectX 11 will bring a few actually noticeable benefits to older graphics cards although you won't get the full experience you would from a fully DirectX 11 compliant gpu.
a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:35:23 AM

Actually you may want to read the full DirectX wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX

It's quite informative about DirectX and how it works. (and how it has worked in the past)

The compatibility section of the article may be of particular interest to you.
August 15, 2009 12:40:42 AM

It appears that dx9 had a very long lifespan is dx10 which is fairly young in comparison going to last much longer?....frankly I havent seen tons of games that are dx10.

And as new games come out "dx 11" games, they will still suport dx10 correct?

a b U Graphics card
August 15, 2009 12:47:42 AM

The main reason DirectX 9 has had such a long life span is because of two reasons:

1. DirectX 10 isn't part of Windows Xp and Windows Xp has the highest market share.

2. The PS3 and Xbox 360 both have DirectX 9 gpus and since most games are ported over from consoles developers don't add DirectX 10 enhancements.

I don't think DirectX 10 is ever going to see a huge level of adoption since DirectX 11 is just an extension of it.

And yes that is correct.
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