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Is this true?

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August 8, 2009 10:10:21 PM

So I was looking around at builds and was considering building my own computer. I stumbled on this site that has a few articles that basically sacred the :o  out of me! They claim building at home can cause alot less performance and more errors.

http://www.shopl2.com/PC-How-to-build-for-gaming-s/274....

Their prices seem good, but I never heard of them! Also if all this is true why wouldn't any other company talk about it?

More about : true

August 8, 2009 10:13:36 PM

It causes more errors and less performance if you don't know what you're doing. And there is the fact that you could order a part that is faulty. Manufactures test their computers before sending them out. As long as you order the right parts and know how to install and OS/drivers then it's better in every way! (except for customer support, but I'd use Tom's 'customer support' over a PC manufacture's any day, and anyone here would agree with me)

They are just trying to scare you into buying a computer from them, because custom built computers are becoming more and more common, which is less business for them.
August 8, 2009 10:13:50 PM

Because it doesnt cause any errors if you do it right, if you fail at following instructions and are careless in your build you can damage components but that can happen any time you work on a computer. If you come to a site like this for advice and follow that advice we will help you through your build and get you a machine cheaper than they can build it running better because it doesnt have any bloat ware on it from the manufacture.

They just want to try to cut back on the home built crowd because it earns them more money. My desktop that i built a few weeks ago has been running flawlessly, it was my first build.

Definitely Raidur, toms tech support doesnt come with accents and is quite good at finding the issue, it helps to have 30 tech support agents with years of experience helping you figure out whats wrong.
Related resources
August 8, 2009 10:14:33 PM

come on lots of people have done this if u have any problem just google it or send me a message
August 8, 2009 10:24:55 PM

I googled it and found dozens of reputable sources saying even the tiniest jolt can cause damage.

I dont know what it means when you say if you "know what your doing". eHow even has an article warning you to reduce static in the room that has an already built computer!

A few sites claim this is the number one cause of damage and loss of performance causing billions on damage. Why is it I have never heard about this!?
August 8, 2009 10:27:01 PM

QUOTE: The second and more important point is our build facilities. L2 computers are built in ISO rated clean rooms which have proven to provide up to 40% more performance then building at home, even with a static strap and mat (although a strap and mat do decrease that percentage significantly). It has also proven to have less errors. So building at home not only costs more for the parts, but it costs up to 40% more in performance. This is why we do not recommend EVER opening your PC at home. To support this we even offer free upgrades and support for the life of the PC (see warranties for more details). :ENDQUOTE

That was in the list... Yes static does cause damage, but they are making it seem like it always causes performance loss. Bitch please...

Lol they're trying to say computers are more expensive when you build it yourself compared to theirs. I just looked at their prices and all I can say to that is LOL.
August 8, 2009 10:36:20 PM

Because most people dont have that much dust in their house that it makes a difference. Yes dust retains static. Yes dust accumulated on parts leads to a decrease in performance. Yes the 'tiniest jolt' can cause damage, but that is because any static shock you can see is 10kV and any shock you can feel is 30kV. If you touch the steel case before touching any parts you will discharge all static electricity.

By know what you are doing i mean, dont get DDR2 ram and wonder what it doesnt fit in your DDR3 only motherboard, dont get a cheap startech $13 PSU and use it to power your $200 graphics card and wonder why it doesnt work. Yeah dust is bad for computers, so get a case with a dust filter on the intake fans and clean it out once in a while, most prebuilts dont have an air filter on their intake so opening it at home is no worse for it that leaving it closed because its not a sealed environment anyway.

I doubt it causes billions in damages each year, maybe millions but that is in corporate server applications which do sometimes exist in a clean room. I have opened up and cleaned out all of the desktops i have owned countless times, and they performed the same the day they were gotten rid of as they did they day there were bought, most of them better because they got upgrades.

Just looked at their Ultimate Gaming PC, i figure the rest of you will get a kick out of it too
http://www.shopl2.com/Ultimate-Gaming-PC-Computer-s/154...
Quad 4850s on a PII 940 with 8GB 800MHz DDR2 ram, these guys dont know a damn thing about building a high end rig, even an i7 975 cant feed 4 graphics cards fast enough to keep them at a high frame rate.
August 8, 2009 10:39:02 PM

they say they build it in a clean room...implying that the gain in performance can be because of less particles and dust.....and they even go as far as saying not to open your computer at home.....but they don't seem to mention that there are fans that suck the dust in all the time anyway......

also....be sure not to buy that fast memory and GPU.......it will ruin your gaming experience
August 8, 2009 10:58:10 PM

Good point.. I emailed them with some of things said here. I am curious now.
August 8, 2009 11:06:28 PM

Please post their response if they email you back, im curious what they say. If you have any other questions please do ask, there is nothing wrong with buying a prebuilt if you arent comfortable home building but still check back here because often times the graphics card or the power supply they include arent that great or arent adequate for your needs.
August 8, 2009 11:44:23 PM

Ok so Doug wrote back with a massive email.. He said some is cut and paste and this is a common question. I dont know if this all going to fit so im sorry for multiple posts if I ahve to!

My mail:
I was shopping for a new PC and found your site. As I got to reading the articles on your site I noticed you guys mention static electricity a lot. I have never heard about it before today! I googled and posted on the some popular forums and wanted to ask you for a response to a few questions and posts:

Link to the forum post:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/269458-31-true#bas

This is the one that got me thinking the most:
“they say they build it in a clean room...implying that the gain in performance can be because of less particles and dust.....and they even go as far as saying not to open your computer at home.....but they don't seem to mention that there are fans that suck the dust in all the time anyway......”

Actually I think all my questions are really asked in the fan post. Thanks in advance!

LanLabs response (I shortened it, it was a long email):


… Yes, our findings have made us outcasts even in-industry. ESD damage seems to be most prevalent on new components. We have yet to do a major follow up test that will detail the effects over time, however, the testing has not only proved the initial effects, but we leave out a major factor. Major manufacturers of components build and design in clean rooms AND major PC manufacturers used to only build in clean rooms until demand surged above supply. There are only two major clean rooms in the country, they were left abandoned when the market grew above their capacity. This was the industry “norm” at one time!...

…computer components are sprayed with a coating to shield them from ESD and also seem to “temper” over time when heated and cooled. The only facts we have are that computer components after our burn-in testing are far less likely to degrade when exposed to positive ions in the air or ESD discharge from human contact….

…which leads to protecting the PC in the home. The case and the motherboard are grounded to the case itself and the power supply. Shipping and setup are still dangerous for the PCs, but once they are in the home they are plugged in which grounds the case, and therefore the components. We counter this danger with an extensive burn-in session which “tempers” the components versus the affects. We also use only top-end cases that pay attention to the dangers of ESD. Look at your case, most have a lot of extra metal under the motherboard mounting tray. The more metal and the better the connection to that metal, the larger the shock has to be. What protects these components when you remove from their ESD protected packaging in your home?...

…while we are one of the lesser known PC manufacturers in the industry, our game servers have been the mainstay in the industry since our purchase of the clean facility in 04. Producing up to 30% more performance then equivalent builds. Our largest growth has been in 07 when both Crysis hit the market and Vista became a mainstay. This was because our Gamer LvL1 was the only PC able to Crysis for $499 that year. This was with components deemed substandard by the forum gods and home build community…

…To this date, due to our theory of balance, our use of a clean room and heavy R&D budget, we consistently produce computers and servers that dominate real world price versus performance benchmarks. With notable clients such as Pixar Entertainment and MTV, we are the standard in real-time rendering. Just happens our passion is gaming….

…As for the Gamer Lvl3 comment, putting in more components opens more paths for data to travel which equated to less latency. His comment about the i7 is somewhat correct. Without getting over technical, the i7 is extremely high latency and also forces you to use DDR3 (also very high latency), so it will use less data paths due to the fact a well balanced PC will be able to support the large information packets sent by the i7. But you would never use an i7 for gaming, or DDR3, at least until the technology is available to lower latency…
…gaming uses smaller packets that must be processed faster to ultimately output high FPS. Depth and detail are factored by how many lines of data can be sent at one time. Core performance is send first. So when building for gaming, data transfers and latency are the first concern, not processing power and rendering ability…

…This is where AMD stream processing technology comes into play. Nvidia has attempted to copy it, but so far they have been way too large and produce too much heat. A Stream Processor is like a variable pixel pipeline that basically assigns itself to the path it is most needed, rather than be fixed like the pixel pipelines. As stated above, heat is the enemy of latency. These combination of tactics, using only directly manufactured equipment – not rebranded overclocked substitutes, a clean room, our theory of balance and the fact we test most major combination prior to allowing them, is what produces our “unbelievable” results…


August 8, 2009 11:46:30 PM

driving a car can cause death

I say we ban them all now
August 9, 2009 1:22:49 AM

I guess u were all as impressed with the response as I was? I filled out for a quote, I havn't heard back yet. But I think they have earned my business.
August 9, 2009 1:39:02 AM

Bad news for him, that small packet bit doesnt quite apply when it comes to quad fire, take a look at this chart and you will see that at anything above 2 3870s it starts losing performance
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-char...
Its because the CPU is unable to feed all four of the graphics cards. Unfortunately toms has not recently benchmarked crossfire or quad fire setups, but quad SLI and Quadfire dont scale as well as logic says they should because of CPU bottlenecks and PCI-E speed restrictions.

Yeah DDR3 is slightly higher latency, but toms recently did a test that showed that there is almost no difference in performance from DDR3 1333MHz and DDR2 1066, even though DDR3 has higher transfer speeds and DDR2 has lower latency, those two effects balance each other out.

To say that 'core performance' is more important than rendering performance is definitely not true for a gaming computer. If i am running at 2560x1600 having an i7 975 overclocked with a 4670, while providing great performance for nongaming tasks, is going to perform absolutely atrociously at anything about low detail, hell even 2 GTX285's cant feed a 2560x1600 monitor
August 9, 2009 1:40:11 AM

Get a quote from them and post the specs and price here, im curious what their price premium is relative to cyberpowerPC or a home built from newegg.
August 9, 2009 2:23:26 AM

I'm pretty appalled at this. Opening my PC can lower it's performance by 30%? That's BS. Latency over processing power? Yeah. Okay. Benchmarks from...everywhere...disagree. Data does not lie.

It's a big marketing gimmick, they've got there.
August 9, 2009 6:03:06 AM

Hello all :)  I am the salesman Martin had contacted before.

While we hate to condone these efights, he did link me the forum before, so I checked it at home. Before I respond, I would like to stress that I do not endorse, nor favor any company or manufacturer. LanLabs prides itself on going on real-world results, and will never accept payment for endorsing a product, which in case you didn't know some unscrupulous card vendors do. They pay well actually.

Benchmarks do "lie". Not because Toms or any other review site is fraudulent (although some might be, that's just not what I mean), it is because there is no way funding a proper test bench could be worth it. Let me explain:

You take a computer with parts A, B and C - D is our variable or component for review. D is going behave differently in EVERY machine you put it into. Why? Because computers processors (and there are dozens in every PC) are the most complicated electronics on the planet, bar none. With small operating systems inside them that all function differently.

Don't believe me? Google any one of those cards in the link from hunter: "card name FPS in Crysis". I just spent about four minutes picking reputable sites and came up with severely different results. The same year that was published, in April we released a YouTube video getting over 40FPS with our Gamer LvL2. At the time it only had an AMD 5200 and a 3650 TopEdition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLEcfmVn7Ag

Also please keep in mind this is not real-world results. They are not running communication software, with a few webpages open, while running an extra 30 background processes like the average user. Protocol for gaming packets state the packets MUST be received in order and you cannot miss a packet. This makes latency (the speed in which the data travels from component to component) make a lot more sense now doesn't it?

With a multimillion dollar facility, we have yet to make an i7 gaming build we feel is worth it for the money.

This is also why we are currently opening our showrooms. NY is open now if any of you care to see for yourself, address is on the site. It is easy to lie online :)  We will happily prove the difference.

Last time we got into it with a major name, was Alienware (pre-Dell Alienware, when they were the pinnacle of performance) and Samsung back in 02. Most of you do not know that Web2Zone (was the largest and most prominent gaming center in North America) was owned by Samsung and we owned a private 10,000sqft facility a few blocks away called LanLabs (surprise lol). This facility was home to the majority of Cal-I teams for Counter Strike and eventually CSS. our computers cost a fraction of Web2Zones and we had to close the facility to the public due to crowding. Both Web2Zone and LanLabs have been closed, but Google it, there is plenty to be found.

We are used to scrutiny, and being the under-dog. But please do not accuse of some "marketing campaign" because of a forum post. My point of the above story is we have been around for a long time, competed with the "best", and flourished.

You may not know who we are, but I can assure you both the people that develop, render and host a lot of the titles you play know us very well. When computer results equal profit, we are well known. The gaming industry holds, at best, a 30% profit margin. It is simply a passion and a hobby for us. Besides, if you do come to NY you will see why we keep the PC department open! I love my job! I work out of the Rockville Centre store.

There is nothing I can say to convince you here that the industry is full of lies. Dell and HP especially have bullied a large portion of the boutique builders out of business. So it is not economically viable for a computer builder to do R&D, buy a clean room or benchmark components properly. Due to our other businesses, we have too. It is simply cheaper to spend more on customer acquisition.

Go tour a manufacturing facility for components. You would think they produced nuclear waste! Space suits and special air cleansing systems. Now you think you have the qualifications to handle this stuff just because the market became economically viable to put it into retail boxes? Seems ignorant to me.

Not to mention as I stated in my response to Martin, this was the norm in the industry at one time. So everyone else USED to think the same thing we did, now they stopped.

Besides, the sprays and a lot of the materials used to build these components is deadly when it comes into contact with skin. Obviously in large doses, but still. Go read about compliance.

I am long winded, I apologize. but this is a huge part of my job, so this conversation is normal to me. Have a good night guys!
August 9, 2009 6:16:54 AM

Can you post a link to one of the studies that shows the 30-40% increase in performance due to your clean room? I dont trust the results of a study unless i can read through it myself and identify any potential conundrums in the study.

And unless all of your cases come with hepa filters over all of the fans, whenever they are turned off dust will enter and settle into the case, the antec 900 in your lvl2 intel system has a large top mounted fan that on the stock case does not have a dust filter put on it because it is primarily an exhaust fan, so unless you are adding HEPA filters to all of the fans, which will clog and need replacement fairly regularly, opening the system does no more to increase the amount of dust in the system than leaving it off for a week.

I also noticed that while your base systems are a good value you make most of your money off of the fact that the base model is inadaquate for the average user, your lvl2 amd system comes with a 4650 which while decent isnt enough to run crysis on high on even a 1280x1024 monitor, but for $105 you can upgrade to a 512MB 4850, but for $110 i can get a 4850 with a double lifetime manufacturer warranty off of newegg.

And this is more of an academic discussion than an efight, if you guys actually have something ground breaking i might be interested, but i prefer to see the evidence myself, preferable from independent, third party lab results, and your show room on long island is quite a ways away.
August 9, 2009 6:33:42 AM

Ok, I have just one question.

Why, in an $800 gaming computer, did you put an HD 4650?

Oh, one more Q: Why do half your pc specs not mention their specific GPU. Your entry-level L1 system uses an "ATI 4 Series GPU" and your nVidia one uses an "nVidia GTX Series Graphics with Stereoscopic 3D support" card. It just bothers me to not be able to know exactly what I'm/someone is getting.
August 9, 2009 6:58:48 AM

Load Of Crap. That's what that article is

Of course they are going to say stuff like that when they want you to buy from them. They give you alot of truth and half truths, but then sneak in that one lie that will convince you to buy from them

Building it yourself will not give you 40% less performance. Even if we are talking about overclocking getting the most out of your system is a long tedious process where as factory overclocks often just give a quick setting that should be stable and are run through a pass fail scenario, not a lets tweak it a little more and see how far it will go like you may do.
August 9, 2009 8:12:38 AM

hunter315 said:
Can you post a link to one of the studies that shows the 30-40% increase in performance due to your clean room? I dont trust the results of a study unless i can read through it myself and identify any potential conundrums in the study.

And unless all of your cases come with hepa filters over all of the fans, whenever they are turned off dust will enter and settle into the case, the antec 900 in your lvl2 intel system has a large top mounted fan that on the stock case does not have a dust filter put on it because it is primarily an exhaust fan, so unless you are adding HEPA filters to all of the fans, which will clog and need replacement fairly regularly, opening the system does no more to increase the amount of dust in the system than leaving it off for a week.

I also noticed that while your base systems are a good value you make most of your money off of the fact that the base model is inadaquate for the average user, your lvl2 amd system comes with a 4650 which while decent isnt enough to run crysis on high on even a 1280x1024 monitor, but for $105 you can upgrade to a 512MB 4850, but for $110 i can get a 4850 with a double lifetime manufacturer warranty off of newegg.

And this is more of an academic discussion than an efight, if you guys actually have something ground breaking i might be interested, but i prefer to see the evidence myself, preferable from independent, third party lab results, and your show room on long island is quite a ways away.


I am sure I can get the a copy on Monday. This was a privately funded study, so I am unsure if we had a lab do it, or our people. I did a few searches for it, but I don't remember the title, form number or anything. Give it a shot, the results were not privatized. We sent out a white paper on our findings. It is not 40% if you build at home, although a simulated home build was the 40%. It was:

Clean room with ESD gloves, clothing and face mask.
Clean room in normal cotton clothing.
Outside clean room with strap, mat and clothing.
etc.. etc..
Down to cotton clothes, bare hands with normal non-magnetized tools.

The 40% is the amount of static a component could take before it failed. This resulted in loss of performance and random errors, bugs etc.. Which we nicknamed "forum errors".

I am writing that from memory just to give a guideline. I do not remember the specifics.

I do apologize for calling it an efight, but the next few paragraphs I am going to respond to are reminiscent of one :(  although I had answered some of these questions, so I will cut and paste.

"The case and the motherboard are grounded to the case itself and the power supply. Shipping and setup are still dangerous for the PCs, but once they are in the home they are plugged in which grounds the case, and therefore the components. We counter this danger with an extensive burn-in session which “tempers” the components versus the affects. We also use only top-end cases that pay attention to the dangers of ESD. Look at your case, most have a lot of extra metal under the motherboard mounting tray. The more metal and the better the connection to that metal, the larger the shock has to be. What protects these components when you remove from their ESD protected packaging in your home?"

Our base system, that you call "inadequate" is guaranteed to play ALL new games with acceptable settings (moderate res, moderate settings.. etc.). This is the machine that made us famous! Also our top selling system, by far. If you think about, that system plus... Lets say anywhere from 20-40% performance, is pretty nice :) 

Contrary to popular belief, a video card is there to compliment a system by relieving stress of the processor and main system memory. This does not solely define the performance of a game. To big of a card, you create a choke point as it requests to much information from the processor and RAM. To weak of a card, like a 4650 on an i7 system as you stated before, and you cripple your whole machine. That poor little card is probably screaming for dear life lol. A computer is only as fast as the weakest choke point. - This is our theory of balance between components. Matching the I/O speed of each component carefully.

First, even if we are few dollars over a build at home (which I am unsure if we are), we pay for a clean room, engineers, not to mention the highly knowledgeable and exemplary sales staff :)  - We are definitely one of the lowest priced manufacturers out there. I regularly do quotes against Cyberpower, iBuypower etc.. Who are very cheap. We also have our custom quote system in which we work with you to build your dream PC, for your budget. Who pays for our expertise? You trying to get me fired!?

Second, manufacturer warranty is not offered from Newegg, or any retailer. It is a manufacturer warranty, therefore as long as your component was manufactured, you will still have this replacement warranty. Although, we handle for you, even after warranty periods. You just pay for shipping. Otherwise they take weeks sometimes to return the part.

Third, last time I put one our Gamer LvL1 on Newegg it came to about 380ish. Add shipping, ESD tools (please tell me you are not using any old tools), strap, mat, high-end thermal paste (this stuff is crazy) added wires and.. really? This is "cheaper" to you? Retail is expensive, you receive no support and you have to factor your time and your downtime should you need a repair and shipping cost (free from most boutique builders). I can see if you were forced to buy a proprietary build, but there a few boutique companies still out there.

Plus, I would like to point out a very interesting fact to you. DOA and overheat are not words in our vocabulary. I forget the exact statistic of DOA parts to our company, but I know its less then 1%. Overheat? The majority of our computers do not surpass 44 degrees, even under stress. This is also due to our theory of balance.

Less then 2% of our computers are returned for warranty service due to repairs. I am sure the majority of those are moving parts also (HDD or DVD failure).

These statistics lead us to believe that our clean room works. We are not rocket scientists that invented a better computer. We simply do what was standard place in the industry only a few years ago, that has been forgotten now because of the absurd cost.
August 9, 2009 3:04:35 PM

xXm4rtinXx said:
I googled it and found dozens of reputable sources saying even the tiniest jolt can cause damage.

I dont know what it means when you say if you "know what your doing". eHow even has an article warning you to reduce static in the room that has an already built computer!

A few sites claim this is the number one cause of damage and loss of performance causing billions on damage. Why is it I have never heard about this!?


Like the first poster said they are trying to scare you into buying from them! dont fall for it, pretty much anyone can build their own PC, especially if you know how to post on toms. yes its possible to cause dammage, but if you are careful and use a little common sense with the components and when installing software you have nothing to worry about. besides it way more satisfying to build your own PC.
August 9, 2009 3:12:20 PM

latency matters... but so does raw power. bunch of BS in my opinion. ill believe it when i see a complete study that prooves that a clean room can provide a %30 increase in performance (wont happen because its not true)
August 9, 2009 5:29:25 PM

LanLabs, I don't think anyone here will contest that home built systems are cheaper - for the most part, they are, and always will be. By default, businesses have to add more to the cost of building something. This is kind of a moot point.

What I think everyone here is shocked about is your outlandish claims that homebuild PCs have less performance, and that you need a clean room to build a PC. Which (without a benchmark to prove it, and some serious detail) I don't think you'll convince any of us is true. The most break-neck, high performance PCs are always home built...and I've never seen any of them built in a clean room.

I think your "do I need the latest and greatest graphics card" section should be re-written. When I read it, I got the impression that you were meaning to say the faster the interlink between all the components, the faster the machine. What you clarified here is much better; the components must balance one another in processing power so that there is as little "idle" time for each component. With the logic from before, the latest and greatest graphics card would play just as fast as the crappiest if the CPU was bottlenecking the system, and also have the same latency. Any communication from the CPU (if it's the bottleneck) would be received just as fast on the crappy card as the good one. So, really, latency isn't much the issue, it's down-time for your components, which really only translates into wasted cash, and, in many cases, lost performance (but not all; this depends on what component is in the spotlight).

However, I would just like to add that you're a good guy for posting here and responding to your claims and accusers. Many companies (your competitors) don't bother with it. This shows a little something for you.
August 9, 2009 5:44:21 PM

LanLabs said:
I am sure I can get the a copy on Monday. This was a privately funded study, so I am unsure if we had a lab do it, or our people. I did a few searches for it, but I don't remember the title, form number or anything. Give it a shot, the results were not privatized. We sent out a white paper on our findings. It is not 40% if you build at home, although a simulated home build was the 40%. It was:

Clean room with ESD gloves, clothing and face mask.
Clean room in normal cotton clothing.
Outside clean room with strap, mat and clothing.
etc.. etc..
Down to cotton clothes, bare hands with normal non-magnetized tools.

The 40% is the amount of static a component could take before it failed. This resulted in loss of performance and random errors, bugs etc.. Which we nicknamed "forum errors".



If you could post that paper when you find it i would appreciate it, because if i understand you correctly you guys correlated 40% less static electricity until failure to 40% less performance? With regular cleanings and a reasonably clean room even that 40% reduction in ESD resistance doesnt cause a 40% reduction in the performance. I have a PII(thats a pentium not a phenom) that still runs old games on windows 98 as good as the day we got it, and it has been opened i dont know how many times.

Also, your study likely did the worst case scenario with no attempt at grounding the builder which isnt true of most home builts. I did mine in my humid basement and grounded myself multiple times during the build so the risk of static was very low, if you guys did your test in a 0% humidity room with no attempt at grounding you likely got skewed results, which is why i want to see the study myself. If you let my set up a study will a goal in mind i can prove that home builts provide 100% more performance than prebuilts, while it would make a very impressive point its the fine points in the study that convey the true results not the published results, im also concerned that your results may have confused a correlation as causality which i often see news stations doing.

I knew minoring in psych would come in handy some day.
August 9, 2009 5:48:43 PM

'Don't believe me? Google any one of those cards in the link from hunter: "card name FPS in Crysis". I just spent about four minutes picking reputable sites and came up with severely different results. The same year that was published, in April we released a YouTube video getting over 40FPS with our Gamer LvL2. At the time it only had an AMD 5200 and a 3650 TopEdition.'

over 40fps? yeah but that bench was @ 1024x768, not the 1680x1050 or above that most benchers used to get the fps.

Just admit it, your company is a load of BS, TBH you're lucky you haven't been sued for false advertising.
August 9, 2009 6:09:53 PM

:o  I'm in trouble. I have had a breadboarded E5200, OC'd to 3.75 GHz, in a recycled GA-EP35-DS3P just sitting there on my table for about the last 4 weeks.

Let's see. I should lose 40% of 3.75 GHz. :ouch: 

Nope. Still running at 3.75 GHz. :D 
----------
Building computers since 1976.
Overclocking since 1978 - Z80 (TRS-80) from 1.77 MHz to 2.01 MHz


August 9, 2009 6:12:53 PM

^ or the IPC goes from 4 to 2.4.

if you did a 3dmark then maybe you could test that to see if you lose 40% of the marks.

edit: Note to self, if someone complains about your company on the Internets, fix it ASAP.
August 9, 2009 7:10:26 PM

That note should read: If *knowledgeble* people complain about your company, fix it.

But here's the test we need. Take a computer, built from these guys, in a clean room using all their fancy stuff. Take it home, benchmark it (Sandra, Crysis, Futuremark, everything, both synthetic and real-world). Then, using NO equipment, just grounding yourself, even without a wrist-wrap, tear it apart, put it back together, and run the tests again.

$20,000 says there's no difference greater than 5%. (And yes, I realize that a monetary bet is completely useless online, but it's what I'd say to you if you were here.)
August 9, 2009 7:44:42 PM

If you can buy parts in industrial quantities, then you can get lower prices. On the other hand, the home builder does not have to pay for his "clean room" facilities, labor costs, and add in a profit mark up. The parts we buy all come with manufacturer's warranties which may exceed the warranty from The dells etc. Lifetime on ram and video cards for instance.

To prove the performance claims, why not submit one of their products to Anandtech or another such review site to test and report the results? If the performance is so wonderful, particularly for the price, then the world should know. Not gonna happen, I think. One good mark is their interest in directly responding to the forum on the issues.

The true value in building it yourself is the satisfaction and experience you gain. ..... Priceless.
August 9, 2009 8:38:14 PM

geofelt said:
If you can buy parts in industrial quantities, then you can get lower prices. On the other hand, the home builder does not have to pay for his "clean room" facilities, labor costs, and add in a profit mark up. The parts we buy all come with manufacturer's warranties which may exceed the warranty from The dells etc. Lifetime on ram and video cards for instance.

To prove the performance claims, why not submit one of their products to Anandtech or another such review site to test and report the results? If the performance is so wonderful, particularly for the price, then the world should know. Not gonna happen, I think. One good mark is their interest in directly responding to the forum on the issues.

The true value in building it yourself is the satisfaction and experience you gain. ..... Priceless.


Lol i was going to write like a few paragraphs to say the lanlabs is totally BS but pretty much everyone here proved lanlabs wrong.THE OP IS CLUELESS FOR LINKING THAT SITE and this thread should be removed because some noobs will come in and get sucked into their marketing scheme

Best quote : The true value in building it yourself is the satisfaction and experience you gain. ..... Priceless.

The 40% decrease they said is totally BS, if it was true HP and Dell will go out of business already. Nope, they still dominating the market. I don't have time to list the BS they said and prove them wrong but if you have a WORKING brain you know they are pathetic coming here on Tom's proving us the "PROS" wrong. Even if they provide a report, its pointless because it is easily faked. Show an exact same PC built in a "Clean room" vs homebuilt run 3dmark06 or other benches, i doubt there's a difference more than 5% because of the quality of the hardware.

Another thing, LanLabs site looks rubbish and made in like 2 hours. They aren't even on wikipedia, which shows their company is small and unreliable due to their "BSing skills" or what they call marketing skills
August 9, 2009 8:43:32 PM

Helloworld_98 said:
'Don't believe me? Google any one of those cards in the link from hunter: "card name FPS in Crysis". I just spent about four minutes picking reputable sites and came up with severely different results. The same year that was published, in April we released a YouTube video getting over 40FPS with our Gamer LvL2. At the time it only had an AMD 5200 and a 3650 TopEdition.'

over 40fps? yeah but that bench was @ 1024x768, not the 1680x1050 or above that most benchers used to get the fps.

Just admit it, your company is a load of BS, TBH you're lucky you haven't been sued for false advertising.


I was thinking the same thing. With those parts they showed in the video... at 1024 x 768... no wonder they got those framerates. I could pull off exactly the same results with a homebuilt using those parts, all for less money.

Actually, I would bother doing that. I would take that money I would have spent doing that same test setup, spend it on a REAL gaming machine and enjoy those 40fps (and higher) in Crysis at 1920 x 1080 instead :) .
August 9, 2009 8:48:37 PM

^ is that even possible, 40fps at max settings (inc AA) 1920x1080? :p 

that must be one hell of a graphics setup since 8xAA in Crysis kills pretty much every system.
August 9, 2009 9:02:06 PM

What the web site is 99% BULL ***. THey are just using scare tatics to scare the ignorant and the uniformed. LOL 40% lose of performance by building at home is FLAT OUT laughable. Maybe .00023% lost performance to none . BS straight though.
August 9, 2009 9:37:45 PM

Lol 40% i feel like i'm reading a driver update from nvidia that just seems odd even if in some instances it is true
August 9, 2009 11:02:13 PM

Im sorry.. You guys r idiots. When confronted with an educated argument you say "no".

I found TONS of information saying your computer run hotter, things run slower, parts fail yadda yada. Basically all the complaints you see on forums like this and reviews on newegg.

Quotes and links that PROVE how stupid u r all:

This board is filled every day with people who have developed RAM errors, data corruption problems (generally RAM) ect, Most of which can be traced to either poor power regulation (Transient Response) of the PSU, or ESD

Latent defects caused by ESD in any IC (and they are just everywhere from HDDs to NIC, CPU, RAM ect) are massively underated as a cause of problems. If you have eliminated power fluctuation problems (PSU voltage regulation and power conditioning) and still experience a component failure, odds are that it was a latent defect, either from installation, or one that wasnt caught during manufacturing.
the membership displays a cavalier attitude towards this issue for 2 reasons, RMA's are pretty easy, and they rarely employ the same component for its fully rated lifespan, upgrading before the eventual premature failure becomes appearent.

But a latent defect, not only effects the lifespan, it degrades the performance of the IC as well, and is often the difference between the "Golden Chip" benchmark leader, the norm, and "why cant I get the same OC as this guy? Ive got the same components"

A latent defect, on the other hand, is more difficult to identify. A device that is exposed to an ESD event may be partially degraded, yet continue to perform its intended function. However, the operating life of the device may be reduced dramatically. A product or system incorporating devices with latent defects may experience premature failure after the user places them in service. Such failures are usually costly to repair and in some applications may create personnel hazards.

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=761614
August 10, 2009 12:19:20 AM

xXm4rtinXx said:
Im sorry.. You guys r idiots. When confronted with an educated argument you say "no".

I found TONS of information saying your computer run hotter, things run slower, parts fail yadda yada. Basically all the complaints you see on forums like this and reviews on newegg.

Quotes and links that PROVE how stupid u r all:

This board is filled every day with people who have developed RAM errors, data corruption problems (generally RAM) ect, Most of which can be traced to either poor power regulation (Transient Response) of the PSU, or ESD

Latent defects caused by ESD in any IC (and they are just everywhere from HDDs to NIC, CPU, RAM ect) are massively underated as a cause of problems. If you have eliminated power fluctuation problems (PSU voltage regulation and power conditioning) and still experience a component failure, odds are that it was a latent defect, either from installation, or one that wasnt caught during manufacturing.
the membership displays a cavalier attitude towards this issue for 2 reasons, RMA's are pretty easy, and they rarely employ the same component for its fully rated lifespan, upgrading before the eventual premature failure becomes appearent.

But a latent defect, not only effects the lifespan, it degrades the performance of the IC as well, and is often the difference between the "Golden Chip" benchmark leader, the norm, and "why cant I get the same OC as this guy? Ive got the same components"

A latent defect, on the other hand, is more difficult to identify. A device that is exposed to an ESD event may be partially degraded, yet continue to perform its intended function. However, the operating life of the device may be reduced dramatically. A product or system incorporating devices with latent defects may experience premature failure after the user places them in service. Such failures are usually costly to repair and in some applications may create personnel hazards.

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=761614


That's because as more people who build/buy prebuilt the more problems there will there will be. You also have to factor in people doing stupid stuff like working on carpet with socks. People also touch the IC, there people who even put memory in the wrong slots.

You also have people who complain about prebuilt pc not working. This could be the result of ESD damage or manufacturing error. Even items that don't have to worry about ESD such as coins suffer from factory defects.
August 10, 2009 12:19:40 AM

Via a combo on newegg i spent 645 and built myself a similar computer to that, however i got a faster processor, and mine will have far more future upgrades than that. For about 300 less my home built system will likely tie your 1 grand system in any gaming benchmarks.

I have seen his educated argument, however if one cannot provide a test that proves their statements then that argument is an opinion and opinions are like assholes, everyones got one and most of them stink. They also shoot for a very different type of system than people here do, they aim for moderate resolution on medium settings, here we shoot for high/ultra high settings at your monitors native resolution.

Im going to go through their little "How to choose a PC" article and point out the major wrong points in there.
http://www.shopl2.com/PC-How-to-build-for-gaming-s/cate...

"Look for a PSU that is 80+ certified, or use the Thermaltake power supply calculator HERE and add about 40% if it's not 80+ certified (80+ means that is 80% efficient or better). So if it says 500watts you get 400, unlike some lesser quality PSUs that will give much less. "
The rating on a PSU is output power not load at the wall, so as long as the PSU is rated at 500 watts continuous power then it can give you 500 watts continuous power, but it will draw far more from the wall.

"Processing speed has not changed for some time. What has changed is how many cores (or mini processors are inside one physical chip). We see dual and quad core a lot now. So that same 3.2 MHz processor is essentially two 3.2 MHz processors or a 6.4 in the case of dual core"

This is horribly incorrect, my 3.2GHz quad core is not equivilant to a 12.8GHz processor, if running a single threaded application it will perform as well as a single core 3.2GHz processor. Multiple cores do not add together if the programs were not written to make use of them, this is why the higher clocked Core2Duos beat out their slower quad core brothers on most games.

"RAM measured in MB or GB (GB = 1000MB)"
Someone failed computer math, 1GB is 1024MB not 1000.

"Compare our computer to a proprietary build of the same price. Not only will our computer runs circles around it in performance, you will (on average) keep our computer 200% longer then the proprietary. We look at that as 200% cheaper."

Well my 2002 P4 HP is still living on, with my dad now since i built my new system, so if someone is keeping their computer 200% longer than i tend to they are still running a 286 and nothing you can do to a 286 will make it keep up in the modern world, and my recent build is about 65% the cost of an equivilant prebuilt because newegg offers some kick ass combos. They will never convert me because i am a tinkerer by nature, but they would get more people who are capable of thinking if they prominently posted their studies on their home page.
August 10, 2009 12:24:08 AM

hunter315 said:

The rating on a PSU is output power not load at the wall, so as long as the PSU is rated at 500 watts continuous power then it can give you 500 watts continuous power, but it will draw far more from the wall.

....

Someone failed computer math, 1GB is 1024MB not 1000.



Not entirely true. Some PSUs are rated and labeled falsely to give them a better appearance in the market. It's well known that many cheapo PSU brands often don't live up to their specs.

And, about the computer math thing, both are correct. 1000MB is 1GB for hardware. 1024MB is 1GB only in the software world, as the computer depends on binary numbers - therefore, any number of anything must be in powers (and sums) of two.

August 10, 2009 1:56:37 AM

No frozenlead you're wrong. 1GB = 1024MB
Read the whole post before you make stupid comments. The site is stating that 1GB is for RAM. Know the situation before you make stupid comments. http://www.shopl2.com/PC-How-to-build-for-gaming-s/cate... Don't believe me? What is half a gig it's 512mb. now times 2. now it's 1024mb. You fail at math too. Please use your brain before posting

Also stop reviving this post, you can pretty much say that the OP is probably a marketing guy for the company as he keeps disbelieving and complaining about our forums people. Like I said before if the 40% thing is true HP and Dell will be out of business already. Nope, they're still dominating the market. Also no reports by third parties = bull$hit. Don't know why this noob OP keeps on complaining. He said we're all wrong? No you're wrong you believed a stupid marketing guy. Plus you're probably a guy hired for them to advertise their stuff.

Also, like I said before first of all their website looks rubish and done in a very short time. A company that doesn't even have a good website is pretty much telling us it's either a scam or it's a shet company.
August 10, 2009 2:28:26 AM

1972523,41,462505 said:
No frozenlead you're wrong. 1GB = 1024MB
Read the whole post before you make stupid comments. The site is stating that 1GB is for RAM. Know the situation before you make stupid comments. http://www.shopl2.com/PC-How-to-build-for-gaming-s/cate... Don't believe me? What is half a gig it's 512mb. now times 2. now it's 1024mb. You fail at math too. Please use your brain before posting

Speaking of failing at maths... What's a KB? Last I checked, it was 1024 bytes, or 2 ^11. So how do MFG's keep getting away with their stupid maths? Simple... Most people are stupid, and can't convert true binary to decimal, let alone hexadecimal, so why confuse them? You, my friend, are guilty of the above. Go back to your binary to decimal conversions and please inform us of what a GB really is.
August 10, 2009 2:41:14 AM

OP: Nonsense. You don't even have to really know what you're doing! I'm proof of that. Use a $3 static strap, read the instructions in your mobo book, and take your time...maybe browse a couple tech forums for purchasing/install advice. That's all there is to it. IMO, there is absolutely no reason for a personal user to buy a pre-made computer in this day and age unless you need a laptop.
August 10, 2009 3:51:30 AM

^^ Follow the kohd... ^^

Next... martin (OP). Do not insult ones smarter than you (in the subject at hand) when you ask them for assistance. That really makes YOU look like an idiot.

After that... we know static causes problems. NO ***. Of course there is going to be things about it everywhere because IT'S A REAL PROBLEM AND WE KNOW ABOUT IT. We are just trying to tell you it is not as serious as this company is making it out to be. Like people have been saying, there are measures you can take to make your build near static-free. LanLabs is trying to say they have these super computers because they are made in a clean room. They are trying to say their computers run 40% faster than home-built computers with the same specs. This is BULL ***! When really, home built computers will be 40% LESS EXPENSIVE or perform 40% BETTER (when you spend saved money on better parts) than the pre-built crap. If you cannot see this logic you either work for them or you are an ignorant dumbass.
August 10, 2009 4:09:48 AM

" latency (the speed in which the data travels from component to component)"


wow....i always thought latency was the time you had to wait before your first packet arrives after you request it.......latency has nothing to do with speed.....speed=throughput, latency=delay


glad these experts know what they're talking about
August 10, 2009 4:35:08 AM

You guys do realize, the OP left because he thinks we're all retards.
August 10, 2009 4:48:40 AM

Stop posting in this ..you do not want noobs coming here and believing what the stupid company is saying. Drop this thread and move out because it is 99% a marketing tactic. In the end we all know the OP is probably hired by them. All leave this thread.


Quote: Im sorry.. You guys r idiots. When confronted with an educated argument you say "no".

Also lol stupid OP tries to insult us "experts/pros" saying we don't know our stuff. When he started the noobest question ever.

ALL STOP POSTING ON THE THREAD I DON'T WANT NOOBS TO FALL INTO THIS SCAM
August 10, 2009 5:14:06 AM

Michael's Computers anyone?
August 10, 2009 10:30:06 AM

Who to believe, a forums worth of experience, or a bunch of internet retards posting on newegg?
August 10, 2009 8:40:31 PM

No..really, both are correct. Thanks for calling me an idiot and such without knowing your own facts.
The term Gigabyte is broken into a unit and an SI prefix, giga and byte which means one million times the unit, bytes, making 1000000 bytes, or 1000 Kilobytes (using a unit conversion). That's undeniable, true mathematic logic, just by going off of the way the word is formed. The 1024 number only comes into play when dealing with computers and software, where the unit is in a different number system then we're all used to being in, that being the power of 2, aka the binary system. Actually, all of the terms we use (gigabyte, megabyte) are technically incorrect - we should be using the term mebibyte, which was created to solve the logic problem from the SI prefix definition (in decimals) and the computing definition (in bits), which do NOT equate each other, but are used interchangeably.

Don't believe me?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mebibyte
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix
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