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What's with this build-up inside my WC tubing?

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October 2, 2011 1:59:50 AM

This is my second WC loop and i found out the first time that dye is a mess and is goes away eventually.

So all my tygon tubing was nice and clear when i first put it together in this picture. (different setup) Also found out that when they say bleeding a T-line is difficult, i now understand...never again.
Sorry about the picture, it's the only one i had first setup.



And this is what it looks like now. All the tubes are cloudy! although the reservoir is perfectly clear... It doesn't bother me all that much but i want to know what is causing this to prevent it next time.



I used Primochill ICE with a silvercoil.

On a second note to anyone who likes this case...NEVER use it for water-cooling...just terrible. That's why i have *** ran all over the damn case. Too much tubing.

More about : build inside tubing

a c 330 K Overclocking
October 2, 2011 2:56:57 AM

Plasticizers in the tubing and acrylic from manufacturing and/or solvents still inside your radiators that got flushed out when you ran the loop that reacted with the silicone and vinyl in the tubing.

These are 2 main causes, but you are also using a premix solution, which can sometimes also cause this.

When you drain and clean your loop next time, clean your blocks and rads with warm, soapy water and even a vinegar and water mix...and then rinse.
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a b K Overclocking
October 2, 2011 4:22:03 PM

looks kind of cool though... like frosted glass.
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a c 330 K Overclocking
October 2, 2011 4:22:29 PM

I concur.
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a c 239 K Overclocking
October 2, 2011 4:33:23 PM

The frosting is caused by electromagnetic migration of the silver coil, if you are using a pump/res combination with the coil in the reservoir move the coil as far away from the pump/res and power supply as possible.

Both the pump and power supply are producing an electromagnetic field.

Not only will it frost your clear tubing it will slowly begin plating the inside of your water block.

You really don't need the Primochill Ice and the silver coil, however the frosting in the tubing is there now but it will continue, I would be more concerned with whats going on in my water block, especially if its raw copper inside, if it's nickel plated inside you won't notice it.

The migrated plating inside your water block, is a direct confirmation that the silver is migrating, and looking at the frosting already showing, you should also find it in the water block.

I'm not trying to discount rubix_1011's explanation as it could be that also, I'm just relating my own experience and researching to see if electromagnetic migration was even possible and it is with colloidal silver and gold.

I removed the coil from a newly setup test machine and it stopped, so I myself believe that's what is causing it, it happens fairly fast too.
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a c 330 K Overclocking
October 2, 2011 11:11:52 PM

Quote:
I'm not trying to discount rubix_1011's explanation as it could be that also, I'm just relating my own experience and researching to see if electromagnetic migration was even possible and it is with colloidal silver and gold


I'm open to a lot of ideas...I had forgotten this was one we'd discussed recently. I'd like to see if anyone can easily recreate the issue with and without the killcoil in the res of a Rasa kit...I'd like to see tests done...if you could get 3 separate pump/res's and do this, you could do the following:

pump/res + killcoil in the res...maybe a single block in a test loop (to determine if copper is needed for this to happen)

pump/res + killcoil at furthest distance in loop; copper block like loop #1

pump/res, no killcoil and copper block.

You could also perform a couple other tests: killcoil in res, but no copper block to see if you still get cloudiness; add PTNuke to see if this causes any additional catalyst to the cloudiness in with/without killcoil in res vs. current findings.

The OP is running a MicroRes...however, I don't see the killcoil in it.

OP- where is your killcoil in relation to your pump?
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a b K Overclocking
October 3, 2011 1:29:38 AM

I'm running PT Nuke and distilled (no coil) and got the same cloudy look, though I'm not sure it's to the same degree - I can't see through my tubing. I could see a little bit in my blocks, since they did seem to get a little cloudy.

My guess is the tubing - Primochill Pro LRT smells very plastic-y.


@OP: I'm curious about how you have your loop set up. Are you just cooling the CPU? What rad(s) do you have in there? I recently WCed my RV02, but I didn't know if it was a similar procedure in the RV02-E, since they made some changes that compelled me to not get the white RV02-E (even though it looks awesome - would've gone well with my white tubing :) )[/i]
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October 3, 2011 2:29:30 AM

Thanks for for all the replies.

The CPU block is the Koolance 370, which is not copper? Nickel plated perhaps?



The tubing is my usual choice of Tygon.

The setup is as follows
MCP-655 -> CPU block -> Black Ice GT Stealth 360 Radiator -> Swifttech Micro-Res -> Silver Coil immediately after Res -> back to pump

The coil is a good 2'+ of tubing away from the pump.

@boiler1990

What changes did they make to the RV02E? I know all of my penetrator fans are broken. Started clicking...click...click...FAIL. I even had a whole blade break off.

I also am kind of dissapointed with the cooling performance of this setup. My old one was much better.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/254991-29-first-liqui...

Then again it could be because i was using a 3-core vs the 6-core now...
Running Prime95 now and it's hovering around 39C NOT overclocked
The old setup could cool that X3 720 to 30C with it at it's max OC of 3.7GHz w/ 1.472V
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a c 239 K Overclocking
October 3, 2011 2:46:00 AM

rubix_1011 said:
I'm open to a lot of ideas...I had forgotten this was one we'd discussed recently. I'd like to see if anyone can easily recreate the issue with and without the killcoil in the res of a Rasa kit...I'd like to see tests done...if you could get 3 separate pump/res's and do this, you could do the following:

pump/res + killcoil in the res...maybe a single block in a test loop (to determine if copper is needed for this to happen)

pump/res + killcoil at furthest distance in loop; copper block like loop #1

pump/res, no killcoil and copper block.

You could also perform a couple other tests: killcoil in res, but no copper block to see if you still get cloudiness; add PTNuke to see if this causes any additional catalyst to the cloudiness in with/without killcoil in res vs. current findings.

The OP is running a MicroRes...however, I don't see the killcoil in it.

OP- where is your killcoil in relation to your pump?


http://electrochem.cwru.edu/encycl/art-m01-magnetic.htm

I already provided a link that the process of electromagnetic migration was possible, and here it is again, and that's good enough for me if you want to run all those tests, knock yourself out.

As far as the location of the coil the whole computer is overlapping magnetic fields, produced by every fan, the water pump, the power supply, graphics card, etc.

So it really isn't going to matter about the coil location, I just know for a fact with my own setup with the coil in 2 weeks I had the frosting, with the coil moved completely away from magnetic fields, no frosting.

With the same Rasa pump/res setup with no coil in it at all, no frosting has occured.

You would expect some residue inside the tubing to form after running for 6 months, but after 2 weeks, something else is going on.
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a c 330 K Overclocking
October 3, 2011 1:39:46 PM

I read through it...pretty interesting to think we all have always said to put the killcoil in your reservoir for years and years. However, I've had this happen to me in the past and I don't run a killcoil...but I'm thinking mine is due to other things going on.

I'd run all those other tests if I had the time and resources. (I do have enough components to set up a mock loop with older parts...I just don't really want to) :) 

Maybe...if I had enough push from the community, I'd consider doing it. I have about 5 PSUs laying around to jumper, an old MCP350, at least 4-5 blocks, several old rads and a micro-res or 2...hell...maybe I will.
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a c 239 K Overclocking
October 3, 2011 4:29:43 PM

@rubix_1011

I tried a little experiment to test the magnetic field by using a standard magnetic compass, the Rasa pump by itself not powered up has a strong magnetic field, it pulled the compass needle from 360 to 310 degrees, with the computer powered it pulled from 360 to 315 degrees.

The compass needle begins to be affected by the pumps magnetic field as far as 9" outside the case.

A case fan with the system powered or unpowered pushes the needle away to 60 from 0 degrees, I would imagine the windings are responsible for one pulling and the other pushing the needle.

So the Rasa pump is producing a significant electromagnetic field, so all the elements are there for electromagnetic migration, a strong electromagnetic field, flowing liguid, and the silver coil.

Don't ask me what all this means, and how the metal migrating happens, I don't have a clue, and neither do they in the article I linked.

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a c 330 K Overclocking
October 3, 2011 4:37:15 PM

I actually am going to do some experimenting with it...I decided it would give me something to work on long-term that I don't have to tinker with day in and day out. It's going to take me at least a month or so to compile all the data I want with each test being run at least a week, 24/7, maybe 2 weeks per test.

If I had more gear, I could run more than one test at a time, but I'll make do this way for now. I need to write up some test theories in the meantime before I actually setup a makeshift test bench for this.
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a c 239 K Overclocking
October 4, 2011 2:41:16 PM

Probably should never have used a killcoil with Primochill Ice in the first place, the quote below is from Primochill's website.

Quote:
USAGE NOTES:

* Low Conductivity : As with all Low-Conductive fluids, PC PURE can become more conductive if it comes in contact with excessive dust or other fluids that may be conductive. The Low-Conductive aspect of PC PURE is used as a safety measure only. It is always a good idea to keep your system clean and free of dust, especially in a water cooled system. PrimoChill is not responsible for any hardware damage. Use at your own risk.

**DO NOT MIX: PC PURE includes an Anti-Microbial agent, we do not recommend mixing any other anti-algae or anti-microbial agents with the PC PURE fluid, this includes Liquid Utopia. Adding additional agents will cause a chemical reaction with the agent currently in the fluid. It is not dangerous, it will just cause the fluid not to operate at maximum levels and may cause unwanted build up.
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a c 330 K Overclocking
October 4, 2011 2:52:25 PM

Odd if it reacted with the killcoil, as that seems to be the only other additive used (didn't mention PTnuke or other biocide, etc). However, I'm not convinced that any additive doesn't do this on its own...and the fact that it's Primochill ICE...leads me to believe it's supposed to look like that...frosted.

Thoughts?
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a c 239 K Overclocking
October 4, 2011 2:56:43 PM

rubix_1011 said:
Thoughts?


Yes, Lately SciFi movies are really lame. :lol: 
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a c 239 K Overclocking
October 4, 2011 3:12:28 PM

rubix_1011 said:
Plasticizers in the tubing and acrylic from manufacturing and/or solvents still inside your radiators that got flushed out when you ran the loop that reacted with the silicone and vinyl in the tubing.


Just Curious, You got any links verifying this?

I'd like to read up on it.
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a c 330 K Overclocking
October 4, 2011 3:15:42 PM

I'd have to look...I had a couple from a while back...I need to see if I can find them.

http://www.geocheminc.com/pvcfaqplasticizers1.htm
http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=987#_Plasticizers
http://books.google.com/books?id=wI6cgd4xKRAC&pg=PA265&lpg=PA265&dq=plasticizers+in+silicone&source=bl&ots=CMoU248Jex&sig=41foRmiJWaZ_k9PsQBbLKygvVLg&hl=en&ei=syOLTqbdNJTJsQLapdm3BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=plasticizers%20in%20silicone&f=false

Basically, plasticizers are added to vinyl, PVC and silicone to promote flexibility, decrease permeability and increase UV resistance and longevity, but often can react in minimal situations with environment materials.
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a c 239 K Overclocking
October 4, 2011 3:45:43 PM

I know what plasticizers are.

I really meant a link to establish your statement as a whole, as being a viable possibility that's actually causing the frosting effect.
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a c 330 K Overclocking
October 4, 2011 4:20:50 PM

It's based on the plausibility that these additives react with coolant/water/residues from radiators and cloud the tubing over time. Again, I'd have to see if I can find the 1-2 links I had, but most of it was theoretical proposal.
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a c 239 K Overclocking
October 5, 2011 12:34:57 PM

^ IC
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October 6, 2011 3:51:41 AM

Maybe i could test it by filling a tube with the Primochill and the coil and one without and see how long, if ever, the build up will occur.
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a c 190 K Overclocking
August 12, 2012 7:56:57 AM

Hmm, see that blue/green ring on the inside of the primochill tube? thats verdigris from copper, theres more than just the frosting going on in your loop to my eyes,
lose the P.Ice, clean and flush everything and install the K.coil as far as possible fom the pump with just plain distilled water, a month or so at that should show up any more issues if they occur (Uv light is my anti-bac of choice, although I do have four killcoils in my loop as well)
Moto
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a c 190 K Overclocking
August 12, 2012 7:57:43 AM

Doublepost sorry,
Moto
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August 12, 2012 9:20:58 AM

sorry, i should have posted that there was blue dye in there.

I didn't know when i bought the primochill that it has dye in it already. That's what i get from a local shop which happened to be highly overpriced too.
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a c 190 K Overclocking
August 12, 2012 9:31:04 AM

Maybe it is residue from dye then, only way to rule that out is new tubing and clean blocks/rads out and try again
Moto
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a c 239 K Overclocking
August 12, 2012 12:48:45 PM

That blue/green would have to be a reaction with the fitting coating breaking down exposing the copper and the 2 reacting together in close proximity, it shouldn't be just the copper itself as his water block, I'm sure, is copper inside and it should have blue/green traces inside the block, if it's a common reaction.

My RadBox has no killcoil, steam distilled water and 1 separately dissolved AC Pan Tablet strained and poured into the reservoir with very little hazing developing at all.

Versus serious quick hazing developing with the killcoil from past experience.

With the pump within the reservoir setup like the XSPC and a killcoil in the reservoir complete hazing over inside the tubing can occur in as little as 2 weeks.

The AC Pan Tablets are covered in the below ambient sticky, they add a nice blue tint to the water and keep critters in check.

My 2 cents! Ry

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a b K Overclocking
August 12, 2012 6:00:32 PM

If you are willing to use a premix any way to secure your system I have been using a mix for years that does not cause build up in the blocks but will stain your tubing green 3% water wetter 17% antifreeze and 80% distilled water I have used this mix for 12 + years and have had no issues with it.
Today I use a mix of 3% water wetter 97% distilled water and 3 drops of HTH super extended algae guard I have not used this mix long enough to recommend it yet but seems to work fine so far for the first month.







this is after six years of use
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a c 190 K Overclocking
August 14, 2012 6:16:37 AM

I don't know about hazing Ry, my tubings black :) 
I like this 'Radbox' though :p 
Moto
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a c 239 K Overclocking
August 14, 2012 1:52:53 PM

Motopsychojdn said:
I don't know about hazing Ry, my tubings black :) 
I like this 'Radbox' though :p 
Moto


Out of sight out of mind, that's one way to deal with it. :) 

The hazing is really just unpleasing if you're running the clear tubing for the see through visual effect, then becomes a little on the irritating side when transparent slowly becomes translucent as the hazing builds inside the tubing resulting in visual bummer.

I would imagine that's why a lot have gone to solid color tubing to take total control over the overall looks.

The hazing does become an actual problem if it sluffs off the wall in sheets and blocks the flow of any of your water blocks.

That happened to me when I first started using the AC Pan Tablets, once I reached a high enough concentration of the AC Pan Tablets to water the hazing started to actually sluff off the tubing walls in sheets forcing me to clean the tubing out and open and inspect the water blocks.

Since then even with a killcoil in the loop still using the AC Pan Tablets my tubing is clear.

With the AC Pan Tablets there is no hazing building inside the tubing walls?

The whys and wherefores, I have no flipping idea, it just works!

Pictures are worth more than words

Before using AC Pan Tablets

After using AC Pan Tablets

Home Depot stocks the AC Pan Tablets if they didn't work I surely would not be recommending them.

For a closed loop the concentration is important, I would start with two tablets pre-dissolved and then strained and poured into the reservoir, it does not harm tubing, metals, pumps, plastics, or rubber seals, but does harm the critter population!

You can use them with a killcoil in the loop or without, works either way.

Official statement, I in no way work for the AC Pan Tablet company, I've just stumbled on something that not only controls the critter growth in the distilled water but also retards the haze forming inside the tubing. Ryan
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a b K Overclocking
August 14, 2012 2:25:51 PM

yea i did the same with the norprene tubing, but i know what is going to happen on the inside of the tubing so i do not need to see it anymore.
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a c 239 K Overclocking
August 14, 2012 3:17:54 PM

toolmaker_03 said:
If you are willing to use a premix any way to secure your system I have been using a mix for years that does not cause build up in the blocks but will stain your tubing green 3% water wetter 17% antifreeze and 80% distilled water I have used this mix for 12 + years and have had no issues with it.
Today I use a mix of 3% water wetter 97% distilled water and 3 drops of HTH super extended algae guard I have not used this mix long enough to recommend it yet but seems to work fine so far for the first month.

]http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/2241/usedtubing004.th.jpg

]http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/684/usedtubing001.th.jpg

]http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/4166/usedtubing002.th.jpg

this is after six years of use


toolmaker_03 said:
yea i did the same with the norprene tubing, but i know what is going to happen on the inside of the tubing so i do not need to see it anymore.


That does not surprise me after seeing your history of what all you've added to your water in your quest for the ultimate automotive cooling supremacy, but it does matter to me, and the OP of this thread, and some others that will be reading it.

Some of us actually like the clear tubing, and just because you cannot see it forming anymore, doesn't mean it's not happening, out of sight out of mind.
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a c 239 K Overclocking
August 14, 2012 3:44:02 PM

toolmaker_03 said:
What do you mean the http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml...
That he is already using is like water wetter and distilled water mix. I was providing alternatives that do not cause build up in the system.


You missed the word, and the word you missed was history!

History not relating to this thread, but previous threads, when you shared your anti-freeze cooling additives!

Remember?

By the way, What turned those 6 year old tubes green?
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a b K Overclocking
August 14, 2012 3:47:56 PM

the antifreeze caused it but it did not cause build up it is a stain you cannot wipe it out of the tubing and the antifreeze did not stain the metal or the inside of the block so it did not bother me that much I did drop the antifreeze from my mix since I have been here and I could go distilled but I am too scared of corrosion to do that maybe one day I will build a loop with this idea in mind but not today.

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a c 239 K Overclocking
August 14, 2012 5:15:04 PM

toolmaker_03 said:
the antifreeze caused it but it did not cause build up it is a stain you cannot wipe it out of the tubing and the antifreeze did not stain the metal or the inside of the block so it did not bother me that much I did drop the antifreeze from my mix since I have been here and I could go distilled but I am too scared of corrosion to do that maybe one day I will build a loop with this idea in mind but not today.


Regarding first underline;

I'm well aware the tubing is stained!

Regarding second underline;

Too scared of corrosion?

Distilled water does not cause corrosion?

Whatever you add to distilled water could cause corrosion, but I know of no cases that pure steam distilled water caused any corrosion?

Tap water can surely cause corrosion with all the crap that can be found in tap water, but steam distilled water is completely free of those contaminates.

Where are you getting that information from?

Most additives are to control the formation of bacteria, algae, etc., that I call critters.

In the automotive industry corrosion can be a problem because of the fluid flowing through dissimilar metals, with aluminum being one of the worst cooperative.

That's why the computer water cooling industry fully aware of this fact, designed their cooling blocks, pumps, radiators, etc. so there are no dissimilar metals that would cause a reaction and cause problems.

As far as todays computer water cooling is concerned you're living in the past with your fears, and the computer water cooling industries advancements, has long time left your fears, in the rear view mirror.

I didn't post what I've posted here to get into an argument with you, I posted what I posted, to share, and possibly help the OP!
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a b K Overclocking
August 14, 2012 5:21:41 PM

yea, I still have old aluminum top blocks and the springs in the loop are aluminum as well so yes I am still in the past haven’t removed all the issues from my loop yet.

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a c 239 K Overclocking
August 14, 2012 5:50:28 PM

Do you still have a hand crank to crank your car? :lol: 

Jking!

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