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Experiment- Does a kill coil and electromagnetism cloud tubing?

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a c 324 K Overclocking
October 12, 2011 1:45:33 AM

Alright guys-

I decided to try and test out some theories to help identify the causes of cloudiness in a watercooling loop. I will be using the following components in every test:

MCP350 (also found my old 80mm Swiftech radiator from my very first kit :)  )
1978 Chevette heater core (yep, actually used this on an old P3/P4 system)
Danger Den TDX (non-multicore version)
Swiftech micro res
Plain, cheap-o hardware store vinyl tubing
All tubing/fittings are 3/8"ID- native to the MCP350 pump barbs

Since I would assume since it is the lowest quality tubing you can buy, it will (theoretically) be the easiest to initially test whether or not that electromagnetic migration caused by the electromagnetic fields from the pump and/or PSU will cause silver from the kill coil to move throughout and deposit inside the loop. I am going to run each configuration 7 days, 24/7 and evaluate blocks and tubing at the end of each run.

I am planning to test the following setups to help determine if and where the issue lies:

1) Baseline control test. Nothing but distilled water in the loop.

2) First test. Kill coil inside the tubing, as close to the pump as possible, to mimic similar pump/res setups such as the Rasa kits.

3) Second test. Kill coil inside the tubing as far away as possible from the pump and PSU.

For both tests with the kill coil, I will be setting up the loop to position both the pump and PSU next to one another in order to isolate all of the electromagnetic fields for both the first and second kill coil tests- this is to maintain a control variable that neither one or the other of the electronic components might cause more/less of the electromagnetic field during the test and to allow them both to impact each test in the same manner.

#---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------#


First test: the control test.



After a week of distilled only- this is the result and condition of the tubing:



It has a 'film' on the inside of the tubing which can be easily wiped off, but regardless...still exists (red box). The image on the right is a comparison of the tubing that just came off the loop (top), and the unused tubing (bottom).


#---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------#

Now, on to the distilled + killcoil close to the pump and PSU-




After another week of 24/7 running, the tubing was slightly clouded; the 'film'... like before:


However- I did notice cloudiness inside the acrylic of the water block. This looked very similar to the cloudiness inside the tubing:


Also, a comparison of the tubing used- the initial control test, the killcoil test next to the pump and PSU, and unused tubing:



#---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------#


The final test in the initial testing roundup- the killcoil furthest away from the pump and PSU.




Now...on to the last 168 consecutive hours of loop testing (give or take a couple).

#---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------#
a c 324 K Overclocking
October 12, 2011 1:45:51 AM

#---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------#

Alright- the last week of my testing is completed. I am seeing some interesting things that I want to potentially retest, but we'll talk about that in a moment.

As you can see, the 3rd week of the killcoil being far from the pump and power supply resulted in the same filmy residue we saw each week. This was something I was expecting as it has been a constant for all three different tests.


Now, for some interesting comparison photos. I placed the tubing from the tests as I have throughout- in order. If you have trouble reading the markings, the top is the initial 'control' test of 1 week of just distilled in the loop only. The second piece of tubing down is the week where I placed the killcoil right next to the pump inlet and placed the pump on top of the PSU to maximize any electromagnetic current effect. The third piece of tubing is the last week of testing, the kill coil placed far from both the pump and PSU (which was about 2 1/2 feet or so) giving a somewhat realistic placement of the far reaches of an actual loop. The bottom piece of tubing is unused vinyl 3/8"ID that has not been used (yet :)  )

Here is where it gets interesting:


As you can see, both pieces of tubing with the killcoil seem to be significantly more cloudy. I'm not sure if this was due to the actual tubing used- weeks 2 and 3 both used the tubing cut from the same spool at the hardware store, whereas week 1 was tubing that I already had on-hand. Regardless, you can clearly see some differences between all pieces shown.

The next photo is the exact same shot, but I used the flash on my Canon XS:


There is a more defined difference between the control test and the 2 killcoil tests. If you look closely, you can also see that week 2, killcoil close to the electromagnetic field producing pump and PSU, seems to be even more clouded with the 'film' than week 3, furthest from the pump and PSU.


#---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------#


Conclusion (for now...)

My observations show that placing the killcoil close to an electromagnetic field source such as a pump or power supply appears to cause additional 'clouding' of the tubing over scenarios where the killcoil is placed further from these sources. Furthermore, omitting the killcoil from the loop decreases cloudiness in the tubing significantly less than the killcoil being present in the loop at all; regardless of placement. This test was only done with low quality, clear vinyl tubing that you would find at your local hardware store. I highly expect the same results would also be present on higher quality tubings, and would expect reasonable, exponential scaling either with increased or decreased results, depending on tubing brand.

Further considerations outside the scope of this test:

1) Killcoil silver (.999+) may react slightly with copper and brass from the water block and radiator (heater core) causing some of the tubing cloudiness.

2) Tubing- it is possible that having tubing from different retail/production sources might impact the outcome.

3) Temperature- ambient temperatures in the testing environment could possibly have an impact on the outcome. Week 1 saw somewhat warmer temperatures, where week 2 was somewhat cooler and week 3 saw cooler ambients, still.

a c 190 K Overclocking
October 12, 2011 1:49:08 AM

I put money on the coil far from the pump lasting longer/ failing less :-)
Moto
Related resources
a c 324 K Overclocking
October 12, 2011 2:20:38 AM

I just want to see if I can recreate the issues we believe to be happening when a killcoil is close to electromagnetic currents, such as near pumps, etc. Curious to see how this will turn out...and had fun finding all this old stuff I used to use. This little MCP350 still runs like a champ...but remembered it suffered from needing the 'bump' to start at times...which it did tonight. Seriously...who around here ever ran 80mm rads? My first kit had this pump, a slug of copper with 'Swiftech' written on it, and an 80mm rad...80mm? And just one?. Man, I just realized...I've been doing this a long time...
a c 205 K Overclocking
October 12, 2011 2:26:07 AM

80mm? Did you get that from Noah. :lol: 

All joking aside don't forget the Rasa pump is inside the reservoir completely surrounded by the liquid.
a c 190 K Overclocking
October 12, 2011 2:28:21 AM

Hehe, its good that us new guys have the experience to call upon I say, plus you still have that 'what if' nature that pushes you
If you can recreate it, then you can start to minimise/prevent it true tinkering man, proud of ye :-)
Moto
a c 205 K Overclocking
October 12, 2011 11:20:16 AM

Are you going to use new tubing between the tests or clean the used tubing?
a c 324 K Overclocking
October 12, 2011 1:18:49 PM

Quote:
Are you going to use new tubing between the tests or clean the used tubing?


I'm going to use all new tubing for each round of testing (another reason I chose cheap, hardware store vinyl tubing).

Quote:
All joking aside don't forget the Rasa pump is inside the reservoir completely surrounded by the liquid.


Yeah, I know...But I don't have a pump/res combo like the Rasa kits do, so I'm going to put the killcoil inside the tubing as close to the pump as possible to hopefully reproduce this issue to some degree.

All I know is that this little pump is pushing some insane flow. Also to note...the heat dump by the pump is fairly substantial- the heatercore is warm to the touch after running a couple hours...after all night it was cooler, but likely because my garage got chilly overnight.
a c 205 K Overclocking
October 12, 2011 1:31:48 PM

That should do it reproducing the results, if you have a magnetic compass the needle from the Rasa pump is affecting the compass needle as far as 10" away from the pump.

You should be getting a similar field range with the pump you're using a 10" radius or 20" diameter magnetic field, all the pumps should be producing a similar field.
a c 324 K Overclocking
October 12, 2011 1:35:08 PM

I can always get a cheap compass to test. Also going to keep the pump and PSU relatively close together for both of the killcoil tests in hopes to maximize the magnetic field in that area.
October 12, 2011 10:58:37 PM

Nice, rubix. Looking forward to the results. :D 
a c 190 K Overclocking
October 15, 2011 4:52:41 PM

/Wonders about the benefits of wrapping the pump in tinfoil to EM shield the Rig :p 
Moto
a c 205 K Overclocking
October 18, 2011 3:50:26 PM

@moto That's supposed to also work against aliens tracking you from space! (Wear a Tinfoil Hat) :)  :lol: 

@rubix How's the testing coming?
a c 324 K Overclocking
October 18, 2011 4:26:55 PM

Working on the killcoil tests now...close to pump/PSU. Been running since about noon on Saturday and haven't seen anything to report on. Otherwise, it's just a setup and wait kind of deal.
a c 190 K Overclocking
October 18, 2011 4:42:06 PM

Cool, research takes time so no rush man hehe
@Ryan, we have swipecards at work and people had them in wallets so the company was getting peoples bank details etc when they clocked in apparently,
My wallet is made from duct tape and has shielding built in lol, so my pass is on an outside pocket and my other cards are safe :p 
Aliens have no chance against me haha
Moto
a c 205 K Overclocking
October 18, 2011 5:04:57 PM

^ :lol: 
a c 324 K Overclocking
October 18, 2011 5:34:13 PM

Duct tape wallet? Sounds like someone was the victim of a workplace prank. :) 
a c 205 K Overclocking
October 18, 2011 6:14:50 PM

Duct Tape, the all purpose fix all!

I knew a doctor that duct taped his front lower cowl back on his White Mercedes with silver duct tape that his wife had damaged, and made her drive the car like that for 2 months before he had it fixed.

I think he was trying to make a point with her about driving more responsibly, but he lost that point in the end, when she opted for the Mercedes SUV, he would have been better off to have fixed it right off, IMO.

But the duct tape held for 2 months! :lol: 
a c 190 K Overclocking
October 18, 2011 6:37:38 PM

Nope, My old wallet died and I couldn't find one I liked as replacement so I duplicated it in the black stuff

Heres my staff card :) 

card slots, side pockets, its got it all including a window showing emergency medical info for the Gf

bit off topic but seeing as you asked :) 
Moto
a c 324 K Overclocking
October 18, 2011 6:50:47 PM

Way to hijack my thread. :)  Not much else going on in this thread anyways...this is like a 3+ week project, depending on the results I get.

BTW...I always enjoy seeing foreign currencies...they look so interesting.
a c 190 K Overclocking
October 18, 2011 6:58:46 PM

Hehe, thats the only way I'm seeing any paper money till payday lol
but thats a Five pound Gbp note
Moto
a c 324 K Overclocking
October 30, 2011 1:36:03 AM

Completed my 3 weeks of testing- final results are posted. Open to all feedback or suggestions.

Thanks everyone!
a c 190 K Overclocking
October 30, 2011 3:02:14 PM

Loving the Portal icon there man :p 
Now that the testing is over will there be cake?
I'm surprised to see the differences but it would seem that no killcoil is a more viable option, which leaves the anti-algae market open to debate,
PT Nuke all round?
or UV light<My preference

I think that the mix in tubing may be a vital factor though unless you can ascertain they are identical
and as you say the ambient variations may also have affected things,
you need a sponsor with facilities for controlling the environment :) 
and maybe run all the tests concurrently, drop the time factor down too
Moto
a c 205 K Overclocking
October 30, 2011 3:22:19 PM

I'm presently running 2 killcoils in My Sandy Bridge Water Cooling Project, with minor frosting, however they are no where near any electromagnetic fielding.

One is in the beginning of the feed line a full 14" away from the pump, (The nearest electromagnetic field), the other at the end of the return line approximately 36" from the pump.

Good work with your testing!
a c 324 K Overclocking
October 30, 2011 5:37:40 PM

I'm actually running a validation test on the tubing using new tubing for longer runs of 2 weeks straight with killcoil right by the pump and another test with distilled only. I want to see if I can reproduce the outcomes or determine if they were flawed.
a c 190 K Overclocking
October 30, 2011 6:13:51 PM

Good job that man :) 
Science demands your stringent application of rigidity in testing criteria,
Don't let science down!
Moto
November 3, 2011 4:51:05 PM

That's an interesting test. Good Job.

Is this clouding of the tubing seen in a lot of water cooling setups?

I'd venture to say it probably is. Since all poly (plastic) type tubing carries with it, a natural electrostatic charge.
This charge is highest when it is new. Less so as it ages in the environment it resides in and is not recharged by any additional physical handling.

As miniscule amounts of misc particles (bromides, calcium, etc) in the water begin to circulate through the tubing, they begin to become attracted to the electrostatic charge and begin to collect upon the inner surface of the transport medium. Add to this the additional fields each electron of those particles can generate themselves with excitation through a pump -- and the result will speak for itself.

Interestingly though, one can mittigate a great deal of this. Not all, but most of the natural electrostatic charging of the tubing.

Of all the ones I can think of for this application, the easiest may be to contact wipe the outer surface of the tubing - with a plain shamois.
This does two things. It creates an ionic field that pulls most of the electrostatic charge away from tubing and it serves to align the orientation of the ES field along the parallel of the tubing walls. This will greatly reduce (but not eliminate) the collection interaction phenomena. Polarization is greatest where interacting fields are perpindicular to one another (at 90 degrees). If the orientation of the two are aligned in parallel, then the interaction is vastly reduced. In enough given time, they will re-orient their charged fields to perpindicular on their own accord because after all, they are two differing physical properties with charge in an environment of chaotic (relative to scale) motion. Motion creates charge.. charge looks for equilibrium, and in the balance of natural properties (collection) exists. This is nature.

But yeah. Wipe these along their length on occaison and reduce their interactive electrostatic charging effect..

There are some commercial chemical treatments available that address such things but that may be overkill for the application since the tubing can occasionally be replaced. Also, just in keeping with the spirit of this, it would be interesting to see if a "spiral wrap" of small jewelers wire cable on the outside of the tubing, could act as a ground plane to "actively carry" the ES charge away. Hmm? Works in aircraft systems with these issues.
That would be a nice next phase task.. to find out.

I'm looking forward to the thread reaching your conclusions. ;) 

**P.S. Edited for spelling mistakes I see. ..I do need a new KB..
a c 324 K Overclocking
November 3, 2011 5:05:09 PM

I think there are valid points made to electromagnetism as it seems that when the killcoil is introduced into the field produced by the pump and power supply, the clouding of the tubing increased, and was slightly more evident with the killcoil close to the fields than when further away from it. I am really thinking about tweaking this test a little more and starting over this weekend to try and eliminate as many variables as I possibly can.

However- in reading through these ideas, I can't see how tubing that is filled with water and otherwise grounded would carry such a difference in overall result when the only thing I really changed was whether or not the killcoil was actually present in the loop. I'm actually going to remove the other components from the loop to isolate the loop to the pump and PSU (obviously) and the reservoir and tubing. This would eliminate any possibility that other metals in the block or heater core are contributing to any of the conditions seen (and allow me to use about 75 % less tubing per test :)  ). This is very intriguing and I wish I had an extra DDC pump and micro res to test both, simultaneously.
November 3, 2011 5:44:40 PM

And you are correct with those points. Any kind of electromagnetism in proximity to other ES-like fields either adds to it (complimentry) or overwhelms it (subjucation). Both however remain true to their primary ES state indifferantly unless otherwise allowed to interact or is assisted in some way to otherwise co-mingle.

In the conditions of the test. It (killcoil) would seem to act as a kind of field property additive situation of what is going to be naturally occuring anyway. And yes. You have the testing which clearly demonstrates this occurs on some level. I am (by nature) also curious as to how effective introducing a ground state.. would influence the particle deposition. Assuming of course the testing is about reducing or eliminating it.

Was it to see the resulting effect of the killcoil only? If so, then the statements I made are immaterial to the scope of your testing.

Still. I wish you best of luck.


a c 324 K Overclocking
November 3, 2011 6:15:34 PM

I really was intending to test the concept that the killcoil was the cause of the film created on the internal tubing walls, I'm guessing from ionization of the killcoil in the presence of the field. If I am able to validate that this is definitely the cause, your input has intrigued me to try grounding the loop in some manner to see if the outcomes change.

I never really thought of grounding or attempting to remove the factors that might be present as part of the tubing properties themselves, so that introduces some new variables to potentially test.
November 3, 2011 6:36:40 PM

Does clouding have the same effects on say... a higher tier tubing? Better quality?

a c 324 K Overclocking
November 3, 2011 6:42:38 PM

From what we are seeing, many users have seen this, but I'm not going to go around and drop $3/ft on premium tubing simply to test.
November 3, 2011 6:54:01 PM

Excellant work. I'd say that is the tail of the "beast". How or what the test results determine may slay it, would be most enlightening.
I never gave it much thought either until these particular test. Keep up the good work. I'm also interested to see how it evolves.

Sushi -

I would say it's all about the ES quality of any tubing. Some formulated materials has almost no charge (by design), others a very high charge. It really depends on its construction, usage and the material properties used in such construction.
November 3, 2011 6:57:34 PM

Do you think that grounding the Kill Coil will prevent clouding?

~Rubix

Aw come on, its ONLY 30$ for "Premium" Danger Den Tubing
a c 324 K Overclocking
November 3, 2011 7:36:30 PM

Feel free to purchase and have it delivered to my house, or I have a PayPal you can donate to...
November 3, 2011 7:57:27 PM

This is more about the system interaction as a "whole system". I would have to think a low ES tubing material would fair better over a longer period of time. Then like rubix has pointed out. At what point does cost influence enough benefit to justify those desired results. Its an approach which cannot be discounted. Cost/benefit ratios alone have little meaning without some other "more desirable" outcome.. and why that outcome is the major factor to justify that expense?.

This is not really an apples-to-apples consideration. But illustrates it well. Example:

Due to the type of materials say a fuel truck might need to be resistant to many usage factors. Those same very best materials can carry an ES charge on their surface quite favorably. If a charge built up over X time, and someone just connected that to an aircraft which just may have landed carrying another LARGER charge (atmospheric penetration charges) then as those two meet, those combine in a big spark as they equalize their respective charges. BOOM. No truck, no plane, no people left alive. Which is the greater consideration? The durable useful materials.. or peoples lives? Certainly its BOTH are VERY important.

So a major strength grounding cable is used in place BEFORE they get connected. The charge(s) are safely steered to a ground.
Both are "strategic assets" to address the problem.

Same thing more or less here, but with a lot less dire consequences.
a c 205 K Overclocking
November 4, 2011 2:05:08 AM

SushiDragon said:
Do you think that grounding the Kill Coil will prevent clouding?


Grounding the killcoil for what purpose?

Electricity is not directly on the killcoil how can you ground an electromagnetic field?

The electromagnetic field is what's causing the migration, along with the killcoil inside the field, in a flowing liquid.

http://electrochem.cwru.edu/encycl/art-m01-magnetic.htm
November 4, 2011 2:14:21 AM

Just a theory. :p 
a c 205 K Overclocking
November 4, 2011 2:20:38 AM

Actually it's all just a theory with results, if you read the article I linked, they know it happens but have no direct explanation as to why?
November 4, 2011 12:17:19 PM

Grounding only allows any build up of electrostatic charges to be neutralized or reduced. If - the problem is related to those types of charges.

A medium such as a fluid moving through a tube will always naturally create some kind of charge. These are dissimular elements. A natural state for the two (plastic & water) will have their own natural charge. Combined and in contact they must interact. That interaction creates a more aligned charge through polarization. If you have a surface which "naturally" tends to hold any charge (like Poly) then its very likely it will attract that charge. The deposition is encouraged by these additional additive forces which serve to make the tubing cloudy. These are minute particles which have themselves picked up additional charge due to chaotic motion by being moved through a pump, and now have found a place on the walls of the tubing (an attractive force) and will continue to do so according to their natural EM states.

If the ES state is high for the tubing (causing additional particle deposition) this serves to accelerate this more than usual, Then in that case, a ground near/around the deposition may vastly reduce it by draining off the static charge. But - it will continue to occur, just not as quickly with it than without it. "Scale" is also very important here. The charge can be sufficent to cause continuous deposition but perhaps not be large enough to be affected by any ground in proximity. We're talking some very low-potential electromagnetic properties here.. so if as is usual in electronics, the smaller something is, the harder and more expensive it is to try to actively control (due to the required precision).

I'm thinking this is as much to do with the entire system as a whole, as it is these naturally occuring EM forces. In concept - say if we could move water along a system with pure atom level precision, then the issue would be only one of putting in place a field which always repels those particles and keeps them from depositing in the first place. They could never truly interact. But hey.. Sci-Fi has predicted stranger things which are a reality today. Why not atomic scale - precision water movers? (Too much energy needed to do so perhaps)

That paper is an interesting read. However it deals with "control" processes. Static is an "uncontrolled" process and naturally occuring in nature.
Although most of the basic EM laws still apply, the basis for outcomes are differant, the environment is also with some key differances as in they are not designed (in purpose) for such control to ever be applied. It does have some aspects which may in time overlap those conditional frameworks but as it is currently, and as it is expierimentally here. It has little basis as it is, to provide a clear vector toward economical solutions.
a c 205 K Overclocking
November 4, 2011 2:49:36 PM

Your new title is: Magnetic Guru :) 
November 4, 2011 3:00:57 PM

HEHE!! No, just a physics nut. Kinda had to be.. But "thank you" for your generous comment. Good work on the paper btw.
a c 324 K Overclocking
November 4, 2011 3:03:23 PM

Are you the bad guy in the X-men movies?
November 4, 2011 4:27:37 PM

I wish. Those bucks would awesome.. No, just a guy with a few twists in life that led to doing some amazing jobs.
Those in turn have made me a better researcher, problem solver and part-time Quantum mechanics buff.
a c 324 K Overclocking
November 4, 2011 4:39:57 PM

I am just a humble Linux/Windows/Network Admin...
November 4, 2011 4:50:10 PM

And I can tell, you are good at it. It may seem odd but the more practical aspects of life intrigue me, much as this thread.
When you've spent a lot of time looking into the microcosm of existance and see the application need in real world problems - one learns to appreciate the mundane and plain-ness of the everyday and sometimes trivial pursuits. It does have merit in so many ways unappreciated.

You guys are up more on this stuff than I am. I just explain it in ways that help to "see" it better.
Kinda like BASF. I do the jobs that other people do, so that they can do their jobs -- better.

Its difficult to explain but it's a living.
a c 324 K Overclocking
November 4, 2011 4:58:41 PM

There is a lot that just goes 'accepted' in any aspect of life, but we all take for granted that at some point, it all was at the threshold of the unknown. You really have to stop and question everything you've just accepted as fact because as so much has changed over time, why wouldn't some of the fundamentals and understanding on which it is all based actually have different meanings or purpose, now?

I work for a major medical technology company and we're doing some things you can only hope come true. It's quite a remarkable thing: seeing some generalized plans and ideas being transformed into concepts, working models and then...live prototypes and working systems.
November 4, 2011 5:25:43 PM

Yeah. That is so true! There is an inherent subtlety to cutting edge stuff that gets overlooked in bias to existing facts.
I call it a state of "being so simple, its complicated". Medicine is poised to make some great challanges reality, turn those into everyday happenings.

I've been lucky to span a great many industries, science fields and occupations. I am encouraged by what is in front of the next few generations.
I wish I could know what I know now... and have chance to do it all over again and again. Its rewarding and challanging and a lot of fun.


November 4, 2011 5:56:49 PM

It must be fun to make things that other people will benefit from. Hopefully I will get a job like that someday.

Some of the things we take for granted these days were great breakthroughs in the past. :p 
a c 324 K Overclocking
November 4, 2011 6:04:18 PM

Well, I don't really make anything...I just work on servers, applications, SQL DBs, web services, network gateways and certificate functionality. The vast majority of what we do is medical software for hospitals, clinics, interfaces with devices or interoperabilty and transportation of information.
!