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Asus 295 GTX "No Longer Available"

Checked my wish list today and noticed that newegg has discontinued carrying the 295GTX saying that the product is "no longer available". Newegg know something we don't know ?

Seems odd that newegg would discontinue carrying a current major product. The $499 price will probbaly be hard to match, best I have seen elsewhere is $533.
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  1. They still have more GTX295s: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=295&x=0&y=0

    Imo, don't buy now. Wait for the ATI 58xx cards.
  2. Why buy a 295 when you could buy a 4870??
  3. Shadow703793 said:
    They still have more GTX295s: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=295&x=0&y=0

    They do have other 295 cards but I'm specifically looking for an Asus model. Been down that road too many times before where MoBo TS blames the vid card and vid card Tech support blames the MoBo.

    Imo, don't buy now. Wait for the ATI 58xx cards.


    My experience with early release cards has not been favorable nor has my experience w/ ATI Tech Support. It's kinda like the old Microsoft axiom .... it's still a beta until SP3. Not interested in wrestling with the puter work arounds while they try and get it right with the next round of driver updates. I figure by 2010, things will all settle out .
  4. FallenSniper said:
    Why buy a 295 when you could buy a 4870??


    1. A 295 is a lot faster than the 4870, even faster than two 4870 X2's in crossfire

    http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=711&pageid=8
    http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=711&pageid=15

    Overclocking the CPU makes the differences even greater.

    http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=711&pageid=17

    2. The 4870 doesn't do PhysX which is part of about 150 game offerings.

    3. The 295 does this while being much quieter and running 27 degrees C lower in temp under load. That's gotta be good for one's entire system as a whole.

    http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=711&pageid=22
  5. Best answer
    JackNaylorPE said:
    It's kinda like the old Microsoft axiom .... it's still a beta until SP3

    :lol:
  6. Shadow703793 said:
    They still have more GTX295s


    Now EVGA's top of the line oc'd model has also disappeared.
  7. JackNaylorPE said:
    1. A 295 is a lot faster than the 4870, even faster than two 4870 X2's in crossfire

    http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=711&pageid=8
    http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=711&pageid=15

    Overclocking the CPU makes the differences even greater.

    http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=711&pageid=17

    2. The 4870 doesn't do PhysX which is part of about 150 game offerings.

    3. The 295 does this while being much quieter and running 27 degrees C lower in temp under load. That's gotta be good for one's entire system as a whole.

    http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=711&pageid=22


    Lol why didn't you bring up the price?
  8. In less than a week, all these cards prices will be cut down tremendously anyways, so whats the point of buying now?
  9. FallenSniper said:
    Lol why didn't you bring up the price?


    Because price did not enter into my decision making process since my budget for a GFX card was $500 +/-.

    Nor was it mentioned in "Why buy a 295 when you could buy a 4870?? "

    Might as well have said, why buy an i7 when you could get a CPU from AMD ?
  10. JAYDEEJOHN said:
    In less than a week, all these cards prices will be cut down tremendously anyways, so whats the point of buying now?


    Not buying now. Building a machine now and installing the Windows 7 trial I have only to have to reinstall again in a month is more painful than I can bear.

    http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/270740-31-college-bound-money-spend

    I'm waiting for Win7's official release. Though ATI cards / AMD chips never interested me, I am hoping their release does prompt nVidia to dropping prices. Still, I have my doubts about a release in 4 days.
  11. Thats too bad youre stucj with slower older tech that costs more, oh well....
  12. Which 150 games are these? I think I heard of only one with significant physx (what was that, Mirrors Edge or something?)

    And the i7/AMD comparo is a little off, since the ATI cards will be faster (and I think we all agree the i7 is faster than AMD processors).
  13. JackNaylorPE said:
    Because price did not enter into my decision making process since my budget for a GFX card was $500 +/-.

    Nor was it mentioned in "Why buy a 295 when you could buy a 4870?? "

    Might as well have said, why buy an i7 when you could get a CPU from AMD ?


    I was just asking why you would buy an overpriced card.
  14. JAYDEEJOHN said:
    Thats too bad youre stucj with slower older tech that costs more, oh well....


    Vaporware don't count till it's on the shelves. And in six months after that, all the necessary driver fixes will even make it stable.
  15. EXT64 said:
    Which 150 games are these? I think I heard of only one with significant physx (what was that, Mirrors Edge or something?)


    Here's a short list:

    * 2 Days to Vegas
    * Adrenalin 2: Rush Hour
    * Age of Empires III (Mac version)
    * Alpha Prime
    * APB
    * Army of Two
    * Auto Assault
    * Batman: Arkham Asylum
    * Backbreaker
    * B.A.S.E. Jumping
    * Bet on Soldier: Blackout Saigon
    * Bet on Soldier: Blood of Sahara
    * Bet on Soldier: Blood Sport
    * Beowulf: The Game
    * Bladestorm: The Hundred Years' War
    * Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway
    * Captain Blood
    * CellFactor: Combat Training
    * CellFactor: Revolution
    * City of Villains
    * Crazy Machines 2
    * Cryostasis: Sleep of Reason
    * Dark Physics
    * Darkest of Days
    * Desert Diner
    * Dragon Age: Origins
    * Dragonshard
    * Dusk 12
    * Empire Above All
    * Empire Earth III
    * Entropia Universe
    * Fallen Earth
    * Frontlines: Fuel of War
    * Fury
    * Gears of War
    * Gears of War 2
    * Race Driver: Grid
    * Gluk'Oza: Action
    * GooBall
    * Gothic 3
    * Gunship Apocalypse
    * Heavy Rain
    * Helldorado: Conspiracy
    * Hero's Journey
    * Hour of Victory
    * Huxley
    * iFluid
    * Infernal
    * Inhabited island: Prisoner of Power
    * Joint Task Force
    * Kran Simulator 2009
    * Kuma\War
    * Magic Ball 3
    * Mass Effect
    * Medal of Honor: Airborne
    * Metro 2033
    * Mirror's Edge
    * Mobile Suit Gundam: Crossfire
    * Monster Madness: Battle for Suburbia
    * Monster Truck Maniax
    * Myst Online: Uru Live
    * Nights: Journey of Dreams
    * Nurien
    * Open Fire
    * Open Fire Gold)
    * Paragraph 78
    * Pirates of the Burning Sea
    * Prince of Persia
    * PT Boats: Knights of the Sea
    * Rail Simulator
    * Red Steel
    * Rise of Nations: Rise of Legends
    * Robert Ludlum's The Bourne Conspiracy
    * Roboblitz
    * Sacred 2
    * Shadowgrounds: Survivor
    * Sherlock Holmes: The Awakened
    * Showdown: Scorpion
    * Silverfall
    * Sovereign Symphony
    * Sonic and the Black Knight
    * Sonic and the Secret Rings
    * Speedball 2
    * Stoked
    * Stoked Rider: Alaska Alien
    * Switchball
    * Tension
    * Trine
    * The Hunt
    * The Stalin Subway
    * Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter
    * Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 2
    * Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas
    * Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Double Agent
    * Tortuga: Two Treasures
    * Two Worlds
    * Ultra Tubes
    * Unreal Tournament 3
    * Unreal Tournament 3: Extreme Physics Mod
    * Valkyria Chronicles
    * Velvet Assassin
    * Warfare
    * Warmonger: Operation Downtown Destruction
    * W.E.L.L. Online
    * Winterheart's Guild
    * WorldShift

    Quote:
    And the i7/AMD comparo is a little off, since the ATI cards will be faster (and I think we all agree the i7 is faster than AMD processors).


    The problem with "will be" is that when it arrives, there's a new "will be". When the 58xx series comes out there "will be" something out later that is faster than that. We have an old PC in the house circa 1985... it has an 8088 chip which blew away the then "standard" 8086 of its day. Since then, technology always leapfrogs itself and if you are going to worry about "will be" you will never buy anything.

    There's probably some 14 year old kid that someday will beat Usain Bolt's record in the 100m dash, but like the i7 and the 295GTX, ....... today, Bolt is the fastest.

    When the top of the line 58xx comes out, and I doubt it will be Wednesday, four things are guaranteed:

    1. The dethroned former king of the hill will drop significantly in price.
    2. The top of the line 58xx will cost more than the $499 for today's GTX (Several sites are quoting $599 for the top 58xx)
    3. The drivers and even hardware will go thru several revisions, taking at least 4-6 months to stabilize and 6-12 to "top out".
    4. You won't be talking about how overpriced the 58xx is.

    Some people don't mind the frustrations of being 1st on the block to have the new thing but they call it the "bleeding edge" for a reason. I don't want to be one of those people stuck with the GFX equivalent of the i7's C0 stepping or Windows Vista
  16. The problem in your logic is that after the 5 series, it will be (for all we know at least) months before new cards. Yes a 295 is the fastest right now, but it loses the price/performance war. Anyways I just have some problems with your post... Your four guarantees are pretty flawed in my opinion....

    1. It will probably drop in price. No one knows how much it will drop though, so it's not safe to assume that it will be significant.
    2. Again, it's a probably. Your also assuming that only the top of the line 5 series is going to be better than the 295. At least that would explain why you picked it out.
    3. Maybe. Or maybe they will be on top of things and it will take a month.
    4. Haha. I always talk about how overpriced everything that's new/top of the line is.

    My point is that your so called 'guarantees' are based on assumptions. Sure, they are probable, but that's not the same as guaranteed.

    You also seem way to locked into PhysX. I wouldn't be surprised to see PhysX slowly die away anyways. Maybe get a little Havok going... StarCraft 2 anyone? Anyways I consider myself a fairly avid gamer and I've played 2 games on that list... Point in case, PhysX is not a reason to buy nvidia.

    But...it all is obviously your decision. If you want to waste money, who am I to stop you?
  17. 2 more days, and the 295 loses its crown, and its worth.
    I think it may end up being worth maybe 300$, maybe
  18. Since you know how ell these drivers are going to be, it may help everyone here to tell us your experience with ATI cards, and their drivers, so others can compare?
  19. FallenSniper said:
    The problem in your logic is that after the 5 series, it will be (for all we know at least) months before new cards........


    I don't buy "new cards" .... i like being 6 months behind the bleeding edge. I like not being stuck w/ a 920 w/ C0 stepping. I like never having had a production machine w/ Vista on it. I like not having to wrestle w/ immature drivers and "Version A" hardware. I also know I don't want cards in my box like the 4870x2 that hit 98 degrees C. If, as you say, nVidia's new cards do come out in 6 months, that makes the ATI 58xx more attractive to me as by then, all the preceding issues are resolved.

    Price is proportional to where you sit in the king of the hill game. If the 58xx is faster than the 295, then the 295 has to be sold cheaper than the 58xx.....otherwise none sell. You would think previous experience would hold people back from buying stuff "day 1" but it doesn't. People are too willing to pay big $$ so they can update their signatures w/ their new benchmarks scores. So the guy who gets knocked off the top of the pile has to over compensate pricing his product even lower than where it would otherwise be based upon "fair market value". If the 58xx sets the mark, and the 295 can hit say 85% of that mark, then nVidia simply can't sell the thing for 58xx's price x 85%. I love taking advantage of that, just like I like paying $280 for a 920 (w/ D0 stepping cause I didn't "rush out to buy") is better than paying $999 for the top of the line Intel chip.

    Yep, I love all the people who have the need to post their new benchmark scores case they suffer the cuts being on the bleeding edge when new stuff comes out. They are the push behind the hardware and driver upgrades that I will never have to deal with.

    Don't come to my door pushing "the latest and greatest thing".....when I buy it, it will be a better product, cost 2/3 or less in price and I'll have a lot less gray hairs over the experience.

    As for the PhysX don't count ....it's safe to say that more games are using PhysX (104) than DX10 (50) so by that argument, how important can DX11 be ?

    This fanboi stuff is silly, both companies have been successful successfully knocking each other of the top of the hill repeatedly over the years. The current bias is immediately apparent when one states that DX11 is critical and PhysX has no meaning. The truth is, the reverse statement is just as valid as the original .... and by that I mean very little validity. The biggest impact of DX10 has been that it boosted Vista sales by people who just needed to play Halo 3.

    These are things I think most people will accept.

    1. ATI and nVidia have been leap frogging each other for years, there's no reason to think this will change anytime soon.
    2. Today, ATI has, or will have DX11, nVidia has PhysX, each will be important to one segment of the market.
    3. Version A hardware / Driver 1 drivers will always be trumped by Version F and Driver 6.
    4. ATI must lick the heat problem in its next generation of cards or that characteristic alone will lose them some customers.
  20. Problem is, having 1000mm of core vs 330mm is going to: cause immense power usage disparity
    Cost nVidia bucketsfull of dosh just to make them compare to the 5870
    They have all that ram, all that bus and everything else thats more expensive, theyll literrally quit selling them, if all they can get is 275$ for em
  21. I meant games where Physx actually makes a difference, not where Havok would have done fine. I think that is somewhere in the single digits.

    And the last ATI day of release card I bought was the 4850. It was not overpriced at the time, had good enough drivers, and is still going strong a year plus later. Maybe it is just NVidia.
  22. JAYDEEJOHN said:
    Since you know how ell these drivers are going to be, it may help everyone here to tell us your experience with ATI cards, and their drivers, so others can compare?


    Well to take it out of the realm of personal experience. Let's look at a web site and see how many there were. The Asus site for example has 5 driver versions for their GTX 295 card and 9 for the 4870x2 but if one doesn't take off the fanboi hat, they will miss the point.

    I am not saying that one or the other is better / worse than the other because they have 5 or 9. I'm saying that when I buy and install ANY card, I don't want to be installing the only ONE on the web site. I don't want an i7 w/ C0 stepping, I don't want to be owning a GTX 260, when the 295 comes out and ..... I simply don't want a vid card on firmware "version A" and "driver 1.00"

    The fact that the GTX 295 is out and mature [read at version 5 of the driver] or 4870x2 [read version 9 of the driver] makes it more attractive to me....because the 58xx is at driver version 1 and hardware version A. Let's say the new nVidia cards come out on January 01 .... at that time the 58xx starts looking more attractive and the new nVidia's (released January 01) might garner my attention come June or so.

    Price is the other factor ...... new crap costs way more than it should and it makes no sense. It's like everyone knows that after you drive out of the dealers driveway, the value of the car drops in the toilet. Then you'll notice that they drive around for 3 months w/ the purchase sticker still stuck to their windows.

    Graphical signature images w/ benchmark scores are the equivalent of that new car sticker and personally, I don't think it's worth the cost.
  23. Do you realize thereve been bogus reports for driver issues by crazed nVidia fans?
    Ive made it a point to show up occasionally in nVidia driver failure threads just to point out it happens to both sides. Ive seen it all, and counting that all, and owning both, I consider them equally good and bad, depends on the driver.
    Now, if youre starting off with similar performance, its only bound to get better, and if the price is still high for a particular model, but still cheaper than the competitor, why pay more? And feel good knowing that improvements are going to come, cause after 6 or so driver releases, most of the low hanging fruit has been picked, and the new one will just keep getting better, while the older one has seen its best days go by
  24. JackNaylorPE said:
    Well to take it out of the realm of personal experience. Let's look at a web site and see how many there were. The Asus site for example has 5 driver versions for their GTX 295 card and 9 for the 4870x2 but if one doesn't take off the fanboi hat, they will miss the point.

    I am not saying that one or the other is better / worse than the other because they have 5 or 9. I'm saying that when I buy and install ANY card, I don't want to be installing the only ONE on the web site. I don't want an i7 w/ C0 stepping, I don't want to be owning a GTX 260, when the 295 comes out and ..... I simply don't want a vid card on firmware "version A" and "driver 1.00"

    The fact that the GTX 295 is out and mature [read at version 5 of the driver] or 4870x2 [read version 9 of the driver] makes it more attractive to me....because the 58xx is at driver version 1 and hardware version A. Let's say the new nVidia cards come out on January 01 .... at that time the 58xx starts looking more attractive and the new nVidia's (released January 01) might garner my attention come June or so.

    Price is the other factor ...... new crap costs way more than it should and it makes no sense. It's like everyone knows that after you drive out of the dealers driveway, the value of the car drops in the toilet. Then you'll notice that they drive around for 3 months w/ the purchase sticker still stuck to their windows.

    Graphical signature images w/ benchmark scores are the equivalent of that new car sticker and personally, I don't think it's worth the cost.


    I mostly agree on your point of not buying new tech on release day, but I have never had all these driver problems you talk about
  25. I feel like I have to post this link to show some price/performance for you after you dissed my 4870.

    http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/32.html

    Also the 295 is always lower than the 5870. That's on current drivers as well...
  26. JackNaylorPE said:
    When the top of the line 58xx comes out, and I doubt it will be Wednesday,


    Well, looks like you were wrong. To the best of my knowledge it is Wednesday, and you can see here that the 5870 is out and about

    http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102856&Tpk=Radeon%20HD%205870

    It's just impossible to get a hold of one :kaola:
  27. mavanhel said:
    Well, looks like you were wrong. To the best of my knowledge it is Wednesday, and you can see here that the 5870 is out and about

    http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102856&Tpk=Radeon%20HD%205870

    It's just impossible to get a hold of one :kaola:


    Let's say you can actually buy a 5870 on September 30th. If nVidia put pictures on newegg w/ specs and pricing today and just an auto-notify button but you couldn't actually buy one till January 1st, would we say that the 300 and 5870 "came out on the same day" ?

    then again, this dude says he has it:

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161301&cm_re=5870-_-14-161-301-_-Product

    "It even out performs the 4870 X2 and the 295 in some games!! "

    Some games ?????

    Not the big deal it was supposed to be:

    http://www.techspot.com/review/198-ati-radeon-hd-5870-review/

    http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2009/09/23/ait-radeon-hd-5870-1gb-review/9

    "The difference between the two cards is DirectX 11 support, a fair whack less electricity and about £55 in raw cash. If you bought a HD 4870 X2 12 months ago, be happy, because you made an awesome investment that's still more or less as fast as the new card for another few months.

    Between that and GeForce GTX 295 in a system, then the current lack of DirectX 11 games will make an upgrade far from being worthwhile. You're better off holding on to your dual-GPU card for the time being and setting some money aside for the pending release of the HD 5870 X2 or seeing how Nvidia's GT300 performs (whenever that arrives), by which point there will be more DirectX 11 games to enjoy."

    http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=783&type=expert&pid=13

    "The one caveat is that AMD has left the GTX 285 still as a relevant graphics card option and if NVIDIA lowers prices as it is expected to do, gamers not keen on DX11 or multi-monitor gaming could be convinced to sway away from AMD's new offering.

    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5870,2422-22.html

    "The board consistently beats Nvidia’s GeForce GTX 285, trades blows with the Radeon HD 4870 X2, and is sometimes able to sneak past the GeForce GTX 295."

    Looks like a great design, which will only improve as time goes buy, but as for all the advice telling people not to buy until this card comes out on 9/23.....apparently not the slam dunk we kept hearing about is it ? Those who did go ahead and buy need no longer worry about the predictions of being suddenly relegated to the slow lane.
  28. "Looks like a great design, which will only improve as time goes buy, but as for all the advice telling people not to buy until this card comes out on 9/23.....apparently not the slam dunk we kept hearing about is it ?"

    Looks like good advice to me.
  29. It's a single GPU card that performs very very closely to the 295. It's much cheaper, and with new drivers it's performance it's definitely not going to get worse. Buying a 295 now would be the stupidest thing ever...
  30. FallenSniper said:
    It's a single GPU card that performs very very closely to the 295. It's much cheaper, and with new drivers it's performance it's definitely not going to get worse. Buying a 295 now would be the stupidest thing ever...

    The same should be said of the 4870 x2, if you have one then sit back and giggle, but do not buy one now unless you need an extra heater whilst browsing the interwibble.
  31. Mousemonkey said:
    The same should be said of the 4870 x2, if you have one then sit back and giggle, but do not buy one now unless you need an extra heater whilst browsing the interwibble.


    I know that's why I bought that 3870 x2. It's so great on those cold and rainy nights...
  32. I've got a pair of 8800GT's to keep me warm and toasty but I'd like to upgrade to the superior thermal output of a pair of 275's, just in case this winter turns out to be a cold one.
  33. A safe move to say the least.
  34. Homeboy2 said:
    "Looks like a great design, which will only improve as time goes buy, but as for all the advice telling people not to buy until this card comes out on 9/23.....apparently not the slam dunk we kept hearing about is it ?"

    Looks like good advice to me.


    It is good advice.....assuming of course that:

    - You don't want the absolute fastest card you can get.
    - You don't have a thing for PhysX

    1. Today, a person struggling to meet a budget should definitely grab the 5970, though my advice would be to wait till at least hardware Rev. B.

    2. If money is no object, and you want the "top dog" , the 5870 isn't it.

    3. Anyone buying a card should look at the PhysX and DX11 Game Support Lists ....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhysX
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_11_support
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_10_support

    ..... see what tickles their fancy and make their purchase decisions accordingly.

    Anandtech summed it up best I think:

    "The easiest kind of product for us to write about is the kind that’s clearly superior to its competition. The hardest kind to write about is the kind that’s stuck in the middle. For the 5870, we have the latter case....As is often the case with a new generation of cards, we’re going to see a shakeup here in the market as NVIDIA in particular needs to adjust to these new cards.

    The catch however is that what we don’t have is a level of clear domination when it comes to single-card solutions. AMD was shooting to beat the GTX 295 with the 5870, but in our benchmarks that’s not happening. The 295 and the 5870 are close, perhaps close enough that NVIDIA will need to reconsider their position, but it’s not enough to outright dethrone the GTX 295. NVIDIA still has the faster single-card solution, although the $100 price premium is well in excess of the <10% performance premium."

    The price / performance statement is not exactly a surprise ..... all we have to do is look at the price / performance premiums for CPU's and GPU's throughout history to see that having the top dog never can be justified on a value basis. You want Intel's fastest CPU ? ..... expect to pay twice the price as the next fastest one.....nuthin' new there and nuthin' new here.
  35. So, all this changes when the x2 comes along?
    Or, better drivers? Or more newer games?
    Theres alot of holes for anyone to say exactly whats best.
    Depends on game, frequency of upgrading etc.
    Also, mobo abilities, if you have a cf capable mobo, its a no brainer as well

    The fight has just begun between the 5870 and the 295, and to declare it over is a huge mistake
  36. This outta add some fore to the argument.

    http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870_CrossFire/26.html

    SO much for the value argument .... I don't think everyone's gonna go out and buy 9500's or 4850's now :)
  37. Wow, just wow.

    Jack you are the biggest fanboy I've seen in a while, roadrunner worthy, and I don't name call much. Because a CHEAPER card MATCHES a more EXPENSIVE card and will only GET BETTER while the more EXPENSIVE card stays the SAME, then the CHEAPER card is the worse deal?!

    You say Physx is a selling point?! YOU HAVE AN I7 920!!! Turning Physx on will make you LOSE PERFORMANCE not gain it, and yes only in 2 games (mirror's edge and Arkham Asylum, the rest will make ZERO difference with or without Physx).

    You then compare that to DX11?! DX11 is the FUTURE and Physx is a GIMMICK that currently makes almost ZERO difference, unless when the nVidia card is paired with a slow CPU. Physx, in theory only since it isn't supported well enough to even do this, takes load off of the CPU as not to create a bottleneck at the expense of the GPU(s), with a good CPU, say a Phenom 920 at stock, this is unneeded. When used with an i7 920 that is overclocked it will only hurt performance and is ridiculously stupid to use.

    Look I can only put this as simply as this: Buying a GTX 295 right now, in absolutely no way, makes sense.

    The drivers for the 5xxx series are fine as of now and will get better, and the GTX 295 will also require driver updates for future games. The GTX 295 is neck and neck with the 5870, and being a single card vs. a dual card, the 5870 will more often than not give a better gaming experience because it will net higher minimum framerates, because it doesn't suffer from SLI/Crossfire scaling, which is the absolute most important benchmark, not average framerates. The 5xxx series has DX11 meaning that it isn't an obsolete card, like any other card on the market. Finally, it costs $120-$150 less.
  38. lol why is this thread still alive? Jack is in his own world so it doesn't matter what you say.

    I'm curious Jack: If I said you could have $100, or you can have $200. Which would you pick?
  39. Only if this pictures on that 100$ bill
  40. I'm paying in pennies though
  41. Wjat? Never heard of Abraham Jen-Hsun?
  42. The_Blood_Raven said:
    Jack you are the biggest fanboy I've seen in a while,.


    Countering fanboi misinformation from one side doesn't make one a fanboi for the other. Exactly how many of these posts in this thread for example are you going to still try and defend ?

    Why buy a 295 when you could buy a 4870??
    2 more days, and the 295 loses its crown, and its worth.
    Thats too bad youre stucj with slower older tech that costs more, oh well....

    That's 0 for 3 by my count.

    Based upon past experience, I have had better luck with nVidia cards than ATI. That wouldn't stop me from buying an ATI card if it could claim the "king of the hill" title. In a month I will be having the same argument with the nVidia fanboi's. Picking PC components is a numbers game, it's not a religion.

    For month's I been hearing how everyone should take their advice and wait for the 5870's as they are gonna trounce the 295's ..... it didn't happen.....get over it. So now we have crushed egos and the mantra has changed from trouncing to "best value". Why the flip flop ?

    Why was the 98 degree heat generated by the 4870x2 not an issue compared to the 295's 71 degrees and yet now that that the 5870 is out, and the 5870 has a purported small advantage, all of a sudden this is "major" ? Why the flip flop ?

    Why has there been a clamor for "waiting to September 23rd" and not the same for November 27th ? Why so afraid of letting the numbers speak for themselves and letting the purchaser decide ? Whatever argument their was for waiting from July to September must certainly hold for September to November.....no ? If the 4870x 2 being 28 degrees hotter than the 295 was not an issue, then why doesn't the same logic hold for the 5870 and 295 ?

    If someone is going to change their argument to fit whatever makes their "religion" win, then I am going to call them on it. I'll be doing the same thing in another month when the nVidia crew start.

    Quote:
    YOU HAVE AN I7 920!!!


    It's kind of a good thing to research your topic , especially before going into SHOUT mode. We have 12 machines, no 920's, no i7's, no i5's. If you paid any attention to what was actually written in this and other threads, you would know that I don't have a 920. What I have is a 920 on my wish list ... though I did have a $500 budget for my CPU so I may change by the time I pull the trigger. My existing PC plays my games good enough and I even play occasionally, and with more than enough satisfaction, on a MacBook Pro I got from school.

    This is my Dad's account btw and he's letting me use it because our ISP (optonline.net) blocks all e-mails from THG so I can't activate my own. Right now, I'm leaning towards maybe using one of my old cards and waiting for the newer cards to mature....or purchasing after XMas or even as late as February taking advantage of the usual post holiday price cuts as well as Intel's new CPU's , price cuts and new MoBo releases, hopefully some with on board SAS.

    I have watched and helped my father build a lot of machines for us as well as other people.....he's built well over 100 of em. Right now I am doing my 1st entirely solo build (he says he's "cutting the cord") and, as might be expected, am guilty of being a little anxious. If I bought a card today, I'd buy a 295 because, that is the fastest card I can buy within my $500 budget.....it's simply not an arguable point. I'm attending college and working full time while living at my parents home. My income exceeds my needs and I have more than enough money to build what I want. What I can't understand is your objection to how I spend my money ? You obviously consider the 5870 a great "value" but if I prefer the faster card "where's ya beef ?".

    I'm not interested in making images of my benchmark scores and posting them as my signatures in forums. I am interested in the actual in game experience....and I happen to like the effects that PhysX provides.

    http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=644&pgno=1
    http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=644&pgno=6#conclusion

    Many of the games I plan on playing this year have PhysX features so that is attractive to me. But if it's not attractive to others, I certainly don't have a problem with that. I had no interest in DX10 when it came out as it's big draw .... "Halo" I found "kiddie-ish". Nothing on the DX11 list interests me at this point.

    When asked to give advice, again, I look to satisfy the questioner's needs rather than my own....that in mind.....

    -The fastest card available today is the GTX 295. If a dude wants to win LeMans, don't try selling him a car that will let him take 2nd. The fastest card < 500 bucks available today is not the 5870 .

    -If a dude wants the best card for his money, then he has to first set that monetary limit and then get the best performance he can buy for that money. If that limit is $500+, my answer is get a 295 today or wait for the 5870x2 whenever it comes out .....my guess around thanksgiving as ATI will undoubtedly try and trump nVidia's release. If that limit is $400, then the 5870 is the correct answer.

    -Today, if someone wants PhysX, it's not up to me decide whether it is worth it to them or not, my only role is to tell him that he ain't gonna get it on a 5870. I don't have an emotional investment in it either way.

    -Today, if someone wants DX11, it's not up to me decide whether it is worth it or not, my only role is to tell him that he ain't gonna get it on a 295. Again, I don't have an emotional investment in it.

    -If someone is getting by with what they got and have no problems playing what they want to play, I'd say wait for both the lines / dies to top out. Don't wanna be stuck with next year's equivalent of the 4870x2 (no matter which vendor is sitting in that position) when the 295 comes out behind it. If you're gonna keep it for ayear or 2, you don't wanna be 2nd guessing yourself over that period.

    -But if you are reading these topics on the forums today, you don't wanna wait that long....so I'd say a person searching teh forums today has a purchase in mind within 3 months.

    For the "I must have a new card by thanksgiving" crowd:

    -I'm into the fastest card available under $500 and I'm into PhysX - 295
    -I'm into the fastest card available under $500, I'm into DX11 - 5870
    -I'm into the fastest card available under $500, I don't care about DX11 or PhysX - 295

    -I'm into the fastest card available under $400 and I'm into PhysX - 285
    -I'm into the fastest card available under $400, I'm into DX11 - 5870
    -I'm into the fastest card available under $400, I don't care about DX11 or PhysX - 5870

    After thanksgiving:

    All bets are off. My crystal ball says the 5870 x2 will be the king of the hill but since it is anticipated to debut at $599, it's outta the < $500 category. My guess is with Nvidia and ATI both having cards on their new die out, the older ones prices will drop in the toilet and there will be some good xfire and SLI bargains.
  43. Look I don't care what you do, you can buy a Rage3d 128 Pro for all I care, but your misinformation and bias may mislead others.

    I'll summarize this carefully:

    1. You talk as though the GTX 295 is clearly superior even when the 5870 beats it a few times and will become even faster in the coming months. Also because of the higher minimum framerate they are basically equal at this point when comparing gameplay experience and not benchmarks.

    2. You state that it is reasonable to be interested in Physx, but in reality it is not. Even if Physx worked, which it doesn't, it would not help anyone with a half-way decent CPU, IE: a CPU that would bottleneck a GTX 260.

    3. You make a point of the core temperatures of 2 vastly different cards. What you don't mention is that the temperature of the core in a GPU is not directly proportional to how much heat the card dumps into the system, that depends on the cooling design. In this regard it has been proven time and time again that the difference between the 4870 X2 and the GTX 285 is not very large. Also you are correct, the 5870's temperature performance is irrelevant.

    3. You state that some people may not be care about DX11, "Nothing on the DX11 list interests me at this point", and you say that is reasonable. If nothing on the DX11 list interests you than you will not be buying any games for atleast 2 years. Also DX11 is a major improvement and is the future, it is a must for buying any card at this point over $200.

    4. You put words in my mouth that were unfair. You say that I don't believe that it makes sense to wait for the G300 release? Odd, I don't find that point anywhere in this or any thread. While your "September to November" point is valid it has one caveat, it may be February before the new G300 cards start rolling out, there is no true likely arrival time for them, just very baseless estimations.

    Buy what you will but stick to facts. I am all for waiting a little bit before jumping on the 5xxx series, but don't buy the same, and slightly lesser, card for more than the newer far more future proof alternative. Or do, just don't go and try to convince others that it makes sense and justify it by false information and baseless opinions.
  44. JackNaylorPE said:
    Countering fanboi misinformation from one side doesn't make one a fanboi for the other. Exactly how many of these posts in this thread for example are you going to still try and defend ?

    Why buy a 295 when you could buy a 4870??
    2 more days, and the 295 loses its crown, and its worth.
    Thats too bad youre stucj with slower older tech that costs more, oh well....
    Quote:
    OK, that was my comment on why would someone spnd more than 100$ for the same perf? Not hard to figure out

    That's 0 for 3 by my count.

    Based upon past experience, I have had better luck with nVidia cards than ATI. That wouldn't stop me from buying an ATI card if it could claim the "king of the hill" title. In a month I will be having the same argument with the nVidia fanboi's. Picking PC components is a numbers game, it's not a religion.
    Quote:
    Then why are you picking the loser here? Its older tech, costs 100$ or more, and doesnt have the DX11 feature set?

    For month's I been hearing how everyone should take their advice and wait for the 5870's as they are gonna trounce the 295's ..... it didn't happen.....get over it. So now we have crushed egos and the mantra has changed from trouncing to "best value". Why the flip flop ?
    Quote:
    Didnt hear that from me, and whos upset? These cards are the same, except, the one uses alot less power, is alot cheaper, has a more furure proof feature set, and runs much cooler, and thats thw 5870, so its a no brainer to buy this over the 295

    Why was the 98 degree heat generated by the 4870x2 not an issue compared to the 295's 71 degrees and yet now that that the 5870 is out, and the 5870 has a purported small advantage, all of a sudden this is "major" ? Why the flip flop ?
    Quote:
    OK, you say you know about gpus etc. If you did, you wouldnt have madethat comment. The heat is generated from power used, now which one uses more power, and how much is it that makes one sooo much more hotter than the other?

    Why has there been a clamor for "waiting to September 23rd" and not the same for November 27th ? Why so afraid of letting the numbers speak for themselves and letting the purchaser decide ? Whatever argument their was for waiting from July to September must certainly hold for September to November.....no ? If the 4870x 2 being 28 degrees hotter than the 295 was not an issue, then why doesn't the same logic hold for the 5870 and 295 ?
    Quote:
    Whats supposed to happen on Nov 27th? You know something everyone else doesnt? You have a link to whatever it is youre refering to? You wanna wait, fine, but for what?

    If someone is going to change their argument to fit whatever makes their "religion" win, then I am going to call them on it. I'll be doing the same thing in another month when the nVidia crew start.
    Quote:
    I havnt changed 1 thing Ive been saying all along, actually the 5870 is more powerful than Id thought itd be, which is as close to the 295 as it is, and with decent new drivers, itll surpass it here soon

    Quote:
    YOU HAVE AN I7 920!!!


    It's kind of a good thing to research your topic , especially before going into SHOUT mode. We have 12 machines, no 920's, no i7's, no i5's. If you paid any attention to what was actually written in this and other threads, you would know that I don't have a 920. What I have is a 920 on my wish list ... though I did have a $500 budget for my CPU so I may change by the time I pull the trigger. My existing PC plays my games good enough and I even play occasionally, and with more than enough satisfaction, on a MacBook Pro I got from school.

    This is my Dad's account btw and he's letting me use it because our ISP (optonline.net) blocks all e-mails from THG so I can't activate my own. Right now, I'm leaning towards maybe using one of my old cards and waiting for the newer cards to mature....or purchasing after XMas or even as late as February taking advantage of the usual post holiday price cuts as well as Intel's new CPU's , price cuts and new MoBo releases, hopefully some with on board SAS.

    I have watched and helped my father build a lot of machines for us as well as other people.....he's built well over 100 of em. Right now I am doing my 1st entirely solo build (he says he's "cutting the cord") and, as might be expected, am guilty of being a little anxious. If I bought a card today, I'd buy a 295 because, that is the fastest card I can buy within my $500 budget.....it's simply not an arguable point. I'm attending college and working full time while living at my parents home. My income exceeds my needs and I have more than enough money to build what I want. What I can't understand is your objection to how I spend my money ? You obviously consider the 5870 a great "value" but if I prefer the faster card "where's ya beef ?".
    Quote:
    Again, the 295 isnt the fastest card, costs more, uses more power, runs hotter, and has no DX11 which it will get slaughtered in against the DX11 cards, and only ties overall in the end, but yea, you decide, its your money, and if you wanna waste it, and have your "nVidia is superior to ATI" attitude go ahead, we obviously cant stop you

    I'm not interested in making images of my benchmark scores and posting them as my signatures in forums. I am interested in the actual in game experience....and I happen to like the effects that PhysX provides.

    http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=644&pgno=1
    http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=644&pgno=6#conclusion

    Many of the games I plan on playing this year have PhysX features so that is attractive to me. But if it's not attractive to others, I certainly don't have a problem with that. I had no interest in DX10 when it came out as it's big draw .... "Halo" I found "kiddie-ish". Nothing on the DX11 list interests me at this point.

    When asked to give advice, again, I look to satisfy the questioner's needs rather than my own....that in mind.....

    -The fastest card available today is the GTX 295. If a dude wants to win LeMans, don't try selling him a car that will let him take 2nd. The fastest card < 500 bucks available today is not the 5870 .

    -If a dude wants the best card for his money, then he has to first set that monetary limit and then get the best performance he can buy for that money. If that limit is $500+, my answer is get a 295 today or wait for the 5870x2 whenever it comes out .....my guess around thanksgiving as ATI will undoubtedly try and trump nVidia's release. If that limit is $400, then the 5870 is the correct answer.

    -Today, if someone wants PhysX, it's not up to me decide whether it is worth it to them or not, my only role is to tell him that he ain't gonna get it on a 5870. I don't have an emotional investment in it either way.

    -Today, if someone wants DX11, it's not up to me decide whether it is worth it or not, my only role is to tell him that he ain't gonna get it on a 295. Again, I don't have an emotional investment in it.

    -If someone is getting by with what they got and have no problems playing what they want to play, I'd say wait for both the lines / dies to top out. Don't wanna be stuck with next year's equivalent of the 4870x2 (no matter which vendor is sitting in that position) when the 295 comes out behind it. If you're gonna keep it for ayear or 2, you don't wanna be 2nd guessing yourself over that period.

    -But if you are reading these topics on the forums today, you don't wanna wait that long....so I'd say a person searching teh forums today has a purchase in mind within 3 months.

    For the "I must have a new card by thanksgiving" crowd:

    -I'm into the fastest card available under $500 and I'm into PhysX - 295
    -I'm into the fastest card available under $500, I'm into DX11 - 5870
    -I'm into the fastest card available under $500, I don't care about DX11 or PhysX - 295

    -I'm into the fastest card available under $400 and I'm into PhysX - 285
    -I'm into the fastest card available under $400, I'm into DX11 - 5870
    -I'm into the fastest card available under $400, I don't care about DX11 or PhysX - 5870

    After thanksgiving:

    All bets are off. My crystal ball says the 5870 x2 will be the king of the hill but since it is anticipated to debut at $599, it's outta the < $500 category. My guess is with Nvidia and ATI both having cards on their new die out, the older ones prices will drop in the toilet and there will be some good xfire and SLI bargains.

    And finally, your needs are a dual core card that costs 30% more than the competion, it runs hotter, uses more power, is louder and wont run the newest games as well, so, In that case, if those are the things you need, and Im only looking out for you, youd best buy the 295 quick, as itll soon go EOL
  45. JAYDEEJOHN said:
    And finally, your needs are a dual core card that costs 30% more than the competion, it runs hotter, uses more power, is louder and wont run the newest games as well, so, In that case, if those are the things you need, and Im only looking out for you, youd best buy the 295 quick, as itll soon go EOL


    Let's do a real cost comparision:

    System cost w/ 5870 = $ 2,390 w/ a card I can't actually buy as yet
    System Cost w/ 295 GTX = $ 2,510 for card in stock

    Total system cost difference 5%

    Yes, it runs marginally hotter, uses more power and is somewhat louder but again, why weren't those factors when comparing the 295 GTX and the 4870 x2 ????? When that was the playing field, those things didn't matter, now all of a sudden it's a major issues. With the 4870, it ran 27 degrees hotter and that wasn't a problem for ATI fans, now with a teeny temp advantage ....ooh it's major.

    I'm not saying the temp isn't an issue for me.....just not enough to give up the speed advantage ... my beef is the flip flop among the ATI fundamentalists.
  46. The_Blood_Raven said:
    1. You talk as though the GTX 295 is clearly superior even when the 5870 beats it a few times and will become even faster in the coming months. Also because of the higher minimum framerate they are basically equal at this point when comparing gameplay experience and not benchmarks.


    The consensus has been both in the reviews and in the threads that the 295 is 5 - 10% faster on average. For a 5% overall increase in system costs, it's hard to argue with sincerity that it's not a viable option.

    Quote:
    2. You state that it is reasonable to be interested in Physx, but in reality it is not. Even if Physx worked, which it doesn't, it would not help anyone with a half-way decent CPU, IE: a CPU that would bottleneck a GTX 260.


    I guess it depends on what your goals are. I am not interested in having the highest frame rates posted in my forum signature; I am interested in "immersion" . Pre-scripted animations get old real fast. A devastating weapon leaves little more than a scuff on the flimsyest of surfaces. Every enemy you kill, drops in exactly the same way. There is a total absence of realism in most game experiences which PhysX does a lot to eliminate. With PhysX, walls can be torn down, glass can be shattered into hundreds of pieces, trees and branches bend in the wind like "in real life" obeying the laws of physics, cloth tears. When things blow up, the motions of object actually have trajectories and respond to collisions according to physics.

    Reviewers have apparently had different experiences.

    http://www.hitechlegion.com/reviews/video-cards/718-evga-geforce-gtx-275-ftw-edition-review?showall=1

    "PhysX does accelerate graphics, yes, but where its real talent lies is on the way it creates a more lifelike gaming atmosphere. PhysX will immerse you into your game, with glass that actually breaks around you and truly falls into pieces. It will also enhance smoke and other objects, such as debris that might fleck off a rock when it is hit with a bullet. I had thought that when PhysX was turned on, there would be a drop in FPS, due to the GPU rendering more lifelike images, but in the games that I tested with PhysX on I did not see that at all.

    Quote:
    3. You state that some people may not be care about DX11, "Nothing on the DX11 list interests me at this point", and you say that is reasonable. If nothing on the DX11 list interests you than you will not be buying any games for atleast 2 years. Also DX11 is a major improvement and is the future, it is a must for buying any card at this point over $200.


    I don't have DX10 now and wasn't among the kiddies who ran out and upgraded to Vista so I could play Halo 3 .... didn't like Halo before. And as for the 2 year comment, it's hardly relevant as whatever card I get will be replaced by the next generation of the 4870x2 or GTX 295 when they have grown to maturity come summer or so. With a full time job, college tuition already paid, I have little else to spend my disposable income on.

    Quote:
    4. You put words in my mouth that were unfair. You say that I don't believe that it makes sense to wait for the G300 release? Odd, I don't find that point anywhere in this or any thread. While your "September to November" point is valid it has one caveat, it may be February before the new G300 cards start rolling out, there is no true likely arrival time for them, just very baseless estimations.


    I wasn't solely addressing you .... but addressing the "brand fundamentalist" approach that exists on many forums where an argument in favor of one thing based upon "the criteria A" used as a basis for all their arguments suddenly becomes irrelevant when a new player enters the market. Here we went from "don't buy the 295 cause when the 58xx comes out, it will trounce it" and the "4870x2's 27 degree C heat difference compared tot he 295 is not an issue" .... to "the 58xx is a better value" and "the 5870's advantage in heat is huge".

    Quote:
    Buy what you will but stick to facts. I am all for waiting a little bit before jumping on the 5xxx series, but don't buy the same, and slightly lesser, card for more than the newer far more future proof alternative. Or do, just don't go and try to convince others that it makes sense and justify it by false information and baseless opinions.


    I have yet to have a fact refuted:

    -The 295 is still the fastest card under $500
    -Waiting for the GTX 3xx series now makes as much sense now as waiting for the 58xx did in July.
    -I have yet to actually see a 58xx in stock anywhere ..... I can't stay up till midnight to watch for newly arrived shipments to be posted.
    -There's nothing to suggest that ATI and nVida won't continue to leap frog over one another in the future as they have in past years.

    One thing that I do find interesting however is that the 5850 in XFire seems a lot more attractive then the 5870 either as a single card or in XFire.
  47. I guess on release drivers thats true, and might, just might be true after all the driver improvements are seen on the 5870, tho IMO I doubt that very much. That being said, theyre meant for new games and old games as well. Old games? 295 may hold its own, or may not, depending on driver improvements.
    New games? The 295 will get throttled.
    Oh, and 5% is relative, so yes, its still 100$ or so
  48. Or, to put it another way, as you pointed out, only 5% more for 5-10% more (currently) perf also translates as 25% more for the card for only 5-10% perf again currently, and if we dont see at least a 10% increase due to driver improvements, thatll be a first, as well as the new games which again, itll kill the 295 in
    Oh, and dont remember your res, but if its 25x16? Then youre better off with the 5870 as well, as the 295 tanks in many games at that res, as has been seen in many benches
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