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Yellow w/ Exclamation mark very inaccurate - Delete to mak..

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Anonymous
June 13, 2005 10:29:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

I have a 140 (160GB) Directv Tivo. I have about 50 hours of programs on
there (all keep until space needed) and, on average, my To Do list
shows it will record about 13 hours a day. Why area shows showing as
may be deleted to make room for new programs when I have at least 7
days before that would happen?????

It seems to me this is way off and it would have been much better to
tell you how many hours your have left rather than having arcane
icons/msgs that don't give you accurate info. My ReplayTV tells you
what time you have left and you can adjust accordingly. I guess Tivo is
made for the masses (aka dumb people) and they thought it would confuse
people.
Anonymous
June 14, 2005 1:42:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

michaeljc70@hotmail.com wrote:
> I have a 140 (160GB) Directv Tivo. I have about 50 hours of programs on
> there (all keep until space needed) and, on average, my To Do list
> shows it will record about 13 hours a day. Why area shows showing as
> may be deleted to make room for new programs when I have at least 7
> days before that would happen?????
>
> It seems to me this is way off and it would have been much better to
> tell you how many hours your have left rather than having arcane
> icons/msgs that don't give you accurate info. My ReplayTV tells you
> what time you have left and you can adjust accordingly. I guess Tivo is
> made for the masses (aka dumb people) and they thought it would confuse
> people.

I believe that the exclamation remarks are to warn you that those
programs *could* be deleted if necessary to make room, not that they're
about to be deleted. IOW, their keep until settings have expired.

But, yes, Tivos first priority is ease-of-use. Avoidance of confusion
is a top priority..

Randy S.
June 14, 2005 6:01:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

michaeljc70@hotmail.com wrote in news:1118712594.101857.72280
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> I have a 140 (160GB) Directv Tivo. I have about 50 hours of programs on
> there (all keep until space needed) and, on average, my To Do list
> shows it will record about 13 hours a day. Why area shows showing as
> may be deleted to make room for new programs when I have at least 7
> days before that would happen?????

Because after 24 hours, the yellow icon appears. 24 hours after that, the
yellow with exclamation appears. Doesn't matter if you have another
million years of space or not.

> I guess Tivo is made for the masses (aka dumb people) and they thought
> it would confuse people.

You're confused by it, and the function is VERY clearly explained...what
does that make you?

--
Minister of All Things Digital & Electronic, and Holder of Past Knowledge
stile99@email.com. Cabal# 24601-fnord | Sleep is irrelevant.
I speak for no one but myself, and |Caffeine will be assimilated.
no one else speaks for me. O- | Decaf is futile.
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Can't find your answer ? Ask !
June 14, 2005 6:31:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

<michaeljc70@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118712594.101857.72280@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I have a 140 (160GB) Directv Tivo. I have about 50 hours of programs on
> there (all keep until space needed) and, on average, my To Do list
> shows it will record about 13 hours a day. Why area shows showing as
> may be deleted to make room for new programs when I have at least 7
> days before that would happen?????
>
> It seems to me this is way off and it would have been much better to
> tell you how many hours your have left rather than having arcane
> icons/msgs that don't give you accurate info. My ReplayTV tells you
> what time you have left and you can adjust accordingly. I guess Tivo is
> made for the masses (aka dumb people) and they thought it would confuse
> people.

It's not saying they will be deleted, just that they are eligible. I've had
some shows in that state for months at a time.
Anonymous
June 14, 2005 6:55:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

<michaeljc70@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1118712594.101857.72280@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I have a 140 (160GB) Directv Tivo. I have about 50 hours of programs on
> there (all keep until space needed) and, on average, my To Do list
> shows it will record about 13 hours a day. Why area shows showing as
> may be deleted to make room for new programs when I have at least 7
> days before that would happen?????
>
> It seems to me this is way off and it would have been much better to
> tell you how many hours your have left rather than having arcane
> icons/msgs that don't give you accurate info. My ReplayTV tells you
> what time you have left and you can adjust accordingly. I guess Tivo is
> made for the masses (aka dumb people) and they thought it would confuse
> people.
>

Recordings eligible for deletion to make space available for new programs
automatically become eligible after two days.

The DirecTV DVR cannot predict how many recording hours are unused
or available for new recordings. The amount of space used/hour
varies among the saved programs. Every hour of recording won't necessarily
use the same number of bytes of recording space. A 3 hour letter boxed
movie with black areas at top and bottom of the screen will occupy less space
than a 3 hour non-letter boxed movie.

The amount of *available space* includes space used by programs eligible
for deletion plus the amount of unused space. The "accurate info" you desire
isn't available and there is nothing to "adjust" if that information were available.

I use 2 "up to 35 hours" DirecTV DVRs and don't care how much space is used
or available. With 140 GB available you shouldn't care about used space either.
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 5:00:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

If they can predict enough to advertise that the DVR holds 70 hours,
they can predict enough to give the user an estimate. They could also
just give a % free of the total hard disk space. Having to go through
and add up how much I have used or prematurely delete things is silly
with today's technology. A simple indicator (icon next to now playing
or something) that indicates when the drive is 90% full would even
suffice.
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 12:21:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

>If they can predict enough to advertise that the DVR holds 70 hours,
>they can predict enough to give the user an estimate. They could also

They can't predict the actions of the user. It is likely, for
example, that the earliest show marked with a yellow exclamation
point on my TiVo will be deleted the next time I leave for 3 days
(and therefore don't watch and delete any shows). However, it's
been around for 4 months, and it will likely stay around a few more.

>just give a % free of the total hard disk space. Having to go through
>and add up how much I have used or prematurely delete things is silly
>with today's technology. A simple indicator (icon next to now playing
>or something) that indicates when the drive is 90% full would even
>suffice.

I'd like to see several indicators:

1. The percentage of disk space occupied by KEEP UNTIL I DELETE shows.
2. The percentage of disk space occupied by KEEP UNTIL I DELETE
and recent recordings (excludes yellow exclamation points and suggestions
unless they are marked KUID)
3. The percentage of disk space occupied by non-suggestion recordings
(unless they are marked KUID).
4. The percentage of disk space occupied.

Of these, #3 is probably the most useful if I can have only one of
them. #4 is probably pretty useless (unless you turn suggestions
off, in which case it becomes #3), as TiVo will do its best to keep
it at or near 100%. #2 is my choice for the second indicator if
I can have one.

Gordon L. Burditt
June 21, 2005 12:21:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:21:37 -0000, Gordon Burditt wrote:

>>If they can predict enough to advertise that the DVR holds 70 hours,
>>they can predict enough to give the user an estimate. They could also
>
>They can't predict the actions of the user. It is likely, for
>example, that the earliest show marked with a yellow exclamation
>point on my TiVo will be deleted the next time I leave for 3 days
>(and therefore don't watch and delete any shows). However, it's
>been around for 4 months, and it will likely stay around a few more.
>
>>just give a % free of the total hard disk space. Having to go through
>>and add up how much I have used or prematurely delete things is silly
>>with today's technology. A simple indicator (icon next to now playing
>>or something) that indicates when the drive is 90% full would even
>>suffice.
>
>I'd like to see several indicators:
>
>1. The percentage of disk space occupied by KEEP UNTIL I DELETE shows.
>2. The percentage of disk space occupied by KEEP UNTIL I DELETE
> and recent recordings (excludes yellow exclamation points and suggestions
> unless they are marked KUID)
>3. The percentage of disk space occupied by non-suggestion recordings
> (unless they are marked KUID).
>4. The percentage of disk space occupied.
>
>Of these, #3 is probably the most useful if I can have only one of
>them. #4 is probably pretty useless (unless you turn suggestions
>off, in which case it becomes #3), as TiVo will do its best to keep
>it at or near 100%. #2 is my choice for the second indicator if
>I can have one.
>
> Gordon L. Burditt


Why not a simple bar graph, in the form of a standard software
progress bar, based on actual space used.

KKKKKKKKKKYYYYYYYYYYBBBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWW
K = Keep until I delete, in green
Y = All the yellow icons, in yellow
B = Tivo suggestions, in black
W = Empty space, in white

with the measurement of empty space shown, with the standard "up
to X hours" conversion that's show in the system details

Based on space used, because as someone else pointed out
somewhere, everything else being equal, a movie recorded with
letterboxing (the black bars) will take up less space than the
same movie without letterboxing.

If someone is leaving for the weekend, then they check their
white space and maybe get rid of suggestions, or turn suggestions
off for the weekend, and not worry about losing something in the
yellow danger area.
June 21, 2005 12:25:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

* Wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

> If they can predict enough to advertise that the DVR holds 70
> hours, they can predict enough to give the user an estimate. They
> could also just give a % free of the total hard disk space.

Which does what for you?

Lets say it tells you that you have 10% free, what useful information
is obtained from that reference?

> Having to go through and add up how much I have used or
> prematurely delete things is silly with today's technology.

Even doing that, what does it buy you? Lets say it tells you, that by
your calculations that you have 3 hours left and you attempt to
record a football game that goes only 2 hours and 45 minuts BUT it
caused one of your yellow ! to get deleted, is that OK? Same result
even IF you had an automated counter telling what percent of space is
available.

> A
> simple indicator (icon next to now playing or something) that
> indicates when the drive is 90% full would even suffice.

Yeah, it would suffice in adding to the number of pissed off
customers that call support when it turned out that because of the
compression of a show you recorded, another show was deleted but they
thought based on that estimate it should have fit no problem, BUT the
compression caused estimate provided to be inaccurate and caused a
'really important' show to be deleted.


--
David
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 12:43:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> If someone is leaving for the weekend, then they check their
> white space and maybe get rid of suggestions, or turn suggestions
> off for the weekend, and not worry about losing something in the
> yellow danger area.

Well, I'd say that's unnecessary, Suggestions will never prevent
anything from being recorded or cause anything to be deleted, except for
other suggestions maybe.

Randy S.
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 4:45:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

>>They can't predict the actions of the user. It is likely, for
>>example, that the earliest show marked with a yellow exclamation
>>point on my TiVo will be deleted the next time I leave for 3 days
>>(and therefore don't watch and delete any shows). However, it's
>>been around for 4 months, and it will likely stay around a few more.
>>
>>>just give a % free of the total hard disk space. Having to go through
>>>and add up how much I have used or prematurely delete things is silly
>>>with today's technology. A simple indicator (icon next to now playing
>>>or something) that indicates when the drive is 90% full would even
>>>suffice.
>>
>>I'd like to see several indicators:
>>
>>1. The percentage of disk space occupied by KEEP UNTIL I DELETE shows.
>>2. The percentage of disk space occupied by KEEP UNTIL I DELETE
>> and recent recordings (excludes yellow exclamation points and suggestions
>> unless they are marked KUID)
>>3. The percentage of disk space occupied by non-suggestion recordings
>> (unless they are marked KUID).
>>4. The percentage of disk space occupied.
>>
>>Of these, #3 is probably the most useful if I can have only one of
>>them. #4 is probably pretty useless (unless you turn suggestions
>>off, in which case it becomes #3), as TiVo will do its best to keep
>>it at or near 100%. #2 is my choice for the second indicator if
>>I can have one.
>>
>> Gordon L. Burditt
>
>
>Why not a simple bar graph, in the form of a standard software
>progress bar, based on actual space used.
>
>KKKKKKKKKKYYYYYYYYYYBBBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWW
>K = Keep until I delete, in green
Um, in here you have the recently recorded stuff, not old enough to
get a yellow ball yet, and not marked KUID.
>Y = All the yellow icons, in yellow
>B = Tivo suggestions, in black
>W = Empty space, in white

Not a bad idea.

>with the measurement of empty space shown, with the standard "up
>to X hours" conversion that's show in the system details

On a standalone TiVo, there's the different quality levels to worry
about (and Basic probably isn't your default.) Each season pass
can have its own quality level. Perhaps it should use the current
overall default quality setting for the bar graph.

>Based on space used, because as someone else pointed out
>somewhere, everything else being equal, a movie recorded with
>letterboxing (the black bars) will take up less space than the
>same movie without letterboxing.
>
>If someone is leaving for the weekend, then they check their
>white space and maybe get rid of suggestions, or turn suggestions
>off for the weekend, and not worry about losing something in the
>yellow danger area.

Getting rid of suggestions, or turning off suggestions for the
weekend will do *NOTHING* to prevent losing the yellow stuff. The
suggestions will all be deleted before that happens anyway. If you
want to save something you're in danger of losing, you need to
delete or reclassify something in the K, blank, or Y groups, or do
something about reducing future non-suggestion recordings.

Gordon L. Burditt
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 4:45:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Gordon Burditt (gordonb.vx9tu@burditt.org) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
> >Why not a simple bar graph, in the form of a standard software
> >progress bar, based on actual space used.
> >
> >KKKKKKKKKKYYYYYYYYYYBBBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWW
> >K = Keep until I delete, in green
>
> Um, in here you have the recently recorded stuff, not old enough to
> get a yellow ball yet, and not marked KUID.
>
> >Y = All the yellow icons, in yellow
> >B = Tivo suggestions, in black
> >W = Empty space, in white
>
> Not a bad idea.

With one modification...remember that until a recording has a yellow
exclamation point, it's not available for auto delete. So, "no icon"
and "yellow ball" recordings are identical as far as TiVo is concerned,
and they should be displayed as such, so something like this would do:

| |
KKKKKKKKKKNNNNNNNNN|YYYYYYYYYY|BBBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWW
| |

K = Keep until I delete, in green
N = "no icon" and "yellow ball" recordings...maybe a lighter green?
Y = "yellow exclamation point" recordings, in yellow
B = Tivo suggestions, in black
W = Empty space, in white

The first bar is the marker for true "used space", since anything to the
left cannot be deleted automatically, and anything to the right can.
The second bar is the marker for true "free space". If the amount to
the right of it is enough for future recordings, then no user-requested
recording will be deleted.

Of course, this is only an instantaneous status...a "yellow ball" can
turn into a "yellow exclamation point" tomorrow and then be deleted.

--
Jeff Rife | "Hey, Brain, what do you wanna do tonight?"
|
| "The same thing we do every night, Pinky...
| try to take over the world."
June 21, 2005 2:54:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:43:37 -0400, Jeff Rife wrote:
>
>With one modification...remember that until a recording has a yellow
>exclamation point, it's not available for auto delete. So, "no icon"
>and "yellow ball" recordings are identical as far as TiVo is concerned,
>and they should be displayed as such, so something like this would do:
>
> | |
>KKKKKKKKKKNNNNNNNNN|YYYYYYYYYY|BBBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWW
> | |
>
>K = Keep until I delete, in green
>N = "no icon" and "yellow ball" recordings...maybe a lighter green?
>Y = "yellow exclamation point" recordings, in yellow
>B = Tivo suggestions, in black
>W = Empty space, in white
>
>The first bar is the marker for true "used space", since anything to the
>left cannot be deleted automatically, and anything to the right can.
>The second bar is the marker for true "free space". If the amount to
>the right of it is enough for future recordings, then no user-requested
>recording will be deleted.
>
>Of course, this is only an instantaneous status...a "yellow ball" can
>turn into a "yellow exclamation point" tomorrow and then be deleted.

Don't know what exactly I was thinking with the 'turn suggestions
off' thing...

But the 'no icon' should be in with the yellows, because it can
turn into a yellow ball tomorrow, and perhaps tomorrow is day 1
of a 4 day holiday weekend. The 4th of july is a monday this
year, and less than 2 weeks away...

Gordon said:
>On a standalone TiVo, there's the different quality levels to worry
>about (and Basic probably isn't your default.) Each season pass
>can have its own quality level. Perhaps it should use the current
>overall default quality setting for the bar graph.

Good point. white space measurement is listed in gigs directly
under the bar, lower on the screen can be a translation of 'up to
x hours' at the various qualities. If it's not enough, delete
some suggs yourself until you get the number you're happy with.
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 4:02:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

In general, I think you are over-emphasing the compression ratio. Yes,
it maybe it varies, but most shows are going to have a very similar
ratio. It is extremely unlikely for one show to be compressed at say
22% and another is be 75%.

I think a yellow exclamation point is more confusing when your programs
may never be deleted or are weeks away from being deleted. Lets face
it- anything not marked KUID CAN be deleted. This exclamation thing is
useless as far as I am concerned.
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 5:26:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

(Jason) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
> But the 'no icon' should be in with the yellows, because it can
> turn into a yellow ball tomorrow,

Yes, it could, but TiVo still can't delete it.

> and perhaps tomorrow is day 1
> of a 4 day holiday weekend. The 4th of july is a monday this
> year, and less than 2 weeks away...

On the other hand, if you have extended the expiration date, it *won't*
be available for delete during those 4 days. Other than the detailed info
screen, there is no way to tell when a "no icon" recording will turn into
a "yellow ball". A "yellow ball" means one more day and the recording will
be available for deletion.

So, grouping all "no icons" with "yellow balls" makes sense, because both
are not available for deletion, even though some can be very far away from
possible deletion.

--
Jeff Rife | "What are you looking at? You're laborers; you
| should be laboring. That's what you get for
| not having an education."
| -- Professor Hathaway, "Real Genius"
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 6:28:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Jeff Rife wrote:
> (Jason) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
>
>>But the 'no icon' should be in with the yellows, because it can
>>turn into a yellow ball tomorrow,

> So, grouping all "no icons" with "yellow balls" makes sense, because both
> are not available for deletion, even though some can be very far away from
> possible deletion.
>

I think that's what Jason was saying, though his because was misleading.

You ever wonder whether anyone from Tivo watches this group for ideas?
Some of them often seem sensible ;-). I get the feeling it would be
more likely they'd watch tivocommunity.com though.

Randy S.
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 10:49:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

I think that a % indicator would work. Everyone has a fuel gauge
indicator on their car. It doesn't tell you you can go exactly 32.5
miles, but it is still useful. Your argument is that your mileage will
vary whether you are on the highway or local so let's just rip out the
fuel gauge altogether. All I really am interested in is a ballpark
that tells me I am running low on space and stuff will be deleted.
Just liek I don't care if my car has a full, 3/4 or 1/2 tank of gas. I
am concerned when I have less than 1/4. I don't need to know that I
can fit 178 minutes of recording if it is at X and X compression.



SINNER wrote:
> * Wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
>
> > In general, I think you are over-emphasing the compression ratio.
> > Yes, it maybe it varies, but most shows are going to have a very
> > similar ratio. It is extremely unlikely for one show to be
> > compressed at say 22% and another is be 75%.
> >
> > I think a yellow exclamation point is more confusing when your
> > programs may never be deleted or are weeks away from being
> > deleted. Lets face it- anything not marked KUID CAN be deleted.
> > This exclamation thing is useless as far as I am concerned.
> >
>
> Even a 5% difference is enough to cause a problem. If you are
> downloading a file to your PC and you have 100 megs left and the file
> is 99 megs, you know it will fit. Not so in the Tivo world so
> regardless of how wide the difference is, it is variable enough so
> that if you depend on it, which the consumer will inevitably do, they
> will be invariably disappointed and unjustly blame Tivo. IMNSHO, it
> is better to do with out especially from the POV of Tivo Customer
> Service as the feature would likely piss off more people than it
> would help.
>
> --
> David
June 22, 2005 12:16:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

* Wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

> In general, I think you are over-emphasing the compression ratio.
> Yes, it maybe it varies, but most shows are going to have a very
> similar ratio. It is extremely unlikely for one show to be
> compressed at say 22% and another is be 75%.
>
> I think a yellow exclamation point is more confusing when your
> programs may never be deleted or are weeks away from being
> deleted. Lets face it- anything not marked KUID CAN be deleted.
> This exclamation thing is useless as far as I am concerned.
>

Even a 5% difference is enough to cause a problem. If you are
downloading a file to your PC and you have 100 megs left and the file
is 99 megs, you know it will fit. Not so in the Tivo world so
regardless of how wide the difference is, it is variable enough so
that if you depend on it, which the consumer will inevitably do, they
will be invariably disappointed and unjustly blame Tivo. IMNSHO, it
is better to do with out especially from the POV of Tivo Customer
Service as the feature would likely piss off more people than it
would help.

--
David
Anonymous
June 22, 2005 2:55:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Jeff Rife" <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote in message news:MPG.1d2217eae3c4a1e6989df4@news.nabs.net...
> (Jason) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
> > But the 'no icon' should be in with the yellows, because it can
> > turn into a yellow ball tomorrow,
>
> Yes, it could, but TiVo still can't delete it.
>
....

Doesn't Keep at Most 1 episode SP for daily recordings cause a program
to immediately have a Yellow icon for the daily recording?

My Keep at Most 1 episode recordings disappear when the next recording
under that SP starts. Those daily recordings seldom if ever have an exclamation
point icon in Now Playing.

I doubt there will ever be available space v. used space information added
because there is great misunderstanding now about retention criteria.

Creating a half dozen categories of usage retention will add confusion for most users.
Few people understand the consequence of changing the Keep until Date on a program
recorded under a Season Pass with respect to the Keep at Most setting.
Anonymous
June 22, 2005 6:10:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

In article <1119404941.075825.284540@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
michaeljc70@hotmail.com wrote:

> I think that a % indicator would work. Everyone has a fuel gauge
> indicator on their car. It doesn't tell you you can go exactly 32.5
> miles, but it is still useful. Your argument is that your mileage will
> vary whether you are on the highway or local so let's just rip out the
> fuel gauge altogether. All I really am interested in is a ballpark
> that tells me I am running low on space and stuff will be deleted.
> Just liek I don't care if my car has a full, 3/4 or 1/2 tank of gas. I
> am concerned when I have less than 1/4. I don't need to know that I
> can fit 178 minutes of recording if it is at X and X compression.

jeez, you go to now playing, and spend 30 seconds adding it up.
Anonymous
June 22, 2005 10:17:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Gordon Burditt wrote:

> They can't predict the actions of the user. It is likely, for
> example, that the earliest show marked with a yellow exclamation
> point on my TiVo will be deleted the next time I leave for 3 days
> (and therefore don't watch and delete any shows). However, it's
> been around for 4 months, and it will likely stay around a few more.
>
> I'd like to see several indicators:

Instead of a single number of bar graph, I'd rather have the Now
Playing list give informative indications as to which recordings
are at risk.

Taking into account what is in the To Do list, and assuming that
nothing is manually deleted, calculate how many days each recording
will remain before being deleted to free up disk space.

I would rather have a number (from 0 to 9) instead of an exclamation
point for shows marked with a yellow circle.

(0) = show has less than 24 hours to live
(1) = show is safe for 1 day (24 to 47.9 hours to live)
(2) through (9) = similar
no mark = 10 or more days at current rate of consumption.

Then I could look at the Now Showing list and say, "If I don't free
up any space, then that show right there will be gone the day after
tomorrow."

-Joe
Anonymous
June 22, 2005 6:22:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

In article <06CdndDQxqRC-STfRVn-qw@comcast.com>, Joe Smith wrote:
> Gordon Burditt wrote:
>
>> They can't predict the actions of the user. It is likely, for
>> example, that the earliest show marked with a yellow exclamation
>> point on my TiVo will be deleted the next time I leave for 3 days
>> (and therefore don't watch and delete any shows). However, it's
>> been around for 4 months, and it will likely stay around a few more.
>>
>> I'd like to see several indicators:
>
> Instead of a single number of bar graph, I'd rather have the Now
> Playing list give informative indications as to which recordings
> are at risk.
>
> Taking into account what is in the To Do list, and assuming that
> nothing is manually deleted, calculate how many days each recording
> will remain before being deleted to free up disk space.

You also have to worry about nothing being manually added, in
particular MRV from another TiVo for which it may not sink in
to a user that the show is copied and not streamed.

You also have to worry about scheduled, but unrecorded, KUID
shows. Nobody has mentioned those, but TiVo reserves space for
them as soon as it finds out about them. So that's another
category altogether that needs to be included for any of these
approaches.

You also have to worry about new KUID shows entering the database
due to a phone call (ie, 12 days out). Despite you not doing
anything, you may suddenly lose a few hours of available space,
and therefore a few shows! Very unhappy user.

You also have to worry about what's going to happen once
cooperative scheduling actually gets implemented (fingers
crossed!). You may not know what is going to get recorded on
this TiVo.

All of these worries are going to cause increased support calls
to TiVo, and some of them will be with very irate customers!
Doesn't seem worth it to me. (A simple percentage of disk
currently allocated to shows use would be much more reasonable.)

Chris
Anonymous
June 22, 2005 6:22:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Chris Buckley (chrisb@sabir.com) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
> You also have to worry about what's going to happen once
> cooperative scheduling actually gets implemented (fingers
> crossed!). You may not know what is going to get recorded on
> this TiVo.

Cooperative scheduling without cooperative disk space management would be
pretty useless.

Consider what would happen if you had two TiVos, and one had a lot of lower
priority ARWLs that hit for movies, but tended not to be recorded because
high-priority sitcoms use up the tuner. All those movies would go to
the "other" TiVo. Since cooperative scheduling would have the SP Manager list
only in one place (otherwise, how do you set priority between two conflicting
shows in different lists?), you would now be funneling all these 2-hour
movies to the "slave" TiVo while the "master" records nothing but sitcoms.

If the "master" is a 120-hour unit while the "slave" is a 40-hour unit, you'd
use the space very badly, and would also have shows deleted that you wouldn't
have to.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/99/Apr/columbine.html
June 22, 2005 7:17:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

* Wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

> I think that a % indicator would work.

It wont work because people will depend on it to protect a recording
that is NOT marked KUID and when that dosent work they will blame the
Tivo not their own stupidity.

> Everyone has a fuel gauge
> indicator on their car.

And yet every day people run out of gas on the highway.

> It doesn't tell you you can go exactly
> 32.5 miles, but it is still useful.

But not really useful enough as you can see above.

> Your argument is that your
> mileage will vary whether you are on the highway or local so let's
> just rip out the fuel gauge altogether.

No, my argument is that if you cant provide accurate information you
are treading on dangerous ground.

Funny that you should mention the gas gauge as it is a particular pet
peeve of mine. It would be trivial to measure the gas as it goes in
to the tank and as it gets pumped into the engine therfore Gas gauges
should be much more accurate, the fact that they arent is the reason
people still run out of gas. The funny thing is, they dont blame
Dodge, but you can bet that when little Jimmy's birthday announcement
on the morning news gets dumped because they thought theyd have
enough space to record Regis and Kelly they will be blaming Tivo.

> All I really am
> interested in is a ballpark that tells me I am running low on
> space and stuff will be deleted.

And ALl Tivo is interested in is a happy customer and while the gauge
would be a nice to have, it buys more trouble than its worth.

> Just liek I don't care if my car
> has a full, 3/4 or 1/2 tank of gas.

You dont? Thats pretty silly. I check my gas gauge everytime I get in
my car.

> I am concerned when I have
> less than 1/4.

What if your taking a long road trip to somplace youve never been and
dont know when the next gas station will be around?

> I don't need to know that I can fit 178 minutes of
> recording if it is at X and X compression.

No but it would sure matter if 178 minutes WOULD fit at X compression
but 180 at Y compression would not and since youve no idea what the
compression is how do you decide?

--
David
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 12:01:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Well, all arguments aside, I think my origianl premise is correct: the
yellow exclmation provides little value. You contend adding a %
indicator would complicate the interface. I think the yellow
exclamation does. Telling you something "may" be deleted is silly
since anything not marked KUID "may" be deleted if you record enough
shows. If anything, I think that it should sum up everything in your
to-do list and if based on that, something will be deleted within say 3
days, put the exlamation point. Your whole argument of confusing
people is silly because I think the exclamation point is more confusing
making people think stuff will be deleted when it wont.
June 24, 2005 7:40:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

* Wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

> Well, all arguments aside, I think my origianl premise is correct:
> the yellow exclmation provides little value. You contend adding a
> % indicator would complicate the interface. I think the yellow
> exclamation does. Telling you something "may" be deleted is silly
> since anything not marked KUID "may" be deleted if you record
> enough shows. If anything, I think that it should sum up
> everything in your to-do list and if based on that, something will
> be deleted within say 3 days, put the exlamation point. Your
> whole argument of confusing people is silly because I think the
> exclamation point is more confusing making people think stuff
> will be deleted when it wont.
>
>

Better that than the alternative which is deleteing something that I
*thought* I had enough room for.

--
David
Anonymous
June 25, 2005 11:35:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Back to the car analogy: I think if for years you filled up your car
because an indicator told you it "might need gas" only to find out that
most of the time your tank was more than half full you would be
irritated.
Anonymous
June 26, 2005 12:09:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

michaeljc70@hotmail.com wrote:
> Back to the car analogy: I think if for years you filled up your car
> because an indicator told you it "might need gas" only to find out that
> most of the time your tank was more than half full you would be
> irritated.
>

Ahh, but you'd be a *lot* less irritated than if you ran out of gas!
Better safe than sorry.

Randy S.
June 26, 2005 4:53:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Randy S." <Randy@nospam.com> wrote in news:D 9krna$1cdi$1
@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu:

> michaeljc70@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Back to the car analogy: I think if for years you filled up your car
>> because an indicator told you it "might need gas" only to find out that
>> most of the time your tank was more than half full you would be
>> irritated.
>>
>
> Ahh, but you'd be a *lot* less irritated than if you ran out of gas!
> Better safe than sorry.

And of course, the 'logic' behind this thread is exactly the way fuel
gauges work now anyway. When it says that I have a half tank, it has
absolutely NO idea if this is going to last me another hour, another day,
another week, or another month. You are required to use your intelligence,
factoring in such things as how much you will be using the car in the near
future, to figure out when you need to refuel.

This is ALL people have been asking for, but people keep trying to muddy
the waters. Despite attempts to paint it otherwise, people are not asking
for a feature where the TiVo will tell them "assuming you do this, and
don't do this, you will run out of space at this time on this date...unless
of course you don't do this, and do this instead, in which case you will
run out of space at THIS time on THIS date, and that's assuming you don't
do this or this in the meantime".

But then again, this is a thread started by someone who thinks 'can be
deleted at any time' means/should mean 'going to be deleted soon', and
nobody has ever said THAT, either.

--
Minister of All Things Digital & Electronic, and Holder of Past Knowledge
stile99@email.com. Cabal# 24601-fnord | Sleep is irrelevant.
I speak for no one but myself, and |Caffeine will be assimilated.
no one else speaks for me. O- | Decaf is futile.
June 26, 2005 7:23:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On 26 Jun 2005 00:53:45 GMT, Howard wrote:

>"Randy S." <Randy@nospam.com> wrote in news:D 9krna$1cdi$1
>@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu:
>
>> michaeljc70 @ hotmail.com wrote:
>>> Back to the car analogy: I think if for years you filled up your car
>>> because an indicator told you it "might need gas" only to find out that
>>> most of the time your tank was more than half full you would be
>>> irritated.
>>>
>>
>> Ahh, but you'd be a *lot* less irritated than if you ran out of gas!
>> Better safe than sorry.

Ounce of prevention, and all that, until your gas gauge always
says empty, and you stop bothering to look at it, and start
guessing how full the tank is by miles traveled. I've had to do
that, on a long trip, and it wasn't my car, so I had no idea how
often I had to stop.

A gauge that doesn't provide clear and consistently useful
information is not worth the space it uses. A feature like that
exclamation point that has a very small area of relevance is not
worth the effort to keep track of it.

>And of course, the 'logic' behind this thread is exactly the way fuel
>gauges work now anyway. When it says that I have a half tank, it has
>absolutely NO idea if this is going to last me another hour, another day,
>another week, or another month. You are required to use your intelligence,
>factoring in such things as how much you will be using the car in the near
>future, to figure out when you need to refuel.
>
>This is ALL people have been asking for, but people keep trying to muddy
>the waters. Despite attempts to paint it otherwise, people are not asking
>for a feature where the TiVo will tell them "assuming you do this, and
>don't do this, you will run out of space at this time on this date...unless
>of course you don't do this, and do this instead, in which case you will
>run out of space at THIS time on THIS date, and that's assuming you don't
>do this or this in the meantime".

Yeah, the OP said in a reply that a little % gauge next to "Now
Playing" would be the minimum required. As far as muddying the
waters... Well, the software is going to the trouble of figuring
out the %full, so why not take the info it's adding up and just
place it as a separate menu item. And as long as it's doing the
math, give us the results in color coded form...17% KUID, 28%
recent (no ball), 25%yellow(ball and exclamation point), 10%
black(suggestions), and the rest (20%) white unused. I don't feel
that asking for a breakdown of the space used as muddying the
waters, I'm still asking for a percentage used graph.

>But then again, this is a thread started by someone who thinks 'can be
>deleted at any time' means/should mean 'going to be deleted soon', and
>nobody has ever said THAT, either.

The OP said that. Remove the word 'means', and you have
essentially distilled his complaint into a single sentence:

On 13 Jun 2005 18:29:54 -0700, michaeljc70 @ hotmail wrote:
>I have a 140 (160GB) Directv Tivo. I have about 50 hours of programs on
>there (all keep until space needed) and, on average, my To Do list
>shows it will record about 13 hours a day. Why area shows showing as
>may be deleted to make room for new programs when I have at least 7
>days before that would happen?????
>
>It seems to me this is way off and it would have been much better to
>tell you how many hours your have left rather than having arcane
>icons/msgs that don't give you accurate info. My ReplayTV tells you
>what time you have left and you can adjust accordingly. I guess Tivo is
>made for the masses (aka dumb people) and they thought it would confuse
>people.
June 27, 2005 1:02:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Jason wrote in news:c4vtb1tah40bid5c1o0ntca7hpal7haq7q@4ax.com:

> Yeah, the OP said in a reply that a little % gauge next to "Now
> Playing" would be the minimum required. As far as muddying the
> waters... Well, the software is going to the trouble of figuring
> out the %full, so why not take the info it's adding up and just
> place it as a separate menu item. And as long as it's doing the
> math, give us the results in color coded form...17% KUID, 28%
> recent (no ball), 25%yellow(ball and exclamation point), 10%
> black(suggestions), and the rest (20%) white unused. I don't feel
> that asking for a breakdown of the space used as muddying the
> waters, I'm still asking for a percentage used graph.

I'm not certain how 'what will happen on a future date' (which is what the
muddy water people keep trying to use) became 'current use'...but I'll pick
up the ball and run with it.

Actually, no I won't. Sorry. The ball is so out of play, I can't even
find the damned thing. Perhaps you are new to the issue, so I'll explain
again.

The request for a 'disk used/available' indicator has been pretty much the
top request since the first TiVo came out. There are those who would find
this useful, and those who would not. Those who would not somehow think
others should not have it, merely because they themselves would not use
it/do not understand it. So they point out how 'useless' a gauge would be,
because while you may have 20 gig free 'now', you won't tomorrow, or three
days from now, or a week from now. This is like saying a fuel gauge is
useless because perhaps you have half a tank 'now', but who knows about
tomorrow, three days from now, a week from now? This is completely stupid,
and so far, the best FUD that crowd can com up with.

I said, and continue to maintain, that that crowd is the only one who has
ever asked for anything involving future dates. Every single person I have
ever seen ask for the space indicator wants it to display what is
used/available NOW. Not yesterday, not tomorrow...now. What you may or
may not record or delete in the next (insert time interval) has
nothing...NOTHING to do with the question 'how much space do I have now?'.

>>But then again, this is a thread started by someone who thinks 'can be
>>deleted at any time' means/should mean 'going to be deleted soon', and
>>nobody has ever said THAT, either.
>
> The OP said that.

Well...yes. That would kind of be why I said the thread was started by
someone who thinks that. How was THAT unclear?

> Remove the word 'means', and you have essentially distilled his complaint
into a single sentence:

Ok, grant me a correction then. Correction: nobody who understands/has
read the manual has ever said that.

Nor, for that matter, will the icon ever change to mean that. What the
icons mean are definite, absolute, and pretty damned difficult to
misunderstand unless you try really really hard. There's less than a zero
chance TiVo is going to change them to mean "This will be deleted in 24
hours, unless of course you delete some other things to free up space, or
suddenly schedule a whole bunch of recordings in the next 12 hours, which
will shorten the 24 hour lifespan of this icon".

--
Minister of All Things Digital & Electronic, and Holder of Past Knowledge
stile99@email.com. Cabal# 24601-fnord | Sleep is irrelevant.
I speak for no one but myself, and |Caffeine will be assimilated.
no one else speaks for me. O- | Decaf is futile.
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 4:08:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Howard wrote:
> So they point out how 'useless' a gauge would be,
> because while you may have 20 gig free 'now', you won't tomorrow, or three
> days from now, or a week from now. This is like saying a fuel gauge is
> useless because perhaps you have half a tank 'now', but who knows about
> tomorrow, three days from now, a week from now?

Bad analogy. Tanks don't have fuel added without intervention.
In an automobile with the amount remaining is steadily decreasing,
a bunch of fuel will not magically appear. But TiVo can make free
space appear by deleting something.

> nothing...NOTHING to do with the question 'how much space do I have now?'.

But what good is an indication of the disk space now?
1) Warm fuzzies having that bit of info
2) Bragging rights
3) Crucial if you have to manually delete to make room for more shows.

A percent-remaining gauge is for necessary for people who micro-manage
their disk space. The kind that use KUID and SUID for everything.

-Joe
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 9:13:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Joe Smith seemed to utter in news:Z-mdnRalN5_zal3fRVn-pA@comcast.com:

> But what good is an indication of the disk space now?
> 1) Warm fuzzies having that bit of info
> 2) Bragging rights
> 3) Crucial if you have to manually delete to make room for more
> shows.
>
> A percent-remaining gauge is for necessary for people who micro-manage
> their disk space. The kind that use KUID and SUID for everything.

I was just asking myself this same question... why would you need
to know the current disk utilization? The only reasonable reason
seems to be your #3 above for people manually managing the space.

I'm sure some would say, "Because I want to know." Perhaps that would
fall into the #1 or #2 reason above.

I'd really like to know, though. From people who really want this
feature - what would you use this feature for if you had it. Perhaps
I am just unaware of how much better I could "use" my TiVo if I
had this gauge.

-- TRW
_______________________________________
t r w 7
at
i x dot n e t c o m dot c o m
_______________________________________
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 10:55:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Tim Witort" <trw7at@ixdot.netcomdotcom> wrote in message news:Xns96846880036A5timwitortwrotethis@207.217.125.201...
> Joe Smith seemed to utter in news:Z-mdnRalN5_zal3fRVn-pA@comcast.com:
>
> > But what good is an indication of the disk space now?
> > 1) Warm fuzzies having that bit of info
> > 2) Bragging rights
> > 3) Crucial if you have to manually delete to make room for more
> > shows.
> >
> > A percent-remaining gauge is for necessary for people who micro-manage
> > their disk space. The kind that use KUID and SUID for everything.
>
> I was just asking myself this same question... why would you need
> to know the current disk utilization? The only reasonable reason
> seems to be your #3 above for people manually managing the space.
>
> I'm sure some would say, "Because I want to know." Perhaps that would
> fall into the #1 or #2 reason above.
>
> I'd really like to know, though. From people who really want this
> feature - what would you use this feature for if you had it. Perhaps
> I am just unaware of how much better I could "use" my TiVo if I
> had this gauge.
....

When my DirecTV DVR was new I wanted to know how much the DVR could store.

I created an Excel spreadsheet to total the running time of programs
on the DVR. This spreadsheet has confirmed the current capacity of the
DirecTV DVR at about 34 hours. The cell data is time in hours:mins format
stored on lines identified by date. I update the Excel data every week or two.
Now that I know how much the DVR can store I let suggestions deletions
remind me the DVR is near capacity with recordings. I have a 3 hour
"The Office" BBCA special from last October with the Yellow Exclamation icon.

A percentage remaining space value might be interesting but less than useful.
On the spreadsheet, I've never bothered to calculate percentage used,
percent free or otherwise. I have a cell where the historical max. hours:mins
value is kept.

I manually delete most programs recorded with other than a Season Pass.
Season Pass options are set to keep 2 or 3 episodes. A "keep 1" setting
is bad if your electrical service is unreliable and you don't have a UPS.

BTW, the original maximum capacity of the DVR totaled less than 28 hours.
About the time the spot beam satellite was put in service and new local markets
were added to the national beam, the maximum DVR recording time increased
to the 35 hour number.
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 12:59:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> A percent-remaining gauge is for necessary for people who micro-manage
> their disk space. The kind that use KUID and SUID for everything.

Or perhaps it's a matter of a Tivo not being the right sort of device for
these folks.
!