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New (long-term) i7 Gaming Build

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September 30, 2009 6:30:59 PM

APPROXIMATE PURCHASE DATE: Less than 7 days.

BUDGET RANGE: Flexible. ~$2000 US

SYSTEM USAGE FROM MOST TO LEAST IMPORTANT: Gaming, HTPC, A/V Encoding, Interwebs, etc.

PARTS NOT REQUIRED: keyboard, mouse, monitor, speakers (2.1), OS (Win7 RC), thermal paste (Arctic Silver 5)

PREFERRED WEBSITE(S) FOR PARTS: Best deal > specific e-tailer. Have used Newegg in the past, no problems.

COUNTRY OF ORIGIN: US

PARTS PREFERENCES: LGA 1366. Quality parts > lowest price.

OVERCLOCKING: Yes -> 3.6 - 4.0gz, air-cooled.

SLI OR CROSSFIRE: Yes (but not immediately).

MONITOR RESOLUTION(S): 1680x1050 & 1280x1024 - may also connect to 58" 1080p plasma tv.

ADDITIONAL COMMENTS: Looking to build a "future-proof" foundation now, and planning to purchase/upgrade some parts in the future (holiday '09 or thereafter).

Future upgrades may include additional RAM, 3x 1920x1200 monitors, SSD boot drive, second (third and fourth?) video cards in SLI or X-Fire, 5.1 or 7.1 speaker system, Gulftown hexcore, additional HDs for storage, Blu-Ray burner, artificial intelligence, etc.

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CPU: Intel Core i7 920 Nehalem 2.66GHz LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core Processor - $280
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115202

I would obviously prefer D0 stepping, but it does not appear that Newegg guarantees such an offering. I hope to OC to the 3.6-4.0gz range with an after-market air cooler and a case with excellent air flow. Hence, the reduced voltage/heat from the D0 would be advantageous.

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CASE:
ANTEC Twelve Hundred Black Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case - $160
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129043

-OR-

COOLER MASTER HAF 932 RC-932-KKN1-GP Black Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case - $140
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119160

Both cases provide excellent air-flow and are rather noisy. I prefer the look of the 1200 over the 932, and am willing to part with an extra $20 for that preference. However, I have seen the 932 repeatedly recommended in these forums and am curious as to whether there is a specific reason beyond price difference and marginally better air-flow. Both appear to have similar dimensions and specs. Also, the 1200 has air filters which is nice since I'm a smoker.

Edit: Ordered the 1200 from newegg for $160, free shipping.

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MOTHERBOARD: Undecided.

This is always my most most difficult decision for a build. I've chosen LGA 1366 for "future-proof" considerations, and would like a motherboard to be somewhat flexible for adjusting to future needs. 3 PCIe slots is a minimum, 4 would be better - even though I'm only planning to start with a single video card. Support for SLI & Crossfire required. 6 RAM slots is preferred to 3. A multitude of connection options would also seemingly be helpful to adapt for the future - plus enough fan connectors to manage the 1200's molex connected case fans.

I've read many good things about the affordable AsRock x58 Extreme. At that price point, MSI's x58 Pro-E and Gigabyte's x58-UR3R are similar offerings. Then near the upper tier of mobo's sits the always popular Asus P6T Deluxe V2. The flavor of the month at Newegg is the EVGA 141-BL-E757-TR (not sure if has Xfire support).

From what I (noobish) can tell the AsRock Extreme is little different from the Asus P6T Deluxe V2 in basic specs, but the price is significantly different. Please educate this rube on the differences between the mid-tier and premium LGA 1366 mobo's and advise accordingly

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PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-850HX 850W ATX12V - 80 PLUS SILVER Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply - $190
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139011

Modular is a requirement. I was looking for an 80+ Gold rated psu because I plan to keep this for years to come and would expect to make up any price difference of a premium rated psu in power savings over the years. However, this Corsair is 80+Silver rated, has 6 PCIe power cables, a multitude of sata cables, and is less pricey than the OCZ Z-series 80+Gold modular psu's (which are limited to 4 PCIe cables). My only question is as to whether it would be enough to power a 3rd and/or 4th video card + potentially a Gulftown hexcore cpu.

If not, the 1000w offering from Corsair is currently at $200 on Newegg when including mail-in rebates (deal!), and is otherwise similar, except that it only has the bare 80+ certification and a shorter warranty.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139007

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RAM: OCZ Platinum 6GB (3 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 - $145
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227381

I see this set recommended frequently, and the 7-7-7-24 ratings are decent. Are there better rated offerings around this price point? I don't see the point of spending $210 for the Corsair Dominator kit that is 8-8-8-24. Why the price difference? Should I save a few dollars and get the OCZ Gold kit instead?

If I purchase/install additional RAM in the future, what sort of additional considerations do I need to make for this initial set of 3x2gb RAM?

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CPU COOLER: Probably one of the following: DarkKnight, Scythe Mugen, CM V8, Typhoon III.

Any recommendations? Obviously, I need something that will fit inside my case, and provide ample cpu cooling. Does anyone have a handy link to a comparison specs?

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GPU: Tough call right now. I'd prefer to get 1 card now and another down the road. The 5870 is very tempting because with DX11 support, it should be somewhat "future-proof", plus it can run 3 displays (a set up that I plan to implement in the future). But its also 11" long, and I'm concerned as to how it would fit in the 1200 case behind a filled drive bay.

Otherwise, the 5850 might be a better overall solution. Its shorter (~9.5") and offers the same 'future-proof' features of its big brother. But it hasn't released yet --> does anyone have an idea of when it should be available? I did catch Tom's benchmark review this morning. Impressive performance at ~$260 for a single card/gpu solution.

The alternative would be to grab a pair of 4850 1gb's (or 260's) and upgrade in a year or two.

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HDD: SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 - $50
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152181

The F3 seems to be one of the quicker conventional drives at the moment. I might grab one of these to start and use as a relatively fast system drive until SSD pricing falls a bit further (and the controller technology is improved).

The Intel X25-M and OCZ Vertex SSD lines seem to get the best reviews (apart from the very high-end products).

In the future I may grab 2 or 3 WD Caviar Black 2TB drives for storage -- they also have impressive specs for conventional drive speeds, but currently they seem to be a little over-priced.

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OPTICAL: They all seem about the same to me. Dozens of seemingly identical offerings at $25-$35. If anyone has a specific recommendation, let me know. If possible, something bundled with some burning software would be great.

EDIT: Found this HP dvd burner, retail for the price of oem. Comes with some burning software & a sata cable.

HP Black 24X Multiformat DVD Burner w. LightScribe Support - Retail - $34
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827140041

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That's about it.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much.

More about : long term gaming build

September 30, 2009 7:25:24 PM

Why the P6T over the P6T Deluxe V2?

Or over the AsRock Extreme?

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September 30, 2009 7:28:51 PM

well asrock is also asus, and the v2 is a lil better but you wouldn notice,but the asrock is also good but crossfire only
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September 30, 2009 7:37:14 PM

Upon looking at photos, it appears the PCIe slots are better spaced on the P6T than on the P6T Deluxe V2 - which is good. Apart from that, they are quite similar (P6T uses older audio/lan chipsets) but the P6T has 2 extra sata connections (also good).

Specs for the AsRock Extreme (at newegg) state that this board does provide SLI support as well as Crossfire. Are they incorrect?
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September 30, 2009 7:48:24 PM

i still prefer the asus but the asrock looks apealing it woul be my second option on the ram the ocz plat is good but ppl seem to struggle to get the rated timings out of them, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
, this is good cas 8 ram,and newegg doesn seem to carry the cas 7 1600 mhz ram anymore, the 5870 will fit in just bout any full tower,ocz ssd's tend to be cheaper then the intels,instead of wd 1tb you could get the samsung f3 1tb
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September 30, 2009 8:35:00 PM

4850 should be out rly soon; I wouldn't be surprised if it is in a week from now
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September 30, 2009 8:46:25 PM

I have an antec 900 with a 10.5 inch GPU. There is about an inch left from the end of the card to the drive bay, which would be really tight a drive mounted at that same level. The 1200 is 1.8 inches deeper so even with an extra 1/2inch on the card it should fit.

The 1200 has three 3drive bays plus 3 extra drive slots for a total of 12. It seems to me the best plan is to leave one drive slot open on a bay with a fan to push cold air back to the GPU (which is what I do on my 900).

Either the 1200 or the HAF 932 are good cases. The HAF is generally cheaper and may be a bit quieter with larger fans. The 1200 has more overall air flow (without optional fans) as it has three 120mm fans coming in from the front, two out the back and the big top fan.


The 5850s were supposed to start shipping this week. Last week the 5870s were selling out as soon as they got in stock but this week the availability seems better. zipzoomfly has Diamond 5850s listed as in stock right now.
*edit - and 5 minutes later they are sold out. :heink: 
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September 30, 2009 9:06:59 PM

how doyou find out if it supports that 25mm fan? I have never seen width be a promblem with cpu fans its the fan size that matters
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September 30, 2009 9:12:31 PM

Anything higher than 1600MHz for Ram is a waste for most people.. Check the Ram i posted..
For the fan.. Check Antec 900's (or whatever he use) reviews..
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September 30, 2009 9:18:06 PM

kelfen said:
how doyou find out if it supports that 25mm fan? I have never seen width be a promblem with cpu fans its the fan size that matters

On the CPU you only have to worry about space with the ram or bridge coolers, which is rarely a problem. I thought you were meaning to use them on the case.
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October 1, 2009 6:10:44 AM

Case:

Since the consensus was that a 5870-length (~11") card should fit in the Antec 1200, I went ahead and ordered that case this evening (newegg was offering free shipping on that beast with a promo code ending tonite).

I'll be installing the optional fan on the slot at the side window at some point in the future.... will have to first check if a 38mm depth fan will fit in the bracket.

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RAM:

Quote:
ocz plat is good but ppl seem to struggle to get the rated timings out of them

G.SKILL 6GB (3 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (8-8-8-21) - $145
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231247&cm_re=g_skill_6gb-_-20-231-247-_-Product


Quote:
CORSAIR XMS3 6GB (3 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (7-7-7-20) - $155
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145242&Tpk=corsair


The timings on that Corsair set look very tempting at that price. I'll definitely keep those in mind.

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LGA 1156, i7 860 Recommendation:

I've seen the specs and know that the 860 is a fantastic chip and that the triple channel RAM bandwidth and additional PCIe bandwidth of the LGA 1366 set up is currently invisible in nearly all head-to-head benchmark testing. Plus, the 1156 setup is less expensive.

However, I also know that the upcoming Gulftown hexcore will drop right into a LGA 1366 slot, and I have yet to see much of any information as to where the LGA 1156 socket is heading in the future. Since I plan to use the foundation of this build for many years to come, I have opted for the 1366. In 5 years the additional performance potential of the 1366 socket boards may be more noticable than it is at present.

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GPU:

Its good to know that the 5870 will fit in the 1200.

But I'm also very interested in the 5850.... Newegg listed it today, but its not in stock at the moment.

Still mulling this choice.


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Motherboard:

The Asus P6T looks like a solid choice, even if it is an "older" model.

I still haven't seen a reason why the AsRock Extreme wouldn't be just as suitable.



Also: I don't really understand the term "On Demand" with respect to SLI & X-fire.

For instance, the Asus P6T listing states:

"The Asus P6T features three PCI-E 2.0 slots that support NVIDIA's 3-way SLI or AMD's Quad-GPU CrossFireX configuration on Demand"

Does that mean that I could SLI with 3 single GPU Nvidias or 1 double GPU Nvidia + 1 single GPU Nvidia? Or could I SLI with 3 double GPU Nvidias?

What about Crossfire? Limited to 2 cards? Or 4 GPU's? Or could I run 3 double GPU cards in Crossfire?

Please clarify, thanks.

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CPU Cooler:

I'd appreciate any recommendations on after-market air coolers. The amount of cooling is more important than minor price differences, but I'd rather not spend more than $70, and even then only if the product was substantially better than less expensive offerings.

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PSU:

That Corsair 850HX seems like a solid pick. Its got enough juice for 2 vid cards, but how about 3 (or four)?


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Thanks for all the replies - much appreciated. :love: 
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October 1, 2009 6:17:35 AM

OK.. I'll try and answer most of your questions if i can but wait till i finish the post ;) 
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October 1, 2009 6:35:02 AM

The Antec 1200 is a very good case but personally i prefer Cooler Master HAF 932...
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That's my Ram of choice for i7 9xx :D 
-------
Since you can get the i7 920 D0 for $200 from MicroCenter (if you're near one) and the X58 mobos (P6T or Asrock extreme) are
good enough to be compared to similarly priced high-end P55 mobo with higher "tech".. So for me I'll pick the i7/X58.. I advise you to..
Also even if current gen devices doesn't get advantage from X58's x16 SLI/CF and triple-channel sure next gen will.. Beside if you ever change your mobo the ICH11R (Intel's USB 3.0 and SATA 6GBit/s) will be for the X58 before the P56 (if it's ever released!)
And HD4870X2 surpasses P55's x8 CF by a margin and the HD5870X2 will surely increase that margin..
Also the PCIe3.0 specs and cheets (whatever) will be released by June 2010 and new products (expect mobos before GPUs) will hit the market by November 2010.. (Don't hold me on that as it's what i read so far)..
Read this.. Sorry as most of it is un-answered questions but they should give you general idea
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I don't know about the HD5870 fitting the Antec 1200 but on NewEgg a user managed to fit it in an Antec 900 with light modding so the Antec 1200 should be perfect.. Also the HD5850 should fit in almost all mid-tower cases as it's only 9.5"..
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I'm sorry if I've confused you with my explanation of CF/SLI on demand and such :??: 
It means you can run either SLI or CF whenever you want.. So if you have an ATI card you can CF it or replace it with a nVidia card and SLI it but not both brands at the same time..
So it means you can run:
1 ATI GPU [x16]
2 ATI GPUs (2 PCBs) [x16|x16]
3 ATI GPUs (3 PCBs) [x16|x8|x8]
3 ATI GPUs (2 PCBs eg. HD4870X2 + HD4870) [x16|x16]
4 ATI GPUs (2 PCBs eg. HD4870X2) [x16|x16]
No more than 4 GPUs is possible
Same applies to nVidia's GPUs....
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The CPU cooler Corsair Hydro H50 is very good in my opinion and it's only $79.99 but it's an enclosed water cooling kit..
Also try the FORT or Cocage TRUE spirit..
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The Corsair 850HX is very good but right now the 1000HX is available for the same price after $40 MIR..

I hope i cleared the confusion i earlier made and answered your concerns..

Medo
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October 1, 2009 5:28:31 PM

The 850HX has a single 70A 12V rail. The 1000HX has two 40A 12V rails. I believe that means the 850HX has more total 12V amps than the 1000. Either should certainly run 3 GPUS (which is all they has cables for). That 1000HX is kind of strange. From the amperage chart it looks like twin 500W PSUs in one box.
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October 1, 2009 7:19:06 PM

Quote:
Since you can get the i7 920 D0 for $200 from MicroCenter (if you're near one)


Really? I'll be in Chicago this weekend and will have to pop into the Microcenter there and see if that deal is still available. I cannot find any info on it at their website. If anyone has a link with this info & price, please post it. Thanks.

Edit: Found it. http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0302727

That's a steal.


Quote:
the X58 mobos (P6T or Asrock extreme) are good enough to be compared to similarly priced high-end P55 mobo with higher "tech".. So for me I'll pick the i7/X58.. I advise you to..

Also even if current gen devices doesn't get advantage from X58's x16 SLI/CF and triple-channel sure next gen will.. Beside if you ever change your mobo the ICH11R (Intel's USB 3.0 and SATA 6GBit/s) will be for the X58 before the P56 (if it's ever released!)

And HD4870X2 surpasses P55's x8 CF by a margin and the HD5870X2 will surely increase that margin..

Also the PCIe3.0 specs and cheets (whatever) will be released by June 2010 and new products (expect mobos before GPUs) will hit the market by November 2010.. (Don't hold me on that as it's what i read so far)..

Read this.. Sorry as most of it is un-answered questions but they should give you general idea


I originally put off building this rig when the 1366 chips were released some months ago hoping to wait for the next gen USB/Sata protocols to hit the market, but they kept being pushed back, and at this point I can't bear waiting any longer for a new machine. But if I was always waiting for the next tech release to hit, I suppose I'd never get a new machine.... so its time for me to get off the fence.

That link is great, but like you said: it raises more questions than it answers. My brain hurts just trying to prioritize the possible future component upgrade options.

6.4gz Gulftown OC?! That's ridiculous. :pt1cable: 



Quote:
I'm sorry if I've confused you with my explanation of CF/SLI on demand and such :??: 
It means you can run either SLI or CF whenever you want.. So if you have an ATI card you can CF it or replace it with a nVidia card and SLI it but not both brands at the same time..

So it means you can run:
1 ATI GPU [x16]
2 ATI GPUs (2 PCBs) [x16|x16]
3 ATI GPUs (3 PCBs) [x16|x8|x8]
3 ATI GPUs (2 PCBs eg. HD4870X2 + HD4870) [x16|x16]
4 ATI GPUs (2 PCBs eg. HD4870X2) [x16|x16]
No more than 4 GPUs is possible
Same applies to nVidia's GPUs....


Thanks for clearing that up.



Quote:
The CPU cooler Corsair Hydro H50 is very good in my opinion and it's only $79.99 but it's an enclosed water cooling kit..
Also try the FORT or Cocage TRUE spirit..


I'm going to stick with air-cooling (if water cooling, I might have gone with a Cosmos case). Based on the reviews I've read today, the DarkKnight or the Mugen2 look like good choices for solid performance at a reasonable price.


Thanks again for the advice
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Best solution

October 1, 2009 9:28:29 PM

Responds are written in Bold in the following quotes...
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dndhatcher said:
The 850HX has a single 70A 12V rail. The 1000HX has two 40A 12V rails. I believe that means the 850HX has more total 12V amps than the 1000. Either should certainly run 3 GPUS (which is all they has cables for). That 1000HX is kind of strange. From the amperage chart it looks like twin 500W PSUs in one box.

Agreed.. But it worth stating!


rnalvine said:

Really? I'll be in Chicago this weekend and will have to pop into the Microcenter there and see if that deal is still available. I cannot find any info on it at their website. If anyone has a link with this info & price, please post it. Thanks.

Edit: Found it. http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0302727

That's a steal.

Good for you :D  So you're getting the i7 9xx ?

I originally put off building this rig when the 1366 chips were released some months ago hoping to wait for the next gen USB/Sata protocols to hit the market, but they kept being pushed back, and at this point I can't bear waiting any longer for a new machine. But if I was always waiting for the next tech release to hit, I suppose I'd never get a new machine.... so its time for me to get off the fence.

The Marvell (SATA 6GBit/s) chip is already released and is being used in Asus's P55 Premium main-board.. (Had problems but they (Asus) made a temporary workaround with some drawbacks.. HOWEVER! the X58 platform will handle the same workaround much better due to more PCIe2.0 lanes (Mobos most of the time use only 32 lanes (3-way SLI/CF x16|x8|x8.. While the X58 chip has 36 lanes (4 available) and this is enough for 8 SATA 6GBit/s ports :wahoo:  And the X58 mobos lineup refresh should be like Nov.15th 2009+ if not earlier but all of this (dates) is speculation by me of how it might be... Also NEC's chip for USB3.0 is already out and prototypes of laptops using them have been showed.. I don't know how it works now so can't say how it might be with the X58 or anything else (Has anyone noticed that there's no USB3.0 or SATA 6G controllers available for AMD CPUs ??!!)

That link is great, but like you said: it raises more questions than it answers. My brain hurts just trying to prioritize the possible future component upgrade options.

By the time someone finds an answer for my last question.. Another 5 questions would be already posted by me :sarcastic:  So I'm right now surfing the other sections for people that have knowledge in each part of my thread (gathering the PM list right now :)  )
Right now i don't have anything but words, images and thoughts about technology (Nothing physical :(  ) so my brain got to it :D 


6.4gz Gulftown OC?! That's ridiculous. :pt1cable: 

Intel is really working hard on this one.. They are willing to knock AMD out of business with the release of GulfTown for high-end and the delayed (un-confirmed) launch of the i3 processors (not sure if there's any!
If you think this is really ridiculous then see this
, this, this and finally this!!! It's too futuristic but i wanted to show it to you..

Quote:
I'm sorry if I've confused you with my explanation of CF/SLI on demand and such :??: 
It means you can run either SLI or CF whenever you want.. So if you have an ATI card you can CF it or replace it with a nVidia card and SLI it but not both brands at the same time.... (shortened)


Thanks for clearing that up.

And of course it has to be the same chip.. Not necessarily the same card..

Quote:
The CPU cooler Corsair Hydro H50 is very good in my opinion and it's only $79.99 but it's an enclosed water cooling kit..
Also try the FORT or Cocage TRUE spirit..


I'm going to stick with air-cooling (if water cooling, I might have gone with a Cosmos case). Based on the reviews I've read today, the DarkKnight or the Mugen2 look like good choices for solid performance at a reasonable price.

If you're getting the i7 920 and OC'ing it to like 3.6GHz then they would be fine otherwise Rosewill's FORT is a good option (this Rosewill product is surprisingly very good!!)..


Thanks again for the advice

You're welcome :sol: 
Share
October 2, 2009 5:24:58 PM

In reply:

Yes - I'll be picking up a i7-920-d0 @ microcenter tomorrow for $215.49 (w tax).

I'd love to have Sata 6gb/USB 3.0/PCIe 3.0, but I'm not waiting any longer. Sata 6gb would be the most important (imo) in the event that SSD's get bigger & faster in the coming years (which they certainly will). But as it stands, I don't think there's any single storage product that will use anywhere near 3 gb/sec of bandwidth. So I guess I'll just have to live without Sata 6gb on this build.

Also: looks like Im going with the Scythe Mugen 2 ($37 + $7 shipping). That thing is a beast, but it should fit inside the 1200. With its excessive length, you can mount 4x120mm fans on it. 1 pair in push/pull to blow out towards the 1200's top case fan & another pair blowing out towards the 1200's rear case fan. At 16cm tall and 900 grams its gonna eat up some space, but it should do the job well enough.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835185093
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October 2, 2009 7:37:40 PM

Final parts list:

Case: Antec Twelve Hundred Black Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case - Retail - $159.99

CPU: Intel Core i7 920 Nehalem 2.66GHz Quad-Core Processor - Retail - $215.49 (w. tax @ microcenter)

PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-850HX 850W 80 PLUS SILVER Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply - Retail - $199.99

Mobo: ASRock X58 Extreme LGA 1366 Intel X58 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail - $169.99

RAM: CORSAIR XMS3 6GB (3 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) (7-7-7-20) - $129.99

GPU: SAPPHIRE 100281SR Radeon HD 5870 - $379.99

HDD: SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 500GB Internal Hard Drive - OEM - $49.99

Optical: HP 24X Multiformat DVD Burner Black SATA Model 1270i LightScribe Support - Retail - $33.99

CPU Cooler: Scythe MUGEN-2 SCMG-2000 120mm Sleeve CPU Cooler - Retail - $36.99


Subtotal $1,376.41
Shipping $14.65
Mail-In Rebate: -$10

Total: $1,381.06



As stated, I plan to add some parts in the future - but this should be enough to get me up and running very nicely.
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October 2, 2009 10:39:06 PM

Good.. But wait for XFX's HD5870 for the lifetime warranty or get the HIS one.. At this point considering that all models are 100% reference then the vendor is the main and only rule in choice...
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