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ATi trying too hard?

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October 21, 2009 1:37:33 AM

http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/16029/1/

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2009/10/14/amd_briefing_...

Is it just me or are ATI trying their hardest to Slag off Nvidia!?

If ATI were soo ahead of the game and their products are soo great etc...Then why are they trying their hardest to get HD5xxx series out the door?

To me it sounds like AMD is cacking their pants...

ATI looks to be getting as many cards out the door as possible before Nvidia's Fermi hits the shelves...releasing mainstream and high end cards so closely together isnt the norm? Is this because they fear what Fermi brings?? Will their cards suddenly become inferior?? This is what it looks like theyre thinking to me?

Theyre saying 'oooo look they are some DX11 games coming soon so BUY NOW NOW NOW!!!'

But again, their cards are great and better than the competition, right? so why be soo pushy?

They're presentation is petty and has some rediculas comparisons (ie 1600cores vs 512cores) as this is not relevant at all to actual performance! They try to point out everything bad about Fermi....Why bother if theyre soo confident in their new cards?!

Remember the last time Nvidia introduced ne architecture? YEP, the G80??? It was an absolubte GEM and crapped all over the competiton!! Are ATI fearing this all over again???

I mean the 5850 and 5870 arent exactly a great achivement are they? The 5850 barely beats the GTX 285 and the 5870 is about 20-30% faster...not a great achivement is it?

ATI doubled 4870 specs (approx.) to get 5870...right? Which gives rougly double pefromance.

So, say, Nvidia double the GTX 280 performance to get GTX380....this is gonna dominate ...about 30-40% faster AT LEAST. But Nvida have MORE than doubled the Cores....to 512? So maybe even faster STILL. And what if this new architecture is like the G80 and throws out great results....that makes it even faster STILL. Surley this spells trouble for ATI???

ATI are playing dirty...even when theyre on top...jus seems strange to me????

opinions please...

More about : ati hard

a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 1:48:22 AM

AMD should use everything in their arsenal to kill of Nvidia. Why should they lay off while they are on top? You realise that AMD are a guiltless company who have been picked on by intel and nvidia since day 1?

I *hope* AMD start to be merciless. I hope AMD crush Nvidia mercilessly, finishing them off before they get the chance to come back. Intel made that mistake with AMD, now AMD should use that experience to kill off Nvidia before turning on intel.

Nvidia would do the same, and have tried to do it many times before.
October 21, 2009 1:51:37 AM

jennh summed it up pretty well...business is business, and all businesses, including AMD, are out to make money, and that involves crushing the competition :) 
Related resources
a c 130 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 21, 2009 1:52:30 AM

I am company A. Company B, my rival, has had the lead in the technology we both share. I have just released my new series of cards, while company B still hasn't. I think I will use this time to sell as many cards as possible, and also get some of the market share from company B.

nVid renamed the same card three times, as well as renamed tons of other cards.
nVid would rather get money than loyal consumers.
nVid FAKED FERMI. PERIOD.

a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 1:55:12 AM

ATI aren't doing anything illegal here. ATI aren't hurting us, the consumers. All they are doing is pointing out the facts that we know right now.

From ATI's pov, Nvidia released the fermi specs 1 week after the 5870 was released. That was designed to hurt 5870 sales and nothing else.

Tell me...why shouldn't ATI put the pressure on Nvidia again? They should. ATI should do everything legally in their power to hurt nvidia.
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 2:10:40 AM

Yeah... AMD/ATI would try hard to knock off their competetor. I mean even though the release of these cards have been insanely spontaneous. AMD is doing a great job. They keep true to the AMD/ATI of being cheaper but also outpreforming the competetor. nVidia hadn't really done anything after the GTX i believe other than Fermi so they might as well take advantage. Plus this would give AMD/ATI a chance to fix any errors in there newer chips if there were to be any by giving a run at it.
October 21, 2009 2:11:20 AM

I agree that any company would jump on the opportuinty....but the way theyre going about it seems petty...

ill translations (2% yeilds)....

'Look at how crap Fermi is' presentations even though the dont have a clue about its real performance...

The amount of times they want to point out that their cards are 'shipping now' ...arent ATI normally the 2nd company to produce???

They just seem soo pathetic at the mo! They're scared...thats not to say they dont have any reason to be....they get trounced every generation!! They're only fighting point these last few years has been low price points.
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 21, 2009 2:26:05 AM

And you go talking like you know what Fermi's performance is :lol:  Face it, nobody knows. Well, hopefully NVidia has some clue by now, but even that isn't guaranteed as drivers definitely aren't finalized. What company hasn't put out something like this? A little propaganda now and then doesn't hurt anyone.
October 21, 2009 2:35:17 AM

uh... dude if you you were a businessperson, wouldn't you try to get your products sold?

they do what they have to to make money... it's not wrong, it's not unjust. they're playing the game, and they're playing it well.
October 21, 2009 2:36:32 AM

EXT64 said:
And you go talking like you know what Fermi's performance is :lol:  Face it, nobody knows. Well, hopefully NVidia has some clue by now, but even that isn't guaranteed as drivers definitely aren't finalized. What company hasn't put out something like this? A little propaganda now and then doesn't hurt anyone.



I was merely pointing out a possible situation :D  (Although i do expect Fermi's single GPU to be atleast 40-50% faster than 5870, hehe. I got my nomex suit on, flame me all you want :kaola:  )

a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 2:38:06 AM

As long as Nvidia is still alive, ATI will need to try hard...the result is the consumer/customers win.

a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 21, 2009 2:54:30 AM

No problem. Hopefully we will know the truth soon though (I'm interested to see how it all plays out).
October 21, 2009 3:12:18 AM

Its just i dont recall any Nvidia presentations pointing out all the possible bad things about ATI's cards or Nvidia distibuting false claims about ATI's cards....and Nvidia are on top 80% of the time. Although correct me if im wrong!!!

It just seems to me that ATI are scared so are trying to cause as much damage as possible while trying REALLY REALLY hard to convince people to buy their cards NOW before Fermi hits the shelves! The only reason they would try soo soo soo hard is because they fear whats coming.
October 21, 2009 3:21:30 AM

No, the reason they would try so hard is because it's the smart thing to do. Even if Fermi is perfectly equal to the HD 5xxx series in price and performance, ATi will sell fewer cards to people who wait than people who don't, hence, they would rather people not wait.

Think about it this way, if you make a widget, and everyone who wants a widget has to buy yours because you make the only one, you get 100% of the widget sales. If someone else makes the exact same widget, now you get closer to 50% of the widget sales (keeping price/performance/features the same, and excluding marketing/brand name/etc.).
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 3:39:42 AM

Smoggy, umm no offence. But your way wrong. If i don't remember reading it correctly 4850 series can match up to the 250gts and 9800 gt and 9800gtx. And which the 4850 is for 100$ on Newegg I'd rather buy that.
October 21, 2009 3:46:30 AM

why would you buy a 8800ultra NOW?

My point was people that bought an 8800Ultra at the time it came out had 2-3yrs at the top without needing / wanting to upgrade!



The problem im having is: HD5870/50 ards are already selling themselves...like hot cakes in fact, soo much so they cant cope with demand...there is litterally none in stock anywhere...so why is ATI giving low blows to this company that arnt even a threat yet and tryin to soo hard to sell their cards that they cant even get onto the shelves quick enough!!!???
October 21, 2009 4:03:42 AM

smoggy12345 said:
I was merely pointing out a possible situation :D  (Although i do expect Fermi's single GPU to be atleast 40-50% faster than 5870, hehe. I got my nomex suit on, flame me all you want :kaola:  )


Fanboy alert! :sarcastic:  :sarcastic:  :sarcastic: 
October 21, 2009 4:06:39 AM

smoggy12345 said:
why would you buy a 8800ultra NOW?

My point was people that bought an 8800Ultra at the time it came out had 2-3yrs at the top without needing / wanting to upgrade!



The problem im having is: HD5870/50 ards are already selling themselves...like hot cakes in fact, soo much so they cant cope with demand...there is litterally none in stock anywhere...so why is ATI giving low blows to this company that arnt even a threat yet and tryin to soo hard to sell their cards that they cant even get onto the shelves quick enough!!!???


Yeh, amd quit trying so hard, its a bad business strategy according to smoggy. :pt1cable:  :pt1cable:  :pt1cable:  :lol: 
a c 194 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 21, 2009 4:10:50 AM

If you didnt notice, at the bottom of those slides it says AMD confidential, AKA meant for internal presentation only, not for the general public. They need something to call it internally, and the paper dragon boosts company moral. And remember, any promotion AMD is putting out now is not meant for the AMD fanboy, or really even the average thinking consumer who looks at benchmarks, its designed to hit at the nVidia fanboys because if they can take that market share it will help them a lot in the long run.

And just because your card sells well doesnt mean you shouldnt advertise it, it means you should advertise it more and keep them selling, the fact that they are sold out looks good, and the more early adopters they get the fewer people who will be getting a fermi, especially if it doesnt come out until after christmas. There is no such thing as trying to hard to sell something, and with the way nVidia was spouting CUDA this and CUDA and breaking it so ATI systems cannot have PhysX they should expect some red retribution, its only fair that it goes both ways.
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 4:21:58 AM

I can't tell if your sarcastic homeboy2 lol. But umm i agree with Hunter, its not like you'll stop advertising something thats selling well.
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 21, 2009 5:41:39 AM

smoggy12345 said:
opinions please...


So naive, so much to learn. :lol: 

This is the norm for the GPU market, if anything the roles have just been reverse.

Interesting that they have an issue with this but seem fine with the whole paper/wood-screw launch to begin with !?! [:thegreatgrapeape:5]

Last time ATi did something like this in reply to nV was the classic BS bingo in reply to nV's FUD.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1041260/outrag...

Interesting that Fuad's crew didn't post the link to the stats page which is more interesting than the other page;

http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTI1NTQ3MDM3NXl...

Of course this presentation was LAST week, but nice to see Fudzilla is, once again..., right on the cutting edge. :pt1cable: 

Once again a good old french saying: The more things change, the more they stay the same. :wahoo: 

Wake me up when Fermi/G300 is in stores. :sleep: 
October 21, 2009 6:00:01 AM

Business is Business although some times it's on the board-line err i don't remember the right words but they mis lead and lie to people who don't know better all the time. Does BFG really think i'd buy a 6200 with 1 GIG of ddr2 memory for a 100 bucks at best buy, no but we know someone eventually will get suckered into it.

AMD crushing Nvidia i find hilarious, Nvidia will strach and rip your balls off to get ahead. What other company can make the shittist card NV30(5xxx) chips and sell more then their competitor which cost less and performs way better. OFc the roles were reversed with R600 from ATI and shitty cards loyal fanbase got screwed then.

Nvidia is worth about the same as AMD, AMD has intel to worry about.

AMD playing a little below the belt wont change much because nvidia can easily sink lower and they have there is a reason they are number 2 in the graphic biz (intel being number one nothing sells more then laptops shoved with barely functional igp's from intel with intel cpu's!)

Also what is up with AMD and dragons? Paper dragon is that an insult it's still a kick ass dragon?!

And if AMD's dragon platform is made of metal

and metal is earth

and earth is rock

Paper beats Rock

They just admitted defeat GG. Should have called them scissors dragon.
October 21, 2009 6:06:43 AM

IzzyCraft said:
Business is Business although some times it's on the board-line err i don't remember the right words but they mis lead and lie to people who don't know better all the time. Does BFG really think i'd buy a 6200 with 1 GIG of ddr2 memory for a 100 bucks at best buy, no but we know someone eventually will get suckered into it.

AMD crushing Nvidia i find hilarious, Nvidia will strach and rip your balls off to get ahead. What other company can make the shittist card NV30(5xxx) chips and sell more then their competitor which cost less and performs way better. OFc the roles were reversed with R600 from ATI and shitty cards loyal fanbase got screwed then.

Nvidia is worth about the same as AMD, AMD has intel to worry about.

AMD playing a little below the belt wont change much because nvidia can easily sink lower and they have there is a reason they are number 2 in the graphic biz (intel being number one nothing sells more then laptops shoved with barely functional igp's from intel with intel cpu's!)

Also what is up with AMD and dragons? Paper dragon is that an insult it's still a kick ass dragon?!

And if AMD's dragon platform is made of metal

and metal is earth

and earth is rock

Paper beats Rock

They just admitted defeat GG. Should have called them scissors dragon.


yeh, Nvidia is really kicking amd's ass! :sarcastic:  :sarcastic:  :sarcastic: 

a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 21, 2009 6:42:00 AM

smoggy12345 said:
Its just i dont recall any Nvidia presentations pointing out all the possible bad things about ATI's cards or Nvidia distibuting false claims about ATI's cards....and Nvidia are on top 80% of the time. Although correct me if im wrong!!!


So naive and so wrong. :pfff: 

nV have FUDed all over the place, you're just obviously not very aware of the graphic segment;
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1025586/nvidia...

I have a few other examples on some HDD somewhere as part as an old 'My Documents' portfolio, if any are entertaining I'll add them here.

As for being on top;

ATi was on top with R9700, X800, X1900, and now HD5870. Potentially HD4870X2 if you count that way but I was counting by GPU.

nV ontop with GF4, GF7800, GF8800, GTX280; don't see 80% there.


smoggy12345 said:

The amount of times they want to point out that their cards are 'shipping now' ...arent ATI normally the 2nd company to produce???


Depends on what counts as a product, but once again you really are unaware of the past aren't you? :heink: 

R8500 predates GF3, and came with DX8.1/PS1.4 vs DX8.0/PS1.3
R9700 predates FX5800 series, and came with working DX9 versus DX8.1+; and further R9800 came before FX5900
X800 actually came out before GF6800 which was paper launched before the X800.
X1900 came out before GF7900.

What counts in the whole HD38xx or HD38zz versus G8x/G9x I guess is hard to determine.

But overall, not really much 'normal' about it, just more recently following.

Anywhoo, you once again complain about them compiling figures from the 'unknown' (which is actually based on the core speed required to match nV's performance for DP if you read the actual #s) yet you have no problem guesstimating overall performance when you have even less information, like do you still know what their Texture and RBE configuration is like?

Sofar it seems like you already had your mind set before any of this came to light. :pfff: 
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 6:42:06 AM

OMG. This forum is beginning to be just like anandtech's forums. nVidia fanboys everywhere beating the logic out of people that have anything wrong to say about their precious company. Lets take a look for a second at the GPU market now:
- ATI released the 58xx series for the high end;
- ATI released the 57xx series for the main stream;
- ATI still has stock for the 48xx+47xx series for the low-main streams;

nVidia has:
- a woodshed made card which is working on paper and behold ... they are marketing it as a great step in super computing...gaming..hmm not so much.
- the 2xx series which are crushed in benchmarks by the 58xx series (yeah the 295 is still better if you want drops from 200 FPS to 0 FPS)

Yep, now I see, nVidia is winning all over the place :sarcastic:  :sarcastic:  :sarcastic: 
October 21, 2009 6:59:30 AM

bawhaha fanboy bashing. by Nvidia wrong but by ATI fan boys so right. By the way nice 2 dragons doing hyper beam pic

My post was obviously mostly a joke

Nvidia is worth the same as AMD, AMD has cpu's and gpus to make
In terms of assets and worth and market share Nvidia is most likely winning.

Really the issue here is the large gap between release i don't really remeber it being like err

5xxx was lauched 2 weeks ago so i'll say a month im horrible judging time

And nvidia at best is said to be around Christmas

step, oct, nov, dec.

4 months is a large gap to me as far as i remember the usual is like 1 or 2 months max.

Saying the company totally better then the other due to an earlier release of the next round of crap esp in the tech industry is mostly a load of crap things change to quickly.

Nvidia and ATI are fine companies competing with each other in the dedicated gpu market as they should be. We been lucky so far as Nvidia and ATI are pretty even in market share although nvidia is a bit ahead so the competition has been good, unlike fail face AMD who totally lost by 2006 ish it's chance to really take on intel.

ATI: Has a newer gen card a good solid time before nvidia's realize that is what they have going for them a good few months of unquestionable performance on it's competitor too bad a few months don't make up the majority of sales esp in the dedicated card sector. It's good for ATI, ATI is behind a bit by my estimate and a few more bucks should help them be a stronger company more competition better cards and more suicides! j/k on the suicides oh but who knows more competition more stress on the competitors woot tangent
end
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 7:09:01 AM

It's called marketing. Usually it's full of BS (whether true or false), you should know that. Companies will throw dirt whenever they can to demote the competition. If you saw how much the two largest and most competitive free-to-air TV stations in Australia bashed the crap out of each other, you'd find this quite mild.
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 7:18:18 AM

I am not trying to be a fanboy of any company, but I do hate when other people just dismiss things out of pure fanboism. And Izzycraft, I wasn't referring to you. This forum is mostly composed of people who see the value of a good card no matter from that company it is.
Try going to anandtech and watch how the nVidia support group nVidiots smash and bash any logical argument regarding ATI and their leadership of the current market (even some moderators :o  do that). From my point of view the Fermi cards will be a disappointment no matter how much performance they bring to the table because due to the large die size and the technology packed in them they will probably cost an arm and a leg.
No matter how you turn it, ATI is leading the market today with a good product lineup which brings performance at an affordable price and for once I wish I could see this as a recognized fact by the nVidia fans.
October 21, 2009 11:27:52 AM

hallowed_dragon said:

(yeah the 295 is still better if you want drops from 200 FPS to 0 FPS)

ATIFanboy alert!!!
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 11:47:56 AM

michaelmk86 said:
ATIFanboy alert!!!


Thank you for your quick and productive labeling :p  . I was just trying to highlight the problem with dual GPU cards - lame ### problem with min FPS, this applies to the 4870x2, 9800x2 and 3870x2. I just used the 295 as an example because it so far the fastest GPU on the market (until driver updates and 5950 or 5970). Your insightful post and really strong arguments really opened my eyes at the discussion :sarcastic: 
October 21, 2009 12:09:07 PM

hallowed_dragon said:
I was just trying to highlight the problem with dual GPU cards - lame ### problem with min FPS

That is a myth that needs to die.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-h...
As you can see the GTX295 get higher min fps than every single card on these benchmarks, except at 2560x1600 because of the small amount of memory 2x896. ;) 
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 12:23:06 PM

michaelmk86 said:
That is a myth that needs to die.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-h...
As you can see the GTX295 get higher min fps than every single card on these benchmarks, except at 2560x1600 because of the small amount of memory 2x896. ;) 


Is that the case here?
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/23415-sapphire-radeon-hd-5870-1gb-gddr5-review-11.html
Isn't the 275 896 MB too? Or the 260? And FYI we are talking high end so we are referring only to resolutions of 19x12 or higher :p  The problem is that low min FPS affect dual GPU cards. So I think that a single GPU card close in performance with a dual GPU card will always be the best choice (no matter if the single GPU card is nVidia or ATI)
October 21, 2009 12:41:29 PM

I have to disagree with you here. :kaola: 
The new generations dual GPU (4870x2, GTX295) do not suffer from min fps, on the other hand the old (9800GX2, 3870x2) have problems min fps.
In the benchmark that you show me the 4870x2 get higher min fps than the 5870.
Also the GTX295 get double the min fps than the GTX260, except at 2560x1600(really the GTX295 sucks at this resolution).
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 12:51:40 PM

michaelmk86 said:
I have to disagree with you here. :kaola: 
The new generations dual GPU (4870x2, GTX295) do not suffer from min fps, on the other hand the old (9800GX2, 3870x2) have problems min fps.
In the benchmark that you show me the 4870x2 get higher min fps than the 5870.
Also the GTX295 get double the min fps than the GTX260, except at 2560x1600(really the GTX295 sucks at this resolution).


Ok then, so what you are saying is that dual GPU cards don't have a problem with min FPS, only the flagship video card of nVidia sucks at enthusiast resolutions (target market for the card). :kaola:  You are still proving my point that at this moment nVidia doesn't have anything to fight ATI. :whistle: 
October 21, 2009 1:07:03 PM

hallowed_dragon said:
Ok then, so what you are saying is that dual GPU cards don't have a problem with min FPS, only the flagship video card of nVidia sucks at enthusiast resolutions (target market for the card). :kaola: 

No the target market for this card is 1920x1200, very few people have monitors with 2560x1600.


hallowed_dragon said:
You are still proving my point that at this moment nVidia doesn't have anything to fight ATI. :whistle: 

I thought that the argument was between dual GPU vs single GPU not nvidia vs ati… :??: 
October 21, 2009 1:20:13 PM

smoggy12345 said:

If ATI were soo ahead of the game and their products are soo great etc...Then why are they trying their hardest to get HD5xxx series out the door?

To me it sounds like AMD is cacking their pants...

ATI looks to be getting as many cards out the door as possible before Nvidia's Fermi hits the shelves...releasing mainstream and high end cards so closely together isnt the norm? Is this because they fear what Fermi brings?? Will their cards suddenly become inferior?? This is what it looks like theyre thinking to me?

Trolling much? :sarcastic:  AMD is simply taking over GPUs market while they can. I dont know if they fear Fermi, should they? Do they fear Larrabee too? ;)  We have no idea how good (or bad) Fermi will be, so instead of fearing of the unknown, AMD takes as much share and profit as they reasonably can. When competition arrives (Fermi/Larrabee/PowerVR, whatever), they'll adjust. Its much easier to do when you are leader, and winning across all markets, with cheap to manufacture cards.

smoggy12345 said:

Theyre saying 'oooo look they are some DX11 games coming soon so BUY NOW NOW NOW!!!'

But again, their cards are great and better than the competition, right? so why be soo pushy?

What would you do in AMD place? "Dont buy our cards! No rush, wait for competition to arrive sometime in the future!" :p 

smoggy12345 said:

Remember the last time Nvidia introduced ne architecture? YEP, the G80??? It was an absolubte GEM and crapped all over the competiton!! Are ATI fearing this all over again???

I mean the 5850 and 5870 arent exactly a great achivement are they? The 5850 barely beats the GTX 285 and the 5870 is about 20-30% faster...not a great achivement is it?

I dont get it... G80 was a gem, and yet lost to GX2, 5870 is a gem... but is losing to X2. Noticing the pattern? With drivers updates G80 eventually managed to outperform GX2, while 5870 is also lagging behind by a small margin, nothing drivers wouldnt fix. If you go for the extreme settings (2560 with 8xAA), 5870 beats GTX295 handily already.

smoggy12345 said:

So, say, Nvidia double the GTX 280 performance to get GTX380....this is gonna dominate ...about 30-40% faster AT LEAST. But Nvida have MORE than doubled the Cores....to 512? So maybe even faster STILL. And what if this new architecture is like the G80 and throws out great results....that makes it even faster STILL. Surley this spells trouble for ATI???

ATI are playing dirty...even when theyre on top...jus seems strange to me????

opinions please...

We dont know how fast Fermi will be, doubling doesnt mean doubling of performance, plus its new architecture, plus a lot of silicon will be spend on GPGPU, which rarely will translate to better gaming performance as well. So we dont know anything regarding Fermi gaming performance, and even though I wouldnt be surprised if it would be faster than 5870, how about 5870 X2? Fermi X2 will be much harder to do, and if they cut down too much, will it be faster than competition? Lets not forget Nvidia will release bigger quantities by the time AMD will have refresh ready (5890?), how it will fair then? Its all question marks and no answers atm.

About being dirty, AMD is nowhere near Nvidia level, and those slides to quote Kyle from HardOCP: "I am not going to editorialize a lot here except to say I find very little I can disagree with AMD on this. "
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 1:27:19 PM

michaelmk86 said:
No the target market for this card is 1920x1200, very few people have monitors with 2560x1600.



I thought that the argument was between dual GPU vs single GPU not nvidia vs ati… :??: 


My initial argument was about the state in which nVidia is in the current market. You started to prove me that the current GPU cards don't have a min FPS problem, except the 295 at 25x16. Second if you start comparing cards at 1920x1200 we can put 2 cards in Crossfire/SLI for less than the 295 with better performance, so maybe that resolution is not the cards' target, but the 25x16 resolution with another 295 in SLI. Because some people only follow the herd the 295 became a 19x12 card, although at that resolution there are better solutions for gaming.
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 21, 2009 2:20:52 PM

michaelmk86 said:
No the target market for this card is 1920x1200, very few people have monitors with 2560x1600.


Except for the people who would buy a GTX295, where a 2560x1600 LCD would be more common than for those looking at single or mid-range cards. What's your argument for that; "the GTX295 is a great card for more money (or worse $600 at launch)... unless you want to play at the highest settings, then you should buy the cheaper single GPU card" ? :pt1cable: 

Quote:
I thought that the argument was between dual GPU vs single GPU not nvidia vs ati… :??: 


It's both, or were you not reading the thread you're posting in, or the ? :heink: 
You even say it yourself, the GTX295 seems to have the min fps issue (plus the 0 fps issue), something that doesn't happen as pronounced on the HD4K dual GPU solution, or do you not understand what you yourself write?

The 0 fps issue whatever the reason for it (not enough memory, poor drivers, whatever), the result is still 0 fps as he mentioned;
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5870,2422...
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5870,2422...
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5870,2422...
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5870,2422...

That's alot of 0 fps, which is why the comment is accurate even if there is a favouritism in it, whereas your reply offers nothing but fanboi angst. which I gues is keeping in line with the original theme of this thread. :lol: 

The fact is however that performance drops happen on both;
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2009/09/23/ai...

It's rarer to see 0 fps on the HD4K solution than on the nVidia solutions, where this drop even happens on single GPU solutions that have the same amount of memory as their counterparts;

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/1...
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/2...
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/1...

Also stop being so obtuse, you didn't read and post in this thread because it's about dual GPUs, that's just the 'in' you decided to latch on to as if you had something to counter the statement of low fps, but in fact you only proved him right, and tried to explain it off with the lame 'low memory' answer, which is obviously a poor excuse that doesn't prove out by tests. :sarcastic: 
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 3:47:25 PM

Someone fix the thread title to "Smoggy12345 Trying Too Hard".

Smoggy, every point you bring up is quite dubious. It's as though you're trying so hard to find fault with anything ATi is doing that you've lost overall context completely.
October 21, 2009 3:49:39 PM

Kudos to AMd/Ati for bringing a great EE price/performance product
a c 130 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 21, 2009 4:31:21 PM

AMD is only doing what is obvious and predictable for a company.
October 21, 2009 4:55:12 PM

A company taking cheap shots? trying to sell their products? Whatever shall we do!
Seriously, Smoggy, you aren't saying that AMD/ATI needs to allow Nvidia to have some more market share...are you? That would be laughable..
October 21, 2009 5:43:13 PM

Well I give up reading threads in this forum about ATI vs NVid. People are just too stubborn to admit anything against their favorite company.

Every company does marketing like this. Get over it.

Until GT300's come out, Nvid is losing.
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 7:24:00 PM

smoggy12345 said:
http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/16029/1/

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2009/10/14/amd_briefing_...

Is it just me or are ATI trying their hardest to Slag off Nvidia!?

If ATI were soo ahead of the game and their products are soo great etc...Then why are they trying their hardest to get HD5xxx series out the door?

To me it sounds like AMD is cacking their pants...

ATI looks to be getting as many cards out the door as possible before Nvidia's Fermi hits the shelves...releasing mainstream and high end cards so closely together isnt the norm? Is this because they fear what Fermi brings?? Will their cards suddenly become inferior?? This is what it looks like theyre thinking to me?

Theyre saying 'oooo look they are some DX11 games coming soon so BUY NOW NOW NOW!!!'

But again, their cards are great and better than the competition, right? so why be soo pushy?

They're presentation is petty and has some rediculas comparisons (ie 1600cores vs 512cores) as this is not relevant at all to actual performance! They try to point out everything bad about Fermi....Why bother if theyre soo confident in their new cards?!

Remember the last time Nvidia introduced ne architecture? YEP, the G80??? It was an absolubte GEM and crapped all over the competiton!! Are ATI fearing this all over again???

I mean the 5850 and 5870 arent exactly a great achivement are they? The 5850 barely beats the GTX 285 and the 5870 is about 20-30% faster...not a great achivement is it?

ATI doubled 4870 specs (approx.) to get 5870...right? Which gives rougly double pefromance.

So, say, Nvidia double the GTX 280 performance to get GTX380....this is gonna dominate ...about 30-40% faster AT LEAST. But Nvida have MORE than doubled the Cores....to 512? So maybe even faster STILL. And what if this new architecture is like the G80 and throws out great results....that makes it even faster STILL. Surley this spells trouble for ATI???

ATI are playing dirty...even when theyre on top...jus seems strange to me????

opinions please...

OK, lets start from the top.
Why is ATI trying soo hard? Hmmm.. maybe they DO have the only DX11 cards out, and its a great advantage, and their price/perf is currently unachievable by the competition?
Getting as many cards out the door, with people complaining about availability means: theyre selling like hotcakes, no wonder theyre trying so hard, they have obviously something great to offer at decent pricing, and again, with no competition.
Fear, Uncertaintity and Doubt. Oh noes!!!
Yes, its obvious that ATI is fearful of fermi, thats why theyre selling soo many cards they cant keep up.
Yes, ATI is saying, lets all move along now, since weve had DX10.1 for quite awhile now, and its time to move on, forget about DX9.
Yes, push progress ahead, or stay where we are? Hmmm... I know what I want, do you?
Yes, their shaders are different than nVidias, and had advantages/disadvantages depending on game, and yes again, their presentation is dont on real cards, with their employees holding real silicon.
Yes, I too thi9nk they should just crawl under a rock with 1 hand sticking up holding a real DX11 card, waving it in the air, thatd help sales for sure.
Yes, the poor old 5850 whips the poorer and older 285. And yes, the 5870 is only some 30% faster than the older, poorer 285, and has more functionality as well.
Oh yes, nVidias 30% is ALOT more than ATIs 30%, as in, the 5870s 30% vs the 30% fermi vaporwares
Yes, theyre in trouble, and its all TSMCs fault, as they seem to not be able to make enough to keep the stores fed with cards.
Yes, ATI is playing dirty, as Im just SURE theyre paying outside devs money to crack AA and Physx usage on Batman AA, just to spite nVidia, not that good ol nVidia would EVER do such a thing when theyre on top.
And finally, this for sure looks like a trouncing, but I wonder, whos doing the trouncing?
October 21, 2009 7:54:01 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
OK, lets start from the top.
Why is ATI trying soo hard? Hmmm.. maybe they DO have the only DX11 cards out, and its a great advantage, and their price/perf is currently unachievable by the competition?
Getting as many cards out the door, with people complaining about availability means: theyre selling like hotcakes, no wonder theyre trying so hard, they have obviously something great to offer at decent pricing, and again, with no competition.
Fear, Uncertaintity and Doubt. Oh noes!!!
Yes, its obvious that ATI is fearful of fermi, thats why theyre selling soo many cards they cant keep up.
Yes, ATI is saying, lets all move along now, since weve had DX10.1 for quite awhile now, and its time to move on, forget about DX9.
Yes, push progress ahead, or stay where we are? Hmmm... I know what I want, do you?
Yes, their shaders are different than nVidias, and had advantages/disadvantages depending on game, and yes again, their presentation is dont on real cards, with their employees holding real silicon.
Yes, I too thi9nk they should just crawl under a rock with 1 hand sticking up holding a real DX11 card, waving it in the air, thatd help sales for sure.
Yes, the poor old 5850 whips the poorer and older 285. And yes, the 5870 is only some 30% faster than the older, poorer 285, and has more functionality as well.
Oh yes, nVidias 30% is ALOT more than ATIs 30%, as in, the 5870s 30% vs the 30% fermi vaporwares
Yes, theyre in trouble, and its all TSMCs fault, as they seem to not be able to make enough to keep the stores fed with cards.
Yes, ATI is playing dirty, as Im just SURE theyre paying outside devs money to crack AA and Physx usage on Batman AA, just to spite nVidia, not that good ol nVidia would EVER do such a thing when theyre on top.
And finally, this for sure looks like a trouncing, but I wonder, whos doing the trouncing?



Finally someone who understands my post! Its all about the what ifs and a discussion!!! Im pointing out possibilities here and asked for other peoples opinions...but you knobs got soo caught up in defending ATI...i ask you who is the fanboy?? And im sick of this fanboy *** i dont care about either company...if ATI had a card that crapped all over Nvidia's last gen i would be praising them. But to have a Top end (5850) card be on par (or just over) than the competitions last gen is not an achievement!

Greatgrape or whatever your name is....arrogant as always....love how you assume how every1 else is wrong... All that moderating power getting to your head? Maybe your the one who's naive, u cant communicate with people! Your attitude STINKS.
a c 194 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 21, 2009 8:12:51 PM

Raw power always comes at a price, the 5xxx series is a huge achievement, you can get 2 5850s which give you twice as much gaming potential for only 45% more than the cheapest GTX285 newegg has, use only 25% more power than a single GTX285, provides better performance than 2 while using 76% of the power, has the ability to support up to 6 monitors in the near future, has full support for the newest directx. How is getting all of that in your second tier card not an achievement?

nVidia is putting a lot of work into the GPGPU market for super computers and massive parrallel processing applications, which while you can sell massively expensive cards there to people with research grants, that added functionality will generate more heat, restrict the die area that can be used for pure GPU functionality, and increase the cost to offset R&D costs.

As it stands now there arent any reviewers who have even gotten their hands on one so we have no way to know how it will perform or if it will even beat the 5xxx series in super computing apps, the added SPs should allow for better parallel processing. Im pretty sure it will beat a GTX295, but i think it will also end up costing as much if not more. If the 5870X2 comes out before it then fermi wont stand a chance.
October 21, 2009 8:33:01 PM

Oh no jaydeejohn.. You fed Smoggy and gave him inappropriate hope that he is right.. Oh noes!

As for GGA, I fail to see how anything he has said could be disputed?

Besides the G80 ~doubling the performance of the 79xx series, a 40-50% rise over last gen's best card is quite normal.

Will Fermi be stronger than 58xx series? Likely. By how much? I would bet ~same as the difference between the 48xx and the GTX200 Series. But, ATI would have already had the door open for months, which allows them better options price-wise down the line. I could almost guarantee better price/performance for ATI for awhile at least.
October 21, 2009 8:47:17 PM

itheral said:
Oh no jaydeejohn.. You fed Smoggy and gave him inappropriate hope that he is right.. Oh noes!

As for GGA, I fail to see how anything he has said could be disputed?

Besides the G80 ~doubling the performance of the 79xx series, a 40-50% rise over last gen's best card is quite normal.

Will Fermi be stronger than 58xx series? Likely. By how much? I would bet ~same as the difference between the 48xx and the GTX200 Series. But, ATI would have already had the door open for months, which allows them better options price-wise down the line. I could almost guarantee better price/performance for ATI for awhile at least.



That im right about what?! Im tryin to make a discussion? Im not trying to say this is whats happening ...i was asking for peoples opinions! ignorant ****
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 8:54:39 PM

Im just saying it the way I see it.
Sarcasm doesnt play well on the net, so some may have gotten a few things wrong.
a b U Graphics card
October 21, 2009 8:57:20 PM

itheral said:
Oh no jaydeejohn.. You fed Smoggy and gave him inappropriate hope that he is right.. Oh noes!

As for GGA, I fail to see how anything he has said could be disputed?

Besides the G80 ~doubling the performance of the 79xx series, a 40-50% rise over last gen's best card is quite normal.

Will Fermi be stronger than 58xx series? Likely. By how much? I would bet ~same as the difference between the 48xx and the GTX200 Series. But, ATI would have already had the door open for months, which allows them better options price-wise down the line. I could almost guarantee better price/performance for ATI for awhile at least.


Since when is it debatable that the GTX200 series is far and above better than the 48xx series? Each company has a competitive card with no clear winner in basically every segment besides the GTX 285 (but it's at a ridiculous price point and the HD 4890 beats it sometimes). Even the 4870X2 competes with the GTX 295 decently.
!