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Is Nvidia Coming Back?

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October 31, 2009 11:20:41 PM

Well as the tittle said, im just wondering if Nvidia is planing to counter ATI against their Dx11 cards, and how?

i read around the net, about the gt300 series, that will have ddr5 and dx11 support.
but i also hear about a 5870x2 and a 5890 might be lying around, and also that 4890 might have dx11 support through drivers update.

dont know if any of this is true, basically i would like to hear what everyone have to say about these 2 companies and what are they gonna bring to the table for this Christmas as i need to get some gifts :D 

even if its only an opinion it will be pretty much welcome and discussed.

More about : nvidia coming back

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October 31, 2009 11:45:36 PM

nVid might do a GPU Fermi chip, and a CGPU Fermi chip. Either way, both will cost a premium.
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October 31, 2009 11:45:49 PM

Okay, GT300 is real however Nvidia is a bit secretive about it. Some specs were rumored to be going around, however nothing proven yet. Yet it will have DX 11 support, and yes it will use GDDR5 memory. Nvidia isn't dying it's just cutting/reopening projects, reasons remain unknown.

5870x2 (Hemlock) is also real, not sure however when it will be released. Spec's are down and all however.
HD 5890, it will come out but at the moment most information are rumors.

HD 4890/some other recent Radeon HD cards are DX 10.1 compatible which share some features from DX 11, however they will NOT be compatible with Dx 11. Also the rumor going around of the HD 4890 being remade to DX 11 is FALSE. This is due to people predicting that the HD 4890x2 would come out near the time of DX 11, however no information has been given. ATI has not officially stopped the development. It could have been abandoned in place of the superior HD 5800s.

Nvidia won't be here for christmas, they're jewish this year. JK JK! Happy Hanukkah!
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November 1, 2009 1:11:03 AM

Nvidia really needs to start sweating that DX11 issue, what could they possibly be thinking, man they're falling so far behind, Panic sets in !!!

But wait a minute ? How many games do you have that require DX11, or for that matter DX10.1?

None of my games do.

So it really boils down to the need, "The Need For Speeeeeeed"


Quote:
Is Nvidia Coming Back?



Just because ATI finally got some serious competition on the market, doesn't mean Nvidia will roll over for them, it ain't over.

Both of the companies past history is really interesting, and if their track records have shown anything, there's more fun coming.

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November 1, 2009 1:12:59 AM

@JackNaylorPE

There is no point releasing the 5870x2 now. Firstly, it is too damn expensive for people to afford, especially those on a budget. Secondly, there just aren't many games that require that much power. Thirdly, 5870 is already the best single GPU card out there, able to hold its own against the GTX295. Until nVidia comes up with something, I doubt Hemlock will be released anytime soon.
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November 1, 2009 1:13:29 AM

shadow187 said:
nVid might do a GPU Fermi chip, and a CGPU Fermi chip. Either way, both will cost a premium.



you right

- even if Nvidia release by Xmass pricess wont be user friendly i believe, Nvidia Top Gpus never been cheap, oppose to ATI who's got the best and they are really good prices for the performance they offer.

- so whats the bottom line here guys? is it better to wait till Nvidia release their products to buy a video card or ATI crown's will remain?
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November 1, 2009 1:19:54 AM

AsAnAtheist said:
Okay, GT300 is real however Nvidia is a bit secretive about it. Some specs were rumored to be going around, however nothing proven yet. Yet it will have DX 11 support, and yes it will use GDDR5 memory. Nvidia isn't dying it's just cutting/reopening projects, reasons remain unknown.

5870x2 (Hemlock) is also real, not sure however when it will be released. Spec's are down and all however.
HD 5890, it will come out but at the moment most information are rumors.

HD 4890/some other recent Radeon HD cards are DX 10.1 compatible which share some features from DX 11, however they will NOT be compatible with Dx 11. Also the rumor going around of the HD 4890 being remade to DX 11 is FALSE. This is due to people predicting that the HD 4890x2 would come out near the time of DX 11, however no information has been given. ATI has not officially stopped the development. It could have been abandoned in place of the superior HD 5800s.

Nvidia won't be here for christmas, they're jewish this year. JK JK! Happy Hanukkah!


thanks for making that clear.

I believe it is as you say, Nvidia its coming with powerful gpus but ati has a couple of tricks under their sleve.

damn, i was actually exited to hear that 4890 might it have DX11 support by drivers as i own one, but i knew it was to much of a rumor to be true, i know that there is more tweaking to do between 5770 and a 5850 and there might be something just as powerful as a 4890 with dx11 support at a interesting price point like $200, there is more people (gamers included) that don't want to shell out more than that for a new GPU, I wish more company offer step up support like EVGA did with some Nvidia series.
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November 1, 2009 1:40:28 AM

alikum said:
Thirdly, 5870 is already the best single GPU card out there, able to hold its own against the GTX295. Until nVidia comes up with something, I doubt Hemlock will be released anytime soon.


2nd place never matters. Does the silver medalist ever makes the Wheaties Box ? Does the backup quarterback ever get to nail the prom queen ?

The 295 adds 4% to system cost for a $2k system....and gives a 5-10% performance gain. What does everyone see when they load Crysis .... a big nVidia logo.....why nVidia, cause if you want to show off ya game, you want to show it in its best light and the 295 still will give the highest scores.

For the 295 to reign as the fastest single card solution come XMas would be a bad idea. To let that happen basically gives nVidia the crown for an entire year....that's way to long if you are trying to shake an image as the "value choice".

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November 1, 2009 1:54:58 AM

My guess is it will be "history repeating itself" but just with nVidia being quite a bit late outta the gate this year. This guess says nVidia will again claim the performance crown at the hi end and ATI will be the "value leader" in the mid range market. But again, that's a guess, which is why I won't be laying out any money until late winter. ATI should be jumping on nVidia's problems right now and getting the 5870x2 out the door and wrestling the performance crown away that they have held for 10 months.

The more interesting thing to wonder about is will DX11 do any better than DX10 which was a big dud and ..... in a post "Batman" world ..... what will be more important DX whatever or PhysX ..... and will Havok come to be a factor ? Not to be left out is MSI's "Big Bang" which has also been delayed from its October 29 launch and is now expected in Q1, 2010.
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November 1, 2009 2:03:07 AM

GTX 295 cannot be classified under the same category as a HD 5870 (which crossfired blows the GTX 295 out of the water.)

For one:
GTX 295=dual GPU. (2xGTX 280's with a little bottleneck for heating reasons).

HD 5870= Single GPU which pwns the GTX 280.
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November 1, 2009 2:25:48 AM

While I won't argue about the 295 still having a slight FPS edge, the only reason their logo is in the game is because they paid for it. If Intel wanted to I'm sure they could have 'Crysis plays best on intel integrated graphics' despite the fact the game would probably not load.

As to the question of 'is NVidia coming back?', the answer is quite simple, if they want to. They seem unsure of whether they want to be in the gaming section or not. Obviously, we all hope they will, and I for one would be a little surprised if they bet everything on Tesla/computing apps, but very little has officially been said about their gaming recently, so when or to what extent they will come back is anyone's guess. With the TSMC problems recently, it will probably be later rather that sooner and more expensive (and this goes for ATI's new cards as well).
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November 1, 2009 3:10:46 AM

well its seems that Nvidia its doing a good job, keeping the new stuff in secret, very little is known, and this causes people like me to wonder.

there isn't many games that are supporting DX11, while this is true, any Gamer/pc builder knows that future proofing you rig is a good investment therefor powerful cards like 4890/gtx280 become a stupid choice at their price point, and this push us to buy the newer tech. its no secret that pc technology advance so fast that its almost impossible to keep up with it, almost all our decisions are base looking into the future, which is why i ask, if building a new rig now, should one buy a small/older card now and wait for Nvdia? or wait on the whole build altogether?

yes Nvidia try to sell games by stamping their logo and paying to tweak games performance to incline to Nvidia's side and some games operate better under their architecture, although this doesn't extend further away from hardware capabilities for instance resulting in a increase of only 2-5 more fps, however this open up a whole new market of people who think they need a Nvidia card to play their games.

going back to physics, do you guys think its gonna play a roll on any future games giving Nvidia a slightly advantage over ATI.
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November 1, 2009 3:30:44 AM

Well, I certainly hope that Physics (not PhysX) begins to play a larger role, as what little we have seen so far looks pretty awesome. However, we won't see it actually matter (beyond visuals, whilch do not effect gameplay. That is my definition of matters) until it is based off of a program that both ATI/NVidia cards can use. Otherwise, Ihighly doubt many (if any) game makers would take the risk of making their game for only one card or the other. And because consoles are behind on this front as well, I feel that Physics growth will be a bit stunted in the near future (unfortunately).
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November 1, 2009 8:14:31 AM

JackNaylorPE said:
2nd place never matters.


It's not second place in his statement. The RV870 is the most powerful chip out there. PERIOD.

Quote:
What does everyone see when they load Crysis .... a big nVidia logo.....why nVidia,


Because they paid money. Are you that naive?

Quote:
For the 295 to reign as the fastest single card solution come XMas would be a bad idea.


I would be worse to take a chip that's already selling out, where demand outstrips supply and then slap two of them together in order to sell it for less than twice the margin, and unless you think people would be willing to pay enough ($700+?) to generate twice the margin for whatever the increase in the price of the board is, there's no point other than e-wang. The Halo effect from an X2 card isn't needed right now, they need it more in the new year when demand might slow to below supply.

Quote:
To let that happen basically gives nVidia the crown for an entire year....


But only on paper, since it's only been a year since the paper launch, not the actual product.

Quote:
that's way to long if you are trying to shake an image as the "value choice".


Who's trying to shake that image? That's what makes them money and what most people look for. The e-wang market doesn't pay the bills, it's the mid-range that makes the money and that's where the 57xx and 56xx series matter far FAR more than Hemlock.

Quote:
in a post "Batman" world .....


People keep wondering whatever happened to the post Mirror's Edge world....
Where they wondered whatever happened to the post GRAW world.... :pt1cable: 

Batman is not a game changer, Crysis was, but that's pretty much it recently for games that had a major impact of the level of Half Life or Doom. The UE3 engine has had an impact, but it wasn't Batman that started that, with the influence of UE being the sum of it's parts, not any one title, all of which have had only mild success this generation compared to games like Crysis and Call of Duty, and is even currently outsold by GTAIV.

Batman is just another blip on the Radar full of Blips, only fans of Batman or PhysX consider it as anything more than that. :heink: 
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November 1, 2009 8:26:09 AM

As for the OP, of course nV is coming back, but they are looking to comeback in a different way, moving towards a less game-centric future.

Fermi (F100) information is out there, look it up, it's what the G300 solution will be based on.

As for the HD4890 having DX11, no. Not as you would usually think of it, in hardware.... however.... it may essentially support DX11 features in emulation, which may be what nVidia does for some aspects of DX11 with the G300. Which may be the rumours you're hearing, and would be similar to alot of the feature support in intel's integrated GMA solutions, and we all know how well those perform in games compared to their 'done in hardware' counterparts. So while the HD4890 might be able to do some DX11 effects, they will likely be noticeably slower at doing so, and likely to lose handily to the new mid-range.
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November 1, 2009 9:27:41 AM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:

As for the HD4890 having DX11, no. Not as you would usually think of it, in hardware.... however.... it may essentially support DX11 features in emulation, which may be what nVidia does for some aspects of DX11 with the G300. Which may be the rumours you're hearing, and would be similar to alot of the feature support in intel's integrated GMA solutions, and we all know how well those perform in games compared to their 'done in hardware' counterparts. So while the HD4890 might be able to do some DX11 effects, they will likely be noticeably slower at doing so, and likely to lose handily to the new mid-range.

When you think about it, it makes little sense for AMD to emulate DX11 in software for previous gen. Those parts are EOL soon anyway, while they can focus on DX11 HW for all markets. DX11 on 4000 series would very slightly improve DX11 adoption rate, but at the same time slow down upgrade sales and increase support cost, by a LOT, therefore its safe to assume it wont happen.
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November 1, 2009 10:07:45 AM

I'm not saying AMD will support or promote it, most companies work on the concept of planned obsolescence, with people buying new lamps for old; but that may be the source of the rumour, and it may be something that other people are working on.

The only way it makes sense for AMD is if ATi want to expand the install base for a feature or game that would help them overall in some other way leading to more sales or influence (which hopes to lead to more sales).

edit: let me expand on that last bit a little to illustrate my thinking, if AMD knows many HD4K owners have little intention of upgrading now, but that they will/may upgrade next year+ when AMD has another ATi chip launch; then providing this to existing HD4890 and 4770 users only (make up a PR reason or practical reason [like not enough power to emulate]) means that you earn bonus points with them for 'caring' about their customer, and you can buy alot of good will for what may be little investment. I don't believe in corporate altruism (and most altruism in general), but I do see a few potential benefits to such a move, which would not show immediate benefit, and might even be somewhat harmful to self in comparison, but it might be worth it in the end.

Anywhoo, just talking about possible sources for the rumours, not confirming their validity. :??: 

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November 1, 2009 10:43:12 AM

I hope they'll just carry on like they do and did before ( ATi & AMD ).

Having your opponent slowed down, like they do have now, it would be excellent to do something with drivers or do some research into more power efficient video cards, producing something faster and more powerhungry is not needed right now +overkilling isn't good for us costumers :D  .
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November 1, 2009 1:25:56 PM

So i Guess I wont be buying until January or a 5870 its a solid buy?
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November 1, 2009 1:39:16 PM

Well, define 'solid buy'. It is an excellent card, and if you had a really old or no card at all I'd highly suggest it. Or, If you currently are having severe trouble running current games, I'd highly suggest it. Otherwise, I'd say what's the rush. A 4890 is a fast card, and in the majority of cases you would probably see little increase, especially when compared to the price tag of a 5870. Not to mention, it is somewhat difficult (though certainly not impossible) to get one now due to short supplies. So, unless one of the conditions above (not fast enough with current card) applies, I'd probably wait and see what cool new stuff comes out (from both companies) as the major DX11 titles come out early next year.
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November 1, 2009 1:51:45 PM

JackNaylorPE said:
Does the backup quarterback ever get to nail the prom queen ?


I'm not sure about your area, but I "nailed" the "prom queen" ( ugh! at both those terms ) and I wasn't even on a sports team.
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November 1, 2009 4:18:22 PM

EXT64 said:
Well, define 'solid buy'. It is an excellent card, and if you had a really old or no card at all I'd highly suggest it. Or, If you currently are having severe trouble running current games, I'd highly suggest it. Otherwise, I'd say what's the rush. A 4890 is a fast card, and in the majority of cases you would probably see little increase, especially when compared to the price tag of a 5870. Not to mention, it is somewhat difficult (though certainly not impossible) to get one now due to short supplies. So, unless one of the conditions above (not fast enough with current card) applies, I'd probably wait and see what cool new stuff comes out (from both companies) as the major DX11 titles come out early next year.

If any must have DX11 games appear anytime soonish, then going with a non DX11 card might be a mistake.
Thats the thing here, not availability.
If the OP is asking for new nVidia cards, the 295 certainly doesnt fit that bill, as its not even DX10.1 compliant its so old.
As for nVidias direction, we have to wait this one out, as its obvious theyll have something eventually, but the slowdowns on availability on ATI effects nVidia even moreso, because of the size of the chip theyll eventually release.
At this point, buying a higher end DX10 card, unless its a great deal, to me isnt an option, and I dont see any great deals out there
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November 1, 2009 5:11:41 PM

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest buying an old DX10 card now, I meant don't buy one at all (as the OP has a 4890, pretty much the best of last gen) if a new card isn't urgent or buy a 5870 if it is urgent. While DX11 is worthless right this instant, I agree that it looks far to promising to blow off, even in its first generation.
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November 1, 2009 5:17:10 PM

My mistake, misunderstood you.
I agree, there may be a few DX11 titles to look forwards to
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November 1, 2009 5:35:23 PM

We need Nvidia to come out soon, the sooner competition for the HD 5800s come out the sooner we get cheaper prices. It's that simple.

Whether Nvidia or ATI has the best card is irrelevant in the "e-wang" market since their market shares are near non existent compared to most gamers. The real winner this year will be the one who gives the value, which if history servers us right will be ATI..

Annotation: It seems Nvidia is moving away from consumer graphics cards. The specs on the fermi are far too diverse compared to a consumer GPU. What re they doing to the fermi with a cpu architecture mixed with a GPU? Oh well, since we really haven't had a cGPU before on PCs, so we'll see how it goes. It better not come with a $800 or $1000 price tag, as I am predicting however.
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November 1, 2009 5:41:02 PM

Well, W7 does include a higher usage of gpgpu usage, and since this is the future of some apps, and OS' as well, it makes sense, it all comes down to costs/trade offs.
IMHO, early usage wont deliver alot for DT, but some will find it extremely usefull, while others will have to bight the bullet for the higher costs having this ability
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November 1, 2009 5:51:33 PM

AsAnAtheist said:
We need Nvidia to come out soon, the sooner competition for the HD 5800s come out the sooner we get cheaper prices. It's that simple.


Not quite that simple, nV need to come out with a card that can compete somewhat on price, even if it's $600 it need to deliver something relative to similar value, even if it's a 1.25:1 difference, as long as it stays close then there will be price pressure, but if it's simply nV's new card but twice the price without better performance, then cheaper prices wouldn't result, because it would only be attractive to those who wouldn't buy ATi either way. What you need for prices to drop is for ATi's value equation to be matched or threatened, then they need to lower prices to compete.

So it's not enough for nV simply to make it to market, they need to bring a good enough product to make a difference.
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November 1, 2009 6:30:25 PM

AsAnAtheist said:
GTX 295 cannot be classified under the same category as a HD 5870 (which crossfired blows the GTX 295 out of the water.)


Categories don't matter when you're looking for mindshare.....winning does. Might as well say the "Toronto Blue Jays can't be classified under the same category as the Yankees cause the Yankees payroll is twice the Blue Jays". I don't see anyone taking away all those World Series Championship rings ? I don't see anyone giving the Toronto players huge endorsement contracts that they give to Jeter and Rodriguez. The Yankees are America's team because they keep winning.

There are no asterisks next to Barry Bonds and Hank Aaron's name even though Babe played a shorter season. There are no asterisked for the NFL rushing leaders though they played more games in a season than their counterparts way back when.

Before September 23rd all the talk was how the 5870 was gonna wipe the 295....when it didn't the argument switched to a "value one" though it still can't win that one when system cost is considered. If ATI wants to shake the "value leader" moniker it should just take the top spot. Yes we all know that the 295 is a dual GPU card; is ATI now incapable of making a dual GPU card ? IMO, ATI should stop making excuses and put out the 5870x2 and "take the title". Until they do, nVidia will still hold the title (asterisks don't count) for "fastest GFX card". ATI is in the position for a knockout punch and instead of moving in and delivering it, they're dancing around the ring.

I don't see the logic to the "waiting for nVidia" thing as, what's the point ?

a) If nVidia beats the 5870 w/ their single GPU card and ATI responds with the x2, won't nVidia will just respond with their own x2. How do they lose anything ?

b) If nVidia can't beat it, then ATI will hold the crown that much longer.

I like competition because it drives down prices. While ATI and nVidia have competed and driven prices down in the mid tier, for too long nVidia has been able to garner a premium on the top end cards cause they keep topping ATI. Here 6 weeks after the 5870's introduction, most GTX 295's are still at the $499 level. The "won't sell them cheaper cause they cost more than that to make" don't hold water as the channel is already filled with them. If the 295 is "dead", wouldn't those stuck holding a lot of 295's stock want to get rid of them while they still can ? Better 70 cents on the dollar than 30.

The price of the OC'd 295's still hover at around $559. With an announced $599 price for the 5870x2 way back in June, just how many hard core gamers is $40 gonna scare away ?
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November 1, 2009 6:44:54 PM

JackNaylorPE said:


a) If nVidia beats the 5870 w/ their single GPU card and ATI responds with the x2, won't nVidia will just respond with their own x2. How do they lose anything ?


nVid will have to run a massive shrink before hand! x3
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November 1, 2009 6:50:40 PM

JackNaylorPE said:
Categories don't matter when you're looking for mindshare.....winning does. Might as well say the "Toronto Blue Jays can't be classified under the same category as the Yankees cause the Yankees payroll is twice the Blue Jays". I don't see anyone taking away all those World Series Championship rings ? I don't see anyone giving the Toronto players huge endorsement contracts that they give to Jeter and Rodriguez. The Yankees are America's team because they keep winning.

There are no asterisks next to Barry Bonds and Hank Aaron's name even though Babe played a shorter season. There are no asterisked for the NFL rushing leaders though they played more games in a season than their counterparts way back when.

Before September 23rd all the talk was how the 5870 was gonna wipe the 295....when it didn't the argument switched to a "value one" though it still can't win that one when system cost is considered. If ATI wants to shake the "value leader" moniker it should just take the top spot. Yes we all know that the 295 is a dual GPU card; is ATI now incapable of making a dual GPU card ? IMO, ATI should stop making excuses and put out the 5870x2 and "take the title". Until they do, nVidia will still hold the title (asterisks don't count) for "fastest GFX card". ATI is in the position for a knockout punch and instead of moving in and delivering it, they're dancing around the ring.

I don't see the logic to the "waiting for nVidia" thing as, what's the point ?

a) If nVidia beats the 5870 w/ their single GPU card and ATI responds with the x2, won't nVidia will just respond with their own x2. How do they lose anything ?

b) If nVidia can't beat it, then ATI will hold the crown that much longer.

I like competition because it drives down prices. While ATI and nVidia have competed and driven prices down in the mid tier, for too long nVidia has been able to garner a premium on the top end cards cause they keep topping ATI. Here 6 weeks after the 5870's introduction, most GTX 295's are still at the $499 level. The "won't sell them cheaper cause they cost more than that to make" don't hold water as the channel is already filled with them. If the 295 is "dead", wouldn't those stuck holding a lot of 295's stock want to get rid of them while they still can ? Better 70 cents on the dollar than 30.

The price of the OC'd 295's still hover at around $559. With an announced $599 price for the 5870x2 way back in June, just how many hard core gamers is $40 gonna scare away ?


I always enjoy how diluted all your posts are, though you manage to sprinkle some logical statements in to appear as if you're not trying to push your point too hard. Good show, I guess. It's easy to tell when someone is trying to justify something to themself rather than the person they're talking at.
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November 1, 2009 6:55:45 PM

JackNaylorPE said:

The more interesting thing to wonder about is will DX11 do any better than DX10 which was a big dud and ..... in a post "Batman" world ..... what will be more important DX whatever or PhysX ..... and will Havok come to be a factor ? Not to be left out is MSI's "Big Bang" which has also been delayed from its October 29 launch and is now expected in Q1, 2010.


Just go away Jack you have already said something so irrevocably and unforgivably retarded that no one can take you seriously.

For the record, both PhysX and Havoc are useless gimmicks, don't even compare them to DX11, it is the future and the only thing that will make a difference out of what you listed.
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November 1, 2009 7:12:21 PM

shadow187 said:
nVid will have to run a massive shrink before hand! x3

And we all thought the Pentium D's made great space heaters!!
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November 1, 2009 7:25:16 PM

The_Blood_Raven said:
Just go away Jack you have already said something so irrevocably and unforgivably retarded that no one can take you seriously.

For the record, both PhysX and Havoc are useless gimmicks, don't even compare them to DX11, it is the future and the only thing that will make a difference out of what you listed.


I just have to add something because it's so ridiculous...

JackNaylorPE said:
The more interesting thing to wonder about is will DX11 do any better than DX10 which was a big dud and ..... in a post "Batman" world ..... what will be more important DX whatever or PhysX ..... and will Havok come to be a factor ?


Can someone get this guy is a list of the games that use DirectX and a list of games that use PhysX? Thousands of games vs. 13 games. No, lets do him a favor: Get him a list of games that run DirectX 10 -- 53 vs 13. Damn, is that still larger than the list of games that use PhysX? Oh, then lets compare it to DirectX 11 -- 10 (not inlcuding three game engines) vs. 13 games.

...

It's not as big? It must be a failure since it didn't just come out. Who seriously thinks like this? You've got to be dense. I love how in every post he's debating the relevance of DirectX in indirect relation to PhysX like PhysX is some kind of industry standard with thousands among thousands of titles using it -- but in the real world we know that the important feature is DirectX.

As a side note, don't try going on to that website and clicking the view all platforms button and giving me that number. The DirectX numbers I'm giving you are PC titles only, and on a non-PC system the consumer is not making a GPU purchase decision so it's irrelevant to the thread. If you want to go that route we can add even more titles to DirectX since its used on the Xbox 360 and original Xbox.
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November 1, 2009 8:34:12 PM

Sidestepping your attempt to distract with selective sports theories again.

JackNaylorPE said:

Before September 23rd all the talk was how the 5870 was gonna wipe the 295....


Wanna post that?
Pretty much all the talk was consistent with what JDJ posted about 60% better than the previous HD4890 which is what it turned out to be. So please post that 'all the talk' you speak of, I doubt you get anyone credible other that the same loonies who say the GT300 will be way way way way way faster than any HD5870X2 etc.

Quote:
when it didn't the argument switched to a "value one" though it still can't win that one when system cost is considered.


It never switched, it was pretty much seen as the value leader again since the GTX2xx stopped production but it's the HD5K in demand. Even when system cost is considered, since the system requirements are much lower, and even the energy costs are much lower than the GTX295. So what is your point other than you can get a few more frames per second and pay extra for that too? It still doesn't give any indication nVidia has any chance of coming back based on the GTX295, nor does it motivate anyone to build something to defeat it when few people care about it.

Until HD5870 demand dies down, whether that's due to saturation or nV finally getting their product to maker doesn't matter; right now there's no need to bother with an X2 card unless they can make more profit selling one, not for some imaginary crown for morons. :pfff: 
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November 1, 2009 8:37:40 PM

JackNaylorPE said:
2nd place never matters. Does the silver medalist ever makes the Wheaties Box ? Does the backup quarterback ever get to nail the prom queen ?

The 295 adds 4% to system cost for a $2k system....and gives a 5-10% performance gain. What does everyone see when they load Crysis .... a big nVidia logo.....why nVidia, cause if you want to show off ya game, you want to show it in its best light and the 295 still will give the highest scores.

For the 295 to reign as the fastest single card solution come XMas would be a bad idea. To let that happen basically gives nVidia the crown for an entire year....that's way to long if you are trying to shake an image as the "value choice".


Second place doesn't matter? Don't be foolish (although I know you can't help it) the market for top end cards is small especially since the 5870 will run anything out there. How many people will buy a gt300 because it is 5 percent or 10 percent faster? only a tiny slice of the market. Mostly people with more money than brains.
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November 1, 2009 8:43:17 PM

2012473,30,34832 said:
Categories don't matter when you're looking for mindshare.....winning does. Might as well say the "Toronto Blue Jays can't be classified under the same category as the Yankees cause the Yankees payroll is twice the Blue Jays". I don't see anyone taking away all those World Series Championship rings ? I don't see anyone giving the Toronto players huge endorsement contracts that they give to Jeter and Rodriguez. The Yankees are America's team because they keep winning.

Nvidia already has your "mind" not too much bragging rights there
Really Jack, does the nurse know you're on the computer so much?
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November 1, 2009 8:46:04 PM

Dale Earnhardt hasn't won a race in a long time, yet he's the highest paid driver ever.
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November 1, 2009 8:52:13 PM

JackNaylorPE said:
Categories don't matter when you're looking for mindshare.....winning does. Might as well say the "Toronto Blue Jays can't be classified under the same category as the Yankees cause the Yankees payroll is twice the Blue Jays". I don't see anyone taking away all those World Series Championship rings ? I don't see anyone giving the Toronto players huge endorsement contracts that they give to Jeter and Rodriguez. The Yankees are America's team because they keep winning.

There are no asterisks next to Barry Bonds and Hank Aaron's name even though Babe played a shorter season. There are no asterisked for the NFL rushing leaders though they played more games in a season than their counterparts way back when.

Before September 23rd all the talk was how the 5870 was gonna wipe the 295....when it didn't the argument switched to a "value one" though it still can't win that one when system cost is considered. If ATI wants to shake the "value leader" moniker it should just take the top spot. Yes we all know that the 295 is a dual GPU card; is ATI now incapable of making a dual GPU card ? IMO, ATI should stop making excuses and put out the 5870x2 and "take the title". Until they do, nVidia will still hold the title (asterisks don't count) for "fastest GFX card". ATI is in the position for a knockout punch and instead of moving in and delivering it, they're dancing around the ring.

I don't see the logic to the "waiting for nVidia" thing as, what's the point ?

a) If nVidia beats the 5870 w/ their single GPU card and ATI responds with the x2, won't nVidia will just respond with their own x2. How do they lose anything ?

b) If nVidia can't beat it, then ATI will hold the crown that much longer.

I like competition because it drives down prices. While ATI and nVidia have competed and driven prices down in the mid tier, for too long nVidia has been able to garner a premium on the top end cards cause they keep topping ATI. Here 6 weeks after the 5870's introduction, most GTX 295's are still at the $499 level. The "won't sell them cheaper cause they cost more than that to make" don't hold water as the channel is already filled with them. If the 295 is "dead", wouldn't those stuck holding a lot of 295's stock want to get rid of them while they still can ? Better 70 cents on the dollar than 30.

The price of the OC'd 295's still hover at around $559. With an announced $599 price for the 5870x2 way back in June, just how many hard core gamers is $40 gonna scare away ?


Yes winning matters.
Winning is earning money.
Right now ATI is winning.
Nvidia is leaving hardware gfx pc-gaming, because they are not earning money.
They are loosing - and no...batman is not going to rescue them
Not because they are bad at marketing (wood screws included)
But because ATI got far more efficient and also faster cards and are heading for
32nm SOI with AMD competence
Fusion
Nvidia is loosing on gaming, but they know when to leave. They would be idiots to stay, and use all their money in the bank (and they got a shitload)
As you came so long to read this, you probably use your computer for gaming, examine the reviews, so your next card will be ATI. Get used to it.
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November 1, 2009 10:31:01 PM

well so its seems to me that there is no point waiting for Nvidia, everything seems to point out that they are not releasing anytime soon, and when they release they will put a premium tag on those cards. whereas ATI has the performance per value Already, i wont be buying a card this Xmas, probably i'll just buy LGA 1156, an i5,mobo, memory, and keep a 4890 till February. lol Nvidia looked like they were the top of the line, what ever happen, whats holding their comeback, did Intel cancellation of their north bridge hit them so hard?
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November 2, 2009 2:05:04 AM

JackNaylorPE said:
Categories don't matter when you're looking for mindshare.....winning does. Might as well say the "Toronto Blue Jays can't be classified under the same category as the Yankees cause the Yankees payroll is twice the Blue Jays". I don't see anyone taking away all those World Series Championship rings ? I don't see anyone giving the Toronto players huge endorsement contracts that they give to Jeter and Rodriguez. The Yankees are America's team because they keep winning.

There are no asterisks next to Barry Bonds and Hank Aaron's name even though Babe played a shorter season. There are no asterisked for the NFL rushing leaders though they played more games in a season than their counterparts way back when.

Before September 23rd all the talk was how the 5870 was gonna wipe the 295....when it didn't the argument switched to a "value one" though it still can't win that one when system cost is considered. If ATI wants to shake the "value leader" moniker it should just take the top spot. Yes we all know that the 295 is a dual GPU card; is ATI now incapable of making a dual GPU card ? IMO, ATI should stop making excuses and put out the 5870x2 and "take the title". Until they do, nVidia will still hold the title (asterisks don't count) for "fastest GFX card". ATI is in the position for a knockout punch and instead of moving in and delivering it, they're dancing around the ring.

I don't see the logic to the "waiting for nVidia" thing as, what's the point ?

a) If nVidia beats the 5870 w/ their single GPU card and ATI responds with the x2, won't nVidia will just respond with their own x2. How do they lose anything ?

b) If nVidia can't beat it, then ATI will hold the crown that much longer.

I like competition because it drives down prices. While ATI and nVidia have competed and driven prices down in the mid tier, for too long nVidia has been able to garner a premium on the top end cards cause they keep topping ATI. Here 6 weeks after the 5870's introduction, most GTX 295's are still at the $499 level. The "won't sell them cheaper cause they cost more than that to make" don't hold water as the channel is already filled with them. If the 295 is "dead", wouldn't those stuck holding a lot of 295's stock want to get rid of them while they still can ? Better 70 cents on the dollar than 30.

The price of the OC'd 295's still hover at around $559. With an announced $599 price for the 5870x2 way back in June, just how many hard core gamers is $40 gonna scare away ?


Not going to argue with you, obviously you have no fair mind in comparing two products.
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November 2, 2009 4:26:48 AM

AsAnAtheist said:
Not going to argue with you, obviously you have no fair mind in comparing two products.


You're wrong about jack not having a fair mind, he has no mind at all judging by his posts, but more likely he is just a troll, nobody can be that stupid. :pt1cable: 
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November 2, 2009 5:49:20 AM

Reason why not to buy a GTX 295, or at least wait for Nvidia's new line of GPUs:
* Lacks DX 11 support, not to mention DX 10.1...
* It is not a single GPU card, it's a x2 gpu on a single card card... and actually 2x HD 5850's already trump it.
* HD 5870 already beats Nvidia's fastest flaship single GPU, and any other single GPU card on consumer level.
* Worse performance to power ratio when compared to ATI cards.
* Supports 4 monitor gaming with dramatically decreased FPS, HD 5870 can handle six monitors (as shown on some gaming L4d on 6 30" monitors).


Reason why the GTX 295 are not going down in price:
* No point in lowering the cost, even at a reduced price they would not attract enough attention to warrant the looses. It would be like taking on added weight when your sinking in an attempt to stay afloat, no point in that unless your a masochist. These types of actions are called knee-jerk reactions, or in other words actions of desperation which end up in quicker failure anyways. But let's face it, Nvidia is not anywhere near "desperate".


Reasons why HD 5850/HD 5870 pwn:
* Low idle power consumption, low power use under full load.
* Beats any single GPU, and beats any multi GPU in a crossfire configuration. Don't even get started on quad sli or quad crossfire because the micro stuttering is hell of annoying, and no marginal performance gains are shown. I guess they're nice for benchmarks...
* HD 5850/HD 5870 DX 11 full support. Not going to get started here, I am bored myself of all the talk with DX 11. It's great, that's it.
* Eyefinity technology (2 DVI's, Display port, and HDMI), allows for up to 6 monitors each at 1080p resolution. This is ridiculous...
* Low price.
* Brought the prices on previous HD 4800 series down. I guess this is more of a personal annotation, but whatever if you read this far in you won't be bothered by a few more wasted seconds.
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November 2, 2009 6:51:05 AM

JackNaylorPE said:
2nd place never matters. Does the silver medalist ever makes the Wheaties Box ? Does the backup quarterback ever get to nail the prom queen ?

The 295 adds 4% to system cost for a $2k system....and gives a 5-10% performance gain. What does everyone see when they load Crysis .... a big nVidia logo.....why nVidia, cause if you want to show off ya game, you want to show it in its best light and the 295 still will give the highest scores.

For the 295 to reign as the fastest single card solution come XMas would be a bad idea. To let that happen basically gives nVidia the crown for an entire year....that's way to long if you are trying to shake an image as the "value choice".

lol, lets look at the numbers
I look at resolutions that I will be using in games, particularly 1920*1200 since thats what my monitor puts up.

Stalker
5870 30.2
295 30.2

crysis
5870 31.4
295 29.8

Farcry 2 (interesting to note anand's find here)
5870 57.7 anandtech 68.9
295 67.1 anandtech 64.5

L4Dead
5870 119.8
295 117.6

World in conflict
5870 52
295 68

Hawx
5870 60
295 45

RE5
5870 94.4
295 89.8

GTA IV
5870 62.3
295 63.5

where is the 5-10% performance gain? oh, must only be looking at world in conflict, but hawx just offset that win.

Who is in second place? Lets add in power consumption while pushing these cards.
5870 354W
295 480W

Sorry to burst your bubble, but with the features fully loaded on the 5870 vs the aging 295 EOL card, its hardly in first place for an extra $100. Not to mention these drivers aren't even tweaked yet.
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November 2, 2009 2:18:27 PM

noob2222 said:
lol, lets look at the numbers
I look at resolutions that I will be using in games, particularly 1920*1200 since thats what my monitor puts up.

Stalker
5870 30.2
295 30.2

crysis
5870 31.4
295 29.8

Farcry 2 (interesting to note anand's find here)
5870 57.7 anandtech 68.9
295 67.1 anandtech 64.5

L4Dead
5870 119.8
295 117.6

World in conflict
5870 52
295 68

Hawx
5870 60
295 45

RE5
5870 94.4
295 89.8

GTA IV
5870 62.3
295 63.5

where is the 5-10% performance gain? oh, must only be looking at world in conflict, but hawx just offset that win.

Who is in second place? Lets add in power consumption while pushing these cards.
5870 354W
295 480W

Sorry to burst your bubble, but with the features fully loaded on the 5870 vs the aging 295 EOL card, its hardly in first place for an extra $100. Not to mention these drivers aren't even tweaked yet.


I've tried to explain this to him, sadly it just wont break through his barrier of stupidity.
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November 2, 2009 3:05:16 PM

ATI has the upper hand at this moment, but they have much bigger problems than NV. I think AMD will have to file for bankruptcy protection in the next year or two. I think they'll continue to make and sell products during BK, but it's not certain. They may offer better products at better prices, but they aren't making as much money.

I think what's happening is Intel and NV are trying to vie for a shot at the next generation gaming platforms (PS,XBOX,Wii). AMD has an edge in that they can deliver a single CPU/GPU solution while Intel and NV currently can't. NV is trying to develop a CPU solution (Fermi) and Intel is trying to deliver a GPU (Larrabee).

The XBOX360 and PS3 both use the same cell processor primarily developed by IBM. Technically, they're not exactly the same, but close enough for me to call them the same. Both companies had issues with the graphics and had to go to a third party vendor (ATI for the 360, NV for the PS3) and this caused delays and cost overrruns. Sony had larger issues and that's why the 360 came out first. In the future, it's not expected that Sony and MS will want to risk this happening again and want a complete solution up front before rewarding contracts.

Intel and NV will take years to come up with something. They both have to create an inexpensive solution that uses little power and produces little heat. I think they have a big uphill battle.

I think if it weren't for the $5billion debt that AMD has, either Sony or MS would buy them up just to keep them away from the competitors.

I'm a PC gamer and I know the systems are more powerful but the market for the next PS3 etc... is way bigger than the discrete graphics card business and I think NV may be willing to give up some current market share to make sure they have a shot at the consoles.
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November 2, 2009 3:38:43 PM

KidHorn said:

The XBOX360 and PS3 both use the same cell processor primarily developed by IBM. Technically, they're not exactly the same, but close enough for me to call them the same.


The Xbox 360 does not have a cell processor, it has a tri-core processor, though both are from IBM. The only thing that is the same with these processors, besides the being IBM, is that they use the "RISC" method of trading compilers.
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November 2, 2009 3:53:22 PM

Why does everyone think that nVidia is abandoning gamers.....

A graphics card is essentially a glorified CPU with dedicated memory and some shader cores (which btw, a shader core on an ATI card is the same bloody thing as a CUDA core on an nVidia card, they both perform the same function. Just because they named it a CUDA core doesn't mean it is useless to game rendering like everyone seems to think it is). The faster it is, well, the faster it is, for both HPC and gaming. So don't believe all the rumours you hear, nVidia isn't abandoning gamers.

nVidia included ECC on their cards and Nexus and such. That doesn't mean the card will be crap for gaming... I'm fairly confident that the newer nVidia cards will beat the current ATI lineup when nVidia finally gets their arses in gear and releases them. The only real question is whether the performance increase warrants the premium you'll pay for it.

nVidia isn't just ditching gaming to go to HPCing, they are doing what lots of companies do, diversifying. When you start getting huge as a company and facing serious competition, you generally have 2 choices, one being expand vertically and become the master of your current product and all of the methods required to produce it, thereby saving development and resource costs to increase net income; or the second option being expand horizontally, aka diversifying your product line. This is obviously the option nVidia has decided on, and none of us know where it will take them yet, we will have to see. As it stands now their market share and income still eats AMD/ATI's alive. That may change though.

ATI has been beaten and bloodied by nVidia for years, and now with AMD's backing they have gotten a few quick and solid jabs in on nVidia that nVidia never expected. This isn't a knockout punch at all, nVidia is just reeling from the unexpected things that ATI has pulled out of their hat. So they are doing the smart thing, backing up and taking a breather, evaluating the situation while trying to cut their losses, and HOPEFULLY remedying their mistakes so AMD can't take advantage of the situation too much and bury them in a fury of fists. Because a market with only one company at the top isn't a market at all, it is a monopoly, and at that point, all of us lose (especially gamers....).

So as to the OPers question if nVidia would come back at all.... I wasn't even aware that they had left.
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November 2, 2009 4:00:27 PM

brockh said:
I love how in every post he's debating the relevance of DirectX in indirect relation to PhysX like PhysX is some kind of industry standard with thousands among thousands of titles using it -- but in the real world we know that the important feature is DirectX.


I'm am not "debating" anything. However, in "Debating 101" you learn that the moment your opponent resorts to name calling and broad personal characterizations, it's over, he's given up on a factual argument and shows frustration with the only weapon left, ineffectual as it may be. I am not a gamer. I play one of my kids games maybe once or twice a year. I build boxes as a hobby, and when I do, I build them to the user's requirements. Mostly I build CAD boxes and fortunately a good CAD card also makes a good gaming card, so I am fortunate that if I do play a game, as a CAD user, I have good card to play it with.

I'm simply a bystander here. When building a box, I listen to what the person wants rather than try and force my own opinions on them, something you seem to not mind doing. With three sons 13,18 and 19, I do listen to what they are interested in. I do listen to what their friends are interested in as when they are over the house, we have conversations on the subject. Maybe it's a regional thing but, but over the last few builds I have done for my son and their friends, I am certainly hearing a lot more questions about PhysX than I am DX11.

You have embarked on a fundamentalist ranting because the question I asked apparently is one you don't want to entertain lest it mess with your "religious fervor" for a particular manufacturer. I asked a question I am wondering about, you even quoted it....let me repeat:

I am simply wondering "what will be more important DX whatever or PhysX ?" Given the massive yawn that DX10 produced, it's hard to get excited about DX11 until we actually see it deliver something . Battleforge didn't accomplish that.

I did not suggest one side will win.....only that I am curious how it will turn out ? I don't know the answer. You obviously don't want anyone to debate the question or decide for themselves. My opinion on GFX card purchases is simply "Don't". I wouldn't buy a card till at least late winter when we see who the real winners are and all the "Rev A" hardware is in someone else's boxes and not mine. For my son however, PhysX was a big issue. The smoke, steam, cloth, leaves and other effects added to the game immersion but most of all he said he's tired of hitting a wall w/ a rocket launcher and it doesn't get more than a smudge. Just because he didn't agree with me I found no cause to belittle his opinions. When asked for advice, I simply say "If ya can't wait till late winter, and ya dig PhysX, get nVidia .... if PhysX doesn't matter to you, get ATI".

So, why do you feel so threatened by the question being asked ? Why do you find personal choice objectionable ? The fact that we have a major vendor EVGA releasing a dual GPU card with one of the GPU's specifically dedicated to PhysX has me asking this question. Apparently EVGA didn't "get the memo" and doesn't know "what you all know". You can choose to ignore it but that doesn't make it go away....the card is still on the market. Maybe it will flop, maybe it won't. Personally, I don't think it was a wise ploy as if there's no PhysX, the 2nd GPU is useless. But the marketing people at EVGA get paid a lot of money to make these decisions and if it's a flop, they are risking their jobs on it so they must have faith in it. Here's the big question .... if you are correct and PhysX is worthless, why is EVGA taking this step ? If you are so sure of the outcome, I'd suggest submitting a resume to EVGA as apparently you are far better informed than the hi level executives and industry insiders they have working there.

I have looked the the Battleforge DX10 / DX11 comparisons and find it hard to notice any significant differences. I have looked at Batman and do see some very significant differences which significantly improve the games realism. I see a 60 page thread filled with ATI owners wanting to add PhysX to their systems. Apparently not all ATI fans are as dismissive of the technology as you are.

http://www.ngohq.com/graphic-cards/16223-nvidia-disable...

OTOH, I have also seen some other titles with PhysX (i.e. Darkest of Days) and thought they were lame. The potential of each technology will depend upon what game developers are willing to invest in each technology. Saying "Supports DX11" or "supports PhysX" doesn't mean beans if the developers don't put the time, money and effort into taking advantage of the technology and really doing something with it. AMD is all up on releasing press releases saying PhysX will die and Havok will rule the world. So apparently, you're willing to dismiss AMD / ATI as well.

If you want to take part in the question and postulate how it will turn out, then a proper response would be to skip the characterizations of the person posing the question and focus on the advantages that DX11 will bring to the gamer's experience. Skip the techno babble about tesselation and shaders and tell us something related to the actual experience. What will we see on screen that will make the player say "Wow, that's cool" or "Wow, watch this scene played out under DX10 and then as DX11 and look at the difference."

I don't know how it will turn out. I think EVGA blundered with this new dual GPU card. If it was me I'd have put out a deal such as "buy 2 SLI cards or buy 2 XFire cards and get dedicated 250GT card for dedicated PhysX free" kinda thing. At least that way, the purchaser doesn't feel that they have spent $$ on a GPU that they won't use.

The simple fact however that EVGA did put out this card and that there is a 60 page thread of ATI owners clamoring for PhysX, to my mind, blows a huge whole in the argument that PhysX has no possible bearing on the future of gaming. Why is MSI putting all the R&D and marketing dollars into "BigBang" and it's mix vid cards technology ? Every new marketing strategy is a gamble but if you're view, as you allege, is a universal one, we wouldn't be seeing any of this now would we ?

I'd also question nVidia's strategy of attempting to dissuade ATI owners from using PhysX via the drivers sensing ATI hardware as I don't see how this helps them. From where I am sitting, the logic behind both vendors current strategies escapes me.
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November 2, 2009 4:11:19 PM

RealityRush said:
Why does everyone think that nVidia is abandoning gamers.....

A graphics card is essentially a glorified CPU with dedicated memory and some shader cores (which btw, a shader core on an ATI card is the same bloody thing as a CUDA core on an nVidia card, they both perform the same function. Just because they named it a CUDA core doesn't mean it is useless to game rendering like everyone seems to think it is). The faster it is, well, the faster it is, for both HPC and gaming. So don't believe all the rumours you hear, nVidia isn't abandoning gamers.

nVidia included ECC on their cards and Nexus and such. That doesn't mean the card will be crap for gaming... I'm fairly confident that the newer nVidia cards will beat the current ATI lineup when nVidia finally gets their arses in gear and releases them. The only real question is whether the performance increase warrants the premium you'll pay for it.

nVidia isn't just ditching gaming to go to HPCing, they are doing what lots of companies do, diversifying. When you start getting huge as a company and facing serious competition, you generally have 2 choices, one being expand vertically and become the master of your current product and all of the methods required to produce it, thereby saving development and resource costs to increase net income; or the second option being expand horizontally, aka diversifying your product line. This is obviously the option nVidia has decided on, and none of us know where it will take them yet, we will have to see. As it stands now their market share and income still eats AMD/ATI's alive. That may change though.

ATI has been beaten and bloodied by nVidia for years, and now with AMD's backing they have gotten a few quick and solid jabs in on nVidia that nVidia never expected. This isn't a knockout punch at all, nVidia is just reeling from the unexpected things that ATI has pulled out of their hat. So they are doing the smart thing, backing up and taking a breather, evaluating the situation while trying to cut their losses, and HOPEFULLY remedying their mistakes so AMD can't take advantage of the situation too much and bury them in a fury of fists. Because a market with only one company at the top isn't a market at all, it is a monopoly, and at that point, all of us lose (especially gamers....).

So as to the OPers question if nVidia would come back at all.... I wasn't even aware that they had left.



well,They're certainly not here yet.
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