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MSI's Lucid board delayed.

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a b U Graphics card
November 5, 2009 7:24:27 PM

MSI's Lucid based board being delayed! Nvidia is getting on my nerves lately.

http://www.semiaccurate.com/2009/11/04/nvidia-crushes-m...

"update" crap sorry made this into a question meant to be a discussion.
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
November 5, 2009 8:35:09 PM

I have a feeling it may be worse than "delayed", but we'll see what happens.
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 6, 2009 1:55:57 AM

invisik said:
MSI's Lucid based board being delayed! Nvidia is getting on my nerves lately.

http://www.semiaccurate.com/2009/11/04/nvidia-crushes-m...

"update" crap sorry made this into a question meant to be a discussion.

Quote:
The MSI Big Bang Fuzion (Hydra 200) hardware is ready. Currently Lucid is optimizing the driver for Windows 7 so that it works stable and in all configurations (Including Mix & Match mode). Because MSI is dedicated to bring high quality and stable product on the market we decided to postpone the Big Bang Fuzion (Hydra 200) pending the MSI internal qualification assurance test. The Big Bang Fuzion (Hydra 200) will be released when it’s driver is finished which is most likely Q1 2010

How does this have anything to do with Nvidia?
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a c 147 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
November 6, 2009 2:21:05 AM

just one thing in my mind though. even if Lucid able to put both ATI and nvidia cards works together will it able to make nvidia PhysX working? because with the new driver the PhysX should be disabled whenever ATI cards are present in the system. (assuming that win 7 patch to make PhysX working with presence of ATI cards are not applied or anything patch or hack to make it work with other version of windows)
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a b U Graphics card
November 6, 2009 2:30:45 PM

"Nvidia is very protective of it's SLI 'technology', if you define technology as blacklisting those who don't tithe in the drivers. They use it as a blunt weapon to tax users and enthusiasts, not to mention to bring in money. We heard through the grapevine at IDF that Nvidia was not happy about Lucid, and was going to break Lucid's Hydra chip at the driver level to protect its SLI tax."

Seems like nvidia doesnt want to lose money for sli licensing.
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a b U Graphics card
November 6, 2009 3:33:09 PM

The roumer (again, I stress the roumer part) is that NVIDIA forced the issue on MSI. Basically, this kills their nforce200 chip business, so NVIDIA won't want this to ever see the market.

Of course, AMD could always pick it up; look at if from their point of view:
Intel supports SLI + CF
AMD supports CF
AMD doesn't have much of a price premium on CF

So imagine if they picked up Hydra: The hurt nforce200 sales (hurting NVIDIA), all their new mobos get SLI (via hydra) (hurting Intel), and they likely increase sales of their own cards due to NVIDIAs lack of new cards (increased market share + profit).

So my question is this: If NVIDIA is putting the squeeze on, why wouldn't AMD gobble this up?
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 6, 2009 6:09:03 PM

It's good to know who believes the ranting of the heavily biased Charlie and those who can read an article in it's entirety and come to a (slightly) different conclusion whilst still not taking into account the update to the article which states that MSI are the ones whe put it on hold not Nvidia, but hey why let facts get in the way of mindless prejudice eh?
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November 6, 2009 7:09:21 PM

gamerk316 said:

So imagine if they picked up Hydra: The hurt nforce200 sales (hurting NVIDIA), all their new mobos get SLI (via hydra) (hurting Intel), and they likely increase sales of their own cards due to NVIDIAs lack of new cards (increased market share + profit).

So my question is this: If NVIDIA is putting the squeeze on, why wouldn't AMD gobble this up?

AMD wont pick up Hydra as default chip for multi-gpu solution EVEN if it would be a better solution than CF (I'm not saying it is) simply because its owned by Intel, AMD will never risk it. Even if it wouldnt be owned by Intel, it makes little sense to rely on 3rd party for the crucial CF support.

Mousemonkey said:
It's good to know who believes the ranting of the heavily biased Charlie and those who can read an article in it's entirety and come to a (slightly) different conclusion whilst still not taking into account the update to the article which states that MSI are the ones whe put it on hold not Nvidia, but hey why let facts get in the way of mindless prejudice eh?

Charlie is biased, nonetheless he is often right lately, sometimes he posts inside info a year before anyone else. That said, its not clear yet if he is wrong or right about MSI Lucid, tbh I expected for MSI to send such update before I even saw it ;)  Its usual neutral PR spin (not saying its right or wrong either, we dont know yet, but we will soon). Also its obvious MSI technically put it on hold, because Nvidia doesnt own MSI ;)  Still it would be strange to deny behind the scene influence, its like saying Ubisoft removed DX 10.1 from AC, therefore Nvidia have nothing to do with it :lol: 
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 6, 2009 7:20:14 PM

The burden of proof always lies with the accuser not the accused, so where is the undeniable proof?
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November 6, 2009 7:24:28 PM

Mousemonkey said:
The burden of proof always lies with the accuser not the accused, so where is the undeniable proof?

Near future will show who is right, one can simply use inside sources and deduction. Asking undeniable proof is demanding for Nvidia with MSI to come forward and say "Nvidia doesnt like Hydra, therefore offered incentives we couldnt refuse so we pulled the plug on it!" :lol: 
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 6, 2009 7:35:10 PM

Harrisson said:
Near future will show who is right, one can simply use inside sources and deduction. Asking undeniable proof is demanding for Nvidia with MSI to come forward and say "Nvidia doesnt like Hydra, therefore offered incentives we couldnt refuse so we pulled the plug on it!" :lol: 

I just prefer factual evidence as opposed to knee jerk accusations, but that's me.
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November 6, 2009 9:08:15 PM

Mousemonkey said:
I just prefer factual evidence as opposed to knee jerk accusations, but that's me.

Nothing wrong with wanting factual evidence. Now how do you get it in such case? You dont. Nvidia or MSI will NEVER tell you about behind the table deals (if there are any). So either you believe companies PR and automatically reject what Charlie or w/e say, or you examine with common sense and see if such scenario is believable, especially if companies has a track record of similar behavior.
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 6, 2009 9:16:35 PM

Harrisson said:
Nothing wrong with wanting factual evidence. Now how do you get it in such case? You dont. Nvidia or MSI will NEVER tell you about behind the table deals (if there are any). So either you believe companies PR and automatically reject what Charlie or w/e say, or you examine with common sense and see if such scenario is believable, especially if companies has a track record of similar behavior.

If you just wish to believe the rantings of a heavily biased individual then so be it, I'll wait for the facts to surface.
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November 6, 2009 11:08:30 PM

Mousemonkey said:
If you just wish to believe the rantings of a heavily biased individual then so be it, I'll wait for the facts to surface.

I never said I believe blindly Charlie, on the other hand I dont blindly reject him either, just because he is biased doesnt mean he is always wrong (lately he is often gets facts right). The facts about MSI Hydra probably wont surface, lets say Hydra gets canned as Charlie suggested (or will be released in limited quantities and silently die), PRs will spin it (bugs, change of focus, w/e), you will probably think its true, I would think Charlie got this right, since pretty great Hydra product was replaced with analog with Nvidia chip. Even in this case we wont know FACTS, just interpretations.
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a b U Graphics card
November 6, 2009 11:20:51 PM

Mousemonkey said:

How does this have anything to do with Nvidia?

Most of Charlie's articles do, however, I came to the same conclusion. NVIDIA barely got a mention other than a reference to nForce 200 until the end. The title of the article doesn't reflect the content.
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 6, 2009 11:26:36 PM

Harrisson said:
I never said I believe blindly Charlie, on the other hand I dont blindly reject him either, just because he is biased doesnt mean he is always wrong (lately he is often gets facts right). The facts about MSI Hydra probably wont surface, lets say Hydra gets canned as Charlie suggested (or will be released in limited quantities and silently die), PRs will spin it (bugs, change of focus, w/e), you will probably think its true, I would think Charlie got this right, since pretty great Hydra product was replaced with analog with Nvidia chip. Even in this case we wont know FACTS, just interpretations.

Then I shall interpret it as Intel having a quiet word as they are the ones who would benefit by using the Lucid chip so they could stop Nv from making chipsets for the i5 and i7's but as they are facing another lawsuit for uncompetitive behaviour from AMD, having Nv bringing one for the chipset side is not the best of timing, so they (Intel) decided to put the mockers on the Lucid chip as it then seems that they are not standing in the way of Nv's chipset business, seems entirely plausible to me especially as Intel won't grant Nv an x86 licence.
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a b U Graphics card
November 7, 2009 11:21:41 AM

If you haven't been reading the new it seems as if nvidia doesn't want to share any of its technology with ati. Physics as well as the aa being disabled in Batman. It doesnt seem they would be okay with lucid because they don't want to pair there technology with ati cards. What would they gain from lucid? Maybe a bit more marketshare, but i think ati would benefit a lot more.
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November 8, 2009 1:02:54 AM

invisik said:
If you haven't been reading the new it seems as if nvidia doesn't want to share any of its technology with ati. Physics as well as the aa being disabled in Batman. It doesnt seem they would be okay with lucid because they don't want to pair there technology with ati cards. What would they gain from lucid? Maybe a bit more marketshare, but i think ati would benefit a lot more.


Try reading some news yourself, Intel have more at stake here than your prejudice against Nvidia is letting you see.




This is a company that has the rights to the x86 licence that it will not share with Nvidia to allow them to make their own CPU or a gpGPU that can use x86 code and I don't see AMD jumping up and down to give an x64 licence to NV either, but I suppose that's OK by you and in no way wrong or uncompetitive in any way shape form or fashion.
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 1:11:48 AM

Well AMD has no reason to give an x86-64 licence to NVIDIA until Intel budges first. They aren't mutually exclusive.
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 8, 2009 1:22:01 AM

I know, I just find the 'open mindedness' being shown here to be rather biased as in non existent. Why should a company that is refused licences from it's competitors have to give it's IP to those very same competitors for free?
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 1:42:48 AM

Because that's TWIMTBP. :kaola: 
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 8, 2009 1:47:03 AM

:lol: 
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 2:05:05 AM

OK, heres what I know.
nVidia involvement just isnt there, other than the possible driver block.
It does seem lately, if anything bad can be attributed to nVidia, it happens.
Driver blocking is bad, and hopefully both ATI and nVidia allow for this, as weve seen enough blocking lately.
Which brings this back around to nVidia again. If youve been the bad guy, then again the bad guy, and going further back, the bad guy, even when the opposition too may have done some as well, even tho its been awhile for that older activity, doing it too often and for along time, it puts it up there as plausible.
nVidia didnt do this, and tell me, if Lucid was truly ready, whats stopping MSI from having an exclusive here, possibly making for fantastic sales?
Also, for design wins, youd want your product solid, for the OEMs.
While I dont excuse nVidias recent or late past actions, this is piling on, and to me doesnt fit in the pile of nVidias questionable activities IMHO
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 8, 2009 2:20:23 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
OK, heres what I know.
nVidia involvement just isnt there, other than the possible driver block.
It does seem lately, if anything bad can be attributed to nVidia, it happens.
Driver blocking is bad, and hopefully both ATI and nVidia allow for this, as weve seen enough blocking lately.
Which brings this back around to nVidia again. If youve been the bad guy, then again the bad guy, and going further back, the bad guy, even when the opposition too may have done some as well, even tho its been awhile for that older activity, doing it too often and for along time, it puts it up there as plausible.
nVidia didnt do this, and tell me, if Lucid was truly ready, whats stopping MSI from having an exclusive here, possibly making for fantastic sales?
Also, for design wins, youd want your product solid, for the OEMs.
While I dont excuse nVidias recent or late past actions, this is piling on, and to me doesnt fit in the pile of nVidias questionable activities IMHO

When you start getting upset about the lack of x86 licence that Nv don't have , you know the one that AMD and Intel both have , the one that they won't share, then I might agree that NV should share, until then it's a one way bias being shown as far as I'm concerned.
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 2:35:33 AM

Hey, Im the guy defending AMD left and right, saying the 86 licensing is overblown anyways.
While I dont think it should come freely, there should be no restrictions on it at all, other than for security reasons, but make those security reasons known, and not hide behind them as well.
Weve seen enough collusion lately, and adding in the Pols is the worse.
Im trying to deflect this as being a nVidia issue, other than driver block, and also trying to respect IP, and in the middle trying to make everyone happy, be it the IP owner, other potential solution cadidates, or us, the consumers.
If it doesnt get fixed, something/one has to give. When it happens alot, as in Intels reluctance of GF, or the removal of Physx from a ATI soluton, something or anything to me, being done, is a better solution, and that the honus lies on the IP bearer IMHO
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 2:59:51 AM

Check the article for an update at the bottom. NVIDIA is in the clear it seems, if MSI PR can be trusted.
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 8, 2009 3:11:26 AM

randomizer said:
Check the article for an update at the bottom. NVIDIA is in the clear it seems, if MSI PR can be trusted.

I did quote that update in my first post in this thread which was the third post in this tread but subsequent posters appear to have overlooked or ignored it as it does not support their opinions it seems.
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November 8, 2009 3:17:19 AM

ofc current trend is if there is a problem and it has anything to do with nvidia it must be nvidia's fault.
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 3:21:55 AM

Well I read a better source before all this
@ MM, as when it was first announced, in the other thread, I also dismissed it then too, as the source came out with the truth
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 3:23:05 AM

Mousemonkey said:
I did quote that update in my first post in this thread which was the third post in this tread but subsequent posters appear to have overlooked or ignored it as it does not support their opinions it seems.

Haha, and I quoted that post of yours and somehow didn't notice the update you quoted there. :ange: 
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a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 8, 2009 3:24:47 AM

IzzyCraft said:
ofc current trend is if there is a problem and it has anything to do with nvidia it must be nvidia's fault.

And if a problem has nothing to do with Nvidia it must also be Nvidia's fault it seems, even if Nvidia are the ones who are adversely affected. Talk about a no win situation. :lol: 
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 3:30:30 AM

Mousemonkey said:
And if a problem has nothing to do with Nvidia it must also be Nvidia's fault it seems, even if Nvidia are the ones who are adversely affected. Talk about a no win situation. :lol: 

Similar to making claims of bad management, bad decisions etc, after the damage has already occured.
I agree to a point, but we must remember the boy who cried wolf
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 3:34:46 AM

Wouldn't the "boy who cried wolf" fable apply to the reporter?
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 8, 2009 3:37:48 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
Similar to making claims of bad management, bad decisions etc, after the damage has already occured.
I agree to a point, but we must remember the boy who cried wolf

:heink:  I don't get how that relates here.
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November 8, 2009 3:37:56 AM

it just makes us the towns people which is appropriate.
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 3:53:51 AM

Claiming the Physx will work on all solutions,DX10.1 not important etc
Fermi

You know how its gone
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 3:55:43 AM

Mayhbe I should have used pinnokeynose
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 3:57:49 AM

And BTW, theres alot of people who think the same about batman AA and AC as well, with the DX10.1
Its a perception nVidia has continued to add to
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 8, 2009 4:01:02 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
And BTW, theres alot of people who think the same about batman AA and AC as well, with the DX10.1
Its a perception nVidia has continued to add to

But what people have have been so quick to forget and thus not consider is the 'why' and instead have concentrated on the 'what'.
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 4:12:24 AM

Thus my previous comments.
I understand your side, now, understand mine.
I said Im in the middle here. Other people believe certain nthings happened in a few of what of the things Ive pointed out. nVidia continues to find itself amongst these types of things, due to its behavior.
People dont want ATI or nVidia messin with their games, period.
Now, things that arent even attributable to nVidia, nVidia is being accused of.
So, I make my comments about what I knew before all this, and this thread as well
nVidias been pushing its customer base away for awhile now, and tho most people will go with their favorite, or their wallet, or even an exclusive function, and can will forgive a few things, if they keep on coming, morals enter in eventually, as most people I know have morals and lines not to be crossed.
Im not judging nVidia here, but I dont want to see any misjudging either
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 4:17:54 AM

Basically, what alot of people are getting from nVidia lately is selfishness, as in, you dont force sacrifices on others for your own good.
Most dont know the larger picture either, and how important certain decisions may be
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 8, 2009 4:33:30 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
Thus my previous comments.
I understand your side, now, understand mine.
I said Im in the middle here. Other people believe certain nthings happened in a few of what of the things Ive pointed out. nVidia continues to find itself amongst these types of things, due to its behavior.
People dont want ATI or nVidia messin with their games, period.
Now, things that arent even attributable to nVidia, nVidia is being accused of.
So, I make my comments about what I knew before all this, and this thread as well
nVidias been pushing its customer base away for awhile now, and tho most people will go with their favorite, or their wallet, or even an exclusive function, and can will forgive a few things, if they keep on coming, morals enter in eventually, as most people I know have morals and lines not to be crossed.
Im not judging nVidia here, but I dont want to see any misjudging either

And I am making my comment based on what I've seen over the last few years as well, which is why I wonder about your constant comments on Nvidias behaviour. A few years back Nv talked about getting an x86 licence so that they could expand their business in to new fields, this was blocked at every turn by Intel who went so far as to say that even if Nvidia bought a company that had an x86 licence the licence would not be transferable and as soon as the ownership papers were signed the licence would disappear, Nvidia still carried on with their belief that gpGPU computing was the way to go and as such pressed on regardless whilst ATi became part of AMD and Intel carried on with LRB, now considering your thread about 'have cpu's lost their clout?' how can you ask me to believe that the past has not had any bearing on the present and the future or are you saying that gpGPU's are to be ignored because LRB cannot and will not use any x86 or x64 and AMD/ATi have no plans or ability to make an x86 x64 gpGPU and just because neither of them wish share that tech is no reason for Nvidia to keep a hold of it's own tech.
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 5:18:54 AM

No, I know this is way off topic, but, in a way, it isnt, as this does pertain to peoples perception of nVidia, so if the OP allows, here goes.
Ive been defending Fermi in that thread, and would love to see the 86 license become just that, a license, and not a clubhouse for the good ol boys.
Competition is a good thing.
Whatever nVidia does on gpgpu, or Intel does with LRB, AMD can do either, and since Intels decided just to go cpu variant with LRB, will still be limited, IMHO, and welcome nVidia to have 86 licensing , not because it has huge needs to have one, which everyone should know, that being denied a 86 license could threaten nVidias existence, and again, competition is good in my mind.
Fermi will show us whether the gpu option is the way to the future or cpu approach, or a blending, which nVidia is currently incapable of, but not of their own doing.
Again, I want to see all options, and its a crime that nVidia wont or currently ar least, isnt allowed to venture in this direction, and all this could change with the FTCs decision on Intel, as my latest postings on the Intel thread shows:
"The New York case is a case about the past," Balto said. "The FTC case will be a case about the future. It will be focusing on dynamic competition, the impact on innovation, on how Intel's conduct ... is going to harm competition and consumers in the future, stifling the ability of new rivals to emerge..."

"It will take Intel's case from a whole different perspective and bring a whole new dimension of concerns," he said.
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9140420/FTC_expe...
This action, if taken up by the FTC could involve the 86 license, and may bode well for nVidia, again, I hope so, we need competition
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 8, 2009 5:30:23 AM

And who's to say that if Nv were to get said x86 - x64 licence usage opened up to them that they would not reciprocate by opening up the SLi and Physx licences for usage by others.
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 5:38:18 AM

If this does happen, as a yank, such actions would lay to rest all the exceptions other have about the US, and maybe for other yanks, show the EU isnt just money grubbers as well.
Ultimately, justice should prevail, and so should things like having working AA in games by all card makers, and no ID lockouts, as this is the same path that is wrong, and calling the kettle black can be attributed to it.
Im all for open sources, equal chances, and getting my monies worth, and propelling gaming adbancement further, and the 2 things I mentioned above here, AA and limited licensing, goes away from this direction
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November 8, 2009 5:54:23 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
If this does happen, as a yank, such actions would lay to rest all the exceptions other have about the US, and maybe for other yanks, show the EU isnt just money grubbers as well.
Ultimately, justice should prevail, and so should things like having working AA in games by all card makers, and no ID lockouts, as this is the same path that is wrong, and calling the kettle black can be attributed to it.
Im all for open sources, equal chances, and getting my monies worth, and propelling gaming adbancement further, and the 2 things I mentioned above here, AA and limited licensing, goes away from this direction

[:wolfen18:9] And perhaps now you can see what my point of view has been all this time, which is that all this has been a bit of tit for tat between corps with gamers just being a bit of collateral damage, the tit(s) being Intel and AMD keeping their toys to themselves a few years, back with the x86/64 licence not being granted and the tat a couple of years later with the restrictions/disallowing of SLi and Physx by Nvidia. :D 
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 6:16:40 AM

Well, of course it starts with Intel as thats where nVidia started as well, only some 64 belongs to AMD.
Like Ive been saying, I see the bigger picture here, and this is maybe a good thread to open others eyes to these things as well, and a few Im sure, attitudes may change, but others still wont, and they shouldnt, as this is unacceptable, but maybe allow for some leniency at the very least.
Thats why I came in here to clean it up.
Itd gone too far, I knew better, we need nVidia, they meed to change some things sure, but shouldnt be found guilty of anything that points towards their desires, because sometimes things just happen.
Now, if only like Ive been saying, they all work together for PC gaming, as it needs a boost
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a c 172 Î Nvidia
November 8, 2009 6:38:56 AM

I too would like to see PC gaming and computing in general moving forward but I would also like to see a bit more thought put into questioning the motives behind the actions of company's rather than the singling out one as the devil incarnate as you did when you started the thread that kinda kicked all this off, and yes I do mean that Batman AA thread.
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 7:13:25 AM

That original thread, well theres not been much changed there unfortunately, as adding code to a commonly used thing, then segregating it for ones own use is bad business, and since the devs have said ATIs request of removing it wont happen, theres not alot one can do, since others has the license to it.
After what weve read here, that must be easy to understand.
It wasnt just that, it was the AC thing, the non use of DX10.1,the latter use of DX10.1 brought out verrry discretely, if its just me, I accept what I said as true to the best of my knowledge, and unfavorable towards nVidia, but if it includes others conclusions on this and a myriad of other subjects, a few I just named, then no, tho I too have certain opinions on those things as well.
I had knowledge about the MSI thing, so I made my opinion heard here as well.
I read, I do a few things, know who to listen to etc, make and form an idea as to whats going down, then may or may not say something about it, whether Im the first, or somewheres in between.
Ive read more on the Batman AA thing as Ive said, and its the same thing, no one can add anything to it, except what we have, which is the code itself, and how it got there. 1 thing I did find out was, implementing the AA is going to happen in Batman AA, even on ATI cards, tho, using one wont give you AA, as its blocked after implementation has already started.
nVidia said they wrote the code, its there, twice over, now with a securom. Dont know what to say
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2009 7:18:09 AM

AC came before, DX10.1 came before, high prifcing came before, renaming came before, if that thread was the beginning of peoples attitudes towards nVidia, just dontr know what to say, but personally I dont think it was, and as I said, I stand by my words, or if found wrong, I correct my mistakes
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