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Lowest safe water temps in system?

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March 8, 2012 2:03:59 PM

hi all, i recently posted a new build/watercooling question over in the new build forum http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/338875-13-issues-wa...
any advice on a safe level of water input temperature or anything else associated with a run to waste system would be greatly appreciated, cheers.
a c 324 K Overclocking
March 8, 2012 2:15:40 PM

Water temp isn't going to be an issue unless freezing is a possibility. However, there are several other considerations- we typically use distilled water in loops; introducing residential or well water into a loop with copper components will require a filter and the need to clean any mineral build up that would occur.

Can you give us a detailed idea of what you want to do, step by step? This might helps us sort out what you intend to do and offer suggestions based on your intended plan.

Also- just to clarify: watercooling doesn't mean you eliminated fans altogether- you still need them. It depends on what all you intend to watercool, but you'll have to cool several components on your motherboard, hard drives, etc, that might not be covered by a water block.
March 8, 2012 8:56:44 PM

rubix_1011 said:
Water temp isn't going to be an issue unless freezing is a possibility. However, there are several other considerations- we typically use distilled water in loops; introducing residential or well water into a loop with copper components will require a filter and the need to clean any mineral build up that would occur.

Can you give us a detailed idea of what you want to do, step by step? This might helps us sort out what you intend to do and offer suggestions based on your intended plan.

Also- just to clarify: watercooling doesn't mean you eliminated fans altogether- you still need them. It depends on what all you intend to watercool, but you'll have to cool several components on your motherboard, hard drives, etc, that might not be covered by a water block.


hi rubix thanks for the reply, i did consider the water mineral level but we do have a good purification system and as yet the copper pipe work i put in 10 years ago seems good, i dont know anything about waterblocks but i imagine thats the part to keep an eye on for build up?
my general idea was to take a spur from my cold water supply to feed a header tank mounted at 7ft height in a wall space and around40 litres in size with a ballcock on the fill and a motorised valve on the outlet feeding the 1/4 hose down the wall.
on the pc side basically i want a waterblock on everything possible and was considering a charge cooler type idea on the case by puting the cold water flow through a quad rad mounted on the side with the airflow directed inside to cool it and the water passing on to the waterblocks then to waste, all i can think about at the moment is condensation but surely if i can blow air slightly cooler than the blocks over them its not a problem... is it?
the water temps are always really low but freezing isnt a concern.
literally the only component i have is the domestic plumbing parts a few old cases and motherboard, i plan on a 7870 and the ivy bridge 2500k replacement when available, other than ssd drives all the other components are still to be decided.
sorry for the late reply, pesky work lol.
Related resources
a c 190 K Overclocking
March 8, 2012 9:30:02 PM

Now this is a project :-)
Give 4Ryan6 a Pm as well, get that crazy man onboard :-)
Moto
a c 225 K Overclocking
March 9, 2012 9:42:47 AM

evilhubsway said:
hi all, i recently posted a new build/watercooling question over in the new build forum http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/338875-13-issues-wa...
any advice on a safe level of water input temperature or anything else associated with a run to waste system would be greatly appreciated, cheers.


I was going to do exactly the same thing even bought most of what I needed to set it up, but I just couldn't get comfortable enough to just waste the good tap water, and it would take good clean water or your water blocks would be clogged in no time at all.

Having clean water is such a blessing sometimes we take for granted but as fast as this worlds population is growing and consuming natural necessities, I couldn't convince myself purposely wasting it was the best solution, however you may not have those feelings, so not to shoot down your idea.

I'll add to what you need to know to do what you're thinking and supply you a link to an alternate solution you may not have even considered, that I fully believe is the better alternative.

My ambient room temperature is normally 23c, at 23c ambient I have been able to run my water temperature as low as 8c when condensation begins with a frosty look the water beads are micro sized, good airflow over the water block keeps the micro drops from accumulating,

I looked at your original thread and I suggest total water cooling with no fans at all is not a good idea, you will need airflow to control condensation, the airflow will evaporate the condensation before it becomes a devastating problem meaning water+ electrical components = BAD, even if it is condensation and not direct tap water.

In my situation when the water temperature goes below 8c the further it drops the more condensation is evident down to 5c distinguishable drops have formed, but intense airflow can even control that, but below 5c the condensation can get out of control.

I like to stay completely on the safe side of things and from all my testing I don't have any concerns as long as my water temperature is above 8c, now any water temperatures below ambient are supplying cooling you just will not get with a traditional water cooling loop,

But my goals are for overclocking and my setup I linked you to is all about overclocking, but its also about constantly running cooler CPU temperatures on a daily basis, even when I am not overclocking, FYI the setup I linked can be put into operation for around the $260.00 range.

If you're determined to go the tap water route, you'll need 2 brass ballcock valves in series, set one valve to open & close for the input water supply, set the second to the flow rate you'll actually need you will not be running your raw water line pressure, you will need to set the second ballcock valve to allow the water flow controlled.

Then you'll have to figure out what to do with the waste water, I see in your other thread you mentioned 2500K, if you intend to overclock it, keep in mind even your tap water solution may let you down, it will be a constant temperature but may not be as low as you might think.

I advise doing some temperature tests of your tap water at your sink so you can get an idea of exactly what temperature your tap water actually is. Ryan
a c 225 K Overclocking
March 9, 2012 9:55:54 AM

Motopsychojdn said:
Now this is a project :-)
Give 4Ryan6 a Pm as well, get that crazy man onboard :-)
Moto


Crazy Man :lol:  I like that! Thanks Moto!
March 9, 2012 11:21:26 AM

Motopsychojdn said:
Now this is a project :-)
Give 4Ryan6 a Pm as well, get that crazy man onboard :-)
Moto


thanks moto, appears he found me ;-)
March 9, 2012 12:35:54 PM

4Ryan6 said:
I was going to do exactly the same thing even bought most of what I needed to set it up, but I just couldn't get comfortable enough to just waste the good tap water, and it would take good clean water or your water blocks would be clogged in no time at all.

Having clean water is such a blessing sometimes we take for granted but as fast as this worlds population is growing and consuming natural necessities, I couldn't convince myself purposely wasting it was the best solution, however you may not have those feelings, so not to shoot down your idea.

I'll add to what you need to know to do what you're thinking and supply you a link to an alternate solution you may not have even considered, that I fully believe is the better alternative.

My ambient room temperature is normally 23c, at 23c ambient I have been able to run my water temperature as low as 8c when condensation begins with a frosty look the water beads are micro sized, good airflow over the water block keeps the micro drops from accumulating,

I looked at your original thread and I suggest total water cooling with no fans at all is not a good idea, you will need airflow to control condensation, the airflow will evaporate the condensation before it becomes a devastating problem meaning water+ electrical components = BAD, even if it is condensation and not direct tap water.

In my situation when the water temperature goes below 8c the further it drops the more condensation is evident down to 5c distinguishable drops have formed, but intense airflow can even control that, but below 5c the condensation can get out of control.

I like to stay completely on the safe side of things and from all my testing I don't have any concerns as long as my water temperature is above 8c, now any water temperatures below ambient are supplying cooling you just will not get with a traditional water cooling loop,

But my goals are for overclocking and my setup I linked you to is all about overclocking, but its also about constantly running cooler CPU temperatures on a daily basis, even when I am not overclocking, FYI the setup I linked can be put into operation for around the $260.00 range.

If you're determined to go the tap water route, you'll need 2 brass ballcock valves in series, set one valve to open & close for the input water supply, set the second to the flow rate you'll actually need you will not be running your raw water line pressure, you will need to set the second ballcock valve to allow the water flow controlled.

Then you'll have to figure out what to do with the waste water, I see in your other thread you mentioned 2500K, if you intend to overclock it, keep in mind even your tap water solution may let you down, it will be a constant temperature but may not be as low as you might think.

I advise doing some temperature tests of your tap water at your sink so you can get an idea of exactly what temperature your tap water actually is. Ryan


thanks so much for all the information Ryan, nice to hear real experiences with such a system.
i understand your concerns with water consumption but no water will be wasted in my system, all water other than foul is sent to my irrigation tanks for use later. as for the minerals in the water i believe are filter system is a carbon/uv hybrid so it shouldnt be a problem, new waterblocks wouldnt break the bank anyway.
i have taken a few readings and the water has an average temp of 5c and with the info you gave me surely it would be easier to maintain water input temp level than try to cope with condensation? i know that isnt ideal for overclocking but a near silent system with a modest overclock is more my aim, price isn't a issue but as with everything i dont like wasting money lol.
thanks for the link and what a great project, had a idea very similar but with an outdoor cooling unit but any outdoor pipe work is a risk for me sadly due to freezing. when you say a ballcock to control the flow speed how would i shut the flow off when the system is not in use? i was hoping to use a motorised valve to switch the flow on and off with the pc, and control the flow speed but a ballcock would be simpler.
i realise i need some airflow through the cab so was going to put the cold water fill through a large high flow quad rad to bring the air temp down entering the cab.
i just had another idea..if was to put my cold and hot water through a thermostatic valve set to 10c on the fill to the header tank then i know my water will be a constant temperature, well almost.
im not really stuck on the ivy bridge 2500k equivalent so any better suggestions within a reasonable price would be great, the same goes for all components really other than motherboard, i already have a p8z68 m pro gen3 but would change it if needs be.
oh i plan on a purely gravity fed system.
thanks again for your help/input, im sure i have plenty of flaws in my plan but im really not a pc guy, this is my first build. hub
a c 225 K Overclocking
March 9, 2012 4:45:08 PM

Quote:
when you say a ballcock to control the flow speed how would i shut the flow off when the system is not in use?


2 ballcock valves inline with each other, the first valve is the on/off valve, the 2nd valve is the valve that you leave set partially opened controlling the flow rate you need.

ArthurH is another moderator, he actually ran a system like you're talking about for a few months, I'll see if he can get in on this.

a c 324 K Overclocking
March 9, 2012 4:48:48 PM

Ballcock, you say?

:lol: 
a c 190 K Overclocking
March 9, 2012 4:49:22 PM

Although if its gravity fed, theres no power involved and an on/off valve would be largely unneccesary, unless you planned in a quick disonnect for removal purposes as well between the two
for when you want to change/clean blocks etc, you need an easy (relatively) way to remove it all from the water loop safely
Moto
March 9, 2012 6:37:11 PM

4Ryan6 said:
Quote:
when you say a ballcock to control the flow speed how would i shut the flow off when the system is not in use?


2 ballcock valves inline with each other, the first valve is the on/off valve, the 2nd valve is the valve that you leave set partially opened controlling the flow rate you need.

ArthurH is another moderator, he actually ran a system like you're talking about for a few months, I'll see if he can get in on this.


ah yes i see now, that would be great if you can get ArthurH to give me any pointers also, thanks again.
March 9, 2012 6:39:24 PM

rubix_1011 said:
Ballcock, you say?

:lol: 


so long as its not a female going on about a stopcock im happy lol.
a c 324 K Overclocking
March 9, 2012 6:46:51 PM

I just couldn't resist.

Carry on.
a c 190 K Overclocking
March 9, 2012 6:47:39 PM

and the descent into madness begins :) 
:p 
Moto
a c 324 K Overclocking
March 9, 2012 6:49:37 PM

Sorry, my fault to derail the train of thought.
a c 190 K Overclocking
March 9, 2012 6:53:51 PM

rubix_1011 said:
Sorry, my fault to derail the train of thought.


Np Bro, now lets get Back on track
and stock up on the coffee guys, I don't want any sleepers on this project

:p 
Moto
March 9, 2012 6:55:48 PM

Motopsychojdn said:
Although if its gravity fed, theres no power involved and an on/off valve would be largely unneccesary, unless you planned in a quick disonnect for removal purposes as well between the two
for when you want to change/clean blocks etc, you need an easy (relatively) way to remove it all from the water loop safely
Moto


hi moto, i see your point but my entire domestic water system is pump driven so the ability to stop the flow from the header tank altogether is quite important to reduce load on the main well pump when not entirely necessary, its quite expensive to replace :(  hopefully i can fashion some pushfit to compression fitting wall plate so when i need to drain or move it the syphon effect will pretty much empty the system, with some in and out braided hoses from wall plate to pc, i will add a couple of manual valves for safety though.
hub
March 9, 2012 7:03:14 PM

haha, please dont get me started on flange and the like lol.
a b K Overclocking
March 10, 2012 3:09:22 AM

evilhubsway said:
ah yes i see now, that would be great if you can get ArthurH to give me any pointers also, thanks again.


Hi there. :hello: 

Ryan was correct about me running this kind of water cooling system as your looking into.

Turned out that my water line was close enough to the surface of the ground to be warmed up in the Summer to ~ 70'+F.

In the winter it stayed ~ 50'F. Which is probably what your well water temp is.

The nice thing about this kind of water cooling was I could just increase the flow to my CPU at higher clocks and still keep it very cool. I just wasted the water to my sewer, which cost me on average ~$5.00 a month.

I live in the Lead Belt of Missouri, U.S.A. and our drinking water has very high contents of minerals in it. It caused my tubing to get a white coating on the inside but had absolutely no effect on my copper water block.

I actually plumbed my water system with half inch copper pipe with a main ballcock shut-off valve followed by(later) with another ballcock valve set to the flow rate I wanted my CPU temp to run at. More flow = closer to water ambient temp which was lower than room temp my PC is in.

I stopped using that system because the flow I needed in the summer was really getting high, above 30 PSI line pressure, to maintain suffient cooling for my CPU. :ouch: 

I currently went back to using a water cooling system I used in 2008, which just happens to look almost exactly like Ryans. This system meets all my needs. ( I really like to experiment with my PC ) :sol: 
a c 225 K Overclocking
March 10, 2012 9:19:27 AM

evilhubsway said:
i have taken a few readings and the water has an average temp of 5c and with the info you gave me surely it would be easier to maintain water input temp level than try to cope with condensation? i know that isnt ideal for overclocking but a near silent system with a modest overclock is more my aim, price isn't a issue but as with everything i dont like wasting money lol.
thanks for the link and what a great project, had a idea very similar but with an outdoor cooling unit but any outdoor pipe work is a risk for me sadly due to freezing. when you say a ballcock to control the flow speed how would i shut the flow off when the system is not in use? i was hoping to use a motorised valve to switch the flow on and off with the pc, and control the flow speed but a ballcock would be simpler.
i realise i need some airflow through the cab so was going to put the cold water fill through a large high flow quad rad to bring the air temp down entering the cab.
i just had another idea..if was to put my cold and hot water through a thermostatic valve set to 10c on the fill to the header tank then i know my water will be a constant temperature, well almost.



Wow 5C or 41F out of your tap, you definitely live in northern territory!

I live in the US in South Carolina our local ground water temperature is about 68F or in the 20C range, my ambient room temperature is 23c so my tap water temperature range would have never allowed some of what I have accomplished with my present setup.

In your situation with a dependable 5C constant, you have much more cooling capability and running a tap setup would be perfect for you, all you would really need to do to avoid condensation would be to run your water through a radiator setup before the PC, it would be the reverse of what everyone else uses the radiator for in your case you'd be warming the ground water a little, you would need fans on the radiator but they wouldn't have to be loud.

You would just need to find out how much radiator size and fin area it would take to control the water temperature, to what you need.

Quote:
i realise i need some airflow through the cab so was going to put the cold water fill through a large high flow quad rad to bring the air temp down entering the cab.


Alternately if I remember correctly you wanted to totally cool with water and you can do that with the various water blocks available, cooling your chipset, voltage regulators, CPU, GPU, HDD, if you went to the total expense of acquiring all the blocks you'll need to cool everything, you're getting into some money.

So I recommend you really think this thing out and plan it well, my radiator suggestion is for it to be located outside the PC using ambient room air to warm from the 5C range to avoid condensation.

If you could control your water temperature around the 10C range condensation shouldn't be a problem, but that's just a guess because your ambient room temperature and humidity levels are unknown.

And sending your water to your irrigation tanks is great, having a secondary viable use for the water makes the guilt level non existent, especially over running your output flow down the drain as waste water.


!