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Last few questions about water-cooling ...

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March 29, 2012 10:54:52 AM

Hi everyone !

This is the first WC I build. I have read many guides and threads, the sticky too (helped me a lot). I have a few questions left.

These are the parts I intend to use although some aren't available yet, feel free to make suggestions :)  :

Case : Lian li PC-X2000F, I will get the plexi side panel sometime (already bought this)
MB : EVGA Z77 (don't know which yet) with full MB block or universal if there is no full block
CPU : IB i7 3770K + XSPC Raystorm full copper
GPU : GTX 680 with full cover block or EVGA 680 hydro copper
Pump : Laing DDC 12V Ultra HF 38 (I know it's G3/8 threads)
Res : EK Water Blocks EK-Multioption RES X2 - 250 Advanced
Rad : Watercool MO-RA 3 PRO black 9 X 140 + 9 X Yate Loon 140mm D14SM-12 (1400 t/min), I know it's overkill but I couldn't resist ^^ (already bought this)
Tubing : Primochill Primaflex Pro LRT ID 13mm-1/2" OD 19mm-3/4"
And a little PSU to power the pump for leak test and filling

The rad will be set up outside the case of course. I intend on using QDCs so I can easily disconnect the rad from the rest of the loop so I can do the leak test and maintenance safely outside the case.

My questions are :

1. I have no idea which QDCs I should use. I hear Koolance make good ones. Are threaded QDCs made so I can fit barbs or compression fitting of my choice on them ? Do they restrict the water flow ?

2. I read on the sticky how to get an idea of the pump to use but the rad is quite big. Will this pump be enough ?

3. About the pump, I am not sure but it looks like the inlet is on top off the top provided with the pump. Am I right ?
This would be good as I intend to fit the res above the pump. Here is a link to the pump :
http://www.aquatuning.de/product_info.php/info/p9631_La...

Thank you for your time. I will probably have more questions later.
a c 324 K Overclocking
March 29, 2012 2:02:46 PM

1. I don't know much on QDC's, but I don't think they are threaded for fittings- they likely are just 'fittings' themselves and the QDC portion then connects to the other.

2. DDC pumps are pretty powerful, so you should be fine.

3. Most DDC pumps have their inlet in the center and the outlet on the side...I would assume this pump top works the same- inlet on the top/center and outlet on the side. Directions in the documentation should be able to confirm the flow direction for sure.

Why the MB block? I don't think it would be necessary, but it's your loop and your cash. They do look cool, but I don't think you would gain much from it other than looks.
March 29, 2012 2:32:37 PM

I did a bit of googling and the threaded ones are for screwing on waterblocks directly. So that's not what I want. But I found these from Koolance :
http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?...
http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?...
(male and female)
I think they are what I am looking for.

OK, so the pump is good. It took me a good deal of time to figure out the differences between different sorts of pumps. ^^

I will be overclocking the rig a lot. I know a MB block isn't necessary but it can't hurt (if properly installed, of course). But yes, it's mostly for the looks.

Another question : Is a EVGA hydro copper block as efficient as other GPU blocks ?
If yes, I'd get one of those an not loose the warranty for replacing the stock cooler.


Related resources
a c 225 K Overclocking
March 29, 2012 2:56:56 PM

I was going to respond earlier but had to wipe the drool from my keyboard after checking out your radiator! :) 

Quote:
Another question : Is a EVGA hydro copper block as efficient as other GPU blocks ?
If yes, I'd get one of those an not loose the warranty for replacing the stock cooler.


I'll go out on a limb here and say no, any full coverage water block that has to use thermal pads on the memory chips vs direct thermal compound application is not going to be the better cooling block.

My Heatkiller full coverage water blocks for my 580GTXs, were so well machined that I was able to use thermal compound directly on the memory chips and it tightened down to a perfect fit over all the chips.

So I would shoot for a water block that could be applied the same, you'll have to use the thermal pads on the VRs, but if you don't have to use them on the memory chips the cooling performance over the memory is definitely going to be better.

Just the fact that EVGA has to mass produce the hydro copper cards, and the fact that any cooler pull and investigation shows good and bad heat sink application tendencies, it's better to have the personal touch, because you'll do a lot better job applying the water block than any paid hourly employee.

Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking EVGA both my 580GTX are EVGA, but the heat sink application on one card was great, and the other card looked like a monkey had applied it.

I would want to know!

Especially when overclocking is involved!

a c 324 K Overclocking
March 29, 2012 3:10:08 PM

Agreed- I'm not knocking EVGA and their hydrocopper blocks, but I'd rather go something different, myself. I'm not sure who actually manufactures the hydrocopper blocks for them, so I can't really say for sure- I haven't tried to track down who actually makes them. That being said, there are other manufacturers that are dedicated to only producing, milling and selling watercooling blocks- this is their life and blood. As 4ryan6 mentioned above, their application and installation is questionable as they roll down an assembly line. I feel much better when I can read reviews on block performance, nuances and reviewer impressions. EVGA makes great GPUs; I just question their attention and dedication to watercooling them outside of advertising their own solution.

And yes, those Heatkiller blocks are very handsome looking...my, my, my...

I guess it didn't register that you had a MORA 3 Pro rad...that thing is huge. 7.7kg (~17 lbs!) and 475 x 430 x 65mm.
March 29, 2012 4:04:05 PM

rubix_1011 said:
Agreed- I'm not knocking EVGA and their hydrocopper blocks, but I'd rather go something different, myself. I'm not sure who actually manufactures the hydrocopper blocks for them, so I can't really say for sure- I haven't tried to track down who actually makes them. That being said, there are other manufacturers that are dedicated to only producing, milling and selling watercooling blocks- this is their life and blood. As 4ryan6 mentioned above, their application and installation is questionable as they roll down an assembly line. I feel much better when I can read reviews on block performance, nuances and reviewer impressions. EVGA makes great GPUs; I just question their attention and dedication to watercooling them outside of advertising their own solution.

And yes, those Heatkiller blocks are very handsome looking...my, my, my...

I guess it didn't register that you had a MORA 3 Pro rad...that thing is huge. 7.7kg (~17 lbs!) and 475 x 430 x 65mm.
I think it might be Swiftech who manufactures them...
a b K Overclocking
March 29, 2012 4:18:40 PM

Quote:
I did a bit of googling and the threaded ones are for screwing on waterblocks directly. So that's not what I want. But I found these from Koolance :
http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?...
http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?...
(male and female)
I think they are what I am looking for.


I had those exact ones in my loop a while back. Worked quite well, and they're definitely no-spill (not even a drop).

Two things you should know about them:
1) They're huge (2" in length at least)
2) The threadings are incredibly sharp since they're machined, so be careful when putting them on/taking them off. Cut my hands both times.

Quote:
I'm not sure who actually manufactures the hydrocopper blocks for them, so I can't really say for sure- I haven't tried to track down who actually makes them.


I've heard Swiftech more than once as well...

I would just advise against EK's nickel-plated blocks. It's a headache if you ever have to deal with an RMA, and I don't agree with their practices on the issue. Their copper blocks are fantastic though.
a c 78 K Overclocking
March 29, 2012 11:17:25 PM

yea they are from swiftech, can check out the Hydrocoppers from newegg and zoom in on one of the pics. besides, the GTX 680 HC are also listed to have swiftech blocks - all copper construct sans the plating :)  plus a touch of bling with a white EVGA LED

MORA 3 huh, i was looking at one of those too - for a totally passive workaround to a watercooling build from what i've read on bundemania's review*(will post link if i can dig it up), they aren't highly restrictive like my AMS rad - they are actually good for the price you pay :D  good job getting one!

+1 to EK full copper blocks - would be the best thing out on the market but the D6 is running amock, as far as martins tests have concluded.

have no knowledge about QDC's except they are handy to have for draining.

March 30, 2012 1:11:53 AM

rubix_1011 said:
Agreed- I'm not knocking EVGA and their hydrocopper blocks, but I'd rather go something different, myself. I'm not sure who actually manufactures the hydrocopper blocks for them, so I can't really say for sure- I haven't tried to track down who actually makes them. That being said, there are other manufacturers that are dedicated to only producing, milling and selling watercooling blocks- this is their life and blood. As 4ryan6 mentioned above, their application and installation is questionable as they roll down an assembly line. I feel much better when I can read reviews on block performance, nuances and reviewer impressions. EVGA makes great GPUs; I just question their attention and dedication to watercooling them outside of advertising their own solution.

And yes, those Heatkiller blocks are very handsome looking...my, my, my...

I guess it didn't register that you had a MORA 3 Pro rad...that thing is huge. 7.7kg (~17 lbs!) and 475 x 430 x 65mm.
I remember going through your sticky (thanks so much for it), and I remember this link to be especially helpful: http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=...

And there, I stumbled upon this chart:

Yeah I probably wouldn't go for a Hydro Copper either...
March 30, 2012 6:11:01 AM

Thanks for the replies !

About the Hydro copper cooler.
You are right, 4ryan6 and rubix_1011. I didn't think of the fact that they are assemled by workers on an assembly line. So it's very logical that you would get well and less than well assembled coolers. And as the table shows they are the worst performers.
Yes, I also read that they are from Swiftech.
So I'll definitely be on the lookout for reviews. And I'll avoid nickel plated ones and go for copper for all my blocks, as was advised on the sticky. As you say, it's better to mount the cooler yourself so you know it has been done correctly.

Hehehe, yes the rad is huge ... and heavy ! When I opened to box to have a look it felt like having a fat kid sitting on my lap. ^^
I think I read somewhere that it could handle 200W passively but I will try different settings. With all fans on, 5 or only 3. At different speeds and run stress tests to see how that works with performance vs noise.

Thank you, Lutfij. So I'll settle for these QDCs (not even a drop !). The length is not an issue since they will be outside the case between the case and the rad. That way I can easily lift the loop out of the case. And I'll try to get my hands on one of thoses chainmail gloves they use in slaughterhouses so I don't loose a finger. ^^

I read somewhere that EVGA, DFI and Biostar MBs are the best for overclocking. Do you guys agree ?

Do you know if new or revised CPU blocks will appear in the next few months ? I went for the Raystorm because in all the reviews I read it had the best performance and the least restriction.
But if an even better one shows up ... ^^
a c 78 K Overclocking
March 30, 2012 9:17:48 AM

the Vanilla Raystorm has a better performance than the copper version, restriction/thermal wise(which is minimal in dif) but for the price and looks its a winner in my books - the review is on martinsliquidlab.

DFI are out of the mobo making business for the mainstream market. They now make boards for commercial lineups...or so i think they call it. R.I.P DFI :/  however there are other options like Asus, EVGA, Asrock and one more i can't name

Revised blocks, dunno for sure - but they will come out with one if the makers think improvements are needed. But you won't notice 2~3 C of dif only by a fraction and most will be for aesthetic or merely cos the compression fittings went on really cramped while using on their blocks.
March 30, 2012 9:59:01 AM

For the Hydro Coppers, what would you check for to make sure the block had been applied properly?
March 30, 2012 11:00:55 AM

Lutfij, I didn't find the Vanilla Raystorm on martinsliquidlab (which is now in my favorites ^^) or on google. Did you mean the Rasa ?

I will go with an EVGA MB. I heard they often use those for the insane liquid nitrogen OCs. So it should be good enough. ^^

Devastater6194, I think the only way would be to take it apart and check for yourself.
Or comparing it's performance to other Hydro Coppers but that might be a bit costly.
a c 78 K Overclocking
March 30, 2012 11:21:25 AM

nope the original Raystorm in black/

Gigabyte have a OC vrsion of the X79 board - i think its the UD7 its in an orange black theme and they are designed from the ground up, but then again - they can be used for LN2/cascade setups.

http://martinsliquidlab.org/
on the left hand side, you'll see a list and there is the Raystorm (not the copper raystorm) plus a whole lot of Blocks. Take the time to soak it all into your thinking muscle :p 

Your welcome, btw its the DT 5NOZ and not D6.
March 30, 2012 12:06:24 PM

I just read the DT 5NOZ review. As good thermaly as the Raystorm but far less restrictive ! If it had a copper top, it would be perfect (in my eyes).

On the other hand, you can get a white top. And since I was thinking of using white tubes with black fittings, it would fit in nicely ...

So now I will have to choose between the Raystorm copper and the DT 5NOZ. One has a copper top, the other is less restrictive ... Hmmmm ...

But I have not yet made up my mind about tubing color. White, black and silver plain tubes look really nice. The colored transparent ones are not bad either. Btw, I will not use any dye in the coolant, I have read many times it could be a mess after a while.

What do you guys think would look best ?
a b K Overclocking
March 30, 2012 2:19:27 PM

If I were buying a performance board, I'd look at Asus' ROG Series as well as the high-end Gigabyte boards (UD5-UD9 generally).

EVGA's still good and I would do business with them any day, but after X58 their motherboard team went to Sapphire. I don't think it's affected their products in any way, but it explains why their P67 boards were so late to the market.
a c 225 K Overclocking
March 30, 2012 3:49:26 PM

Devastater6194 said:
For the Hydro Coppers, what would you check for to make sure the block had been applied properly?


First off, Sorry for the thread Hi-Jack OP.

You should never pull the block to inspect it, if you do not have on hand what may need to be replaced.

If the water block requires thermal pads on the memory you do not reuse those, you replace them, it will require thicker thermal pads on the voltage regulators and you do not reuse those either, you replace them.

So you have to have on hand what you may need to replace before pulling the water block to inspect the contact, most common is the GPU contact is sometimes done with pre-applied solid melting type TIM, (An assembly line favorite), which usually always leaves too think of an application layer.

Some blocks are just not machined to allow using thermal compound on the memory chips because the gap between the memory chips and the water block contact is too great to be filled with thermal compound, the blocks that are capable of being installed just using the thermal compound on the memory chips are clearly advertised as being capable of that application.

So what to check for is the GPU contact footprint inspection, the better the contact the less thermal compound is needed, you only want the imperfections filled between the two mating surfaces, it does not need to be squished out everywhere, less is best!

Make sure if the thermal pads are required they are making good contact, they are properly cut to size, the imprints on the thermal pads will reveal how well they are making contact.

If there is any possibility at all of replacing the pads on the memory chips with a thermal compound, a trial fitting visual inspection should reveal whether it would be possible or not, I do have a personal recommendation of a thermal compound to use in that situation.

When I did the Thermal Roundup, one TIM stood out above all the rest, it is thicker, spreads fantastic, and one of the best performers, and although I have an entire box of thermal compounds to choose from after doing the Thermal Roundup, I use THIS, IMO the best Thermal Compound I have ever used.

Once again Sorry OP, but some of this information may very well benefit you also. Ryan



March 31, 2012 1:20:55 AM

Everyone should read what 4ryan6 says, He has a thread about WC under room temperature, So he knows what he is talking about,

I have a Asus ROG MB now. The Rampage Extreme II, Its perfect for OCing a i7 920 to 4,1 Ghz, My i7 is at 3,8 Ghz now (cnps10X cooler)

So I want to change the MB this time, I have been told that the Asus ROG MBs are good but are loaded with plenty of useless stuff/features. EVGA seems the way to go ... but who knows. I just want a very good 7 series MB. Or maybe Biostar ,,,

Anyway I'll get a IB i7 3770K


a b K Overclocking
March 31, 2012 7:09:58 AM

well just how far do you plan to go with your water cooling system, you seem to be interested with both style, and efficacy. can't say that this is a bad approach, at least it will look nice when it is done, mine's not much to look at but it's efficient at cooling the system. I have a fully water cooled system that I started up with the swiftech q-power tower, and added from there. Northbridge, Southbridge, drive chip, memory, processor caps, cpu, video card, hard drives, and power supply, there are two rads, and a reservoir, all on the case but not in it. it really looks like hell, but it is a cool running machine around 100 F at idol. never seen it get above 180 F even with a little o-clocking, but I also never play for more than 2HR's at a time, because I also know that it will get hot. had it professionally tested once for two weeks, and they recorded temps of 193 F on the video after 4HR's of testing nonstop. I know you can do slight o-clocking with water cooling but the real advantage of water cooling a system is the prolonging of the life of your hardware. personally I never cared about how it looked just how well did it work I like the compression fittings because I have had issues with the barb fittings leaking after a couple of years when the tubing started to get hard or stiff in reality it was breaking down on a molecular level the anti kink tubing takes longer for this effect to start around 5 years but the chemical resistant tubing well I don't know it hasn't happened yet you might won't to thank about a larger pump but space may be a issue for you as well and as long as the system doesn't get larger it won't become a problem.
a b K Overclocking
March 31, 2012 5:22:39 PM

Quote:
...but it is a cool running machine around 100 F at idol...

...never seen it get above 180 F even with a little o-clocking, but I also never play for more than 2HR's at a time, because I also know that it will get hot...

...had it professionally tested once for two weeks, and they recorded temps of 193 F on the video after 4HR's of testing nonstop...

I'm assuming you're reading all of these temps from the GPU, because they're high enough that you could kill your system.

37C idle is a bit high for a good system [it's warm here and I idle at 25C on my GPU with low power fans (I switched fans for those who know my setup)], but considering you have everything in your loop it makes sense. Not saying that's good though.

82.2C (180F) is dangerously high for a good loop. 89.4C (193F) would be unacceptable to almost everybody here and is dangerous for the GPU and other components. Higher component temps means that more heat is being input to the loop than is being dissipated from it, and the fact that the temps still go up over time is another indicator of that. Eventually your system will heat up too far and either crash to protect itself or you'll physically damage the components.

I wouldn't say that your system is efficient or that it works. These temps are worse then a bad air cooler.
a b K Overclocking
March 31, 2012 5:30:47 PM

jankeke said:

I have a Asus ROG MB now. The Rampage Extreme II, Its perfect for OCing a i7 920 to 4,1 Ghz, My i7 is at 3,8 Ghz now (cnps10X cooler)

So I want to change the MB this time, I have been told that the Asus ROG MBs are good but are loaded with plenty of useless stuff/features. EVGA seems the way to go ... but who knows. I just want a very good 7 series MB. Or maybe Biostar ,,,


I personally wouldn't buy Biostar with my own money (don't know enough about them and their products, and the reviews I read on their midrange stuff is meh).

For high-end boards, I would be looking at Asus ROG (or just a regular Asus), Gigabyte (although they don't have a high-end Z68 board out, so who knows if they'll have a good Z77 board), ASRock and EVGA in the high-end stuff. Although you get a lot of not-necessarily-useful features, the real things you want to look at are the types of capacitors, the power phases/protection, etc. Basically the small things that make OCing safer and better if you're really looking to push the limits.

I had the EVGA X58 FTW3 and it had some pretty nice features like an LCD for boot codes/CPU temps, and hard buttons on the mobo for power/reset (great for troubleshooting since you don't need the case buttons plugged in). Even though I paid ~$100 more for that board, the small things won me over.
a c 78 K Overclocking
March 31, 2012 6:33:55 PM

just arrived, wow i did miss alot!

Quote:
89.4C
[:lutfij:2] thas a lot, considering you have water running through your loop!

for high OC's BIOSTAR are a no no. EVGA seem to have won alot of hearts down state side...and some people in my country :) 
a b K Overclocking
April 1, 2012 3:03:57 AM

1970903,20,533864 said:
Quote:
...but it is a cool running machine around 100 F at idol...

...never seen it get above 180 F even with a little o-clocking, but I also never play for more than 2HR's at a time, because I also know that it will get hot...

...had it professionally tested once for two weeks, and they recorded temps of 193 F on the video after 4HR's of testing nonstop...

I'm assuming you're reading all of these temps from the GPU, because they're high enough that you could kill your system.

37C idle is a bit high for a good system [it's warm here and I idle at 25C on my GPU with low power fans (I switched fans for those who know my setup)], but considering you have everything in your loop it makes sense. Not saying that's good though.

82.2C (180F) is dangerously high for a good loop. 89.4C (193F) would be unacceptable to almost everybody here and is dangerous for the GPU and other components. Higher component temps means that more heat is being input to the loop than is being dissipated from it, and the fact that the temps still go up over time is another indicator of that. Eventually your system will heat up too far and either crash to protect itself or you'll physically damage the components.

I wouldn't say that your system is efficient or that it works. These temps are worse then a bad air cooler.[/quot

oh yea, your right I keep a eye on my system temps, but if I don't push the video card while playing games. I can play at low res. 1248 x 1024 and temps hover around 160 F - 165 F, I don't think that's too high or bad the system. system temps will be around 140 F - 145 F this is a big improvement over air cooling, and I couldn't clock it at all, for any extended period of time. now I just leave it clocked all the time. at 15 % it's not a lot, but to go any higher I would need a phase change system.
April 4, 2012 11:29:49 AM

Sorry for the delay, I am on holidays now. ^^

@ toolmaker_03

Yes, I want an efficient and good looking loop. ^^
Like the others said your temps look quite high for a WC loop. Are the block mounted correctly ? Do they have good contact with the CPU, GPU etc ? Did you check you use the right inlets and outlets on you blocks ?

@ boiler1990

OK so no BIOSTAR for me. I have a Asus ROG on my current rig (Rampage 2 Extreme), It is very good but I was told it has too much fancy stuff that aren't useful, which is nothing bad in it self. I managed to OC my old i7 920 (one of the very first) to 4,1 Ghz on air cooling,

So I will go for a high end EVGA this time since I only heard very positive things about it for OC.

a c 324 K Overclocking
April 4, 2012 5:38:24 PM

@toolmaker- your temps are questionably high.

165 fahrenheit is equal to 73.89 celsius

Your CPU or GPU shouldn't be reading close to these temps with watercooling...at most, maybe low 50's Celsius on CPU at 100% load with Intel Burn Test and mid 40's Celsius on GPUs at 100% load.
a b K Overclocking
April 4, 2012 7:28:15 PM

understand that this system stays clocked. so when I say with a little over clocking I mean that I am playing the games this way as well, but your right if it wasn't over clocked at all I don't believe the temps would rise to the heights that I have seen. but I don't mind about the temps getting up there that jest means that I am really pushing this system, and that to me, is a thrill all on its own.
a b K Overclocking
April 4, 2012 7:29:28 PM

toolmaker_03 said:
understand that this system stays clocked. so when I say with a little over clocking I mean that I am playing the games this way as well, but your right if it wasn't over clocked at all I don't believe the temps would rise to the heights that I have seen. but I don't mind about the temps getting up there that jest means that I am really pushing this system, and that to me, is a thrill all on its own.


If your system had the appropriate rad space, you wouldn't be near those temps even with the OC. That's what we're saying.
a c 324 K Overclocking
April 4, 2012 7:44:29 PM

toolmaker_03 said:
understand that this system stays clocked. so when I say with a little over clocking I mean that I am playing the games this way as well, but your right if it wasn't over clocked at all I don't believe the temps would rise to the heights that I have seen. but I don't mind about the temps getting up there that jest means that I am really pushing this system, and that to me, is a thrill all on its own.


This means your delta-T isn't correct for your loop.
a b K Overclocking
April 4, 2012 8:04:06 PM

oh, now I understand, just kidding. your right, but this unit has the stock rad, one small rad, and a double stack, not to mention the 240 reservoir. it holds over a gallon of water as it is, shore I could go with more, I do need to replace one of the fans on the double stack rad as only one fan is operational on it. so it is time for some upgrades.
a c 324 K Overclocking
April 4, 2012 8:16:57 PM

What is a double stack? Also, holding a gallon of water only means it takes longer for your loop to reach working equilibrium but doesn't contribute to any additional cooling ability once it reaches it.

Quote:
not to mention the 240 reservoir


Not sure I follow you here.
a b K Overclocking
April 4, 2012 8:57:49 PM

bits power tank z- multi 250 not 240 sorry about that and a double stack is the mcr 220 quit power dual 120 radiator
a c 324 K Overclocking
April 4, 2012 9:01:34 PM

Ah, gotcha. I have the smaller Multi-z, the 40 I believe...love it.
!