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ATI Redwood Whats next ? Rumour/speculation/facts

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a c 130 U Graphics card
November 22, 2009 1:09:32 PM

Just wondering if there is any info out there on what to expect on this card ? I have been reading reports from the web but unsurprisingly some of it clashes and some is saying one thing and the other something different.
So if any of our more connected members can/would clarify the position i would be grateful.
For instance will these cards be reduced Juniper cards or will there be a refresh etc ?
The 192 bit bus rumour has reared its head again with some reports saying less SP's but larger bus ?
Most seem to agree AMD will stay on a 40nm process untill 2011 with the new archetecture cards on a 32nm process coming then, but thats a while away yet.

Thanks
Mactronix
a b U Graphics card
November 22, 2009 2:44:31 PM

Well it'll be called 5670 and have no pci-e connector requirement, come with dx11 and kill the gts240. That much is a given.

I don't see any possibility of a higher bus with less SP's, that doesn't make any sense at all. A lower bus may be a possibility though.
November 22, 2009 3:36:34 PM

There's no info out currently.

My guess would be a 128bit bus, GDDR3 or <1000MHZ GDDR5, 320 - 480 SPs.
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a b U Graphics card
November 22, 2009 4:14:49 PM

Ive heard that the gddr3 will either be skipped altogether, or be on only the lowest end cards, and those may be seller specific, but GDDR5 looks like minimums to me, with small bus, even a 64 at low end
a c 130 U Graphics card
November 22, 2009 4:20:44 PM

Yes i did read somewhere that the low end may be 64 bit, and i also read amoungst the other stuff that the redwood would have 512mb of memory not 1024.
AMD look to be drawing some serious lines here with what they see as usable or needed as far as memory amounts and bandwidth is concerned. Its as if they are trying their hardest to cut out crossover parts, thats assuming these rumours are true that is.
Oh well just keep waiting and looking i guess.

Mactronix

a b U Graphics card
November 22, 2009 4:45:12 PM

You have to understand, with products like bobcat coming, the low end is dead
a b U Graphics card
November 22, 2009 8:10:54 PM

What I wish they would do is give the HD 5670 640 SP's, a 192-bit memory bus, and 1Gb GDDR5 all without needing an external power connector but that's just a dream xD
a c 130 U Graphics card
November 22, 2009 8:11:21 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
You have to understand, with products like bobcat coming, the low end is dead


I think you are a few years ahead of yourself there JD, bobcat isnt meant to be untill 2011, even then lots of people will still be running PC's that dont support the chips. AMD have a low end part for 2010 and after that who knows, but even the low end of the next gen will be an upgrade for some people, not to mention replacement cards for HTPC's that game a little bit as well. When the HD series of cards first came out there were plenty of older gaming systems that were converted to HTPC's, in my view thats a trend that can continue for some time to come.
I do agree that at some point in the not to distant future we wont need HTPC cards at all but untill these chips are released and we know what they can and cant do we wont know for sure when that will be.

Mactronix
a b U Graphics card
November 22, 2009 8:14:29 PM

And besides since (roughly) the 5870 = 2 4870s, 5770 = 4870, 5750 = 4850, and since some predictions are saying it'll be between the 4670 and 4770 then wouldn't it make sense for it to be about the same as the 4830?
a c 130 U Graphics card
November 22, 2009 8:21:07 PM

edeawillrule said:
What I wish they would do is give the HD 5670 640 SP's, a 192-bit memory bus, and 1Gb GDDR5 all without needing an external power connector but that's just a dream xD


Thats similar to one of the rumours that i have seen, It goes something along the lines that it was a shelved part maybe meant to be Juniper at first but they decided to shelve it. It would have been 960 SP's and 192 bit. Guess it wont happen as that would be above the Juniper and a bit too close to the 5850. Probably why it got canned.

Mactronix
a b U Graphics card
November 23, 2009 12:04:24 AM

GFs roadmap shows 32 in qtr 3 or 4, less than a year from now, just doing a lil prognosticating here.
I wouldnt be surprised to see them (bobcat) next year,late
November 23, 2009 8:12:56 AM

There will also be Radeon HD 5830 and Radeon HD 5890.
a b U Graphics card
November 23, 2009 12:59:32 PM

Techno-boy said:
There will also be Radeon HD 5830 and Radeon HD 5890.


What does your crystal ball tell you about the NHL playoffs?

I think what you meant to say was:

"Based on the 4000 series, I think it is likely there will be a 5830 part to use up failed 5850s. ATI has stated that they will continue to use a 6 month refresh cycle, leading me to believe that a part called a 5890 (akin to the 4890) will be released some time around the end of Q1, to start of Q2."

More to the point, I'll be interested to see if the whole line gets a refresh this time as maybe people won't whine about a 5790 as much as the 5770.

I woudl not expect anything more than a 128bus on the 5670. Was there ever a case that a lower end part had a higher bus than the part above it in performance? Perhaps we will see a 192bit 5790 at the refresh time, but I think it is safe to say anything in the Redwood series is going to have less 'stuff' across the board compared to a 5750.

A DX 11 part, sligthly worse than the 4770, with no extra power required seems reasonable.
a c 130 U Graphics card
November 23, 2009 1:17:20 PM

Being completely selfish here but a 5790 with 960 Sp's and a 192 bit bus would fit my system really nicely :D . I guess all i can do is hope at this point.
I guess it depends where the performance ends up, what with driver improvements and all but wouldnt such a card mean they could get quite near to 5850 performance on a smaller chip, and as such the 5850 would then be EOL pretty quick ?
When i first read about the possability of a 192 bit card i must say it made a lot of sense to me personally, probably based on what i want more than what makes sense for the company.
As i said earlier though it does seem as if they are trying to draw clear lines between the cards performance and where they are in the line up, so for that reason while i would welcome such a card im not holding my breath.

Mactronix
a b U Graphics card
November 23, 2009 1:58:41 PM

mactronix said:
Being completely selfish here but a 5790 with 960 Sp's and a 192 bit bus would fit my system really nicely :D . I guess all i can do is hope at this point.
I guess it depends where the performance ends up, what with driver improvements and all but wouldnt such a card mean they could get quite near to 5850 performance on a smaller chip, and as such the 5850 would then be EOL pretty quick ?
When i first read about the possability of a 192 bit card i must say it made a lot of sense to me personally, probably based on what i want more than what makes sense for the company.
As i said earlier though it does seem as if they are trying to draw clear lines between the cards performance and where they are in the line up, so for that reason while i would welcome such a card im not holding my breath.

Mactronix


Yes, it woudl be closer to a 5850, but there is plenty of room between the 5770 and 5850 as it is. The specs you list are still a fair bit off the 1400/256 of a 5850. Also keep in mind that a 5790 won't be out until there is a refresh of the parts. If AMD does plan to refresh the 5770, it is likely we will see something like a 5860 as well.

I do believe there is far too lage of a gap between the 5770 and 5850. Which leads me to think they have planned from the begining either a space for a 5770 refresh or a 5830 to use dead 5850's, perhaps even both (though not at the same time).
November 23, 2009 2:45:34 PM

daedalus685 said:
What does your crystal ball tell you about the NHL playoffs?

I think what you meant to say was:

"Based on the 4000 series, I think it is likely there will be a 5830 part to use up failed 5850s. ATI has stated that they will continue to use a 6 month refresh cycle, leading me to believe that a part called a 5890 (akin to the 4890) will be released some time around the end of Q1, to start of Q2."

More to the point, I'll be interested to see if the whole line gets a refresh this time as maybe people won't whine about a 5790 as much as the 5770.

I woudl not expect anything more than a 128bus on the 5670. Was there ever a case that a lower end part had a higher bus than the part above it in performance? Perhaps we will see a 192bit 5790 at the refresh time, but I think it is safe to say anything in the Redwood series is going to have less 'stuff' across the board compared to a 5750.

A DX 11 part, sligthly worse than the 4770, with no extra power required seems reasonable.


Yes, it is likely that there would be Radeon HD 5830 and HD 5890. When did my crystal ball go wrong? You had just twisted my crystal ball badly. :ouch: 

Well, take a look at these for instance:

http://www.donanimhaber.com/ATi_HD_5870_baslangic_HD_58...

http://www.amdzone.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=527&p=168...


It is more about marketing than just refreshing their lineups of video cards. There is a good reason to believe that AMD/ATI would fill the gap in the market by making more Radeon HD 5000 series video cards with different price per performance level than the current ones so the customers would have more option to choose. Maybe "Refreshed" isn't the right word to use but "marketing" is the better word to use. ATI wanted to offer different lineups of video cards as many as they can to customers. You cannot compare the release time of HD 4000 series with HD 5000 series and AMD/ATI already learned their mistake for not releasing HD 4850 X2 in time as well as HD 4770, HD 4890. Radeon HD 5000 series has nothing to do with the old HD 4000 series so forget about HD 4000 series for goodness sake. I wasn't even talking about HD 4890. Many people were already talking about Radeon HD 5890 in many forums so it is normal for me to mention about it and AMD official documents had already mentioned about Radeon HD 5890, the fastest single GPU by ATI which would be like ATI's weapon in response to NVIDIA's GT300. :) 

I think that Radeon HD 5830 would be a sweeter spot for a budget gamer than Radeon HD 5770 but unfortunately the desktop version is not yet available for the moment. However there is Broadway-LP: Mobility Radeon HD 5830 (for notebook PCs). So.... it makes more sense to believe that ATI would call it as Radeon HD 5830 than Radeon HD 5790. Anyway, it is possible that there might also be HD 5790 in the works too, who knows...

Actually, I am waiting to buy Radeon HD 5890 myself... :sol: 

Well, looks like nothing is wrong with my crystal ball after all. Lol! :D 
a b U Graphics card
November 23, 2009 3:03:40 PM

I'm havign hard time figuring out what you are on about Techno-boy. While I would be shocked if AMD does not release a 5890 and somethig to fit between the 5770 and 5850 (whether that is a refreshed 5770 or a gimped 5850) this does not make it certain.

The only "facts" one has to go on is the expected refresh cycle, and history. References or it didn't happen, as it were.

That being said, I certainly can and will refer to the 4000 series, as it is the only historical reason to beleive the refresh will be called a 5890 anyway. You migh want to refresh yourself on what akin means. I was not talking about the 4890.. but the fact that we had a 4870+20, we are likely to get a 5870+20... History plays a big role in determining a companies strategy. Using it we can often determine what teh releases will be like, if not the actual specs of a card.

The only info about the refreshed, low binned, etc. parts are based on people lookign at teh history of what AMD is likely to do. There is no actual legitimate information out yet.

Certainly it is possible there is a 5890 coming that is not a refresh, but a card desinged to be released to compete with the fermi based cards. I would doubt this though, if we do see a 5890 it will fit in the 6month refresh cycle they have been using for the past couple of generation.

THe mobility parts cannot be compared directly to teh desktop parts. If there is a 5830 it will be becasue there were enough chips that work but do not cut it as 5850s to make it worth sellign them as a low bin. Given teh yields this may not be for a while. If there are not enough of these parts tehy might forget it entirely. They plan to do this as it allows more chips to be sold, but this does not mean it is certain to happen. On teh same token, whether teh release teh 5770 refresh or teh 5830 may depend on these low bin numbers. There is certainly room for another card between the 5770 and 5850, but two might be tight unless the 5850 gets a refresh as well.

Every company will plan for every outcome. There are probably official AMD documents somewhere talking about a 5865 (or 5870LE as it were) in the event they have many cores that just don't quite make it to the 5870 targets.. Does not mean it is so.
November 23, 2009 3:14:21 PM

daedalus685 said:
I'm havign hard time figuring out what you are on about Techno-boy. While I would be shocked if AMD does not release a 5890 or somethig to fit between the 5770 and 5850 (whether that is a refreshed 5770 or a gimped 5850) this does not make it certain.

The only "facts" one has to go on is the expected refresh cycle, and history. References or it didn't happen, as it were.

That being said, I certainly can and will refer to the 4000 series, as it is the only historical reason to beleive the refresh will be called a 5890 anyway. You migh want to refresh yourself on what akin means. I was not talking about the 4890.. but the fact that we had a 4870+20, we are likely to get a 5870+20... History plays a big role in determining a companies strategy. Using it we can often determine what teh releases will be like, if not the actual specs of a card.

The only info about the refreshed, low binned, etc. parts are based on people lookign at teh history of what AMD is likely to do. There is no actual legitimate information out yet.

Certainly it is possible there is a 5890 coming that is not a refresh, but a card desinged to be released to compete with the fermi based cards. I would doubt this though, if we do see a 5890 it will fit in the 6month refresh cycle they have been using for the past couple of generation.


What is it you don't understand about what i posted?

Well I bet ATI would fill those gaps but it is just a matter of time. We also have to wait for TSMC to fix the 40nm yields issue.

HD 5890 might not even be a refresh of HD 5870 because it might uses different core from HD 5870 so refresh might not be a correct word to use.

Wanna talk History? Well, history says that HD 4890 uses RV790 core instead of RV770 core so it is more than just a refresh of HD 4870 because it has different core architecture and it is not a super overclocked RV770 to begin with. :heink: 
a c 130 U Graphics card
November 23, 2009 3:17:21 PM

Wasnt the 4890 a bit of an exception though ? Didnt it only come about due to the need for something that bit quicker than the 4870 ? I cant remember the exact facts, was it down to competition or i think i remember something about fixing something that was effecting the clocks or some such ? but im sure it wasnt usual to do what they did.
The 5870 may not lend itself to what they did with the 4870, i dont know just speculating.
As daedalus685 said i guess there is room between 5770 and 5850 for something but would they really need a 5890 ? Guess it depends if its viable and what Nvidia do.
As far as i am concerned a forum is a forum is a forum, dosent matter if it says AMD or ATI at the top its all just conjecture untill the parts hit the shelves.

Mactronix
November 23, 2009 3:27:05 PM

daedalus685 said:
THe mobility parts cannot be compared directly to teh desktop parts.


I wasn't comparing the mobility parts to the desktop parts but I was talking about the marketing naming scheme of the desktop parts VS the mobility parts in which it is reasonable to believe that there might be Radeon HD 5830 for desktop PCs or they would call it as Radeon HD 5830 for the desktop version since there is already the mobility version called as Mobility Radeon HD 5830 codenamed Broadway-LP.

Anyway, most of the stuff we talk is still based on speculation than official facts since that is part of what this thread is all about (speculations/rumors/facts).

hmmmm... just wondering about that ATI's official documents mentioning about Radeon HD 5890 but unfortunately it did not give much information about HD 5890. It was these companies' official documents that lead to rumors and speculations about what might be release in the future whether it is going to happen or not. Well, maybe it's human nature to talk about something that they don't see yet. :) 
a b U Graphics card
November 23, 2009 3:57:20 PM

Might look for a 5950 to compete with Fermi
!