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Experimental radiator \build log!!!

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a b K Overclocking
April 13, 2012 10:00:57 PM

well here are the radiators, my problem is the configuration of them, simply too many possibilities, so if you could find the time to give your opinions, I would really appreciate it.
I also need advice on a type of shroud for the radiators, the purpose is to inshore good air flow through the radiator.
and lastly how to attach the fans to the radiators?



all advice is welcome and thank you

a c 324 K Overclocking
April 13, 2012 10:14:44 PM

They look nice; what is the tubing ID size? The only thing that might limit performance is round tubing for more laminar instead of turbulent flow.

Where did you order those through or have them made?
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a c 190 K Overclocking
April 13, 2012 10:24:49 PM

Shiny!
Moto
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a b K Overclocking
April 13, 2012 11:08:22 PM

it's 1/4 in OD on the Rads
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a b K Overclocking
April 13, 2012 11:11:42 PM

rubix_1011 said:
They look nice; what is the tubing ID size? The only thing that might limit performance is round tubing for more laminar instead of turbulent flow.

Where did you order those through or have them made?



it's 1/4 in copper so I was planning to use 3/8 in OD 1/4 in ID plastic tubing what would you suggest?

Ebay $ 10
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a c 324 K Overclocking
April 14, 2012 12:34:52 AM

Might be rather restrictive; you might consider running 2 in parallel at a time, if so. How many do you plan on running in all...all of them?
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a b K Overclocking
April 14, 2012 1:28:01 AM

rubix_1011 said:
Might be rather restrictive; you might consider running 2 in parallel at a time, if so. How many do you plan on running in all...all of them?


I have 12 now, I didn't think that 6 was enough. so your saying 6 in parallel with 6, first split the main line coming in into two lines, than recombine after the radiators, as it travels back to the main case.
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a c 324 K Overclocking
April 14, 2012 1:35:04 AM

I'm still wondering how restrictive all those radiators will be in any configuration.

Remember, when a normal watercooling radiator has flow through it, the inlet tank collects the incoming water and then splits it to many parallel flowing channels, or tubes. It then flows into the end tank, 'around the corner' at that end and back through an equivalent number of channels before collecting in the outlet tank.

These radiators have a single path all the way through the rad, bending and twisting along a single channel. Then repeat several times more for as many you have in the setup.

It would be comparable to a 6 lane super highway and a single lane road, both trying to carry the exact same amount of traffic at the same speeds. The 6 lane superhighway will allow cars to move at high speeds along many parallel channels in the same direction. If you attempt to have the same amount of traffic on a single lane highway, there is a lot of restriction and all traffic is dependent on what is in front in order to progress.
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a b K Overclocking
April 14, 2012 1:35:08 AM

Might sound funny, but blow through one and see how hard it is to move air through them, then consider the pump will be trying to push water through that many. They look like the thermaltake rads.
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a b K Overclocking
April 14, 2012 1:56:30 AM

noob2222 said:
Might sound funny, but blow through one and see how hard it is to move air through them, then consider the pump will be trying to push water through that many. They look like the thermaltake rads.


so than your saying have the line split 12 times, 1 split for each rad than recombine after the rads back to 1 line.
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a c 324 K Overclocking
April 14, 2012 2:01:13 AM

You can try, but your flow will drop quite a bit. However, this will also mean your restriction will be far lower as a result.

What pump are you going to use?
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a b K Overclocking
April 14, 2012 2:24:13 AM

Splitting will definately help, how many will be trial and error. Those rads are usually quite effifient, id suggest trying 6 first.
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a b K Overclocking
April 14, 2012 3:29:44 AM

rubix_1011 said:
You can try, but your flow will drop quite a bit. However, this will also mean your restriction will be far lower as a result.

What pump are you going to use?


swiftech mcw 655
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a b K Overclocking
April 14, 2012 4:27:21 AM

ok, I went and did the math, and I would need 4 to get equivalent cubic inch as a 3/8 in ID line. so I built a couple of proto types to see how it would flow, and putting 5 rads together gives the same return pressure as a single 3/8 in ID line. putting 6 rads together it drops a little bit, but at 4 its worse. go figure.
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a b K Overclocking
April 14, 2012 11:46:50 AM

Quote:
Just thinking, go with the gigabyte OC edition X58 board... orange with those copper rads would be something :) 


I have been discussing that very same topic, sort of. but this is going on a crosshair II formula MB, but still a lot of copper on this board to.
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a b K Overclocking
April 14, 2012 12:22:41 PM

Quote:
Very true :) 



hay, would happen to know about fluid dynamics, or the physics surrounding that topic.
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a c 78 K Overclocking
April 15, 2012 3:51:18 AM

did anyone notice that the openings of the radiator is on its side and not on its face - this would cause the channel of airflow to be quiet limited ... or maybe attach 3 rad ontop of each other and have a fan attached to its side.

those rads look - coppery!
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a b K Overclocking
April 15, 2012 4:37:04 AM

Lutfij said:
did anyone notice that the openings of the radiator is on its side and not on its face - this would cause the channel of airflow to be quiet limited ... or maybe attach 3 rad ontop of each other and have a fan attached to its side.

those rads look - coppery!


thats a good idea, sense it looks like I will be paralleling 6 on 6 maybe even 6 high with 2 fans. but how to attach the fans?
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a c 78 K Overclocking
April 15, 2012 5:07:09 AM

working with copper is quiet tricky as its maliable and can also stain cos of the oils your skin produce. attaching it will be a challenge. zipties maybe but thas my suggestion - other will def have a better scope of delivery.
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a b K Overclocking
April 15, 2012 5:16:36 AM

Lutfij said:
working with copper is quiet tricky as its maliable and can also stain cos of the oils your skin produce. attaching it will be a challenge. zipties maybe but thas my suggestion - other will def have a better scope of delivery.


I am considering a liquid rubber to bond the fan frames directly to the radiators, I will need to build a form to keep the rubber from running while it hardens do you have any suggestions on types of rubber i could use or good material for the frames that the rubber won't bond to?
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a c 78 K Overclocking
April 15, 2012 5:19:58 AM

i dunno, acrylic maybe but liquid rubber aint a good idea, what will you do when the fans need to come off for cleaning, like i said before - the copper is malleable so will bend at the slightest tug/pressure/while prying the fans off.
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a b K Overclocking
April 15, 2012 5:31:11 AM

Lutfij said:
i dunno, acrylic maybe but liquid rubber aint a good idea, what will you do when the fans need to come off for cleaning, like i said before - the copper is malleable so will bend at the slightest tug/pressure/while prying the fans off.


my other idea is to make circles out of copper tubing jest large enough to catch the 4 corners of the fan, than soldering the circle to the radiators making a pop in fitting for the fans, no screws needed. than cutting rubber frames that fit the bottom of the fan frames. than attaching that to the fans with some silicone, easy to remove later so I can replace the fans. but hard to make, without crushing the copper tubing in the process, it's a tight turn.
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a b K Overclocking
April 15, 2012 5:35:44 AM

What is the purpose? I could not find it here.

Is it for a single CPU?

Keep in mind that radiators still need FANS to blow through them to be effective. I'm trying to visualize a setup that makes sense and I simply can't with 6 coolers.

If I was going to water-cool a CPU I'd likely use a Corsair H100 (2x120mm) with a supported case.

I think you will find this problem much more difficult than you thought, but I applaud you for trying.

(You may wish to invest in a rubber mat that prevents water from going on the floor.)
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a b K Overclocking
April 15, 2012 5:46:30 AM

photonboy said:
What is the purpose? I could not find it here.

Is it for a single CPU?

Keep in mind that radiators still need FANS to blow through them to be effective. I'm trying to visualize a setup that makes sense and I simply can't with 6 coolers.

If I was going to water-cool a CPU I'd likely use a Corsair H100 (2x120mm) with a supported case.

I think you will find this problem much more difficult than you thought, but I applaud you for trying.

(You may wish to invest in a rubber mat that prevents water from going on the floor.)


no this is for my completely water cooled system, I already have 3 normal radiators on this build, two double 120 mm rads and a 80 mm rad. this new build should give me a additional two, double 120 mm rads, for this build. and I thought that it would be more fun to build it his way, this time around. I have built plenty of typical systems in the past, and they all work fine. I am hoping that this one will to.
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a b K Overclocking
April 15, 2012 8:41:28 AM

so I have this innovate ehemi hpps plus, that I have been using for test purposes. I could add it to the loop, jest before the new radiators, in order to inshore good flow through the rest of the system, what do you guys thank.
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a b K Overclocking
April 15, 2012 6:37:21 PM

toolmaker_03 said:
hay, would happen to know about fluid dynamics, or the physics surrounding that topic.

I know enough to be dangerous, work on hydraulics a lot.

btw, here is a copper manifold already welded, considerably cheaper than the other I posted. although 1/2 to 3/8 would be better for this application, but gives you another idea how to do it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SiouxChief-65100-Copper-Manifol...
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a b K Overclocking
April 15, 2012 7:15:01 PM

noob2222 said:
I know enough to be dangerous, work on hydraulics a lot.

btw, here is a copper manifold already welded, considerably cheaper than the other I posted. although 1/2 to 3/8 would be better for this application, but gives you another idea how to do it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SiouxChief-65100-Copper-Manifol...


thanks that is almost exactly what I was building, but that was a lot easier, so I just bought it. thanks agene for letting know about it.
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a b K Overclocking
April 16, 2012 1:30:05 AM

ok, I know how you guys like pics, so here are a few of the first test. to show you what it is that I am seeing, this test is to show the pump pressure through a strait piece of tubing.


more to come shortly.
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a c 224 K Overclocking
April 16, 2012 1:47:28 AM

I have to hand it to you man you definitely love a challenge!

Moto would probably class you as crazier than I am! :)  (Well maybe not)

I think the manifold suggestions are on the money you'll need input and output manifolds, they will allow pressure equalization across all the radiators.

Exactly what type radiators are those, they kinda look like automotive heater cores?

I'm assuming they are all identical, what are their dimensions?
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a b K Overclocking
April 16, 2012 2:05:37 AM

4Ryan6 said:
I have to hand it to you man you definitely love a challenge!

Moto would probably class you as crazier than I am! :)  (Well maybe not)

I think the manifold suggestions are on the money you'll need input and output manifolds, they will allow pressure equalization across all the radiators.

Exactly what type radiators are those, they kinda look like automotive heater cores?

I'm assuming they are all identical, what are their dimensions?


120 mm x 80 mm x 28 mm (hxwxd)

a little smaller than that but i do not know what thay came out of

yes it does work here are some pics of my test prototype





and it works, with just a little loss of pressure.
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a c 78 K Overclocking
April 16, 2012 2:16:04 AM

its ALIVE!!! :wahoo: 
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a b K Overclocking
April 16, 2012 2:27:18 AM

Lutfij said:
its ALIVE!!! :wahoo: 


that's funny, :wahoo:  but I will have 2 copper manifolds for the final build. it's a lot of work, but it's worth it, I have learned more about fluid dynamics and the physics behind it this past week than I ever wanted to. but if you're not learning, than your just standing still.
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a c 224 K Overclocking
April 16, 2012 10:40:14 AM

The radiator design is a little odd for your airflow through the radiators, my first thoughts is to build a box to house them spaced at least a quarter inch apart, maybe even wider, since the 120 x 80 face is blocked stacking them and leaving an airflow gap between each one.

Thus the purpose of the box you wouldn't want the flat copper sides actually touching each other you want air to flow between those flat sides as well.

The reason I asked if they were heater cores is because heater cores are designed to remain hot and transfer the heat to the air, airflow is restricted through them so the air remains in the core longer picking up the heat from the fins.

You're after the reverse process but still transferring the heat to the air, not to heat the air but cool the radiator, so you'll have to find what type airflow low, med, or high, that best transfers the heat and cools the rads.
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a b K Overclocking
April 16, 2012 11:27:39 AM

one thing with those radiators, If you can line them up end to end (80mm side) looks like they should, you could do 3 fans and cover 4 radiators.
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a c 324 K Overclocking
April 16, 2012 2:43:43 PM

So the parallel splits worked pretty well? Good to hear...I was somewhat concerned about a serial series and restriction.

@Ry- I've been trying to place them as well, but they seem to be a little small for automotive heater cores, but maybe they are. Most heater cores I've ever seen are also mostly enclosed within a housing as well, and not with the fins being exposed as they are. Also, most are typically painted and are mostly brass or aluminum in structure. I've been curious where he got these and what they initially were designed for.
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a b K Overclocking
April 16, 2012 3:24:48 PM

rubix_1011 said:
So the parallel splits worked pretty well? Good to hear...I was somewhat concerned about a serial series and restriction.

@Ry- I've been trying to place them as well, but they seem to be a little small for automotive heater cores, but maybe they are. Most heater cores I've ever seen are also mostly enclosed within a housing as well, and not with the fins being exposed as they are. Also, most are typically painted and are mostly brass or aluminum in structure. I've been curious where he got these and what they initially were designed for.


I wish I knew as well, but I did buy them on eBay. but there was no discretion about where they came from, and yes that is the same thing I was thinking, there a little small for a car, but seem to work fine so far.
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a c 190 K Overclocking
April 16, 2012 3:55:34 PM

No part numbers/markings anywhere on them?
I see a milk carton campaign coming up,


few of those on telegraph poles and you'll know what they are in no time hehe
:p 
Moto
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a b K Overclocking
April 16, 2012 4:53:14 PM

well my fan specs for this are 1500 rpm to 3500 rpm, I believe that these are mid speed fans. the cfm is from 58 to 150 and that covers all the fans. there will be 8 fans total 4 on the case these are the 1500 rpm and 58 cfm fans. the ones in the case are 3500 rpm and 150 cfm I hope that this will be sufficient, I did not want it to be too loud. I do wont to still hear the games i am playing, with this turned up all the way, it won't be that loud.
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a b K Overclocking
April 18, 2012 8:51:55 AM

here you go I will be applying this to the inside of the case to lower the noise level of the fans in side

http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/echo_eliminator/art/b...

http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/echo_eliminator/wall_...

I put this stuff in all my cases to lessen the noise produced by the fans, I can't sleep if it is too noisy. I can't fit a lot of this stuff in the case with the mother board, but I get both the sides plates completely and a little on the front and back. with this build I can get all the way around the case hopefully making it real quiet, that's my plan any way. with black there will be a good contrast between the rads and the inside of the case, I thank I will paint the rads with a clear cote glow paint. the glow color is red thought it would look cool under a black light. question what do you thank, should I paint the tubing as well with a clear cote of glow paint, I was thinking about blue for the tubing. but i can't decide, maybe i should switch the order of the paint blue rads and the red for the tubing what to do???
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a b K Overclocking
April 18, 2012 11:14:35 AM

system it is a mix of these 3 products, for the people wondering what type of liquid I run through my loop.

http://barsproducts.com/catalog/view/18-cooling-system-...

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=74&pcid=10

http://www.peakauto.com/antifreeze-peak-global_lifetime...

since my system holds about 1 gallon of liquid total, I will put 3 times the directed amount of water wetter in it. and 1/4 the bottle of lubricant, this mixture keeps my system stable for about 1 year. I usually change out or flush the loop every 9 months. that way I get to it before anything could happen( EX: too much particulates in the system) any questions?
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a c 78 K Overclocking
April 18, 2012 11:26:54 AM

so you're increasing viscosity of the liquid to save yourself from maintaining a loop 3 months earlier. No offense mate, but distill+kill coil is all you'll need sans the water wetter and there's nothing lower in viscosity than distilled/pure distilled water.
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a c 224 K Overclocking
April 18, 2012 11:44:19 AM

Lutfij said:
so you're increasing viscosity of the liquid to save yourself from maintaining a loop 3 months earlier. No offense mate, but distill+kill coil is all you'll need sans the water wetter and there's nothing lower in viscosity than distilled/pure distilled water.


I have to agree, unless you'll be using an automotive water pump, that's not just overkill to the max, that is literally killing your cooling performance.

I have 8 times the water mass you do and I don't use any of those products.

No Offense, those products are just not necessary, and they are hurting your overall cooling performance.

Steam distilled water with some kind of critter killer is all you really need, for best thermal transfer cooling performance.
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a c 78 K Overclocking
April 18, 2012 11:56:27 AM

Quote:
that's not just overkill to the max, that is literally killing your cooling performance.
spoken by the overkill guru :)  no offence Ryan :) 

toolmaker is one of those oldschool/vinyl people who have grown up with watercooling when an aftermarket HSF was mandatory for a 100 MHz overclock...which is a good thing cos of experience, but there are some things that have advanced since then.

Quote:
Steam distilled water with some kind of critter killer is all you really need, for best thermal transfer cooling performance.
the wonderful thing is that toolmaker has an awesome chemistry setup for making distilled right off his household faucet :) 

Quote:
those products are just not necessary, and they are hurting your overall cooling performance.
+1 and the pump if i may add...
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a b K Overclocking
April 18, 2012 12:39:33 PM

ok guys, let me explain in short hand my reasoning when I was 16 I was working for a man they called the pizza man in the drag circles and together we built million dollar engines for race I did this for 3 years during this time I learned a lot about water systems and how they work but most importantly how to keep them clean this fact was reinforced years later with my 1987 ford pony had cerotic corrosion in the water system and then agene on my second build with wasn't mine but a friends so here is how it progressed when I first started building water cooling systems I used distilled water and water wetter for the loop I always changed my loop every 6 months he went 8 months and we had to clean the entire system because of mold like stuff in the system. well a year later the pump went out on my build, and it was a direct result of ware inside of the motor housing it had only been 3 years than 2 years later the same thing agene too much wear inside the motor housing this caused the propeller to drag and wear out the motor prematurely now with these added to the system my pumps last 5 years minimum I have another friend that has had one pump for 10 years and I don't half to clean my systems ever they stay clean so you tell me is it over kill or preventative maintenance I know that I have lowered the ability of the liquid to remove heat as quickly but it is not that much, I only found about a 8 degree F difference at idol and no difference with load temps, I don't thank that is a big trade off, a little more expense. but I would rather pay that, then replace a pump. keep in mind that I run my computers 24/7 nonstop except to clean out the dust, and flush the loop, that it. man does that sound harsh, if so I'm sorry, it's not meant to be, but that my thanking on why I do this. oh yea, what is my thinking, water wetter prevents cerotic corrosion, antifreeze prevents stuff from growing, and lube prevents premature wear on parts and preserves the system seals. ok I thank that I have covered every thing now.

don't get me wrong, I could go two years between changing's, the liquid will be cloudy, but the system will not be dirty ( meaning stuff sticking to the blocks enterer ) it's just what i have done to prevent damage to the system
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a b K Overclocking
April 18, 2012 2:31:37 PM

I also tested all of this stuff on a super socket 7 board, running for 4 years without changing the mix before the system was so full of metal platelets, that the pump slowed down. so I changed out the mix but shortly thereafter, the kids were playing with it, I thank they were 5 or 6 at the time, and they pulled one of the hoses out. with promptly ended my experiment, but I did learn what I wanted to from it, I had a theory so I tested it, that is just the way I am, I wouldn't suggest it if I hadn't, at the very lest I would say that I haven't tested it to know for shore.

and one more thing, I don't actually use a 50/50 pre mix. that was jest easier to explain, I use a 80 % distilled water to 20% antifreeze mix, but my friends just buy the 50/50 pre mix, because as they say, it's easier.
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a c 224 K Overclocking
April 18, 2012 3:36:33 PM

Lutfij said:
spoken by the overkill guru :)  no offence Ryan :) 


:lol:  None Taken! :lol: 
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a c 224 K Overclocking
April 18, 2012 3:54:23 PM

@toolmaker_03

Then you are fully aware the products you'll be using are designed for temperatures far greater than you should reach water cooling your computer, they are designed for covering much more metallic surface than a water cooling setup is in contact with.

The main reason they do not cool as well, is the engine thermostat is designed to hold that fluid in the engine block until it gets hot enough to transfer to the radiator, and that coolant will not have the heat absorbtion time, in a computer water cooling setup.

I totally appreciate your past learning base, but I would never use those products to cool my computer, additionally if you ever have a leak your animals could get to and they lap up that fluid! That's Bad!

But it's up to you, I'm just voicing my concerns.

That's it, and all I have to say regarding it. :) 
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a b K Overclocking
April 19, 2012 4:53:03 PM

here is a heater core I don't think that the little one is a heater core, but i don't know.

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