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Unbelievably bad review.

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a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 9:46:38 PM

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-5770-overclo...

Even for THG's usual bias this is just beyond anything that can be excused. Just look at that garbage there and tell me that THG isn't in Nvidia's pockets.
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 9:56:45 PM

Quote:
I'm assuming it doesn't praise Ati enough for you.

Every site on the net according to some folks is biased, usually when something contradicts their own bias.

Can you sum up for me what is wrong?



No 5850, 5870, 5970.

Using the last remnant which has horrific ATI issues (but still contributes to the overall fps totals of course).

The only review I've seen in months that has a gtx295 beating a 4870x2 in Far Cry 2.

That's just the start, I'm sure I can find plenty more - but I'll leave that up to you stranger.

Related resources
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 9:57:25 PM




So you are admitting that this was a pro nvidia article? Shouldn't that be noted in the article btw?
a c 196 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
November 24, 2009 10:08:01 PM

Some of the results seemed funky to me as well, but i dont think it was bias on the part of the reviewer, but instead preferences some programs show for nVidia vs ATI
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-5770-overclo...
A GTS250 beating every ATI card but the 4870x2 indicates that that benchmark has some obvious preference, and it might be best if it was left out in the future. Also something was definitely off with the HAWX results, the MSI GTX275 with no overclock should not be outperforming the GTX285 in the test by as much as it is in the bottom chart, even the additional memory doesnt explain it as there is a GTX260 with 898MB immediately below.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-5770-overclo...
Something about the results seemed funky, but i dont think its bias, but the fact that some programs obviously skew the result like last remnant.
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 10:10:50 PM

I'm happy to accept the odd strange occurence, mistake etc.

When THG continues to bench Last Remnant, does an overclocking review on 3 cards yet somehow manages to include the gtx 295 and gtx 285 while ignoring the fact that they are totally owned by newer, cheaper and superior hardware...then fabricates benchmarks when they can't even use those tactics...

...No I'm sorry, this is a bloody farce and it proof that this author and quite probably the whole of THG is being bought by Nvidia.
a c 271 U Graphics card
a c 171 Î Nvidia
November 24, 2009 10:19:05 PM

jennyh said:
the whole of THG is being bought by Nvidia.

Shhweeet! [:mousemonkey:3]
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 10:27:40 PM

I do find it interesting using a card thats as expensive as the next tier vs other cards. Mistake?
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 10:39:09 PM

Why not just read the bloody review and make up your mind based on that, not who brought it to your attention?

Or is that too much for you to figure out yourself?
November 24, 2009 10:51:33 PM

jennyh said:
So you are admitting that this was a pro nvidia article? Shouldn't that be noted in the article btw?


Absolutely not. It was a story written by another author in Germany. Who tested different games. Games that are available and played today (perhaps not by you, but data in multiple games is provided so that readers are able to choose what is most useful to them).

While I'm not going to argue bias with someone who uses an AMD badge as an avatar, I can assure the rest of the audience that we work closely with both ATI and Nvidia. We're equally interested in exploring DirectX 11 as we are gaming with GeForce 3D Vision, and we'll continue delivering the most balanced coverage possible.

In the mean-time, I'll touch base with the German author of this piece and ask him to participate in the feedback for that story to answer any questions related to test methodology.

Have a great Thanksgiving everyone,
Chris
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 10:54:39 PM

The other way around? When did that last happen btw? Give me ONE time that ever happened.

You aren't reading the review because *I* brought it to your attention? Why don't you do me, yourself and everyone else a favour and totally ignore my posts from now on? I won't miss your input believe me.
a c 130 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
November 24, 2009 10:55:03 PM

jennyh, I agree there's the possibility of some bias here. The chosen reviews, hell, even the cards, were completely off. An HD4890 losing to a GTS250? GTFO.

However, the wording looks to be fine. I didn't read any hinted remarks like I read in FUAD all the time, and it seemed alright.


Wrong choices? Definitely.
Bias? Possibly.
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 10:56:06 PM

TY Chris, you as well
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 10:59:15 PM

Quote:
Absolutely not. It was a story written by another author in Germany. Who tested different games. Games that are available and played today (perhaps not by you, but data in multiple games is provided so that readers are able to choose what is most useful to them).


What data? Let me guess - you aren't willing to share that data? How come nobody else is benching Last Remnant yet THG continues to?

How *do* you explain some of your results? Do you want me to trawl through 20 websites and show how your Far Cry 2 results are not within the industry standard?

Quote:
While I'm not going to argue bias with someone who uses an AMD badge as an avatar, I can assure the rest of the audience that we work closely with both ATI and Nvidia. We're equally interested in exploring DirectX 11 as we are gaming with GeForce 3D Vision, and we'll continue delivering the most balanced coverage possible.


And I guess all the negative feedback on this particular article is just the usual whinging from ATI avatar people right?

When are you going to understand that THG's benchmarks are the laughing stock of the entire industry, and ludicrous decision making like this one here is the reason why?

Quote:
In the mean-time, I'll touch base with the German author of this piece and ask him to participate in the feedback for that story to answer any questions related to test methodology.

Have a great Thanksgiving everyone,
Chris



Maybe you should ask him where he misplaced his 5-series ATI's too? Oh let me guess, we're having a shortage in Europe aren't we?

Stop defending this crap please!

Oh, happy thanksgiving btw - excuse my apparent rudeness it's just us backward Europeans don't celebrate it. :D 
November 24, 2009 11:01:31 PM

Mousemonkey said:
Shhweeet! [:mousemonkey:3]

be good nvidia has the moneyz to pay for pr, frankly any benchmark that isn't done via a benchmarking tool is bound to be a bit inconsistent, the inclusion of the last rem is odd as it obviously favors nvidia cards to a point that's it's an obvious bais and unless the game is popular it should be not used as a benchmark.
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 11:03:44 PM

+1 Izzy.

We need more people like you (I mean Nvidia sympathetic) people pointing out the more obvious aberrations.

This isn't about ATI vs Nvidia, it's about us, the general public being conned.
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 11:04:06 PM

It would be even better if the author were here answering a few questions.
I think having the EOLd parts represnting ATI, while not mentioning the cost of the 275, which is as exspensive as a 5850, which isnt EOLd deserves mention thruout the article.
If the author didnt have a 58xx series to work with, explain that, as well as the 275s costs, which does put it in another pricing category, namely the 5850
a c 130 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
November 24, 2009 11:05:37 PM

I noticed Crysis wasn't benchmarked, and that's the usual game that people go to check the performance of the top-cards.

a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 11:07:47 PM

This isnt an unusual request, as the authors used to venture the forums.
It would do best to help explain why we have what we have, as it did in the past.
a c 271 U Graphics card
a c 171 Î Nvidia
November 24, 2009 11:12:45 PM

IzzyCraft said:
be good nvidia has the moneyz to pay for pr, frankly any benchmark that isn't done via a benchmarking tool is bound to be a bit inconsistent, the inclusion of the last rem is odd as it obviously favors nvidia cards to a point that's it's an obvious bais and unless the game is popular it should be not used as a benchmark.


Hey, I just like the idea that Nvidia now 'own' THG considering how it was supposed to be Intel the other week!
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 11:17:52 PM

How can *any* article show Nvidia in such a positive light?


There is only one possibility - it is paid for by Nvidia. We know what the score is - Nvidia loses at every single price point yet somehow THG manages to manufacture benchmarks that make it appear the other way around.

You want to know how to sell overpriced crap when beaten on pure tech superiority? This is how to do it.

BUY the benchmarks, just like this.
November 24, 2009 11:23:29 PM

Mousemonkey said:
Hey, I just like the idea that Nvidia now 'own' THG considering how it was supposed to be Intel the other week!

Means you're going down in the world from intel to nvidia that's the wrong direction

jennyh said:
+1 Izzy.

We need more people like you (I mean Nvidia sympathetic) people pointing out the more obvious aberrations.

This isn't about ATI vs Nvidia, it's about us, the general public being conned.

I'm very nvidia bias in my own preference but i'm not going to blatantly lie to someone and myself in terms of what is best for others.
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
November 24, 2009 11:24:19 PM

The article benches cards that are eaily available right now. Cards that alot of new builders are considering because they can't get the 5850. The 5850 that went from 269.99 to 310.00, and still not easily available. So the cards in that test are cards gamers are buying RIGHT NOW. You can get a GTS 250 on sale at Best Buy right now for 129.99. People benefit from a article like this. Everyone excited to build a new computer and run in to unavailability of ATI's new offerings need data like this.
I don't agree with statements like :
"When are you going to understand that THG's benchmarks are the laughing stock of the entire industry, and ludicrous decision making like this one here is the reason why?
+
the whole of THG is being bought by Nvidia
There has been countless good reviews and praise for Radeon's 5 series cards. Never highlighting the negatives. But extolling the features that exist with the 5850,70 but not so much with the 5770,5750 until this article. Those cards do underperform for their current price/performance ratio (DX11, is a factor or a non factor right now).
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 11:24:36 PM

I think THG isnt bought, thats not happening here.
There are definately some problems here, and Id like to know what they are
If there wasnt any 58 series cards around, then mention its an incomplete article in this regard.
If the 1 card costs as much as the competitions next tier card, mention it, and include at least a link to that cards perf. etc
a c 271 U Graphics card
a c 171 Î Nvidia
November 24, 2009 11:35:29 PM

IzzyCraft said:
Means you're going down in the world from intel to nvidia that's the wrong direction


What the forward facing one?,yeah not being one you are used to I can see how that might confuse you.
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 11:35:52 PM

How is it possible to do a benchmark review which includes the 275, 285 and 295 yet doesn't include *any* of the 5850, 5870 or 5970.

All else considered, bias removed...how is that possible. How?? How the hell can you bench the top 3 Nvidia cards while ignoring the top 3 ATI cards? Give me one good reason, just one.
November 24, 2009 11:37:52 PM

5970 can be skipped simply because that's the only one i would believe they haven't had for a month else there really isn't much of a reason to skip the top cards from ATI esp when you have a 5770 in the mix.
a c 271 U Graphics card
a c 171 Î Nvidia
November 24, 2009 11:38:24 PM

Lack of availability?
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 11:40:48 PM

Mousemonkey said:
Lack of availability?


Yeah right, there are so few 5800's around that THG can't do a benchmark of it. :whistle: 
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 11:41:58 PM

IzzyCraft said:
5970 can be skipped simply because that's the only one i would believe they haven't had for a month else there really isn't much of a reason to skip the top cards from ATI esp when you have a 5770 in the mix.


I can just about accept the 5970 due to it *just* being released.

Starting to wonder if us Europeans are still living in caves, getting tech months later after reading this though.
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 11:43:49 PM

Then mention it, and why.
Then mention what this means in comparison to the articles findings, orr point to a former article?
a c 196 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
November 24, 2009 11:48:31 PM

Consider that the review was done in germany and that the availablity of the 58xx cards in the US sucks, so i cant imagine it would be any better in germany, likely significantly worse.

Chris if you could find out more about the testing method that would be great. I understand testing games like Last Remnant so that people have benchmark so see how the various cards would compare, its always nice to have the full spectrum of games covered, but i wouldnt have included it in the cumulative performance results at the end.

Like most statistics i guess it needs to fall onto the reader to relate the results to their needs rather than just running off the final graphs, but i like the fact that most of you guys account for issues in your reviews so im disappointed that this one did not, which while unfortunate, doesnt scream bias to me.
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 11:48:31 PM

If Nvidia are buying reviews then that's fine - however there are rules now that should make it clear.

We've seen AMD's 'advertorial' on the 4670. We haven't seen any from Nvidia though? Hmmm. I'm just wondering if laws are being broken now regarding this.
a c 271 U Graphics card
a c 171 Î Nvidia
November 24, 2009 11:51:35 PM

jennyh said:
Yeah right, there are so few 5800's around that THG can't do a benchmark of it. :whistle: 

Until the author of that article is dragged in so that they can explain themselves to you, I shall assume the the author did not have any 5 series cards other than the 5770 available to them that and the comment :-
Quote:
The real focus of this article is overclocking MSI’s GTX 275 and HD 4890. However, since we had a reference Radeon HD 5770 handy, we decided this would be a good opportunity to see how far we could push ATIs newest generation of mainstream cards.
of course.
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2009 11:55:59 PM

hunter315 said:
Consider that the review was done in germany and that the availablity of the 58xx cards in the US sucks, so i cant imagine it would be any better in germany, likely significantly worse.

Chris if you could find out more about the testing method that would be great. I understand testing games like Last Remnant so that people have benchmark so see how the various cards would compare, its always nice to have the full spectrum of games covered, but i wouldnt have included it in the cumulative performance results at the end.

Like most statistics i guess it needs to fall onto the reader to relate the results to their needs rather than just running off the final graphs, but i like the fact that most of you guys account for issues in your reviews so im disappointed that this one did not, which while unfortunate, doesnt scream bias to me.

I agree, it needs some clarification.
Itd does say
"Just bear in mind that you'll also pay more for overclocked versions of the most aggressive cards, so before you buy, make sure you aren't indeed paying for the higher-class card, too." http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-5770-overclo...
Unfortunately, it fails to mention the 5850 option here
a c 145 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
November 24, 2009 11:58:34 PM

i think that the article will lose its purpose if they include ATI 5800 series in the test...
a b U Graphics card
November 25, 2009 12:00:58 AM

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but all of these cards are in a price range of approximately $80 (with the GTX275 the most expensive). The 5800 cards are much more expensive, tipping the scales at ~$360, well beyond that of even the GTX275, let alone the relatively minuscule ~$180 of the HD5770. Clearly this is targeting the midrange market, not the high end.

Personally I think the GTX260 would have been better than the GTX275 for this particular article as it would have been more in line with the cost of the other two cards, but the 275 is not leaps and bounds faster (just leaps and bounds hotter...), so it's not a major issue.

NVIDIA do not buy reviews. AMD do not buy reviews (but they have done "advertorials" which is well within the bounds of legalities and perfectly fine as long as it's stated). No companies buy reviews.
a b U Graphics card
November 25, 2009 12:19:10 AM

Random...why am I looking at benchmarks showing a bunch of Nvidia cards, including the gtx 285 and gtx 295, and not seeing any 5800's?
a b U Graphics card
November 25, 2009 12:23:15 AM

I probably should have looked at the benchmarks rather than the title and some of the test setup :D 

It may very well be that the 5800 cards were impossible to get a hold of. The US and Asian reviewers seem to get preference with review samples, at least from my research.
a b U Graphics card
November 25, 2009 12:28:41 AM

Come on this is Germany not Kazakhstan lol. Us Europeans do actually get technology you know? :D 
a b U Graphics card
November 25, 2009 12:29:22 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
Doing a quick search
http://www.google.com/products?q=MSI+N275GTX+Lightning+...
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?sourceid=navclie...

Looks like theres cheaper prices on the 5850

I was just going off a quick search on Newegg (it seems to be the thing to do around here). I wasn't going to go off Australian prices because they are always high near launches and there's almost none of the cards available. In any case, only one of those places is selling the card anywhere near the price of the others. Also, those are current prices. We don't know when this review was started.
a b U Graphics card
November 25, 2009 12:31:52 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
but it doesnt matter about Germany here at all, this isnt for the German speaking public

Actually it is. If you check the German site, this review was published a month ago. There were no HD5800 cards when this review was done
a b U Graphics card
November 25, 2009 12:32:17 AM

I guess we're going to have to get the boys from Fab 1 to pay THG Germany HQ a visit. :D 
a b U Graphics card
November 25, 2009 12:32:54 AM

Yea, the 275 was probably more, and the 5850 was probably less heheh
a b U Graphics card
November 25, 2009 12:34:08 AM

randomizer said:
Actually it is. If you check the German site, this review was published a month ago. There were no HD5800 cards when this review was done


Ok this is starting to look plausible.

Surely a site of THG's stature should be preventing this sort of thing though? Or was this reviewer the only person on the planet who didn't know the 5800's were extremely imminent?

That just opens up other questions tbh Random. Also, there were 5800 cards a month ago...there were 5800's 2 months ago in fact, released 23rd september. ;) 
a b U Graphics card
November 25, 2009 12:34:25 AM

randomizer said:
Actually it is. If you check the German site, this review was published a month ago. There were no HD5800 cards when this review was done

Then getting this premptive old articles here deserves it I guess

WHHHHHOOOOOAAAHHH there heheh
Whered the 5770 numbers come from?
a b U Graphics card
November 25, 2009 12:37:41 AM

Quote:
Whered the 5770 numbers come from?


Good point. ;) 
a b U Graphics card
November 25, 2009 12:40:46 AM

Well we know one thing: The reviewer managed to get a hold of a review sample of the HD 5770, which was released after the 5800 cards. But the 5770 is not a flagship product, and flagship products are something you want reviewed on the sites that get the most traffic. This just so happens to be the US. If you notice, all the launch products are done by US reviewers, not the German or French ones.

EDIT: Oi, stop preempting my posts :fou: 
!