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H100 as pump/rad combo for water system

Last response: in Overclocking
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May 16, 2012 3:36:33 AM

what do you think about this idea?


1) remove the tubes from the H100

2) add a GPU water block

3) if necessary, add a reservoir (mostly for pressure equalization now that the system has been "cracked" and there may be expansion/contraction)

4) add 2 more fans so that the radiator is cooled in a dual push/pull configuration as opposed to the stock dual push or dual pull (stock comes with 2 fans instead of 4).

5) set the pump on the "full" setting and leave it there.




NOTES:

1) it will never be used to play video games. I mean that with sincerity. the person who is going to use this computer does not play video games.

2) it will only rarely be used for movies. maybe once a month at max.

3) it will never be overclocked

4) it will be used with a "stock" gtx-560 Ti (an eVGA "fpb" ); no overclock

5) it will be used with an i5-3570k




You might scoff at the flow rate of the pump, or you might say that the pump will burn out very quickly if left on "full" at all times.



there are definitely questions, and I will ultimately know the answers once I have tested the system.



I am wondering if anyone has any genuine advice on this matter.



and please, do not simply ASSUME that because the system is not branded, and advertised with enthusiast PC builders, that it is somehow guaranteed to fail.


Lets try to leave the branded, marketed, nonsense at the door. Please be subjective.




ADDITIONALLY:


EK or DD water block? People claim that the gtx-480 DD water block flows very well, but the GTX-560 ti version looks very different, so I doubt that they share much of their internal hydrodynamic design. I am unsure if the conclusions about preexisting Danger Den GPU blocks can be applied to the GTX-560 ti with much trust.

furthermore, the DD model does not have any water coverage over the memory or other silicon, but the EK model DOES have water coverage (the DD model simply has copper, but no acetal enclosed water chamber on that part of the waterblock).



ADDITIONALLY:


I am trying to build this system with simplicity in mind. I do not give a damn about visual aesthetics.


I need something that will serve the purpose of pressure equalization, as well as a method to allow air bubbles to escape from the system (DONT WORRY, I will allow the coolant to de-aerate before I fill it up, but air still comes out regardless).

I assume that the only real product that will achieve this goal is a reservoir, but if there is a "pressure relief valve," especially one that works both ways (for expansion or contraction), I would love to know about it.




Please let me know.


and before anyone points me to the NEWB faq, I have read it.

before anyone points me to the search function, I have tried it.
May 16, 2012 3:44:24 AM

Why not just mod the H100 directly to the GPU?

I'm using an antec 620 cpu cooler to cooler my gtx 580 right now.

You can go ghetto and mount it using zip-ties or buy a bracket from several people on OCN that make them. I paid $12 for my mounting bracket for the 620...not sure how much one would be for a h100.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1203528/official-nvidia-gpu-...


Edit: Wait...im reading what your using it for? Why would you ever need to watercooler a gpu that isnt running games. Movies even HD 1080p will use 20% of your GPU max. You will never be in a position that it'll get too hot to run. You don't even need a 560ti to run movies...a cheap $50 will be way more than enough.
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a c 150 K Overclocking
May 16, 2012 4:41:54 AM

You'd need moar rad space for a 3570k and 560ti...
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May 16, 2012 5:09:44 AM

@Bavman

the whole purpose is to cheaply and simply setup a water cooling system for the purpose of SILENCE, not performance/overclocking/gaming.


you may be confused as to why I would even use a mid level GPU for a person who never plays games and rarely watches movies, and never performs any of the other niche functions that require gpu power.


the simple answer is that the person who is paying wants a nice mid level discrete GPU.

the long answer is that I am building a "just in case you decide to try it out" and "will last for years and years and be compatible with software of the future" computer.




@amuffin


you think 240mm radiator cannot handle ~100 watts of cooling on a continuous basis, and max 200 watts on a peak basis?


I will reiterate:

no games ever

minimal movies, most of which will be handled by the CPU anyway



YES. i know that the Ivy Bridge i5 runs hotter. But it runs hotter by 5 degrees celcius at TDP, NOT like 20 degrees.


furthermore:


what is the ultimate benefit of water over air?


when your CPU peaks, the temperature does not change appreciable because the heat capacity of water allows for lots of heat to be absorbed before the temperature changes much.


my point is that if he spikes the CPU and GPU over the course of 1 hour during which he is sitting there at the computer, but then gets up and leaves and the system then idles for many hours....

water cooling will preven the system temperature from increasing to a temperature that is barely in equilibrium.



that would only happen if he was doing hardcore video encoding, or running 10 hour long physics simulations, or playing video games for hours at a time.


he does not do this.


therefore, concerns over long term load is nonexistent.



I mean this with all sincerity. the guy is my older brother. I know his usage profile.


the most stringent use of his resources would be 1 hour in photoshop, where he would spend most of the time dicking around trying to figure out what to do, and the remainder doing something simple.
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a c 150 K Overclocking
May 16, 2012 5:15:48 AM

If you are just watching movies, no point of watercooling or an i5 or the 560ti.

Think i3 and radeon 6450.
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May 16, 2012 5:20:52 AM

@Bavman

BTW, thats actually not a bad idea. simply buy 2 individual corsair H80s (or equivalent) and use one of them for the GPU, and the other for the CPU.

its actually an excellent idea.

seriously, those systems are designed to cool AMD systems and older Intel systems that generate well over 150 watts of heat, which puts them directly in the same category as most stock clock discrete graphics cards.(150-225 watts TDP for pretty much any single card system)

note: yes, I realize that I am comparing electrical power consumption to thermal energy dissipation. while the two measures may not describe identical systems, they are most certainly RELATED. at the very least, any system that consumes XXX watts of electrical power cannot DISSIPATE >XXX watts of thermal power.

its a useful (simple) "back of the envelope" way of estimating the scale of the cooling system required.

I was always under the impression that with adequate airflow, a 240 mm (240mmx120mm sometimes colloquially referred to as "240mm" despite being rectangular) radiator of standard modern design could dissipate somewhere between 150 to 200 watts of heat, as a general rule of thumb.


With a push/pull system operating on both of the radiators, this might actually be the best bet. its such an obvious solution, I'm glad you suggested it.

BUTTTTT:


the end goal here is silence. the current system I am designing has 5 moving parts:

1 pump in the corsair H100 cpu water block
4 fans


if I did what you suggested I would have 6 moving parts:

2 pumps in 2 separate corsair H80 (or equivalent) water blocks
4 fans


technically there might end up being a few dB of noise discrepancy, and while that may not sound like a whole lot.....


remember that dB is a logarithmic scale!
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May 16, 2012 5:30:25 AM

amuffin said:
If you are just watching movies, no point of watercooling or an i5 or the 560ti.

Think i3 and radeon 6450.



1) you are absolutely correct. I agree with you wholeheartedly. see 3)


2) characterizing the usage pattern of the "customer" (he is my brother; not a child; full grown adult who owns his own business) is a bit difficult.

basically its 75:25 business:entertainment system, and further

30:30:30:10 productivity:p hotos:browser:video

browser = extremely inefficient use of browser resources (80-100 tabs in firefox or chrome, with no attention paid to memory resources or CPU usage)

productivity = intuit quickbooks POS, word, excel, outlook

photos = microsoft picture editor thingy, photoshop, etc.

video = VLC, WMP


3) he wants a powerful all around system. He basically wants a system that is on the middle part of the "performance oriented" spectrum. Basically this means an i5 and a single GPU.

here are the specs:

Gigabyte GA-z68xp-ud4 rev1.3 (has "support" for pcie 3.0)
intel i5-3570k
Intel 520-180gb SSD
2xWD caviar black SATA II in raid 0
eVGA NVIDIA GTX-560 Ti FPB (because its "reference PCB" applicable for GPU waterblocks)
16gb of 1600 mhz ram, which I may overclock since his usage profile can actually benefit from fast memory (games CANNOT benefit from >1600mhz according to THG and Anandtech, but retarded usage of Firefox and chrome CAN benefit from overclocked memory).



4) all that being said, he wants this to be absolutely silent.

consequently:

rubber/neoprene gaskets, insulated case, fanless power supply, massively rubber insulated spinning hard drives, and water cooling to replace the fans on the GPU and the CPU.
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a c 150 K Overclocking
May 16, 2012 5:35:31 AM

Then why doesn't he just go with a hyper 212+ without the fan? It performs greatly for a passive heatsink. Also, you should grab a Z77 motherboard!
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May 16, 2012 7:35:31 AM

@amuffin


I had considered the passive heatsinks, but they are pretty large IIRC (such as a large cylindrical "tower" that is fully external and piped into the case via tubing).


Why I am not getting a Z77:


luck of the moment. I have read many many reports about the instability of Asus, Msi, AND Gigabyte z77 motherboards. I am not a fan of Asrock, Intel, or any of the other manufacturers who are typically considered to be "below" the top 3 that I previously listed.


furthermore, there seems to be an annoying degree of tradeoffs in the mid-range of the z77.


I'm not prepared to spend $350 to $400 on a motherboard, and for the $150-$220 price range, you typically sacrifice some component, in most cases its the on-board audio, or possibly you get more eSATA III as opposed to more SATA III, or more usb 2.0 vs usb 3.0



Besides, all that you get from Z77 is more chipset supplied SATA III usb 3.0 and more "inherent" support for PCI-E 3.0.


I honestly don't care if I get 4 SATA III from the chipset, or 4 SATA III from the chipset and a 3rd party controller.


I don't plan on running a 4-way RAID array across the SATA III buses, so its irrelevant anyway.



the Z68 platform has matured to the point that the product I will be getting will be of maximum possiblity stability at a price/performance point that Z77 cannot yet compete with because it is too new.


I was actually considering whether or not to get the Ivy Bridge i5 chip, but the price is only about $10-$20 more than the i5-2500k, and I figure that is worth an extra year or two of R&D from Intel, even if the specifications and performance figures are essentially identical.
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a c 324 K Overclocking
May 16, 2012 2:56:27 PM

I personally think you are going about this the wrong way, especially using the pump from an H100 to perform all these tasks as well as TDP of the entire loop. Your temps and performance could possibly be worse than you are currently seeing, but that depends on how well that H100 pump will work. For the money you are intending to spend, you might as well consider an entry level Rasa/Raystorm kit and add a GPU block...and be done with it.

You appear to have made up your mind, so I don't see the need to have a discussion about this if you are going how you planned. I think the intentions are good, but many people have done what you are wanting to do and many, many have reported pump failure or performance so low that it didn't adequately cool the hardware. Maybe you'll be lucky- let us know how it turns out.
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May 23, 2012 9:07:42 PM

@everyone


I answered my own question.


I looked up a review of these closed systems, and it turns out that they use a highly specialized, non-standard pump system.


one of the reviewers dismantled the water block/pump and examined the mechanism, and it is nothing even remotely like the water pumps (most of which are pretty standard water pump designs) found in custom systems.


the amount of fluid that is pumped through these closed systems is on the order of milliliters (as in 5-15 milliliters max).


There is no way that the pump and system as a whole could handle the capacity necessary to cool anything other than CPU it was designed for.


furthermore, these closed systems operate according to much more sophisticated heat transfer mechanisms than the simple air-liquid radiators used in standard water cooling systems.


I cant remember who wrote the review, but it was very informative.



They are useful for the individual applications that they apply to (such as cooling a CPU), but they are worthless for expansion.



it is a much more complicated issue than "the pump does not push as much water at a high enough flow and pressure rate"
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a c 324 K Overclocking
May 23, 2012 9:55:34 PM

Quote:
it is a much more complicated issue than "the pump does not push as much water at a high enough flow and pressure rate"


This is the simplified version of why it isn't- it has to also do with the dissipation capability of the radiator being used, but mainly pump head pressure and flow rate being very, very low. You didn't really ask about these, so it's possible the above answer was meant to discuss for those who aren't as familiar with watercooling terminology.

All of the items you've listed in your conclusion post are things we've all known for quite a while and the basis for why we tried to discourage you in the first place.

The passive/aggressiveness of your conclusion isn't really necessary as most those items were talking points at some time during this thread.

I understand your frustration, but there are reasons why 1) this isn't done more often, and 2) we had the responses we had on this thread.
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a c 78 K Overclocking
May 24, 2012 11:19:49 PM

sigh, maybe OP can look at a corsair H mod i did, and it really sucks in the perf dept. Looks good though :p 
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