Video editing machine
I want to build my own machine for editing AVCHD video and working on my photos (I'm professional photographer starting to produce short video segments). I plan to use Adobe Premiere Pro and Photoshop. I really like the SX58H7 i7 Shuttle form factor (compact) and was thinking this would make a good machine to start off.
8 USB port
Is this form factor a bad ideal?
8 USB port
Is this form factor a bad ideal?
$700 for a barebone without a cpu or ram or gpu. They got to be kidding. You can build an i7 pc WITH cpu, ram & IGP for $700. The Shuttle looks like a proprietary form factor in which the mobo won't be upgradeable. You'll be locked into this tech and it'll become obsolete in a few years.
Build it yourself or pay somebody to do it. What's your budget? What hardware will be reused? What are the other uses of this pc?
Video editing is about as demanding an activity in many respects as you can do on a PC ... HD take a beating and many users build SAS into their builds. Shuttle = small and what you're doing most people go big.....
therefore need to know exactly what your goals are as you're going against the mainstream for this type of use.
I'm not locked into the Shuttle, I just liked the clean lines and the form factor. I'm on a Mac now, however I need to move over to PC windows. So piece-by-piece is all very new, and I'm so confused. My use of the computer is i'm a photojournalist that handles several gigs of pictures from photo assignments, and now i'm doing short video projects.
Do you have a recommendation for a box that has clean professional design? Nothing against gamers, and I know they have their reasons but the box looks so,... alien.
I plan on using the i7, a video card that strong enough for HD video editing on at least a 25"LCD screen, IEEEE 1394 port (6pin) and eSATA multiplier port, and at least 6 USB ports
THANKS for all your advice in advance
Short video segments, are you joking? Get a p4 somewhere for cheap with 2 gigs of ram and call it a day. i7 for short video segments? I can see the next idea, it's sticking a plane engine in a car. Give me a break dude. For what your want to use your computer for, anything is a rip off almost.
Since when did the video card ever really affect video encoding to the point where you had to get something strong? Get anything recent that fits the budget, it'll work.
The P4 idea was a joke. Just to let you know...
I work primarily on a G5 mac, as I mentioned this Windows (build) is all very new! And i'm just looking for help and advice. Threednonsense if you have no genuine suggestions other than sarcasm, then I ask you to please keep your condescending comments to yourself.
I do some editing on a duo core, however if I could capture, transcode, edit and render video faster, then it's plus that helps me on the deadlines that photojournalist deal with daily.
That's weird, cause you can't be sarcastic while being condescending. They were smart ass remarks I agree. Seriously, I gave you the best genuine advice there is. I do video editing myself and you don't need nothing too crazy for short video clips, I assure you that. It ain't worth the money, trust me. I gave you the best advice whether you know it or not. As for what you want to get, I left you with a lot of options now didn't I? Figure it out, it ain't rocket science. Now i'm being condescending since you seemed to be asking for it.
And lastly it was the responses that really got me questioning things. Not your original post. If you were even slightly paying attention to your own posts you would know this. But hey, go buy an i7 as they say. I actually would love to see you waste your money now since you don't want to take "that's how it is" advice. That's about as geniune as it gets, so don't even go there with your side remark trying to make a point with your snooty attitude which I noticed that most mac users have. You mean to tell me you can't video edit on a mac? Seriously now... That's a waste of money.
Go to a reputable local computer store, and show 'em a list of parts you want built into a pc. The service won't cost an arm & a leg. Just make sure they have all the parts. I'm not sure if stores custom-build pcs with parts bought elsewhere. I would build it for you for a price if I were in the area.
Intel Core i7-920
Foxconn FlamingBlade LGA 1366 Intel X58 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
Mushkin Enhanced Silverline 6GB N82E16820226040 or pick one out from here:
CASE + POWER: The door opens all the way to the side and can be removed
Antec Sonata III 500 Black 0.8mm cold rolled steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 500W Power Supply - Retail
HIS H467PS1GH Radeon HD 4670 iSilence4 1GB 128-bit DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail
or for DirectX 11 in Windows 7:
XFX HD-577A-ZNFC Radeon HD 5770 (Juniper XT) 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card - Retail
SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD502HJ 500GB (for OS)
Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB (for data)
SAMSUNG DVD Burner Black SATA Model SH-S223L
You can pick out the rest like LCD, keyboard & mouse. All parts are from newegg.com
Video production and editing is my job. Its not a hobby like most people here. I will list what I have found works and WHY.
I assume you are using a 5d MKII or 7D (Pro photog + H.264 video). H.264 video requires serious power to edit so an i7 920 is a minimum.
12GB ram: using Photoshop CS4 and Premiere Pro CS4 with 12GB of ram is soooo much faster than just 6GB. With Photoshop, you will almost never use your scratch disk, so its far faster. For example, I was a still photog and used the 24.6MP Sony A900. Without opening the PSDs, I can't remember how many layers but the PSDs for a wedding were commonly 800-900MB a piece. More ram also greatly helps with pano's.
Video Card: Nvidia all day long. At least the 9800GT 1GB. PS and Premiere CS4 are able to leverage the video card for instant rendering of certain filters and effects using OpenGL. The main reason to go with Nvidia is Adobe's current and future support of CUDA and using the GPU to render and encode video. Fxguide has a video showcasing a desktop PC, nvidia gfx card and Premiere using a future release of Premiere. They had 5 4k Red layers playing in real time. An i7 920 can only play a single 4k layer at about 16 frames per second(24FPS clips). This is the future of Premiere and video rendering, which will be CS5 due out next spring.
The AVIVO feature is absolute junk. It is designed for already rendered video to be encoded to an ipod or other portable player. The quality of video is very low and in no way works with Premiere.
For case: Antec P183 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129061&Tpk=p183
Its very quiet, has great airflow and supports 6 internal drives. For sleek looking cases, the two best are Antec and Lian-Li.
Motherboard: everyone I know in video editing use ASUS. I use the P6T http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131359&cm_re=p6t-_-13-131-359-_-Product
Although, this ASUS just came out and it has USB 3.0 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131614
You can overclock from 2.66GHz to 3.6GHz with great stability. If this appeals to you, then this Noctua cpu cooler is best http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835608014&cm_re=noctua-_-35-608-014-_-Product
Power Supply: PC Power & Cooling, SeaSonic and Corsair are the best. Depending on how many internal drives you will use and which gfx card, 600 to 750w will be enough. I have an i7, 8800GT, 12 internal drives, 2 Raid controllers and a PC Power 750w.
You mention eSATA multiplier - do you have an external setup currently?
What is your workflow for stills? What part seems to take a long time - this will help me determine areas that can be sped up.
I forgot to mention SSDs. I have the Intel X25 80GB and it makes my 4 10000rpm Raptors in Raid feel like a 10yr old computer. Photoshop opens in under 2 seconds; booting up is done as soon as you see your desktop.
I assume you will use Windows 7 x64 Pro or Ultimate.
specialk90 I shoot all my stills on 5D MKII and some video on the camera. However I do shoot the majority of video on Canon's HF S11 for the simplicity of AF. The HF S11 is also fitted with w/rode mic and shoe adapter or Sennheiser G2 for audio. The problem is taking those AVCHD files and converting them for editing use (H.264 converted to ProRes files). We're presently working on Mac stations but thats going to change sometime real soon to PC Window
The system I want to build is for my home, for when I need or prefer to finish some my video editing at home.
For now I think I won't over clock, at lest until I become more comfortable and knowledgeable with PC Windows. Just comfort factor.....
Thanks for the advice on 9800GT 1GB video card. It seems all the video card reviews are for gamers (rightly so). I did have my picks down to ATI or Nvidia, just wasn't sure which video card.
I'm going to look over those cases. Antec P183 and Lian-Li.
ASUS motherboard was the exact mobo was considering. Particularly because of the firewire port, since I also shoot some video on my Canon XHA1, which as you know is tape.
eSATA I have the Icy Dock MB561US-4S 4 bay enclosure for home and I was hoping to use the Icy Dock MB559UEA-1S single bay USB/firewire for back and fourth between the office and home.
My work flow for stills is solid. Ingest RAW images > rename the files> go through the take for a loose edit (generally 30 images > then re-edit with my photo editor for the tight edit (15 images)> then tone and crop the images> rename the process images> transfer toned images into in process server>......... store RAW images in separate server.
I haven't given much consideration to SSD, however that something I need to look into if it's affordable. Remember I footing the bill on this machine. Hard drives,.. I would love to go with 10k rpm, but the cost is too steep for me.
Yes I will be using Windows 7Pro in 64bit
THANKS FOR SOLID ADVICE!!!!
No problem at all.
Pro Res can be considered an 'Intermediate', which is what many people prefer to use, especially those who capture to tape(HDV) and h.264. On the PC side, many use Cineform. It would be a very similar process: capture(tape) or download(h.264) and convert to Cineform for editing. Check out their site for different options. I think one of their options allow capturing straight to Cineform rather than capture then convert. I recently looked into them for live uncompressed capture via SDI (for greenscreen work). There are two great aspects of Cineform: 10 bit files and it uses a Wavelet codec. Their site can explain the codec better but what is says is true.
I am not 100% sure about this: you might be able to just buy one license and set up a single PC at work to convert all files. Cineform provides a free player for Mac and PC so anyone can view the videos and I think a codec is installed so you can edit in Premiere also. I just thought more about it. The full Cineform software might be needed so you can render out the timeline in their codec. This is important if you commonly render your timelines in Pro Res since it will be the same workflow.
Whats your typical video workflow once you have the Pro Res files?
Is it for broadcast(SD and/or HD), web(SD and/or HD) or DVD/Blu Ray?
I forgot to ask what monitor you have at home.
I am jealous of your 5D. This little camera is being used in feature films as a B camera, which says a lot. And Saturday Night Live is using the 5D too. I really love its Bokeh and how it gives the film look. Oh yeah, check out Philip Bloom's site http://philipbloom.co.uk/ He has created some amazing video with the 5D and 7D and has great info on how to get the most out of the 2 cameras.
Have you use anything less than what you have? In order to make that claim, I'm sure you've used CS4 on other things other than Vista and an i7? Sure you might do this for "serious" type of stuff. Although, wouldn't this be an assumption if this is the only setup you've used? I also find find it kind of werid, cause I could have sworn he said "short video clips" somwhere in his post.
Yes they are short video clips about 5 minutes. However I need to still edit down about 10 minutes of A-roll and 45 minutes of B-roll. An on occasion add a few still photos to the timeline. Then I need to export a full .avi file for archiving into the server,. followed by exporting an .flv to a specific size. Delivery is for web in SD and HD,.. with future possibility of TV use. No DVD or BluRay use
btw,.. yes I am looking into Cineform,. Neoscene for workflow with AVCHD.. Currently on Mac and Final Cut Pro to ingest then we convert H.264 to ProRes on MPEG Streamclip... but with us switching to PC Windows we are going to have to rethink our work flow. That's where Cineform>Neoscene might be best to convert .avi for Premiere to edit.
Yes the MkII 5D is a beautiful file to work with,... some are using the camera and the long glass for music videos and car commercials
Thanks for reminding me about monitors,.. I was considering the Samsung HDTV 27" (not sure if thats a good or bad idea,.. your thoughts?l) or the HP2509m 25" LCD.
I have to tell you though I am still very confused about video cards. Which ones are good for gamers and which one are for video editing. Or perhaps if there is difference. I have read some brief articles about Cuda, and the possibilities of applications taking full advantage of the video processing power. Is there a card you could recommend in the $150-$200 range and in the $200-$300 range ,.. or is that insanely too cheap too consider?
Don't know if you are familiar with "Monitoring" but it usually entails using an external box connected to the computer and a LCD. It displays either the Source or Program video depending which is selected. This is in addition to the regular LCD(s) that is directly attached to the computer. This external box includes several inputs and outputs for various video and audio connections (HDMI, SDI, Component...). The boxes also provide color settings for video only, such as Gamma, Blue Only, etc.
The basic setup for color adjustments is using Bars. I will provide a good link on how to make the proper adjustments.
Essentially, there are 3 common paths people take for monitoring:
1) use a very expensive LCD ($1600 is the lowest they go) that provides the color adjustments needed for proper color accuracy. The LCD is directly attached to the video card like a normal LCD and have Premiere set to monitor to it.
2) use an expensive LCD like above but have it connected to an external video device. Here are the most popular: Aja IO Epxress http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/618185-REG/AJA_IO_EXPRESS_PCIE_I_O_Express_Portable_Video.html
Matrox MXO2 Mini - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/618348-REG/Matrox_MXO2_MINI_D_MXO2_Mini_for_Desktop.html
BlackMagic HDLink - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/620822-REG/Blackmagic_Design_HDL_PRODVI_HDLink_Pro_DVI_Digital_HD.html
All 3 provide color adjustments themselves so people can use the next setup.
3) Use a HDTV (LCD or Plasma) or a relatively inexpensive computer LCD connected to one of the above devices. Wedding videographers prefer this method(HDTV) since they usually output to dvd.
There are also internal devices that provide similar function from Blackmagic and Aja.
For web video, color correction is not extremely critical but broadcast is.
Check this link below for when you setup the LCD for video.
And also this one: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sdtv-hdtv-video-monitors/215415-proper-lcd-calibration-video-colorgrading.html
I listed the Matrox Mini but I hate it. I used it for 2 days and then disconnected it and uninstalled its software. The main problem I had was during editing in Premiere. Since the device shows either the Source or Program video, going back and forth would cause a delay of roughly 8 seconds each time. During this delay, I couldn't do anything. The other problem was with their software. Matrox is definitely geared towards Macs because their Windows software seems to be an afterthought.
I forgot to mention that these devices provide monitoring for several applications including Photoshop and After Effects (and Final Cut). Although, I never got the Matrox to show a live view of Photoshop.
I now use an Eizo CG243W attached directly to an nvidia gfx card. After the Matrox, I found that recent nvidia cards provide several color adjustments important to video, such as Gamma and Hue, and even allows switching between RGB and YUV. I chose this Eizo because it has presets for several color spaces. (Premiere isn't color managed but AE & PS are) SD and HD use different color spaces and the Eizo allows quickly switching between both. It is also a 10bit LCD which is why its $2300. At my studio, I use a JVC ($1600) mainly for greenscreen editing and live monitoring while recording. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/469731-REG/JVC_DT_V24L1U_DTV24L1U_24_Multi_Format.html#specifications
He might do this for a living, but I've actually encoded videos of my own. I would have to say, your honestly wasting money on something you don't need. The real PERFORMANCE gains for the price isn't worth it if you already have a core 2 duo. GIVEN!!! I express that that because of what i'm about to say. Given, your doing "SHORT" video clips. You can't compare his needs to yours, because it's way different.
Believe it or not, the graphics has NOTHING to do with picture quality as far as the "final export". This is strictly what the dv can put in through the firewire or whatever means you choose to use to import. As far as "PERFORMANCE" once again... This can vary. The correct graphics card you need is one of those 3d cad type of graphics. The reason why someone suggested the 4670 which I do not believe the poster mentioned is that, you can flash this graphics card to act like a 3d cad graphics for a decent price, since these graphics cards are usually pricey. As far as how many monitors and the quality you want, that's really YOUR decision and what YOU feel you want. It can be done on one monitor, it really is a matter of "preference" and how much you want to spend.
The quality of your video is going to be decided by "generally" two main factors. The camcorder on which you shot your film on and the encoding options you choose to use.
I don't why this person is trying to get fancy when he could just told you specific simple details. I also don't see why he has to pretend he's intelligent while your needs are way different from his.
What your looking for is performance, and your not going to get much more from what I can see.
threenonsense I sent you a "private message" yesterday (Thursday). A lot of us noobs come to forums like this seeking genuine advice and suggestions. And some to offer their expertise and experience in the topic of "video editing machine" Then to have someone who works as a professional videographer and video editing offer PC (video editing machine) advice is a definite plus! When it comes to computers I'm by no means nor have I pretended to be "intelligent" Just look at my basic line of questioning. I am however intelligent behind my camera and know what images and scenes I need to shoot. Just like I'm "intelligent" enough to take the advice given and ask further questions that would help me adjust his experience and advice to my workflow needs.
It's clear to me at least, what you have missed in the threaded conversation is what we have are two professional photographers asking and exchanging technical advice.
You on the other hand, appear to just want to debate every issue and/or show off your experience. And in equally as distasteful, you choose shove your advice down one's throat. I truly feel bad that you are unable to control your anger issues.
Happy Holidays to you!
Oh, right, I'm sorry, I must be retarded somewhere along the line as a US veteran. I must not be that respectable in this case and I greatly humble myself to you people for being one.
Thank you randomizer that really hit the spot. But I do have something to add.
Kuentos, could you back up your claim on the part where I tried to SHOVE any suggestions in your final decision. Cause actually, I didn't even mention nor suggest anything SPECIFIC at all for you to get... In fact, I left with so many options it wasn't even funny.
What gets me pissed off is the fact he knows that's too much and I crushed his expertise decision on what you need. And randomizer being here for a while I have noticed you as a moderator. Uhhh... Randomizer with all due respect as a US veteran, please, take a seat, I insist. Is it a fact that when you sign up for tomshardware that... it is against the sites rules in agreement that one should not spread false information deliberately? The fact this guy claims to be a professional, and we both know that what he's suggesting by saying that an i7 is at minimum, that tells me he's lying because this is not a fact. At least I try to keep it factual. Lastly, the only people I see here getting upset is the people making it personal. Which I am never going to do, but a good debate is one where a person admits they are wrong, which I have greatly done in the past for MY own mistake. Anyways...
So, as a moderator, I would suggest you look through the rules because spreading false information DELIBERATELY is against forum policies which I been posting for quite a while and I try to stick to this. Sure I make jokes and sarcastic remarks sometimes, but nowhere have I ever tried to personally attack someone because I was in the wrong. There's something wrong with this picture and it ain't right by all means. And if it's never fixed, it's never going to be right.
I think we both know that other threads get a lot more worse than this. The only reason why this one is so touchy is because he knows he was wrong.
Lastly, kuentos, where did I ever throw out personal remarks beside the fact of trying to resolve the issue of special's? If you read carefully, the only person with anger issues was special, cause he knew he was wrong, and you just jumped on his bandwagon now didn't you?
Oh, happy holidays kuentos.
It's also against the forum rules to post harassments. What you have posted has been deemed harassing by other members, yet you claim it isn't. A nice grey area isn't it? If we were to enforce the rules like nazis we'd have to delete half the forum. So please don't quote the rules to me, because I will quote them back. As moderators and administrators act on behalf of Bestofmedia on this forum, we are the final arbiters of what is and is not allowed to be posted.
Whether he is right or wrong makes no difference. His mind is made up. Other readers of this thread have both sides of the argument available to them and can therefore draw their own conclusions.
Could you as to kindly show me where I made this personal harassment? Cause the only one I see is special, blowing up and getting mad over the fact that he was wrong. And you have no arguement I see, otherwise you would have noted it. Also, I am discussing the issue not personal things. ^_^
I would also like to see where making smart allec remarks with good points in my comments is againts the rules. If you can, I'll quickly drop this issue, but you've been a moderator for quite some time now. People don't like being proven wrong now do they? I agree they were smart allec answers. And.... Okay.... Sure.... Uhhhhh, anyways.
And, one last comment to your post which has been most helpful for the most part, but the thing is, your kind of blowing it out of proportion here by skipping the fact we both know is incorrect. Therefor, even as a moderator you can't find the problem cause even you yourself decided to skip the initial problem that occured. Which was posting incorrect information and claiming it was true. All he had to say was something like "Well, perhaps that was a little overboard, I am a professional afterall, and this is just what I have personally have" but instead handled it in a hostile manner, showed no humor, completely made it personal and harassing, and completely hostileness. To add to that, falsely claming that I am, which I can't really see, because normally people aren't mad when they are making smart allec answer, but that's just me...
Ummm, you left the discussion open by saying "Threednonsense if you have no genuine suggestions other than sarcasm, then I ask you to please keep your condescending comments to yourself." When in fact, everything I said was quite accurate. And they were smart allec answers btw.
Okay, here's the deal breaker, show where I am wrong and I'll correct it. Besides the fact that I am a smart allec person with humor that nobody appreciates. Other than that, Special is the only one breaking forums rules and policies now ain't he?
Randomizer just link me to the page where it says "smart allec answers even if factual is prohibited on this site". Or even anything in the ball park would be nice. Otherwise, your doing a fairly poor job in keeping this forum factual.
I quote from special
"threenonsense, no one here wants to hear from you so go annoy someone else. The OP already told you to shut up and leave so follow his advice."
Completely hostile, unprofessional, harassing, and personally. On top of that, the orginally poster never even said anything close to that.
Edit: I just read your last post kuentos. Evidently, I proved him wrong if he can't back it up professionally as he claimed. That's all I implied. Lastly, I don't read private messages, and that would have nothing to do what is written in this thread, but for the sake of it, thanks for the notice, I'll go read it. And let me tell you something that you didn't think of yourself. You two BOTH do the same type of work right? Okay, with this in mind, what makes you think his opinion and choices is any better than yours? Oh wow, there's a thought...
threednonsense said:Could you as to kindly show me where I made this personal harassment?
No I can't, because none of your posts were directed at me and therefore I don't find them harassing myself. As I said in my previous post, "What you have posted has been deemed harassing by other members," which is why I posted here in the first place (one of the posts was reported) but haven't gone and deleted posts.threednonsense said:Randomizer just link me to the page where it says "smart allec answers even if factual is prohibited on this site". Or even anything in the ball park would be nice. Otherwise, your doing a fairly poor job in keeping this forum factual.
It's not my job to keep this site factual. I do not have infinite time to read every single post, let alone make sure they are all accurate and neither do any of the other moderators (admittedly the moderators do a very good job of keeping things non-factual at AMDZone, but they have a zero-tolerance policy for facts and less members). My job is to make sure that things stay relatively calm and let the discussions filter the facts themselves. Doing so myself would make the forum one-sided and it would turn into my personal blog rather than a discussion board.
@All: Anyway, I've made my point clear and I don't want to derail the thread any more, so just keep it calm so I don't have to clean up the thread and/or lock it.