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Alright, another idea on Peltier cooling.

Last response: in Overclocking
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May 30, 2012 5:51:52 AM

I asked a question a while ago about what people have done to use the peltier effect to cool their pc's and i didn't get too many answers because my question was fairly dead end.

But it still lingres in my brain on different ideas to incorperate a basic peltier into water cooling and then one night i conjured this up. I'd like to apologise beforehand if this is another dead end idea because my science isnt too flash but in my head this seemed like it could work? please comment if you can see any loose ends in the idea, i'd like to see if this is possible or even worth it. ok well lets get to the idea.

Ok so ill set the scene, im going to base this off what ill have in my own case (minus the peltier mechanism of course)

We'll start with a single loop, so you'll have the pump going into the radiator mounted to the roof of the case then from there going straight down into the Cpu block and back up to the res to start again.
With the peltier mechanism, I was thinking it would go from the pump, to the rad, then coming from the rad you'd have a copper pipe, (like what you'd see in house water systems) then that would come out horizontally across your case wall with a barb fitting on the end of it to continue the cycle but on this copper pipe is a peltier mechanism that is activated with a switch controlled by maybe a rechargable battery or direct to your PSU. this switch would have a power regulator so you could amp it up if you want it to work stronger or tone it down for less power. so you have the bitsmuth and copper outer layer of this copper pipe coming from your rad, with wires attatched, so that when you want to cool down your water inside the loop you could activate the power and cool down the pipe it travels through, therefore regulating the temp of your water? So its not going to be as extreme as cooling a cpu therefore you probably wont need any insulation otherwise maybe just a small layer to keep too much hot air escaping into your case.

As i said im not the brightest so this idea could have multiple flaws in it but would it be a plausible idea for a cooling solution?

Crest

Edit:
the idea is pretty much add a low powered TEC to a pipe coming from the radiator to further cool the water that has been cooled by the radiator, a tec that wont require much power and can be easily switched on and off so the user can regulate the water temp. although i haven't actually seen a tec that isnt a flat surface yet. maybe have two small TEC's on either side attatched to the pipe to cool either side evenly. Or the pipe coming from the Rad could easily be flattened a bit to make the mounting easier.
a c 232 K Overclocking
May 30, 2012 12:28:26 PM

Utilizing a thermostat to control the water temperature.

How about instead of the pipe idea you use an old water block inline?

Same effect but pretty much the perfect size to fit the peltier?

This seems like a good idea to me and pretty ingenious!
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a b K Overclocking
May 30, 2012 4:19:32 PM

Short term (for benches and attempting high OCs) it sounds like it would work. In the long term it won't really make a difference, since all of the heat released from the CPU will eventually be released into the environment (i.e. your room) somehow.
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a b K Overclocking
May 30, 2012 4:40:21 PM

ok a peltier pad has a hot side and a cold side without some way to cool the hot side the cold side will never get below ambient temp of the room so in this example you would need some way to cool the outside of the pipe. I have never heard of this being done but if you created some kind of duel piping on two loops the inner loop with the water for the blocks would not need a rad as the peltier pads will remove the heat from the water the larger outer loop that the inner loop would be inside of will need radiators and more than normal to remove the heat created from the hot side of the inner tube or the peltier this might be possible and work better than a pad with a block on top of it but you would have to build your own or have a machine shop build it for you
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a c 326 K Overclocking
May 30, 2012 5:28:11 PM

Boiler and Toolmaker make an excellent point about cooling the hot side of the TEC since by nature you always end up with a hot side and the cold side that always gets applied to surfaces to cool. I don't know if a simple heatsink/fan setup would accomplish this, or if you'd need watercooling...it would really depend on the power in watts by the TEC and heat being produced.

Regardless, you would be potentially be cooling the water via active cooling but as a result, require more power (TEC PSU) to do so and at a cost of additional heat watts dumped into the ambient, thus raising ambient, making the water loop radiators and the heatsinks cooling the TECs less efficient at cooling the actual water loop.

Not that it isn't worth trying, but the heat generated by Peltiers has to go somewhere and that ends up being ambient air that is also being used to cool the watercooling loop and the TEC's themselves. If you had a well ventilated or A/C room, this would help reduce ambient heat soak by a significant amount.

FYI- I still think it's a pretty neat idea...just some things to consider when planning this project.
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May 31, 2012 12:20:43 AM

I think i'd be the last person to actually be able to get it to work seeing as im in no financial position or knowlegable position to do it but i figured seeing as it wont have to run at crazy volts because it only has to cool the water wouldnt it run at a significantly cooler temperature on the outside? maybe even possibly have a small heatsink and small fan attatched if needed or what if you had the pipe split and one flat side runs through the cold part and the other runs over the top of the hot part to absorb some of that heat then runs back into the res to go through the cooling process again, ill draw up an idea in illustrator and if anyone wants to see the idea pm me your email and ill email you a PDF? i cant use image hosting websites while im at work :/ 
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a c 326 K Overclocking
May 31, 2012 2:33:18 AM

Quote:
what if you had the pipe split and one flat side runs through the cold part and the other runs over the top of the hot part to absorb some of that heat then runs back into the res to go through the cooling process again


This would kind of negate the need to use a peltier in the first place as you'd be adding the heat back into the loop that the pelt would be removing...kind of like adding ice to boiling water in an effort to boil and freeze it at the same time.
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May 31, 2012 3:23:28 AM

Is it an even ratio of hot to cold though? i thought that too after i said it but maybe even possibly have the water from that lead to a small 120mm rad to cool that section but still following through to the res.

Or could even attach a small heatsink like you see on ram so that heat would dissapate a bit more before it reaches the res. I mean it'll have to run through a 360 rad before it is further cooled by the TEC.

If we somehow cool the water that is split and used to cool the hot side of the TEC more then the rate in which the water is getting colder from the cold side then it would be effective wouldn't it?
All we'd need to iron out is the heat dissapation from the hot side of the TEC and it could be plausible?
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May 31, 2012 6:16:03 AM

I hope this image works im trying to use dropbox on my phone to host images.
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a c 326 K Overclocking
May 31, 2012 1:37:31 PM

I still think it might be a wash to some degree, but if you split it like you have to directly feed 'cold' water to your CPU block, it would benefit a little. But remember, loop equilibrium will still be a bit warmer by having the hot side dumping into the loop, albeit further in the chain...but that's the point of the loop...there really isn't a start or end...it's all one entity.

It's a good idea though- might be worth pursuing to see what kind of results you get, depending how many watts the TEC is rated for. The only issue I can foresee is the TEC hot/cold sides essentially fighting each other to raise/lower the loop working equilibrium.

BTW...what did you use to draw up that diagram? Pretty smooth...I like it.
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a b K Overclocking
May 31, 2012 2:29:00 PM

ok so here is the kind of temps you will see off that tec pad let's assume it is a 224W tec the cold side under the best conditions will be 40 degrees F below ambient temp but the hot side will be at twice that for example let's say that room temp is 70 F the cold side may be 35 F while the hot side would be 150 F that is a lot of heat to remove that is why I suggested two loops but I thought that you where trying to make the tubing into a kind of tec pad with this set up I am assuming that this will be copper tubing for this experiment one pad wont cool a whole system I still suggest two loops and more tec's on the tubing and no rads on the cold side loop if it works the rads on the cold side would only serve to heat up your water
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a b K Overclocking
May 31, 2012 3:03:25 PM

ok now design wise what you have done here is make a homemade water chiller this is the same way that one of them work but I believe that that this would be more efficient than the normal water chiller
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June 1, 2012 12:40:15 AM

rubix_1011 said:
BTW...what did you use to draw up that diagram? Pretty smooth...I like it.


I work as a Marketing Administrator so i have access to the adobe suite. I used Adobe Illustrator and my new Wacom Cintiq 24HD to make the picture then exported it as a JPEG :)  it was a pretty quick sketch up though.
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a c 326 K Overclocking
June 1, 2012 1:57:47 AM

Nice, I'd love to find something free that does something similar. I've tried Google Sketchup...it's ok, not the greatest, and Visio always looks....clunky unless you are actually making flow charts or diagrams, not for really great creating drawings like this.
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June 1, 2012 2:04:23 AM

you could try gimp? thats freeware i think? although thats a rasta based program much like photoshop. what you're looking for is a vector based program, ill go on a quick google quest for you :) 
Yeah what i love about vector images is you could blow it up to any size you'd like and it'd remain clean, no pixelation. Providing you save it to an appropriate format of course.

(Edit)
Just had a quick look around, try a program called Inkscape, i haven't tried it myself but i found it straight away when i googled "free vector based program" looks like its a good package and its freeware so it might be worth looking into. Or if by any chance you know an australian highschool student you can get the adobe design premium package for a crazy 80% off! haha thats what I did while I was at school.
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June 1, 2012 2:14:25 AM

Just had a look at the interface of Inkscape for you, looks like a combination of Illustrator and bits and pieces of Microsoft Publisher in it. maybe tailored towards people with graphics tablets but still can create scaleable images and sounds like it has a nice array of features, let us know how you go?
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a c 326 K Overclocking
June 1, 2012 2:18:25 AM

I've used GIMP for photo editing and I've downloaded Inkscape but never used it...looks like a good time to try each! Thanks for looking around a bit, I've wanted to find something to at least start out with before I start spending money on software. It would be really nice to have some digital sketches and mock ups to work on- most of my stuff has been paper sketches or trying to get Visio to work for what I need.

Thanks again!
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June 1, 2012 2:22:23 AM

No worries man always happy to help when i can :) 

yeah i know how you feel, i do a lot of brainstorming for thngs i'd like to make (mind you they dont usually end up being finished) but its good to have a clean image in front of you instead of scribbles, although i dont mind hitting the old lead pencil and paper every now and then.
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June 1, 2012 2:41:03 AM

But anyhow, back to the task at hand.

Ryan when you mentioned using an old block did you mean use the old block but reverse the TEC so instead of the block cooling the TEC, it gets cooled by the TEC? thats an interesting idea, we just need to figure out a way for that heat release. so it doesnt burn out :/ 

And toolmaker, sorry im having trouble understanding what you mean? thats probably why i draw pictures haha ah my original idea of adding it after the rad is so the rad can cool the water from the cpu so it would be easier for the TEC to chill the water.

To expand on what Ryan said about the old block idea, you could even have a insulation box around the cold side of the TEC and the block to make it more efficient. But after a bit of research and thinking over what toolmaker said, we wont be able to simply add a small heatsink to handle the hot side it needs to be much stronger.
When you suggested the second loop did you mean the second loop would be used souly to cool the TEC's?
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a c 326 K Overclocking
June 1, 2012 3:02:19 AM

Quote:
When you suggested the second loop did you mean the second loop would be used souly to cool the TEC's?


This was my understanding.
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June 1, 2012 3:14:18 AM

My initial goal was to eliminate the need for two loops haha but i mean if you could get better results out of this then having two loops installed for seperate purposes then it could be a plus I guess? i mean it would be good to control the temperature of your water anyway but it would be of extra cost and time/effort.

For a while I thought maybe use a single 120mm rad to cool the TEC thus minimising costs and providing an alternative for someone with less room in their case for an extra triple or double rad.

(there may be a use for the small all in one watercoolers after all?)

(Edit)
Or, we could also harness the radbox idea for this. giving you more space to provide a cooling solution. maybe a box so that the hot air will be expelled from the back of the box keeping it away from your interior but still supplying you with cool water. if you used a radbox idea you could have quick disconnects at the back of your pc so when you want to use the TEC box you can just plug it in, turn it on, beef up your pump speed and away you go. otherwise you could complete the loop by coupling the Quick Disconnects together and continue with traditional watercooling.

This is how it's working in my head anyway haha.
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June 1, 2012 3:29:37 AM

toolmaker_03 said:
yes

Cheers for the informative response :p 
What are your thoughts on the TEC box idea Toolmaker?
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a b K Overclocking
June 1, 2012 4:25:00 AM

well i kind of like your first idea just not on the same loop I have 4 tec's and 2 of them are 224W and 2 are the 135W the reason I stopped using them is because they get overloaded remember how I stated how they work at ambient temps applied to the cold side well as you start to add heat to the cold side the hot side gets hotter when the hot side reaches 235 F the pad becomes unstable in a way and the hot side will begin to spike temps and get really hot but using the tubing as a rad of sorts the tec will never get that hot so you will be able to sustain long periods of time if not 24/7 operation out of your tec's
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June 1, 2012 4:41:53 AM

So what you mean is like with my first idea of constructing the actual tubing as a TEC mechanism but actually using that as the pipes that run through your radiator so it can be used as a heatsink and cooled down by fans? is that the idea?

about that, the first thing i checked before i posted this thread was whether i could find any tec's that are curved, and so far i haven't seen any, one thing you'd have to deal with with a TEC pipe would be heat expansion though. you'd get cracking i guess, especially in such a confined space. if you could draw up a quick sketch and upload your idea it'd help me understand a fair bit better haha.
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June 1, 2012 4:47:17 AM

actually I understand what you mean now. so you wouldnt need anything to extract the heat at all?

although not using it on the same loop is still getting me. could you explain why you wouldnt use them in the same loop, in laymen terms if possible? haha ill re-read your other comments to make an understanding.
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a c 232 K Overclocking
June 1, 2012 2:19:21 PM

CrestfallenDesign said:
But anyhow, back to the task at hand.

Ryan when you mentioned using an old block did you mean use the old block but reverse the TEC so instead of the block cooling the TEC, it gets cooled by the TEC? thats an interesting idea, we just need to figure out a way for that heat release. so it doesnt burn out :/ 

And toolmaker, sorry im having trouble understanding what you mean? thats probably why i draw pictures haha ah my original idea of adding it after the rad is so the rad can cool the water from the cpu so it would be easier for the TEC to chill the water.

To expand on what Ryan said about the old block idea, you could even have a insulation box around the cold side of the TEC and the block to make it more efficient. But after a bit of research and thinking over what toolmaker said, we wont be able to simply add a small heatsink to handle the hot side it needs to be much stronger.
When you suggested the second loop did you mean the second loop would be used souly to cool the TEC's?


Yes the TEC would be cooling the water block and use an old old heat sink and cooling fan to handle the heat produced, from the TEC.

I had the perfect old Thermaltake Socket 939 massive water block to donate to your project, tore my office up looking for it, and then remembered I tossed it 2 months ago, thinking I would never have a use for it. > Sorry my bad! :pfff: 
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a c 190 K Overclocking
June 1, 2012 7:37:58 PM

**I think i'd be the last person to actually be able to get it to work seeing as im in no financial position or knowlegable position to do it **

This is what drives a lot of creativity, if you had the money for a $20,000 cooler you would probably just buy it and be none the wiser as to what it was doing, or how,
Those who have everything rarely create anything, but those who have nothing, find a use for everything **Disclaimer, no Rubix, its not a sigline :p **
I had scoped this thread out earlier but didn't add to it as I don't have any pelt experience and don't feel I have researched it enough to offer solid advice on it, but as you asked me to contribute I'm happy to,

I would have gone for the 'obvious' method of inserting the Tec plate on top of the cpu/Gpu chips and then a waterblock on top of that,
the cool side on the chip to cool it and the water would take the heat from the hot side, theoretically speaking at least :) 
the thing (other than cost) preventing me from investigating it as a solution for my needs are the additional power requirements, space issues and noise,
assuming I will always be sat with the Pc next to my head, I want as quiet a system as possible so any compressors/phase change kit would have to be located in an adjoining room,
Rereading the posts though and picking bits out, I think one of the ideas of having a 'spare' block I.e. not on a chip, and cooling that with a tec would also be a valid avenue to pursue, one advantage of that would be the tec could be swapped out if needed without disturbing the actual loop
Moto
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a c 326 K Overclocking
June 2, 2012 2:25:42 PM

Quote:
Those who have everything rarely create anything, but those who have nothing, find a use for everything **Disclaimer, no Rubix, its not a sigline **


Still sig-worthy.
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a c 190 K Overclocking
June 2, 2012 3:35:17 PM

Saved in the sig file :) 
Moto
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a c 232 K Overclocking
June 2, 2012 8:05:58 PM

rubix_1011 said:
Quote:
Those who have everything rarely create anything, but those who have nothing, find a use for everything **Disclaimer, no Rubix, its not a sigline **


Still sig-worthy.


Definitely sig worthy eh rubix!

Moto is our resident genius sig creator!
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a c 190 K Overclocking
June 2, 2012 8:27:09 PM

Hehe, its nice to be appreciated guys :) 
maybe thats my piece of immortality, wisdom in the form of internet signatures :p 
Moto
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a c 232 K Overclocking
June 2, 2012 9:09:29 PM

Motopsychojdn said:
Hehe, its nice to be appreciated guys :) 
maybe thats my piece of immortality, wisdom in the form of internet signatures :p 
Moto


It would be even better if you could turn it into a profit!

Facebook was originally just an idea, and look at it today.

www.Moto_Motisms.com
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June 5, 2012 4:20:38 AM

Haha well Moto I haven't made my sig yet so with your permission I think your wise words could fill that gap considering they were loosley directed at me anyhow :p 
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a c 190 K Overclocking
June 5, 2012 8:48:57 AM

Feel free mate,
it wasn't directed at anybody, its just an oberservation,
on reflection its just another way of saying 'necessity is the mother of invention' I guess but if you want it for a Sigline go for it :) 
Moto

Palindromic Sig of the day.
The true master is an eternal student is the true master.
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June 5, 2012 8:55:52 AM

haha should make a sticky up the top called "moto's motos" and have a daily sig donation :p 

one question i wanted to raise while your on moto, i just made a thread asking recommendations on fans from my supplier, i'd really appreciate it if anyone made a contribution haha :/  i just dont want to pick the wrong set.
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a c 190 K Overclocking
June 5, 2012 9:05:19 AM

Lol,
'Need a sig? Click here'
I saw the 90cfm@19Db fan query, I'm not sure on them being that quiet tbh, but can't see them being a bad buy, you have fancontrollers to lower them if needed
Moto
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a c 326 K Overclocking
June 5, 2012 4:09:44 PM

I see the Jedi Master Yoda achieved his new level.

Quote:
The true master is an eternal student is the true master
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a c 190 K Overclocking
June 5, 2012 5:23:36 PM

^you likey?
I was saving it but I need another 100k points for the Master status,
:p 
Two and a half thousand more points, I'll allegedly be an expert....
Moto
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