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Question about ATI cards

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December 9, 2009 11:40:25 PM

Well iv just built my very first computer 5 months ago,

i7 920
ud4p
6gb ddr3
1tb

etc, well my gtx 285 that i had first went faulty, in the end i was offered credit as a suitable card could not be found.

So now i have 500(AUS) to spend on a card (running off 7800gt atm)
I was looking at some cards and saw the new HD 5000 range, and everyone was saying how great they were.
Why are they so cheap? i was looking at the ATI Radeon™ HD 5870 for only 200dollars!

My mate at school said to always go for nividia as there trustworthy, that ati cards run hot, ati cards are known to crash alot etc

Im slightly leaning towards ATI cards

So are they great cards?

More about : question ati cards

December 9, 2009 11:56:11 PM

Yes, they are fine. Some do run hot, but they were designed to. And if you get ones with good cooling, they are not hot at all. I think the new 5800s are quite cool. Driver problems are very rare now and more or less on par with NVidia, but these are still fairly new cards and all new cards have some bugs. And where do you see a 5870 for 200 (AUS) ?!?
December 9, 2009 11:58:36 PM

Wow, are you sure you can get a 5870 for only 200 dollars?

Oh and your mate doesn't know what he is talking about. The 5870 runs cooler than the GTX 285 and ATI cards do not tend to run hotter or crash more than nVidia cards. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with an ATI card or a nVidia card. If you think that I'M the biased one, then check the sig. because I'm running nVidia as we speak.

And yes the 5000 series are great cards.
Related resources
December 10, 2009 12:13:09 AM

EXT64 said:
Yes, they are fine. Some do run hot, but they were designed to. And if you get ones with good cooling, they are not hot at all. I think the new 5800s are quite cool. Driver problems are very rare now and more or less on par with NVidia, but these are still fairly new cards and all new cards have some bugs. And where do you see a 5870 for 200 (AUS) ?!?


AMW1011 said:
Wow, are you sure you can get a 5870 for only 200 dollars?

Oh and your mate doesn't know what he is talking about. The 5870 runs cooler than the GTX 285 and ATI cards do not tend to run hotter or crash more than nVidia cards. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with an ATI card or a nVidia card. If you think that I'M the biased one, then check the sig. because I'm running nVidia as we speak.

And yes the 5000 series are great cards.



Thank You for the replys, i will now go for a 5870 for 600dollars, yea i kinda got the models mixed up lol i accidentally put the hd 5770

So the HD 5870 or a gtx 295?
there in same price range kinda with the 295 bit dearer
December 10, 2009 12:29:20 AM

The 5870 is about the same as the GTX 295 in peformance, but since the GTX 295 is an older card and the 5870 a new one, the 5870 will gain some performance yet. Also the GTX 295 is obsolete since the 5870 uses DX 11, something the GTX 295 can't. Lastly, the GTX 295 is a dual card and not a single card meaning it is more likely to have problems like glitches, crashes, performance issues, and heating problems then the 5870.

The 5870 is better in every way, just get it, it is worth more money than the GTX 295 easily.
December 10, 2009 1:29:22 AM

Yep, agree with AMW. I see few reasons to get the 295. If you really wanted an NVidia card, wait the 2 months to 6 years for the GTX300 line to come out.
December 10, 2009 1:46:02 AM

rhysdalegend said:
Thank You for the replys, i will now go for a 5870 for 600dollars, yea i kinda got the models mixed up lol i accidentally put the hd 5770

So the HD 5870 or a gtx 295?
there in same price range kinda with the 295 bit dearer


here's what THG says:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-graphics-card,...

"Essentially two conjoined GeForce GTX 275s, the GeForce GTX 295 offers very notable gains over the Radeon HD 5870 in the great majority of game titles, although the Radeon will use far less power doing so."

If you expect that you will upgrade GFX again before XMas 2011, I'd say get the 295. If you expect to keep the card longer than two years, better future proof yaself as, if DX11 turns out to be "the next big thing" , you'll be left out once DX11 goes mainstream in early 2012




December 10, 2009 6:05:51 AM

rhysdalegend said:

So the HD 5870 or a gtx 295?
there in same price range kinda with the 295 bit dearer


Well the GTX295 definitely isn't worth more money, it's a card for right now, not 6 months from now.
The HD5870 ties it on performance, but beats it in features and longevity.

"Anyway, the new ATI card seems to be a better buy. It is more economical than the dual-chip flagships of the previous generation and is free from their main drawback – the dependence on software support for multi-GPU technologies."

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-h...

Seem to be little reason to go with the GTX295 at this late stage of the game.
December 10, 2009 6:56:26 AM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
Well the GTX295 definitely isn't worth more money, it's a card for right now, not 6 months from now.
The HD5870 ties it on performance, but beats it in features and longevity.

"Anyway, the new ATI card seems to be a better buy. It is more economical than the dual-chip flagships of the previous generation and is free from their main drawback – the dependence on software support for multi-GPU technologies."

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-h...

Seem to be little reason to go with the GTX295 at this late stage of the game.

The HD 5870 it is, this will be my first ati card, hope it turns out good! lol my first actual gpu was a gtx 285 which died after 2 months of fun, so cant wait.

Seems there all sold out, looked all round, seems ill have to wait a bit ):
December 10, 2009 7:24:47 AM

Well depending on your motivation the HD5850 is a little more than equal to the GTX285 in performance, and more on features, if you prefer not to wait, it's solid and you might be able to save yourself some money if you wanted to game sooner rather than later.

You could also buy the GTX295, but it depends on your needs/wants and supply/demand.
December 10, 2009 9:50:03 AM

JackNaylorPE said:
here's what THG says:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-graphics-card,...

"Essentially two conjoined GeForce GTX 275s, the GeForce GTX 295 offers very notable gains over the Radeon HD 5870 in the great majority of game titles, although the Radeon will use far less power doing so."

If you expect that you will upgrade GFX again before XMas 2011, I'd say get the 295. If you expect to keep the card longer than two years, better future proof yaself as, if DX11 turns out to be "the next big thing" , you'll be left out once DX11 goes mainstream in early 2012


With all due respect, that makes no sense. Those "notable" gains aren't very notable and besides, the 5870 will get faster with time.

There is no sane reason in this world, no intelligent reason, to get a GTX 295 over a 5870. The quality of the actual gaming will be the same, because the 5870 doesn't suffer from the multi-card minimum framerate problem, the 5870 wll gain performance in time, and the 5870 runs cooler, uses less power, and has DX11. If you are so inclined you can also overclock the 5870 by amounts unthinkable on a GTX 295.
December 10, 2009 12:24:57 PM

ati developed a bad rep because there drivers were not so good fro a while, but theyre just fine now, ur sure its not the 5770 ur seeing for $200?

anneway, go nvidia if you can, ive started recommending them since theyre the underdog for the moment, gtx275 is a wonderful card, and i find nvidias control pannel is easier to use than catalyst.
December 10, 2009 1:02:08 PM

They're aren't the underdog yet in overall sales, so I see little reason to pity them yet.
December 10, 2009 2:00:42 PM

xaira said:
ati developed a bad rep because there drivers were not so good fro a while,


As bad as the GTX295's that still gets "0 fps" in 3 games tested?
Persistent driver issues is a thing of the past and still very limited to both ATi/AMD & nV (and intel and Matrox and S3), and both have immature drivers at launch but the GTX295 is almost a year old (year since paper launch), so it's not like they are clean, especially about the cards we're specifically looking at.

Quote:
anneway, go nvidia if you can, ive started recommending them since theyre the underdog for the moment,


Why would you recommend that? You're saying that people should offer bail-outs with their hard earned money? How about sticking to the best fit for the task at hand. I don't care who the underdog is instead try to recommend the best fit. If you wanna recommend an underdog, how about MATROX or S3? Supporting nV for not brining out something to compete with AMD doesn't help anyone. A most improtantly a GTX275 would definitely be a big step BACKWARDS for him as he's replacing a GTX285.

For me the two cards (GTX295/HD5870) are very close, and neither is a 'bad choice', it essentially comes down to GMC vs Ford and whether you value OnStar or Sync, etc. But the HD5K is the new model with all the new features, and the GTX295 is last year's refresh model, which does mean that going forward there are worth differences in the two beyond the PR checkboxes.

The other thing is as he goes forward into the future, far better scaling in adding a second cheap HD5K versus trying to find another cheap GTX295 and then the poor scaling of Quad-Fire.

They're both good, but it just doesn't make much sense to recommend the GTX295 nowadays unless he can't get his hands on the HD5K and he needs something soon-ish/now.
December 10, 2009 2:43:12 PM

is it just me or did i see (running off 7800gt at the moment)? and yes, i know that a 5000 series would be best for op, but nv partners are loosing money, or arent making as much as they were, and theyre cards are perfectly fine, its not like a lack of dx11 or ifinity would kill the op, bailouts arent just up to the govt, so as long as the 5970 is ontop, ill b recommending nvidia and as long as intel is ontop ill recomend amd, xcept 4 phenom, because there was an actual fault with the product, but once the prod is find i dont c an issue\
December 10, 2009 2:52:44 PM

Competition needs to be born of mutual threat, not underdog support. Success needs to be rewarded, and used as a beacon for those who are unsuccessful. Without competition, we all lose everytime. Rewarding an underdog for failure is de-evolutuionary. There are products that deserve your money for what they are, not what they used to be, or what they can only dream of being.

If Nvidia offers me a superior product, that isn't priced out of the stratosphere, I will buy it. If they don't, I won't. Everythig is as it should be.
December 10, 2009 3:12:19 PM

xaira said:
is it just me or did i see (running off 7800gt at the moment)?


Did you bother to read the rest of the message, ie: "well my gtx 285 that i had first went faulty, in the end i was offered credit as a suitable card could not be found.", so as a replacement the GTX275 is a big step backwards for him.

Quote:
and yes, i know that a 5000 series would be best for op, but nv partners are loosing money,


Who cares? They've been losing money for over a decade on all sides of the equation, read about Hercules dropping out of the market back in the Radeon 9700 era. It's not the OP's job to bail these guys out because they have no product, it rewards st00pidity, not someone who has brought out a new product and fallen short even, which might be a far more noble thing to support than supporting a company that has done little recently to advance their own line. :pfff: 

Quote:
so as long as the 5970 is ontop, ill b recommending nvidia and as long as intel is ontop ill recomend amd, xcept 4 phenom, because there was an actual fault with the product, but once the prod is find i dont c an issue\


Then as long as you do that, I'm going to point out that people like the OP should ignore anything you have to say because you have an agenda not in keeping with the OP's needs, and your advice is as bad if not worse than a fanboi or troll. [:thegreatgrapeape:5]

Simple concept, reward good work by recommending the best product, don't recommend a POS because you have some personal agenda. :non: 
December 10, 2009 4:05:54 PM

@ xaira: please do not recommend to people things just because they're "underdogs," people, especially me, ask for recommendations/suggestions because we want the best bang of our bucks (that's also many of the articles are about)

@ rhysdalegend: i would go for the 5870, like many had said, it is a little weaker than the 295, but it has better features and the dx11 will save u from having to get a new video card in the future for dx11 games, i almost bought a 295 off someone for about $350(it was cheap and the 5870 werent in stock, so it was very reasonable to get the 295, but there were some delay on the other end, so i bought the 5870 right when newegg has them) i've been running the card for about a week now, and it is totally awesome! oh and the 295 is still a little bit more expensive than the 5870... don't know what nvidia is thinking... maybe the 5000series is still low on supplies? but still...
December 10, 2009 5:08:23 PM

They can't sell the 295 for any less and make money off of it (if they are even now). Its only purpose is to technically exist and be 'slightly' faster than a 5870. It is not meant to actually be sold any more.
December 11, 2009 1:48:20 AM

AMW1011 said:
With all due respect, that makes no sense. Those "notable" gains aren't very notable and besides, the 5870 will get faster with time.T


Argue with the THG reviewer not me.

Quote:
There is no sane reason in this world, no intelligent reason, to get a GTX 295 over a 5870.


http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/batman-arkham-asylu...

Quote:
and the 5870 runs cooler, uses less power


Odd how many posts I remember reading where and temperature were non issues when when comparing a 295 and a 4870x2

http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=711&pa...

Sorry, but I happen to agree with the THG reviewer and think both cards are quite viable choices. I couldn't criticize anyone for choosing the one that best fit their needs. Since we won't be seeing other than token support (read "I can put on the box that I am DX11 compliant but I didn't really invest anything into it") for DX11 till Fall 2011, DX11 compatability is really not that important..

THG's November "Best GFX cards for the Money" roundup includes only 2 category "wins" for an ATI 5xx series cards whereas the ATI 4xxx series cards take 10 wins and nVidia takes 4 wins ? Seems THG doesn't think DX11 is all that important over the near future. Again, given the choice between the argument you have presented and those THG roundup results, I gotta go with THG on this one.




December 11, 2009 3:10:32 AM

JackNaylorPE said:

Odd how many posts I remember reading where and temperature were non issues when when comparing a 295 and a 4870x2


Not really, considering the faster card also used less power and thus generated less heat and also lower temps, so what exactly was Odd about that? :heink: 

Other than it doesn't really have anything to do with this situation where the power and heat differences are quite significant and the performance differences are nowhere near as significant, therefore the tie breaker is the things people focus on.
Pretty easy to see why it gets more mention than when there was a distinct advantage for just one solution.

Quote:
Since we won't be seeing other than token support (read "I can put on the box that I am DX11 compliant but I didn't really invest anything into it") for DX11 till Fall 2011, DX11 compatability is really not that important..


Got any links or reviews to back up that time line? Seems like the nV line about it for the Fermi fans.
Interesting how PhysX offers no more than 'Token support' for physics and a pretty dead future, yet you cheerlead that pretty heavily. :wahoo: 

For someone who's advocating upgrading before Xmas 2011, it's interesting you would recommend the one solution that would have little benefit from a dual card configuration, and have little resale value in the DX11 future after already having a higher purchase price. :pfff: 

So what's it that's favouring the GTX295 again? ~5% performance difference in some games? :heink: 

December 11, 2009 11:49:51 AM

AMW1011 said:
If you are so inclined you can also overclock the 5870 by amounts unthinkable on a GTX 295.

Do you kwon that the GTX295 OC better than the HD5870? The GTX295 can be overclocked about 17% and the HD5870 about 10%.
December 11, 2009 9:25:13 PM

Ive already given links that show 10-20% driver improvements on perf for both nVidia and ATI cards after 1 year.
So, the 295 already is used up, whereas the 5870 is just starting to come into its own.
The 5% that the 295 does win in will disapate, and itll lose in other games, thus making it a lessor option that runs hotter, uses more power and has no current option, DX11.
Id only recommend a 295 for those who refuse to buy ATI
December 11, 2009 10:23:01 PM

Do you know the ETA on the 9.12 driver set? I'm curious to see if the potential shown in the Betas made it through to the final set.
December 11, 2009 10:38:37 PM

Havnt checked lately.
Look up RFlair heheh
December 12, 2009 12:30:00 AM

Wow, that's cool. I'll have to check there periodically from now on. I guess we'll know soon whether the full team was on vacation as well.
December 12, 2009 1:18:51 AM

Bah, what does Terry know !?! :lol: 

Hey, I just happen to be flying in to T.O. for the 16th or 17th.... Hmm beer run to Thornhill ! [:thegreatgrapeape:3]
December 12, 2009 2:48:41 AM

JackNaylorPE said:
Argue with the THG reviewer not me.

Quote:
There is no sane reason in this world, no intelligent reason, to get a GTX 295 over a 5870.


http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/batman-arkham-asylu...

Quote:
and the 5870 runs cooler, uses less power


Odd how many posts I remember reading where and temperature were non issues when when comparing a 295 and a 4870x2

http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=711&pa...

Sorry, but I happen to agree with the THG reviewer and think both cards are quite viable choices. I couldn't criticize anyone for choosing the one that best fit their needs. Since we won't be seeing other than token support (read "I can put on the box that I am DX11 compliant but I didn't really invest anything into it") for DX11 till Fall 2011, DX11 compatability is really not that important..

THG's November "Best GFX cards for the Money" roundup includes only 2 category "wins" for an ATI 5xx series cards whereas the ATI 4xxx series cards take 10 wins and nVidia takes 4 wins ? Seems THG doesn't think DX11 is all that important over the near future. Again, given the choice between the argument you have presented and those THG roundup results, I gotta go with THG on this one.


The reasons not to buy a GTX 295 over a 5870 are not individual, they are accumulative. I would mostly agree with you except that the GTX 295 has all those shortcomings, only barely outperforms the 5870 which will become a non-issue with better drivers, and, the deal breaker, costs at least $100 more. If we were comparing a GTX 295 and a 5870 at the same price I still would not think that the GTX 295 is worth it, but I could see the point, but not at the current prices.

As for PhysX, it is a non-issue because it is dead. The DX11 compute shader is a multi-platform solution which renders PhysX useless.
December 12, 2009 2:55:45 AM

The 295 is also completely sold out on Newegg, making it even harder to buy than a 5800.

And it is a real shame NVidia decided to make PhysX a marketing gimmick. It had potential back when it came out, but now we must wait longer for a compute version to be made.
December 12, 2009 11:05:04 PM

AMW1011 said:
As for PhysX, it is a non-issue because it is dead. The DX11 compute shader is a multi-platform solution which renders PhysX useless.


Well if you're right, I guess we can go to the December GFX card round up on the THG home page and see the DX11 cards sweep all the "best in price range" categories.....oops.....what's this ? .... we have 13 DX10 cards (8 nVidia and 5 ATI 4xxxx) winning the "best choice in price" categories and just 2 DX 11 cards taking a category ????

Doesn't seem to me that the authors are much in agreement with your position.
December 12, 2009 11:22:18 PM

The word of Tom's is not law. Besides, I am not saying that the 5000 series are the best, I am not saying that DX11 will come in handy anytime soon. My points are simply thus:

1 For the minuscule performance difference and the disadvantages of heat, power, scaling, stability, and features, the GTX 295 is absolutely not worth the extra $100 by any means.

2. PhysX, with its presence only really felt in 2 titles currently, is already dead because any game coming out in the near future will be able to utilize the compute shaders of DX11, which is a cross platform technology that will entice a larger user base.

December 13, 2009 12:56:45 AM

AMW1011 said:
The word of Tom's is not law. Besides, I am not saying that the 5000 series are the best, I am not saying that DX11 will come in handy anytime soon. My points are simply thus:

1 For the minuscule performance difference and the disadvantages of heat, power, scaling, stability, and features, the GTX 295 is absolutely not worth the extra $100 by any means.

2. PhysX, with its presence only really felt in 2 titles currently, is already dead because any game coming out in the near future will be able to utilize the compute shaders of DX11, which is a cross platform technology that will entice a larger user base.


No it's not law but it does come across as unbiased. THG and the other sites I am visiting just don't see DX11 being anything big for 2 years. As industry outsiders, you and I are outside the sources of information that "insiders" have. And when I see a company like EVGA building and marketing special PhysX cards w/ 2 different GPU's, you have to wonder "what they know".

The GTX isn't $100 more than the 5870....your pricing is outta date, you've just about doubled the actual cost difference based upon what the article is quoting.

Shaders don't do PhysX ... shaders don't make walls explode, carry thousands of broken bits , do steam and fog, do cloth waving in the breeze and leaves all blowing outta the way when your toon runs by......they do shadows ... like the border on a frame in a word processor makes it look more 3D.

Also, with all major consoles supporting PhysX, which is easier for a game developer to put on the table ? The PHysX effort gets to share development economies of scale with XBox, PS3 and Wii versions.

All I want is for people to be able to make their own value judgments w/o having anyone else's value system pushed upon them. You like DX11, great, I wouldn't wanna talk you outta it....personally, looking at the Heaven DX11 benchmark, I had to look at the captions under the pictures to "notice" many of the effects which DX11 provides. Looking at the video on the firingsquad site, though I will probaaly never play Batman, all those steam, flag, glass, exploded bits things were stuff I never seen before....I didn't need a caption to see the difference in what I was seeing.

If I like Corona and you like Budweiser, no reason we both can't have a beer and each get what pleases our own pallet. Take my word for it, I don't need you to like the same thing as I like before I buy you a beer. But if you're buying, please to make me drink a Colt45 cause tho you may love it, the taste just doesn't appeal to me. The cost may not be worth it to you but it very well might be to someone who enjoys what they enjoy.
December 13, 2009 1:06:27 AM

JackNaylorPE said:

Doesn't seem to me that the authors are much in agreement with your position.


Oh noes !!1!! Chris and Don don't agree with him/us, whatever will we do? :sarcastic: 

Perhaps think about it for a moment, in that PhysX is something that is a DETRIMENT to graphics performance, the BEST PhysX setup for ANY rig (AMD or nV) is adding a second card as a PPU, so the argument and it's use in reviews is BS for people looking for checkbox features, not people who actually want to game, and a PhysX fanboi would get a better experience from and HD5870 + GTS250 for physX all for the same price as that single GTX295, which having to do the PhysX load and graphics load at the same time would kill it and likely bring it down to GTX285 levels of performance if you're lucky (it's already struggling with memory and now 256MB is gone for PhysX ?).

That will get you better performance, better features, and better resale value, and even probably give you about the same power consumption since you're so intent on that (remember once again no comparing equal performance either).

The GTX295 is a dead fish and even the PhysX argument doesn't work when you actually think about the cost of that debris PhysX and the fact that it really is better left to a dedicated card (GPU or PPU), not the graphics card doing your graphics workload.
December 13, 2009 1:15:08 AM

JackNaylorPE said:
No it's not law but it does come across as unbiased. THG and the other sites I am visiting just don't see DX11 being anything big for 2 years. As industry outsiders, you and I are outside the sources of information that "insiders" have. And when I see a company like EVGA building and marketing special PhysX cards w/ 2 different GPU's, you have to wonder "what they know".

The GTX isn't $100 more than the 5870....your pricing is outta date, you've just about doubled the actual cost difference based upon what the article is quoting.

Shaders don't do PhysX ... shaders don't make walls explode, carry thousands of broken bits , do steam and fog, do cloth waving in the breeze and leaves all blowing outta the way when your toon runs by......they do shadows ... like the border on a frame in a word processor makes it look more 3D.


The lowest price on a new GTX 295 from a reliable store:
http://www.jr.com/pny/pe/PNY_VCGGTX295SX/

Also you know NOTHING about what you are talking about bro. Physics are classically done by the CPU and PhysX allows the GPU to process the physics as well as the CPU, by utilizing the shaders as multiple processors. Compute shaders allow all DX11 cards to do most CPU task such as artificial intelligence, calculations, and PHYSICS.

I have no true interest in what people buy, but I, just like you, express our opinions to educate others and to discuss. The thing is, until you can back up your opinion with evidence and not just the opinions of others then it will remain just that, an opinion.

Despite all this, understand that I have come to respect most of your opinions and value your contributions, I just can't agree on your opinion.
December 13, 2009 1:35:23 AM

JackNaylorPE said:

The GTX isn't $100 more than the 5870....your pricing is outta date, you've just about doubled the actual cost difference based upon what the article is quoting.


Actually pricing is current, NewEgg listed, cheapest 5870 $409, cheapest GTX295 (out of stock) is $509 so at minimum $100 difference (plus tax), and for the only GTX295 in stock it's a $290 difference. So his figure is pretty accurate, regardless of what old articles quote as the price at the time of their writing that you're using. :non: 

Quote:
Also, with all major consoles supporting PhysX, which is easier for a game developer to put on the table ? The PHysX effort gets to share development economies of scale with XBox, PS3 and Wii versions.


GPU physX is on NONE of those consoles, not event he one with the nVidia GPU, so one again, you're talking apples & oranges, and it'd be just as easy to make the PhysX layer OpenCL or DirectCompute as it would be to make it work on the Wii (which is a complete recode) and the only reason nV would try to keep it to CUDA would be to interest those who can't figure out that Phys isn't a reason to get a graphics card anymore than Eyefinity is a reason for the average user either. :heink: 

For the 2 years nV has had PhysX, they have done little to make it any more compelling than it was when it was a PPU solution under Ageia, which doesn't speak well for the future either. :pfff: 

Quote:
All I want is for people to be able to make their own value judgments w/o having anyone else's value system pushed upon them.


That's not what you want, it definitely doesn't reflect your posts even in this thread.
BTW, you know how people make their own value judgments? They listen to all the information provided by all side and all the counterpoints, and then they make their OWN decisions, saying that above is a cop-out trying to stifle AMW from replying as if you have a moral high ground wanting something he couldn't possible want either. Same when you try and discredit his pricing.

You aren't seeing it from both sides as you say, cause if you were you would've come to the conclusion in my post above this that it's better to get a GTS250 with the HD5870 and get EVERYTHING than pay the same or MORE for the GTX295 and get much less. :pfff: 

And your beer analogy sucks, because those are all terrible beers for the mid-class, even from those breweries. No one is trying to make you drink Colt 45, or Old Speckled Hen, but we are telling you to stop telling people that the reason they should buy a beer is for the free coasters that comes with the 6 pack as a sign of quality. [:thegreatgrapeape:5]
December 14, 2009 12:56:17 AM

AMW1011 said:
Also you know NOTHING about what you are talking about bro. Physics are classically done by the CPU and PhysX allows the GPU to process the physics as well as the CPU, by utilizing the shaders as multiple processors. Compute shaders allow all DX11 cards to do most CPU task such as artificial intelligence, calculations, and PHYSICS.


Just think about what you are saying......use DX11 cause it's new technology and you gotta have new technology in order to do things "classically".....talk about a classic oxymoron.....classic = old like in classic windows UI. My classic car was built before you were born. Classical music was composed by guys who died 100's of years ago.

We are talking real world today....not "the old days". DX11 isn't going to do squat for a PhysX encoded game. Do you know what tesla does ? This is the age of GPU computing. GPU's are being used in supercomputing to do advanced scientific modeling for the specific purpose of taking the load OFF THE CPU ! To do work that is done faster and more efficiently on a GPU than on a CPU. That's the whole idea.

http://www.gpucomputing.eu/
http://gpgpu.org/

Both of the most popular game engines in use on the PC today - Unreal Engine 3 and Gamebryo - support PhysX, and almost a year ago EA and 2K Games signed on with their support.

Your DX11 won't do squat for a PhysX encoded game. Try looking up the Cryostasis reviews for example where the best a any ATI card could manage was a measly 11 fps.....every single ATI card in the test gets the same score cause the GPU can't do squat. The GPU can't decode PhysX and it must be done by the CPU.

Now if you are going to argue that you know everything and I know nothing because "in the future" game developers are going to use DX11 to do physics instead of PhysX well then I have nothing to offer in response as I make it an habit never to try and argue with people who know the future.

It's simple.....if someone likes PhysX and they get enjoyment out of the features that are not offered on any other platform, what's your beef ?
December 14, 2009 1:18:10 AM

JackNaylorPE said:
Just think about what you are saying......use DX11 cause it's new technology and you gotta have new technology in order to do things "classically".....talk about a classic oxymoron.....classic = old like in classic windows UI. My classic car was built before you were born. Classical music was composed by guys who died 100's of years ago.

We are talking real world today....not "the old days". DX11 isn't going to do squat for a PhysX encoded game. Do you know what tesla does ? This is the age of GPU computing. GPU's are being used in supercomputing to do advanced scientific modeling for the specific purpose of taking the load OFF THE CPU ! To do work that is done faster and more efficiently on a GPU than on a CPU. That's the whole idea.

http://www.gpucomputing.eu/
http://gpgpu.org/

Both of the most popular game engines in use on the PC today - Unreal Engine 3 and Gamebryo - support PhysX, and almost a year ago EA and 2K Games signed on with their support.

Your DX11 won't do squat for a PhysX encoded game. Try looking up the Cryostasis reviews for example where the best a any ATI card could manage was a measly 11 fps.....every single ATI card in the test gets the same score cause the GPU can't do squat. The GPU can't decode PhysX and it must be done by the CPU.

Now if you are going to argue that you know everything and I know nothing because "in the future" game developers are going to use DX11 to do physics instead of PhysX well then I have nothing to offer in response as I make it an habit never to try and argue with people who know the future.

It's simple.....if someone likes PhysX and they get enjoyment out of the features that are not offered on any other platform, what's your beef ?


That is not what I meant, the rest of the context of that comment was in an above post. DX11 compute shaders are not better because they are new, they are better because they can do everything PhysX can plus multitudes of other applications. That isn't even the point though, the point is DX11 WILL WORK ON BOTH NVIDIA AND ATI HARDWARE, not just nVidia like PhysX which makes PhysX a proprietary application that has the potential to alienate a large chunk of the consumer base.

How many games will be using DX11? Yeah, almost all the ones that will be released after 2012 and many before 2012. Yes PhysX is supported by Unreal Engine 3 and Gamebryo because up until a month ago, PhysX WAS THE ONLY TRUE OPTION.

My argument is that people should enjoy PhysX now while they can, but not to make long term decisions based on it because it wont be relevant for much longer. I'm all for slapping in a 9600 GT for some PhysX in Batman or Mirrors Edge, but don't buy an nVidia card for PhysX over any DX11 card, ATI or, eventually, nVidia, because that DX 11 card will be able to do it itself, in likely more titles, for a longer period of time, and with better results. To be honest, if there is another game that comes out that uses PhysX in a meaningful way like Batman AA or Mirrors Edge I'll be somewhat surprised, but I promise that you wont see anything after that.

Jack, regardless of this I see you making valid points and level-headed discussion elsewhere and I respect you, so lets please try to keep this from being any more heated.
December 14, 2009 1:22:48 AM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
GPU physX is on NONE of those console........[:thegreatgrapeape:5]


All consoles support PhysX technology.

http://www.nvidia.co.uk/object/physx_faq_uk.html
"PhysX software is widely adopted by over 150 games, is used by more than 10,000 developers of all types and is supported on Sony Playstation 3, Microsoft Xbox 360, Nintendo Wii and PC. PhysX is optimized for hardware acceleration by massively parallel processors."

http://news.softpedia.com/news/NVIDIA-and-Sony-Sign-Agr...
http://news.softpedia.com/news/NVIDIA-Offers-PhysX-SDK-...
http://www.aeropause.com/2009/03/nvidia-takes-physx-to-...

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-physx-sega-capc...
"Darkest of Days will be released in fall 2009 for the Xbox 360 and Windows-based PCs"

http://nintendo.joystiq.com/2009/03/20/nvidia-expands-p...

http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=34402
PhysX technology works across all major gaming platforms, including Nintendo Wii, Playstation 3, Xbox 360, and the PC, and can be accelerated by both the CPU and any CUDA™ general purpose parallel computing processor, including NVIDIA GeForce® GPUs. The massively parallel architecture in GeForce GPUs can handle 10 to 20 times more visual complexity than what’s possible today on traditional platforms, and can leverage the best of both GPU and CPU architectures to deliver the ultimate experience to the user. More importantly, NVIDIA PhysX technology will deliver faster performance and richer environments based on the number of GPUs or CPUs in the PC, or the varied computing capacities of today’s console platforms.

http://nvidia-physx.software.informer.com/9.0/
PhysX software is widely adopted by plenty of games. It is used by more than ten thousand registered users and is supported on Sony Playstation 3, Microsoft Xbox 360, Nintendo Wii and PC.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/17/nvidia-licenses-phys...
NVIDIA has just announced that it has nailed down a tools and middleware license agreement for Sony's PlayStation 3, effectively bringing the aforesaid physics tech to what's arguably the most potent game console on the market today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhysX#Games
100+ PhysX games

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX...
3 DX11 games

And, by the way, I don't drink beer and rarely play games......perhaps this will help you understand the concept of allegory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory
December 14, 2009 1:56:12 AM

AMW1011 said:
Jack, regardless of this I see you making valid points and level-headed discussion elsewhere and I respect you, so lets please try to keep this from being any more heated.


Agreed. I build boxes for many types....mostly it's for CAD guys and GIS peeps. I soon then wind up building or suggesting components for the kids boxes. Most of my time spent there is "de-culting" people from the absolutes they have gotten from friends, kids at school and forum posts with little fact and lots of emotion. I am just as happy to throw a ATI card in a box as an nVidia one....as long as it gives people what they want. people ask questions, I say go watch the PhysX video .... if you want that, pick a budget and then an nVidia card that fits that budget. It's not up to me to decide whether they like it or not.

And I am very happy that ATI has two years running swiped the performance crown at XMas time. I rooted for the Red Sox against the Yankees (I live in NY, so you can imagine how that was) and I rooted for Chicago the next year......nVidia has held a public mindset similar to Intel's as Intel (and nVidia) had "mindshare" as a performance leader to AMD's (ATI's) "value leader".

Now look at the December rankings ....nVidia owns all the low spots and ATI doesn't come on till the high end with only the 260 and 295 holding any kind of mention. This puts the two companies on more even ground which is the best thing for the consumer. If ATI could just get their production up while nVidia is stalled, they could really catch up in market $$ and force lower prices for years to come.

DX10 was a complete flop. I think we are all hoping DX11 gives us something to get excited about. With a 2 + year development cycle for any really good game, it's gonna be a while before DX11 makes it's impact .... unless one really good game comes out and smashes that assumption down. Then again, Halo 3 was supposed to do that for Vista and DX10, it didn't. It's hard for me to put great faith in DX11 when "I ain't seen nothing yet".

Most of the people here change video cards every two years. At this point in time, for those people, a 4870x2 or a GTX 295 is still a fine choice. I am what I like to call a "hardware whore" ..... here's how I pick memory ... drill down thru newegg filters 240 pin, to DDR3-1600 etc and then pick CAS7 ---- sort on best price ....lowest price from reputable vendor wins. I just don't see any logic to "future proofing" against 3 years from now when most of us won't have that card in 2 years anyway. Of course, like the THG author's in the article, if your plan is to go 3-4 years, my advice ..... don't risk the buyers remorse, ya can always grab a 260 or something if ya get the itch to do PhysX.

Maybe because there's only two choices but with vid cards, sometimes it's like a religion. People have the logos as avatars, they will argue one way one month that power and heat don't matter and the flip flop when their deity comes out w/ a product reverses the field. Twice today I have seen it stated that the 5870 "outperforms" the 295 .... numbers are what they are.... there's no gray area. I don't do 'religion" in any shape or form ...well I guess you could call me a Pastafarian.

http://www.venganza.org/
December 14, 2009 2:32:44 AM

JackNaylorPE said:
Agreed. I build boxes for many types....mostly it's for CAD guys and GIS peeps. I soon then wind up building or suggesting components for the kids boxes. Most of my time spent there is "de-culting" people from the absolutes they have gotten from friends, kids at school and forum posts with little fact and lots of emotion. I am just as happy to throw a ATI card in a box as an nVidia one....as long as it gives people what they want. people ask questions, I say go watch the PhysX video .... if you want that, pick a budget and then an nVidia card that fits that budget. It's not up to me to decide whether they like it or not.

And I am very happy that ATI has two years running swiped the performance crown at XMas time. I rooted for the Red Sox against the Yankees (I live in NY, so you can imagine how that was) and I rooted for Chicago the next year......nVidia has held a public mindset similar to Intel's as Intel (and nVidia) had "mindshare" as a performance leader to AMD's (ATI's) "value leader".

Now look at the December rankings ....nVidia owns all the low spots and ATI doesn't come on till the high end with only the 260 and 295 holding any kind of mention. This puts the two companies on more even ground which is the best thing for the consumer. If ATI could just get their production up while nVidia is stalled, they could really catch up in market $$ and force lower prices for years to come.

DX10 was a complete flop. I think we are all hoping DX11 gives us something to get excited about. With a 2 + year development cycle for any really good game, it's gonna be a while before DX11 makes it's impact .... unless one really good game comes out and smashes that assumption down. Then again, Halo 3 was supposed to do that for Vista and DX10, it didn't. It's hard for me to put great faith in DX11 when "I ain't seen nothing yet".

Most of the people here change video cards every two years. At this point in time, for those people, a 4870x2 or a GTX 295 is still a fine choice. I am what I like to call a "hardware whore" ..... here's how I pick memory ... drill down thru newegg filters 240 pin, to DDR3-1600 etc and then pick CAS7 ---- sort on best price ....lowest price from reputable vendor wins. I just don't see any logic to "future proofing" against 3 years from now when most of us won't have that card in 2 years anyway. Of course, like the THG author's in the article, if your plan is to go 3-4 years, my advice ..... don't risk the buyers remorse, ya can always grab a 260 or something if ya get the itch to do PhysX.

Maybe because there's only two choices but with vid cards, sometimes it's like a religion. People have the logos as avatars, they will argue one way one month that power and heat don't matter and the flip flop when their deity comes out w/ a product reverses the field. Twice today I have seen it stated that the 5870 "outperforms" the 295 .... numbers are what they are.... there's no gray area. I don't do 'religion" in any shape or form ...well I guess you could call me a Pastafarian.

http://www.venganza.org/


You see a lot of people are nervous of DX11 because of DX10 and I keep hearing "Well DX 10 didn't amount to anything", but they forget that neither did DX8, look how long DX9 lived and it still lives today. The entire Vista/DX10 was a failure thanks to bad business decisions. DX10 was a failure in particular because it was modified at the last minute to pacify a particular company, not naming any nVidia's... erm I mean names, because that company could not deliver a product that could make the original DX10 work. The original DX10 had a lot of the exciting things that DX11 now has, but they were taken out which made the difference imperceptible. Note that I do not hate nVidia though that certain episode pissed me off, I in fact bought 2 $300 GPUs from them. Regardless I have high hopes for DX11 and thanks to the adoption of Win. 7, the simultaneous release of DX11 and the 40nm technologies of GPUs, and the whole "OH WOW THIS ONE SAYS 11 IT MUST BE BETTER !!!1111" mentality of the mindless sheep some call consumers and that isn't even mentioning all the exciting advantages that can be utilized in future games with DX11. Regardless, who really know what will happen.

As for those who take brand favoritism as if it is a religion, it truly is getting old. At least in the GPU section of PC hardware, the favoritism is more about false myths about either brand than in the CPU section where it is truly ridiculous with AMD's smoothness and megatasking abilities, ect.
December 14, 2009 4:07:36 AM

PhysX as an enhancable feature through Nvidia Hardware, and PhysX as a language and method of achieving physical effects on game environments as used in a console, are two different things.

When a console is "capable" of using PhysX, it is just as capable as using "Havoc" as found in many more titles, it is running a game designed by that standard.This is not the same as the extra stepping of environmental effect that having a dedicated PhysX card allows in a limited amount of PC titles.

Pleae do not confuse the two again, it dilutes your argument, and makes you look uninformed.
December 14, 2009 5:57:06 AM

JackNaylorPE said:
All consoles support PhysX technology.


Re-Read what I wrote and try to understand WHY it matters you PhysX PR TOOL!

NONE OF THE CONSOLES USE GPU PhysX !! [:thegreatgrapeape:2]

ANY PC can use CPU PhysX ! :hello: 

Instead of just Cutting and Pasting PR clips from Wiki and the nV's site, perhaps it would be better if you knew WTF you were talking about ! [:thegreatgrapeape:6]



I see your Wiki quote (which is wrong) and raise you "Transition to DirectX 11 Will Be The Fastest Ever";
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/200912111204...
Which you can't argue with because as you said previous, you don't know anything and you'll leave it in the hands of the experts. :kaola: 

Quote:
And, by the way, I don't drink beer and rarely play games......perhaps this will help you understand the concept of allegory


No, it's actually more helpful in understanding why you don't know WTF you're talking about Wiki-boy ! :pfff: 
Go boot up a game and have a beer! [:thegreatgrapeape:3]
December 14, 2009 6:30:44 AM

JackNaylorPE said:

Both of the most popular game engines in use on the PC today - Unreal Engine 3 and Gamebryo - support PhysX, and almost a year ago EA and 2K Games signed on with their support.


Actually UnrealEngine3 also has it's OWN physics engine for the GAME physics, the PhysX support is limited to the debris physX in most of the titles that have UE3 as the base. And Gamebryo uses BOTH PhysX and Havoc (Oblivion/Fallout3 is Gamebryo and Havoc)

Quote:
Your DX11 won't do squat for a PhysX encoded game.


Except for render the graphics, which is still the most important thing for a graphics card to do, debris physics can be hacked in like it already has been for DX9/DX10 games.

Until GPU accelerated PhysX can actually do game physics, it's simply a checkbox that isn't worth considering when buying a graphics card, especially when the best solution would still be to buy a dedicated card for it, just like in the Ageia days. Even nVidia knows this, which is why they try to lock people out with their dfrivers, because they know their graphics hardware isn't compelling enough without trying to force people into it. :lol: 

December 20, 2009 11:10:37 PM

Ok guys the HD 5000 series finnaly stocked up down in australia, so the choice will be soon. Why is it that my old gtx 285 is only 20 dollars cheaper and its more expensive when i first got mine (about 5 months ago). Personally im not a fanboy for anyone, i just go for what shows good potential, in this way nvidia will not get anything from me, unless there new series will be in the same price range as ati (ie. affordable). look at there old cards now (285,295) there still extremely dear. id expect less. So for now ATi have shown great longevity, performance and at a resonable price.

if i need the extra performance i could just crossfire it (be cheaper later on).
December 20, 2009 11:37:15 PM

Well tbh...the gtx285 cost more to make and if Nvidia were still making them they would still cost more to make.

ATI have been in total control of the graphics market for well over a year now, even though that hasn't played out in terms of market share. Nvidia are basically clinging on to their market share on reputation alone...but they are also losing money while trying to cling on to it.

If it wasn't for Tegra Nvidia would have gone belly up months ago.

In terms of desktop/laptop gpu's? ATI are so far ahead it's not funny anymore. There simply is not a single Nvidia graphics card worth buying unless you cannot get the equivalent ATI due to stock shortages.
December 21, 2009 1:32:27 AM

jennyh said:
Well tbh...the gtx285 cost more to make and if Nvidia were still making them they would still cost more to make.

ATI have been in total control of the graphics market for well over a year now, even though that hasn't played out in terms of market share. Nvidia are basically clinging on to their market share on reputation alone...but they are also losing money while trying to cling on to it.

If it wasn't for Tegra Nvidia would have gone belly up months ago.

In terms of desktop/laptop gpu's? ATI are so far ahead it's not funny anymore. There simply is not a single Nvidia graphics card worth buying unless you cannot get the equivalent ATI due to stock shortages.


I wouldnt say it was well over a year. Obviously the last couple of months it has been ati all the way, but since before then I'd say it was pretty even.

And for the laptops I always thought nvidia was dominating that part of graphics. I always thought that the had better cards for the laptop, heck I havent even heard of a high end ati laptop graphic card. Obviously nvidia has the 9800m, gtx260m, gtx280m, but I dont know a single ati card (except the mobility 4850?), even if ati is dominating that sector it doesnt seem they are doing a good job making their presence known in the mobility sector.
December 21, 2009 6:05:40 AM

impaledmango said:
I wouldnt say it was well over a year. Obviously the last couple of months it has been ati all the way, but since before then I'd say it was pretty even.

And for the laptops I always thought nvidia was dominating that part of graphics. I always thought that the had better cards for the laptop, heck I havent even heard of a high end ati laptop graphic card. Obviously nvidia has the 9800m, gtx260m, gtx280m, but I dont know a single ati card (except the mobility 4850?), even if ati is dominating that sector it doesnt seem they are doing a good job making their presence known in the mobility sector.


I have seen laptops with 4870x2s in them.
December 22, 2009 1:06:47 AM

I agree about it being even at the upper level, but even there ATi has been driving the market and the pricing, even if they haven't benefited from that control. However...

impaledmango said:

And for the laptops I always thought nvidia was dominating that part of graphics. I always thought that the had better cards for the laptop, heck I havent even heard of a high end ati laptop graphic card. Obviously nvidia has the 9800m, gtx260m, gtx280m, but I dont know a single ati card (except the mobility 4850?), even if ati is dominating that sector it doesnt seem they are doing a good job making their presence known in the mobility sector.


ATi dominated, and really dominated the Graphics market before, but it was after the X1K series that nV got ahead, and then ATi struggled to get some of their parts out, however recently ATI has taken over the volume lead, and the top spot would be taken by the HD4870X2 like found on the ASUS W90.

I will agree with you that they do a pi$$ poor job of marketing pretty much anything they do well, but really it shouldn't matter when giving advice whether their PR is effective or not in promotion, just whether or not their product does the job, which it does for now, although I wish they would get off their but and bring out the HD5K series laptops so I can spend some Xmas bonus cash on a nice corei7 DR for my next laptop. :sol: 
!