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Water Cooling? Mineral Oil is KING for NO NOISE and great Temperatures

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June 18, 2012 2:15:32 AM

so whats up with that...

ok you dont loose warranty with water cooling and its very stationary..

but still... no noise? it like an iphone, but with waaay more power...
gaming pc which is 100% quiet? not even consoles manage that..

its like a dream come true for me.. over 20 years in this industry, it was never possible... now it is!
and it makes me want to screw my warranty (im very annoyed by the sound of my pc ;)  )

also with aquarium like cases we would have a great amount of customization, way more than any case could provide..
besides fishes and real life plants we basicly can use everything..

so i wonder why is there no market for it?

it looks great, is very durable and makes no sound, no matter how hard its working..
i mean cmon.. this is big market im talkin about here..

whats your reason not to have a mineral oil cooled pc ?!??

i mean its not like fish aquarium which needs work, this just sits and works for you..
man i have to build a company around that...
a b K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 2:21:42 AM

Because people dont want to void warranties as soon as they install their gear.
June 18, 2012 2:26:00 AM

My reason for not having a mineral oil PC is because of the oil. You have to submerge everything in it and that's messy if you eventually decide to do any work or upgrades on the PC. It would also be very heavy and, therefore, difficult to move around. How would you clean off the components if you decided to remove and replace something. Mineral oil doesn't evaporate like water or alcohol do.
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a c 190 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 3:05:20 AM

There is already a company that provides mineral oil kits, Puget systems
I wouldn't consider it because its messy, Pita to swap gear out, and you can't easily clean it off old gfx cards to sell them on,
And mostly because the thermal properties of oil compared to water are pathetic, its very hard to get the heat out of oil
Where is the heat going? You need some way to cool the oil or you are just going to cook your system, quite literally
Moto
a c 190 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 3:53:44 AM

This one was so enthusiastic, I almost thought it was a trollbot for an oil Pc company :-)
Moto
a b K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 4:02:41 AM

Rather then mineral oil which btw doesn't dissipate/spread heat very well just get a WC loop and shove the rad in an icebox, then refill with ice as necessary.

Or you could go with the other alternative, get quieter fans / sound dampening things for the inside of your pc.
June 18, 2012 6:04:29 AM

yes puget is selling expensive kits, i saw them
but yeah they have experience since 2007 in that sektor..
back then ssd werent as cheap as today so you always had the problem with hdd sound.. also i heard of it back then when someone used olive oil which is gross..

im currently looking to upgrade my pc, would buy new mobo, cpu and ddr3 and case.. so i found this mineral oil thing which is even cheaper than a nice case..
sure its maybe not a good idea to submerge it untill warranty runs out...

but believe me, once its in there you wont need to get it out again, ever!
its like conserved in there.. im sure purge will write in 10 years that they v2 system is still running.. it just works..

i guess its the same like with cars and gas, there is a lot of other things which noone has to buy anymore if you wouldnt need to fix/upgrade stuff cuz of gas usage, so the big companys dont support it...

imagen i create motherboards, have very good connection to cpu creators or maybe even create them myself.. i dont do mobo in usual "today known" design, i dont know, put them in a small can and fill it with oil.. you get the idea..
maybe already very far reached but still..

so what i buy good items, i dont expect to use the warranty anyway in time.
but yeah there are always bad sheep that need rma, or just have a good stability test befor submerging...

maybe as company i make a deal with another company and provide warranty on sold "aquarium" pc's


ill defnetly submerge my old single core 2 ghz pc
its the perfect bedroom pc...

any kind of fans will make noise, oiled pc's dont..
icebox is silly, too expensive and too much work

you spread heat with a simple flow created by cpu and gpu fans
another bubble/flow generator from real aqariums would help from time to time..
fast rigs may need a radiator,
but i guess you dont have to let the fans run the whole time.

upgrading is no problem, take a towel, some gloves
and depending on your setup just pull it out and install what you need.
sure its not ideal,
but hey, its soundproove the whole time, you can do this once a year

but also i think, you just dont upgrade the system anymore, buy a new one...

but you wont need to since it will hold forever...
its like fish in oil in a can, in 20 years still fresh...
air makes things corrosive and old..
install oil filter and you wont ever have to worry about this rig again, im sure!

and i dont know much about watercooling,
but what i saw always had alot of loud fans..

so pro:

mineal oil setup is cheap
100% noiseless
very good looking
doesnt need cleaning (only outside)

neg:

stationary and hard to move once set (only currently, there is alot of room for inovations)
upgrading kinda messy (same as above)
loose warranty (maybe fixable)

ill look throu the collected topics now thanks...
a c 190 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 6:26:27 AM

**sure its maybe not a good idea to submerge it untill warranty runs out...**
Totally sensible approach there :) 
its fine to do as a project with older gear for fun, but I wouldn't risk new hardware on it,
*Edit to reflect Ryans current set up**
4Ryan6 has a set up involving ice and it performs very well, and recently he was inspired to go for an external radbox as well, and improved performance even further,
Both he and I have large loops, and I know mine is almost silent, I would say his is more than capable of it as well

Rubix is one of the most informed and capable W/c guys here and his initial statement may have seemed dismissive, but thats only because we get a lot of mineral oil threads and we tire of repeating ourselves,
We support and work on a lot of cooling ideas including sub-ambient water (with and without ice)
fire extinguisher reservoirs and even ssd watercooling on one current build, but oil just is not a viable solution for long-term use on any reasonable hardware,
with a good couple of hundred watts from a good Gpu and Cpu, you need to get rid of that heat, not just let it build up in the tank,
post back after you've read through the links but I personally cannot recommend oil-submerged Pc's as anything other than a fun experiment on old gear
Moto
June 18, 2012 7:47:56 AM

do you guys know the tv show "tanked"
its great and gives alot of inspiration.

this is like a fish tank, i believe even less work.

first i saw was this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eub39NaC4rc&feature=rela...

and also how he assembled everything, clever idea with the 2nd container..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DDW3RYVjko

ive then watched these guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJdUhtD1zns&feature=rela...
very informative..

took a look at this setup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4jaY8LT5wA&feature=rela...

and became convinced after watching/reading this guys setup
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuNkB_8fJeY&feature=rela...

then i scooped over to http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php
and read their story..

after that i wrote here..


i think, its enough testing.. its prooved working very good.
even more than a fun project...

build a serious container with proper backplate for power supply and mobo
add 4 wheels to the container and you can even move it around without problem.

people dont want a diy, they want the finished product they wont have to care about... pugetsystems dont provide that.. nobody does...i see dollar signs lol

hm, maybe all i need is a great "mineal oil case" lineup ...
so still diy, need to do a pricecheck...

i see you are concerned about heat, but its prooven to work,
check purgesystems v4 system..

im sure its not too hard to cool the oil down..
also from the review it took 12h at full power to reach a high temp
still they say, its running up to day...
and with their radiator it was contantly at around 50 with low fans..
you could make it temp contolled or something..

but yes i see the point, nobody can risk something goes wrong
and loose the brand new $600 gaming pc, submerged and fried in oil :D 

but lets talk htpc, touchscreen hosts, door/window opener or whatever..

what a perfect way to recycle old computer.....
a b K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 8:14:56 AM

The key to oil submerged pcs is choosing parts that don't get hot and either using no gpu or something like a 5450 at most.

So for an HTPC it would probably be fine with say a 65w pentium G

It takes substantially more effort to push around heat in baby oil then air or water.
a c 224 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 9:21:46 AM

Motopsychojdn said:

4Ryan6 had a set up involving ice and it performed very well until he was inspired to go for an external radbox instead, and improved performance even further,
Both he and I have large loops, and I know mine is almost silent, I would say his is more than capable of it as well
Moto


Moto, I'm still using the ice with the CPU cooling, the radbox is cooling the GPUs.

**********************************************************************************************

@polymesh

Most wouldn't go the oil route simply because;

It's too messy.

Oil eventually will go rank.

A leak can be a furniture or flooring killer.

It's too messy.

Lost Warranties.

You cannot submerge everything.

It's too messy.

If the oil doesn't flow it's cooling is minimal.

It's just not practical, and mostly done for show.

If it was at least the Queen of cooling solutions maybe more would try it, it definitely is not the King of cooling solutions, maybe the Jack of cooling or possibly the Joker.

You never seem to see anyone posting, I'm going for my 2nd oil cooling setup?

Wonder Why?

Did I forget to mention, It's too messy.


a c 78 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 2:23:24 PM

in short - ITS TOO MESSY :p , :lol:  trollbot - for an arab rich kid maybe :p 
June 18, 2012 2:36:28 PM

but is it really too messy?

more messy than lets say a fishtank..
people do have fishtanks in their home..


like i said, gloves, a towel and a proper case (not a modified fishtank)

i think its more messy and by messy i mean work
to operate WC , to install, maintaince and contant checkups
not to mention what happens if water leaks.

so the oil route is not really more messy, you install it once and forget about it..

it is by no means a perfekt solution right now..
but thats what im saying, thats were the market is..


like you could put wheels on it
and that the mobo/power comes out of the oil per engine on rails
it will always hover above the tank while upgrading or whatever you need it outside for..
it wouldnt create any mess, just dripp back into the tank.
stationnary fixxed, messy fixxed.. warranty fixxed if you take 3 year old gear.

untill now noone had a really good reason that it wouldnt be king if propper used.

there is like a million things you can create a flow with in the tank
and also alot of ways to cool the oil (if even needed) than only a radiator..
but radiator works, on timer, temp controlled and/or manual fan controled
also price is only 1/3 of WC and 1/10 or WC work

now cmon, any real reasons ? :D 

a b K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 2:39:41 PM

Youll still have to change out the oil from time to time, seriously unless its old gear, its a dumb idea. Computer enthusiasts always look for the best and most efficient way to cool their gear so they can push it to its limits. Do you think maybe all the reasons listed are reasons that oil cooling isnt more prevelant? Its gimmicky. Thats all it is.
a b K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 2:43:21 PM

I just can't think of any real way to cool the oil effectively, you would need atleast 3 times the power of a normal WC pump to get the same amount of flow, not to mention you would need to put some delta fans in there so it directs coolant flow towards the pump (I'm thinking have an external radiator to an ice chest)

But then again you could just do that with normal water cooling aswell :/ 

And your portable idea is pretty moot aswell, since the components would be bumping each other (psu bumping mobo, ssd, etc) not to mention you would most likely want to disconnect any drives that are laying ontop before moving it. I feel safer when I know things are bolted down.

Also you might not be able to use a high end graphics card because there is no support screws holding it to a case, it would torque the mobo.
June 18, 2012 2:49:27 PM

ryan do you have pics or vids of the ice setup? i may youtube or check out your profile..


vrumor, im not talkin about enthusiasts, every one of these can build it themself..
im aiming at all the people with no knowlege about whatsoever..
only turn pc on and off and know how to browse..

this is the perfect system, it doesnt need maintance, like i said, u install and forget about it.. and its NOISELESS (like that wouldnt matter, in fact its a major deal)

you dont need to change the oil if you install "oil filter" simple, effective


if you carefully read my posts, i smashed all the reasons..

again, read at purgesystems what they did at pax

use imagination and really think about it..
a b K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 2:51:39 PM

Its gonna really suck when you have to replace a fan. (Which I assume will be often as fans aren't designed to run under such high viscosity)
a b K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 2:51:51 PM

But the problem is, people who arent enthusiasts arent gonna give a rats ass about oil cooling. Again thats why it isnt more prevalent.
June 18, 2012 2:51:55 PM

@mouse24, i allready mentiond proper case, where everything has a place, and a engine to get it out of the oil...
a b K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 2:55:03 PM

polymesh said:
@mouse24, i allready mentiond proper case, where everything has a place, and a engine to get it out of the oil...


That... tells me nothing... Cooling liquid such as this requires more then hurr durr push fluids around, eventually they will reach a max temp and everything will heat up, depending on the components this could be fatal.

Its equivalent to putting fans in a case with no intake or exhaust holes.
June 18, 2012 2:55:51 PM

@mouse, ok power of radiator is too much, nice one.. ill look into that
but also, on a 8h a day usage you dont need a radiator..

@vrumor, is it true?
i think once people see it, they want it,
but currently cant have.. there is currently no proper solution..

the design, noiseless and possible customizations are big seller..
a b K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 3:11:26 PM

polymesh said:
@mouse, ok power of radiator is too much, nice one.. ill look into that
but also, on a 8h a day usage you dont need a radiator..

@vrumor, is it true?
i think once people see it, they want it,
but currently cant have.. there is currently no proper solution..

the design, noiseless and possible customizations are big seller..


/slowclap

Well you certainly have changed my mind about this, indeed it appears I will need to go on a long spiritual journey to rethink many aspects of my life. Regardless once I come back, I swear to you.

I.
Will.
Be.
The.
Best.
Pokemon.
Trainer.
Ever.
June 18, 2012 3:28:38 PM

ur welcome :) 
June 18, 2012 3:33:07 PM

IMHO, you are a solution insearch of a problem.
a c 190 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 3:34:56 PM

Ryans build can be seen in the 'exploring sub-ambient cooling' sticky up top

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/275185-11-exploring...

My builds not as hardcore as his, but well above the average W/c loop in my opinion,
the thing is that the people who are willing to strive for the very best temps and silence are also willing and able to spend serious money on it, and devote countless hours to dropping that Delta-T just a few more degrees is well worth xxx in dollars/Gbp and six weeks of no sleep, post it notes everywhere and looking at everything around you thinking hmm, how can I get that into my loop?

the people who cba to pursue this route opt for H100 coolers, its still the cool appearance of W/c but relatively low-risk,
and you have to remember that cooling enthusiasts in general make up a tiny proportion of Pc users, extreme coolers even less
One last time,

Oil is messy
Oil's heat transference properties are pathetic

I would ask another question here though,
How many experienced, knowledgable and usually helpful W/c'ers does it take to convinve a person that a chosen cooling route is completely wrong?
Btw, The Earths kinda roundshaped, not flat anymore :) 
Moto
June 18, 2012 3:38:23 PM

I've got a couple of negatives...

Mineral oil wicks up cords. Meaning it will penetrate equipment that you did not intend to submerge. Like DVD drives and wall sockets.

It is a Class IIIB Combustible Liquid. Meaning a part failure could create enough heat to set the entire thing on fire...

Without a radiator, fan, and pump your entire rig will heat up to temperatures that are far above ambient.

a c 324 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 3:39:53 PM

I think he should just do it first and then come back to tell us how wrong (or right) we are. However, I don't think that the results he will see will have him bragging. Oil submersion gets rehashed over and over and over...it's just not a very good cooling medium compared to water.

Ever stop and think why your car is water cooled and not oil cooled?

Edit: mineral oil also degrades thermal paste meaning any cooler you have installed will fail to cool and transfer heat to the oil even less effectively, leaving incredibly hot pockets of oil that aren't going to move to be cooled.

a c 78 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 3:39:56 PM

:lol:  i needed this laughter pill! ^^ [:lutfij:3]
a c 78 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 3:47:00 PM

^ rubix - if we'll be talking about why this isn't implemented in cars - then i have tonnes of reasons, as i recently popped the hood to work on my car. However, i'm not too keen on devoting my time to a kid who still hasn't set his pokemon free...thanks but no thanks. My time is valuable.

Galeleo was killed for hypothesizing the world was round and not flat, however we're not telling you mineral oil cooling is impossible/unfeasible, its just not ... practical in any way and maybe you'll come up with a solution thats better at preventing the wick effect, spontaneous combustion and refrain us from calling you an arson/pyromaniac :) 

count me out cos i think trolls are on a roll these days.
Edited: on behalf of Modo

* we could give him some encouragement before he crys about failing :/ 
a c 190 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 3:52:32 PM

I'd alter that slightly Lutfij, its feasible just not practical in any way
Moto
June 18, 2012 4:12:00 PM

One of mineral oils common uses is in oil filled radiative heaters. Heated oil maintains it's temperature for hours.

In other words... It gets hot and stays hot! That is not a characteristic you'd want in a PC cooling design...
a b K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 7:11:50 PM

Unfortunately for the OP with the right combo of fans you can have a virtually silent PC as it is without the mess. Or even fanless if you go the same route with the type of hardware youd need to keep the temp in the oil down to acceptable levels. Its a bad idea period. Again theres a reason why it isnt more wisely in use. It looks cool, I guess, but really has no practical application for cooling PC parts.
a c 190 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 7:27:52 PM

You do have to seriously invest in W/c to get a silent rig, but Op seems to prefer a low cost, no maintenance approach, so I'll adapt an engineering maxim to fit the situation

you can have good temps, low noise or a cheap solution,
if you want a cheap solution thats quiet it won't give good temps
if you want a quiet solution that gives good temps it won't be cheap
and a cheap solution that gives good temps won't be quiet.

its a basic analogy of the W/c rules but it fits and is appropriate.
Moto
June 18, 2012 8:10:31 PM

everybody here is talking "around" the facts

but hell yeah, if a bunch of people tell me this will never work, i might be on the right track...

i never questioned anyones expertise, but some people seem to not like having no valid arguments and try the emo way of prooving points..

and if thats all the contra you come up with, well, then we have a winner..

moto, you last post makes no sense as its prooved to be stable, cheap, and quiet with perfect temps

i dont know why you dont see it, think outside the box..

heat paste? you dont need that..
oil comming up your cables? its not true, use a connector and no worries.
no dvd drive in this setup, dvd is too noisy..
fans generating heat? a cmon please.. use no fan, generate flow with pump

from what i see, most you guys are not very well informed about this topic..
make sure to watch the youtube videos i posted and read purgesystems review..

they started this in 2007, its 2012.. dont sleep....
June 18, 2012 8:30:13 PM

that there is no mess is prooven in the 2nd video i posted.. dont tell me its messy..

and i already posted a improoved version of it above..

now here is something for the guys with money:

why not have hydraulikpumps get the rig out of the oil.. thats impressive..
a c 324 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 8:34:24 PM

Then go ahead and build 2 exact systems:

watercool one, oil submerge cool the other

Tell me the sustained load temps of each.

You seem very quick to attack those who are trying to offer advice, so perhaps this thread should simply be closed until you come back with some concrete evidence that this works as well as you are claiming? Puget systems is by no means the only ones to have tried this and even they have mentioned this isn't the most straight-forward or easiest to maintain system (along with dozens of others who've also tried this).

Quote:
heat paste? you dont need that..

Please explain why?

Quote:
oil comming up your cables? its not true, use a connector and no worries.

How do you know it's not true? And use 'what connector'?

Quote:
use no fan, generate flow with pump

Flow to...where?
June 18, 2012 8:50:07 PM

i attack someone? if something i defend myself, but not even that, talkin straight facts here..

btw low noise cooler, low noise is not no noise..
also can you suggest a good brand?
every cooler i owned became very noisy after half a year..


you dont need heatpaste because you dont need the whole cpu cooler unit in a oil rig,
that was already done 2kx with olive oil..
people keep the cpu cooler to generate a flow without the need of setting up other cooler/fans or a flow system
same goes for gpu cooler, you dont need it, but its cheap flow..

please take your time and read the complete history..
http://www.pugetsystems.com/mineral-oil-pc.php

but in the last part of 2008:

Overall, the biggest downside we have found is that the oil wicks down the cabling and makes a mess. Its amusing at first to find oil seeping out of your mouse, but gets annoying very quickly! We recommend making extensive use of wireless (especially bluetooth) for a system like this. There's no reason why you can't run only a power cord and video cables to the box, and take care of everything else wirelessly. We completely solve this issue later with our V2 system under development. Every day, we're coming up with improvements we'd like to make to the machine.

i thought i read about simple "make the cable longer" connectors in this history somewhere, couldnt find it now, maybe it was one of the youtube descriptions..

flow to where?
flow inside the tank is enough for normal usage

power usage would need a radiator,
or just have the oil run trou your freezer, why you ask me, come up with your own idea :p 
a c 324 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 8:52:33 PM

Quote:
flow to where?
flow inside the tank is enough for normal usage

How are you going to cool the oil that has absorbed heat?

Quote:
power usage would need a radiator,
or just have the oil run trou your freezer, why you ask me, come up with your own idea

The freezer idea is another one that isn't plausible as most people think it would be.

BTW...I read through the entire Puget systems several times over the past several years...I'm quite familiar with it.
a c 324 K Overclocking
June 18, 2012 8:58:57 PM

This topic has been closed by Rubix_1011
!