Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

I see ghosting on all LCD's! Response time a crock.

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
Share
December 21, 2009 7:05:15 PM

I've seen ghosting on every LCD I've ever owned, & 1 HDTV. That equals 5 LCD's. Though I did find what kind of monitor 100% fixes ghosting for me (read final paragraph).
I was so fed up with ghosting that I started buying only the best LCD's. LG, Samsung Syncmaster, etc.
My current monitor is a 24" LG Flatron that I paid nearly $400 for last year. Yet it does absolutely no better or worse with ghosting than my small generic HDTV I have sitting beside it which probably runs at 8ms if not higher.
I ran them together in clone mode, & how the hell the LG doesn't smoke this thing as far as ghosting is beyond me.

That said, this LG monitor is really nice otherwise. I'm just starting to come to the conclusion that my eyes pick up ghosting more than other peoples eyes, which is a phenomenon that can happen.
Or, perhaps the problem is that the games I play are very prone to even the slightest ghosting.
I make & play pinball games for the pc. A ball that on a CRT monitor always traveled smooth as silk, now on LCD's the faster the ball goes, the more it has "comet trails".
Super annoying.
& I can even detect notieceable ghosting just by moving my cursor fast. By moving it around fast, I can sometimes see 5 cursors on the screen at the same time. The last trailing ghost cursor being more faded than the others. This, to me, is the definition of ghosting.

My rig specs are fine, for anyone that might suggest that its not my monitors causing the problems. Also my test software is running at well over 2,000 fps. I get this ghosting on multiple computers, all pretty high end, mine is very high end, & I see it in many different apps/games & despite trying different gpu's. It is 100% clear that it is not my hardware (other than monitor).

So I'm pretty much sick & tired of even the brand name LCD makers claiming that their 5ms or 2ms response times do away with ghosting completely.
I know that its probably a crock, but I believe it anyhow, maybe cuz I want to believe it.

Anyhow, so when I first complained about this, I was told to get a good Syncmaster. I did, & it does the same thing. However, there might be something to this theory that it isn't visible to everybody.
I ran a test with my pinball table, a ball traveling insanely smooth at over 2,000 fps. I got 2 other people to watch my screen as I did his, & asked them if they saw the ball give off comet trails. I saw this plain as day, but they said they didn't really notice it.
I was blown away, I though they were kidding me, but of course they weren't.

I'm really curious as to why this is never talked about. Hasn't anybody figured out yet that ghosting can be an illusion not seen by all people.
& has it been talked about that even the brand name 2ms LCD's that cost an arm & a leg can still produce ghosting as much as a 16ms LCD?

Its actually kinda funny. Last night I went on ebay & ordered a nice Dell Ultrasharp 2407WFP-HC. Bye bye TN panels! So here I am trying to eliminate ghosting, & I actually choose to go with a monitor with a 6ms response time & ditch my 2ms response time!
Hey, like I said, my 2ms ghosts as much as my 2nd LCD sitting next to it, which is generic, old, & may have 16ms. & they say that anything 6ms & under that you shouldn't notice ghosting anyhow, & I do notice it at 2ms, so what the hell do I have to lose trying out a super high quality monitor like the 24" Ultrasharp?
I don't care about response time, I just care about if the ghosting is better or not. Also, there is more to ghosting than what many consider to be a meaningless grey to grey response time.

My LG's & Samsung's are nice monitors that most people would love & see no problem with. & aside from the ghosting I see, I do like them, good color & viewing angles, good brightness & contrast.
But my thought with getting the Ultrasharp is that I'm gonna keep my expectations low. I know I may see ghosting on that LCD as well, but luckily I do work with graphics & photo's, so the better panel & accurate color reproduction from the ultrasharp is gonna benefit me. & I'm sure if it does have ghosting that it won't be any worse than what I see on all my lesser monitors.
Also, I can really make use of the ultrasharp portrait mode, so I should be happy regardless.

As for the LCD that has ZERO ghosting for me! Its our 42" HDTV! Response time is like 6ms on that, but that isn't what eliminates the ghosting.
What eliminates it is the 120hz tech! Its a nice LG 1" thick 42" HDTV, & the 120hz tech is well done on it.
I started up my ghosting test software (my pinball app) on my laptop, where I absolutely see ghosting. I then hooked the laptop up to the HDTV via VGA.
Then on the big screen I play my game, bat the ball around, & thanks to the 120hz I get ZERO ghosting!!!
Just sucks that there isn't any 120hz monitors. A couple have been released at 22" that do 1680x1050. But I need 1920x1200 rez usually found in 24".
So if this ultrasharp still gives me ghosting, I'm sure we will start seeing these 120hz monitors in 2010, & when I good one comes out, I'm gonna snag that bad boy!
Also these 120hz monitors apparently support nvidias steroscopic 3D thingy, a nice little bonus!
a b U Graphics card
December 21, 2009 7:33:28 PM

Response Time is a measure of how fast (in the VERY best case) a given pixel can change state from one color to another color. So a 8ms moniter can physically have an individual pixel change state 1/.008 = 125 times per second. So in thory, an 8ms moniter can support a 120Hz Refresh Rate [the number of times a moniter can Physically accept an incoming video signal].

The problem is across certain parts of the color spectrum, and certain parts of the screen, the Response Time will be far lower then the listed spec. As such, when you combine a high Refresh Rate with a lower Response Time [or vice-versa], you get ghosting.

I generally double the listed Response Time when figuring out the maximum supported configuration without ghosting. A 8ms moniter is good for 60Hz, a 4ms moniter is good for 120Hz, and a 2ms moniter is good for 240Hz. The problem is that these figures are still incorrect, as I've seen plenty of 8ms moniters show ghosting at 60Hz (although far less frequently then their 16ms cousins...).

Farthermore, most firmware for LCD's contains some sort of anti-ghosting mechanism to try and hide ghosting, farther complicating the process. Fact is, ghosting to some degree is a fact of life on most LCD's, the question is weather or not its noticable. 120Hz does not eliminate ghosting, I've tried a few and found them horrendous in that category...
m
0
l
a b U Graphics card
December 21, 2009 8:04:55 PM

Many LCDs have something like overdrive, whcih is often on by default. This tends to greatly increase the colour reproduction but absolutely destroys responce time. I have not been able to notice ghosting on any of my LCDs so long as this is turned off. Though it greatly reduces the colour quality if you are doing photo work (not that anyone should be doing photo work on a TN display).

In all cases, the responce time will be a measure with overdrive features off, and can be an order of magnitude different than with it on.
m
0
l
December 21, 2009 8:29:44 PM

Response time have nothing to do with refresh rate. It's a measure of how fast a pixel goes from black to white if I remember correctly. That you have two miliseconds don't matter with your refresh rate, let's say 60Hz or 120Hz for new televisions.

The thing is that 120Hz refresh rate actually render a really more fluid picture, but it doesn't mean you aren't going to see ghosting.

I purchased my Viewsonic VP930B for 450$CAD back then, and I got really few ghosting. Easily the best LCD I have seen by far with all the HDTVs I have seen. The image quality is great and with some tweaking, the blacks are really nice, but it's actually a real 8bit panel instead of a 6bit panel using technics for achieving a false render of colors.

If you want to find a really good LCD panel, drop your hand in your pocket because it's going to cost you a lot.

Also, a TV will never be able to beat a real computer LCD screen of high quality. Size is one thing, but for features, we will pass on...
m
0
l
!