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3GB/s HDD on a 6GB/s MB

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a b V Motherboard
August 9, 2010 9:37:11 AM

can a 3GB/s HDD run on a motherboard advertised for 6GB/s HDD?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

More about : 3gb hdd 6gb

a b V Motherboard
August 9, 2010 1:27:42 PM

Yes, Sata6 is backward compatable with Sata3 HDDs. You just will not get the "speed" of sata3. it's like pluggng a usb1 thumb drive into usb2 - it works, but only at the Usb1. None of the mechanical HDDs will operate at sata 6 speed. Some of the new HDDs advertised as sata 6 only benefit during burst mode. Some of the "new" SSDs will benefit, but as of yet very few out there. SSDs in raid0 can beneft, BUT you lose win 7 Trim command when using SSDs in Raid configuration (currently Trim is only supported in AHCI mode).
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a c 177 V Motherboard
August 9, 2010 2:23:22 PM

Quote:
can a 3GB/s HDD run on a motherboard advertised for 6GB/s HDD?

That's precisely what it is - just advertising! The SATA3 controller is, in fact, slower than the Intel ICH - for any hard drive: some benchmarks... It may become useful for SSDs, but there are only a few of those, so far, that can break the SATA2 speed limit of 3G/s, and most of 'em are still plagued with firmware problems!

The actual driver situation with the Intel ICHs regarding TRIM pass-through is that the controller can be in RAID mode, but trim will only pass-through to single drives; i.e., you could, say, run and SSD to boot and run apps, and then a pair of large drives in RAID1 to protect your data - and the SSD would get TRIM'd; however, if you want to run a pair of SSDs in RAID0 for the boot duties, TRIM goes 'poof'!
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a c 716 V Motherboard
August 9, 2010 4:19:09 PM

Quote:
can a 3GB/s HDD run on a motherboard advertised for 6GB/s HDD?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...


Yes ~ a "SATA2" HDD/SSD can run on a "SATA3" port, but you'll have the best results (benchmarks, etc) running it on a "SATA2" port.

No ~ "Run as Advertised" no SATA2 HDD can break the 300 Mb/s / Device limits of SATA2 {that I'm currently aware of} much less SATA3 speeds. Both the 3GB/s and 6GB/s are indeed only limits of the throughput of SATA2 and SATA3 respectively.

BTW ~ Currently, there are only a few SATA3 SSD (Solid State Drives) that can actually break the SATA2 limit, and for Reads-only.

Good Luck!
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August 9, 2010 11:26:56 PM

So in a case with the Ga-x58a-ud3r that have the marvel controller 6gb and my hard drives 1. Wd blue 500g 16mb sata2 & wd black 1tb 64mb sata3 - I understand from reading upper posts that it's beter to connect this drives to the ich controller and not to the marvel that will slow them down at least the data 3 drive !?

In a setup that 500g need to be system/apps and 1tb need to be havey duty real time audio recording and samples drive , what will be the best controller/drives config regarding my mobo ?
Thanks
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a c 716 V Motherboard
August 9, 2010 11:53:50 PM

Connect SATA2 -> SATA2 ports and SATA3 -> SATA3 ports {most efficient ; Visa-Versa have degraded efficiency}. Audio {RAW} ~ as long as you're not pushing more data than your HDD can write your okay. DO NOT confuse Port Speed with HDD Write Speed. I know just a "little" about audio ~ so you'll need to calculate how many channels you're simultaneously recording ~ determine/convert to Mb/s and make CERTAIN your HDD can handle the {sustained} bandwidth.

Ideal Ports - http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/278015-30-mobo-ideal-...
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a c 177 V Motherboard
August 10, 2010 12:23:35 AM

Put your primary boot drive on ICH port 0 (SATA2_0 on the board); put your data drive on ICH port 4 (SATA2_4), and leave the drive controller in IDE mode. This allows the ICH controller to operate as two, seperate, physical controllers - one for each drive, simultaneously. Turn off the other controllers - especially the Marvell! Be carefull what you allow into your start-up, and your services - the main killer of audio/video streams is deferred procedure call latency (google 'DPC Latency', or just take a peek here at the TheSycon), which, in turn, is often caused by layers of garbage that you never intended running on your machine! BTW - beware of Apple, their software is one of the main offenders :fou:  !!

Assuming the standard 44Khz sampling rate, a 24bit sample (28 bits to record), and stereo, you're looking at a data stream around a quarter megabyte/second - no problem at all...
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a c 716 V Motherboard
August 10, 2010 1:15:32 AM

A single uncompressed 3~4 minute, Pro-Grade audio multi-track can be 400MB~600+MB easy. So it can indeed be an issue. Which is the reason for my answer ~ depends on the Number of Channels.

- A past acquaintance owned a recording studio.

I disagree with the ports, some folks simply don't like SATA3.

As an owner of an Apple Mac Pro ~ all my A/V stuff ~ Huh?? Windows is perfectly fine, but Huh?? Movie Directors use MacBook Pro to rough cut their movies ~ Huh??
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a c 177 V Motherboard
August 10, 2010 3:25:47 AM

Do you do math? No wonder your stuff is filled with random approximation signs! 400MB ÷ 180 sec = 2.2MB/sec ; and that's got to be eight channel, at an 81Khz sample rate, which is not necessary for human beings - maybe bats! 2.2MB/s x 8 = 17.6 Mb/s; lemme see here, SATA2 is what, 3Gb/s?? Excuse me, that's two orders of magnitude's difference! In addition, you're not doing eight channel recording with an crappy little CODEC you're gonna stick in a UD3R!

Idiot, I'm talking about Apple SOFTWARE - you install iTunes (if the latest version doesn't break your DVD drive, causing it to show recorded info as blank disks, as so many are finding out the hard way!), you get two unwanted services installed, one of which continuously polls your harware to see if, just maybe, you've plugged in your freaking iPod, or iPhone, or iBuyWhateverCostsTheMostToImpressMyFriends, meanwhile piling up the DPC queue... The 'artsy' types use Apples because they're painfully hip, not because they understand anything about hardware. Real video editors run rendering boxes, usually under one flavor or another of Linux, employing hardware transcoders, if not an array of stream cards...
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a c 716 V Motherboard
August 10, 2010 3:37:49 AM

You do the math ~ Google some more. Some Pro-Grade mixes are 20+ channels of overlaying (layered) tracks. Ever see a Pro Mixer - some are 10' long full of separate tracks (channels); I am not nor are you remotely experts in Pro Audio recording.

IF the OP is doing a handful channels of Novice level mixing then, duh no problem. 7.1 digital may have started as 50-200 tracks that are post processed (down-sampled) to the Final Product (8 channels).
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August 10, 2010 6:37:23 AM

Well I understand exact what u both saying here my data Sata3 drive will need to read and write at max it can do - bilbat why not to use ahci over ide and the sata3 drive in my case is better on ich then sata3 controller ? Btw for the bad apple stuff I just install a partition with snow on top lol ;)  anyway it's very important for me to understand what u mean on the ich and IDE and not achi and to turn off the non ich controllers please need more from ur magics ;) 
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a c 716 V Motherboard
August 10, 2010 2:01:15 PM

Just last week someone benched port + drive SATA2 <=> SATA3; each performed optimally on "its" own type. Hackintosh :sol: 
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a c 177 V Motherboard
August 10, 2010 4:46:32 PM

First, let's tackle AHCI vs IDE modes. Because of command queueing, the AHCI does show a slight performance advantage over IDE, for some drives, with some file sizes, at some queue depths! In the real world, however, almost all benchmarking is done with a single drive. If you take the (wise) path of using one drive for your system and apps, and another for your data (or, in my case, one RAID0 pair for my system, another RAID0 pair for my swap file, and a third RAID1 pair for my data...), the improvement in performance comes purely from the fact that, in IDE mode, the ICH controller is actually two, seperate, physical controllers - one with four ports, the other, two - which can operate, in essence, simultaneously for each disk! When configured in either RAID or AHCI mode, the controller reverts to a single physical controller with six ports - which can only carry out one thing at one time...

There are two overwhelming reasons to use AHCI: first, if you are running an SSD, the win 7 TRIM commands (vital to both performance and longevity of SSDs) require AHCI mode to be passed through to the drive; second, if you are using an eSATA port, AHCI gives you hot-plug - the ability to just plug in a drive, and have it recognized by the OS, without reqiring a boot cycle to accomplish the recognition. If neither of those apply, and you are running two drives, I always recommend ports zero and four in IDE mode to take advantage of the controller's 'split'...

Now, as for the SATA2 vs SATA3 issue, there are a number of overwhelming reasons to avoid the Marvell. The first one is integration; the ICH controller is integral to the chipset, in fact, can be considered to be the southbridge. Every other disk controller is hampered by the fact that it has to be 'hung off' the PCIe bus - meaning there is an additional layer of hardware translation going on for every single transaction, which the drivers must accomodate. The second is, basically, longevity. The ICH is really old (like me [:bilbat:6] !) in computer time. Intel has had a half-decade of continuous development and refinement of both the hardware and the drivers - and that's only if you, like I do, consider the first ICH to be the ICH7R, introduced in '05; the original ICH hit the market in '99... The third issue is reliability, and, in this case, mostly of the driver set. The Marvell is on its first couple of iterations - the Intel drivers have been around forever! If you had a Ferrari Enzo (your data...), who would you trust with it - your 17 year-old nephew (Marvell), or your 42 year old uncle (Intel)?? The fourth issue is documentation and support. Intel publishes all the ICH specs, and updates the firware and drivers publicly and often. Marvell, on the other hand, is peculiarly closed-mouthed about everything - you want any support, any information, you're expected to rely on the manufacturer of your board - and they don't have it, either, or - are NDA'd into not making it accessible!

As for performance, the first notable fact is that, not only don't we have any hard disks that even come close to the SATA2 speed limit - but we are essentially certain not to have in the foreseeable future! There are three things that show promise for the SATA3 spec - the first is SSDs. SSD technology is advancing rapidly, and the new SandForce controllers (both the SF1200 commonly used, and, especially, the 'enterprise class' SF1500, much less often seen) are showing a lot of promise to beat the SATA2 speed limit - there are, in fact, a few products already on the market whose theoretical read speeds exceed SAT2, but they are still hampered by their firmware - same as above, with the longevity of the ICH drivers/firmware, they just haven't yet had a sufficient number of development cycles... The second promising area is the idea of 'hybrid' drives: a combination of regular hard drive technologies, with an SSD 'front-end', which acts a lot like current drives' cache memory, but is comparatively huge! I think there is only one product employing this now, but I believe SandForce has an alpha chipset/controller optimized for this useage. The third, one would think, would be the drives' cache memory itself - it should, in theory, be able to burst mode in excess of SATA2, but, in practice, this has not proven to be so - even SATA3 rated hard drives with large caches still prove to be faster on the ICH than on the Marvell!

In your case, where you want to optimize write speeds in particular, you have another option. Instead of using a single large data drive, you could buy a pair of drives half the size, and put them in a RAID0 array. The upside - the write speed, while not being doubled by the two drives, will be enhanced greatly - the downside - you roughly double your odds of all your data being lost by a drive failure... If you're using the drives as, essentially, a 'write buffer' to save mixdowns to, and then saving off the final product to DVDs, this risk may prove to be irrelevant.







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August 10, 2010 7:04:19 PM

Thats alot of a golden info !!!!! so first thank u so much :) 

after reading all this i think that in my case (no ssd drive atm and not a pair of drives to make raid - and also cuz of the downside)

i will setup this as :

ICH = IDE MODE

System Drive (multiboot - w7 64bit osx 10.6.3 win xp sp3 32bit) at ICH port Zero 0

Sample\recording drive (read and write at the maximum it can - regarding the tasks and apps) will be at ICH port four 4

and to gain the esata hot swap i will use this as AHCI - is the esata related to the ICH controller ? or im pushing it to much ? and if not as esata can i use the gigabyte or the marvel with ACHI and Hot swap ?

regarding my setup and as far as i understand - u will do this diffrent\better then that ? (reminder - no ssd and no pair for raid atm)

again thanks alot for the usefull info =)



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August 10, 2010 7:10:10 PM

I still cant edit my post so please ignore the one b4 this - =)

the edit one :

Thats alot of a golden info !!!!! so first thank u so much :) 

after reading all this i think that in my case (no ssd drive atm and not a pair of drives to make raid - and also cuz of the downside)

i will setup this as :

ICH = IDE MODE

1.System Drive (multiboot - w7 64bit osx 10.6.3 win xp sp3 32bit) at ICH port Zero 0

1.Sample\Recording Drive (read and write at the same time !!at maximum it can - regarding the tasks and apps) will be at ICH port four 4

and to gain the esata hot swap i will use this as AHCI - is the esata related to the ICH controller ? or im pushing it to much ? and if not as esata can i use the gigabyte or the marvel with ACHI and Hot swap ?

regarding my setup and as far as i understand - u will do this diffrent\better then that ? (reminder - no ssd and no pair for raid atm)

again thanks alot for the usefull info =)
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a c 716 V Motherboard
August 10, 2010 7:36:54 PM

While I am "pretty" certain you'll be okay, and I know IDE Mode will be MUCH easier to setup w/XP ~ ACHI can be done in XP. For "myself" I prefer AHCI primarily for Hot Swap and SSDs perform better {always eSATA}; be careful IF you change to AHCI in BIOS later! Again, I wouldn't be placing a SATA3 on anything but GSATA3 ports; your HDD "speaks SATA3 and translates SATA2." Bloated copy/paste answers aren't better just longer.

You can set all ports to AHCI in the BIOS.

Your car "can" run with a anchor dragging behind it.

Footnote: IF you have a copy of WIN 7 Pro, Ultimate or Enterprise you can install XP to run "XP Mode" for free - http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/download.as...
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a b V Motherboard
August 10, 2010 8:16:12 PM

In support of Bilbat's comment on ICH vs marval
Here is a "Dated" review, back in dec 09 comparing Marval vs intel chipsets.
Marvel, hopefully have updated their driver since then.
http://benchmarkreviews.com/index. [...] mitstart=7
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a c 716 V Motherboard
August 10, 2010 8:34:52 PM

Here's an updated 2010 benchmarks supporting my position {newer drivers}. I am not stuck in the past, I am in the here and today looking forward ~ and so is my advice.
HDD - http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/first_look_6gbs_s...

SSD - http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_conten...
{I own one of these, and I'd be a fool to place it on SATA2.}

per review:
Performance:
- PCMark Vantage (HDD test suite score): 45,000 (SATA 6 Gb/s), 35,000 (SATA 3 Gb/s)
- Sequential READ: up to 355 MB/s (SATA 6 Gb/s), up to 265 MB/s (SATA 3 Gb/s)
- Sequential WRITE: up to 215 MB/s (140 MB/s for 128GB drive)
- Random 4k READ: up to 60,000 IOPS (SATA 6 Gb/s), up to 50,000 IOPS (SATA 3 Gb/s)
- Random 4k WRITE: up to 45,000 IOPS (30,000 IOPS for 128GB drive)
- READ latency: 55μs (TYP SATA 6 Gb/s), 70μs (TYP SATA 3 Gb/s)
- WRITE latency: 60μs (TYP SATA 6 Gb/s), 95μs (TYP SATA 3 Gb/s)
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a c 177 V Motherboard
August 10, 2010 8:57:35 PM

Always !

The X58A-UD3R has four SATA controllers, handling twelve SATA ports, and of course, the ATA/IDE connector.

They are arranged as follows:

Ports SATA2_0 through SATA2_5 (the blue ones, at the top) are the six controlled by the Intel ICH10R - if you simply put the cable for your boot drive in either of the top two, and your data drive cable into either of the bottom ones, you will be in good shape...
Ports SATA3_6 & SATA3_7 (the white ones directly below the blue ones) are the Marvell ports - leave empty if possible...
Ports GSATA2_8 & GSATA2_9, though GB calls them "GIGABYTE SATA controller", are actually a jMicron controller, likely a JMB366, which also is responsible for the ATA/IDE connector for old-fashioned flat cables - if you have a front panel eSATA connector, you want it in this pair, as well as any SATA DVD...
A pair of rear-panel eSATA connectors, which are also controlled by a jMicron controller, this time a JMB362...

Now, in the BIOS, on the "Integrated Peripherals" page, you want to set:

"eXtreme Hard Drive (XHD)" to "Disabled"
"ICH SATA Control Mode" to "IDE"
"SATA Port0-3 Native Mode" to "Enabled"
"Green LAN" to "Disabled"... (it's problematic...)
"eSATA Controller" to "Enabled" if you actually intend to use the rear eSATA ports - "Disabled" if not...
"eSATA Ctrl Mode" to "AHCI" if above is enabled - this will give you hot-plug on the rear-panel eSATAs, doesn't matter if the above controller is disabled...
"GSATA 6_7/IDE Controller" to "Disabled" - this is the Marvell SATA3 controller...
"GSATA 6_7/IDE Ctrl Mode" - doesn't matter, as it's disabled...
"GSATA 8_9/IDE Controller" to "Enabled" - this is the port you've got your DVD and front-panel eSATA in, as well as the ATA/IDE connector...
"GSATA 8_9/IDE Ctrl Mode" to "AHCI" - this gives you hot-plug on the front-panel eSATA...

OK - I've officially exhausted (I think) all my resources here, and still cannot find a definitive list of which manufacturer's controller AHCI drivers are covered under the much-vaunted 'native' support label; between the MSDN lib and the TechNet lib, they eat about 5G of space - and nothing! Only one thing remains: I'll post a query at TechNet's forum, and MS social - see if someone inside can dig up some hard info...

It wasn't a waste of time, however; as usual, I wound up learning a lot about various other topics that will wind up being useful - like that flip-flopping the boot drive from AHCI to IDE generally is OK, but from IDE to AHCI isn't - and why - and how to fix it. I have known for a long time that it's not a problem for non-boot drives, as I do it all the time. If I keep my backup drive and my ATA-connected DVD at IDE mode, the BIOS' POST intializes them in a flash. If I plan to use the front-panel eSATA port I have on the same controller (a jMicron...), I switch them to AHCI - which costs me, probably, eighteen seconds per boot, for the option ROM (aka RAID BIOS) to initialize them instead, six or seven of those seconds sitting at a 'press any key to enter config' prompt that isn't even relevant (only does something in RAID mode), and that they were to dumb to put a configurable switch into, so you could just skip the prompt entirely!! [:fixitbil:2]

So, as I can't find reliable info on whether the jMicrons we configured in the BIOS to be in AHCI have built-in win 7 drivers, or not, we'll just have to assume they don't, and load 'em by hand...

Next topic will be configuring the drivers you'll want to load at both operating system installs. I always recommend a floppy for the driver installs, as it's the no-effort default, and the floppy will come in handy for other systems-oriented tasks, even if your case doesn't have a spot to mount one. For almost all of the systems I build for friends of friends, I use these cases, because they are fairly nice-looking, come with an attractively mounted card reader, get good airflow with a couple of add-on PWM case fans, and, best of all - they include a case speaker!! (something that has almost completely ceased to be provided...) The only regret I have about them, is they don't have a place to put a floppy - so I just lay one next to the box while I get 'er cooking!

If you don't have/want a floppy, this should all be OK to do with a USB stick, and I will include the instructions for that method as well.

Before we start, I have another recommendation for you. If you want to dual boot, I regularly tell people to pick up a copy of BootIt™ Next Generation, from Terabyte. You might want to take a look at the response of the last fellow I told about it - GA-X58A-UD3R - AHCI \ I DE Benefit ?. I will duplicate what I posted to him originally:

The win boot loader thing is just a mess. It should work, it can work - but, unfortunately, it often doesn't - or takes four tries to get it right! ...And Xp is pretty much the major 'violator' - it has a bad habit of corrupting the boot loader files of later installations (Vista or Seven)! I always recommend using BootIt™ Next Generation - it's fast, easy to configure, flawless, and has great support - oh - and it's cheap! It has excellent disk partitioning tools built in, MBR diagnostics and editing - I run nine OS's off three RAID pair:

and never a 'bobble'!

Ahem - commercial over [:lectrocrew:7]

First, if you are using a USB stick, format it to FAT-32, using the default allocation unit size. I f floppies, format two of 'em, labeling one 'Xp 32bit' and one '7 64 bit'...

Next, you will need to download a pair of files from GIGABYTE: motherboard_driver_gsata_bootdisk_32_5series.exe, and motherboard_driver_gsata_bootdisk_64_5series.exe to a temporary directory in a location you'll be able to find - desktop is a good place, as you'll only need the directory for a couple minutes. Double-click each one, accept the default location and click the extract button each time. This will result in a pair of directories inside your 'temp': GSATA_32Bit, and GSATA_64Bit. If you are using a USB stick, just copy both directories onto the stick. If floppies, the contents of each directory will show the same file names (but beware - they are different files!):
jraid.cat
jraid.sys
txtsetup.oem
xraid_f.inf
Copy the contents of GSATA_32Bit to the floppy we labeled 'Xp 32bit'; copy the contents of GSATA_64Bit to the floppy we labeled '7 64 bit'...

...temporary save...
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a c 716 V Motherboard
August 10, 2010 9:10:54 PM

bilbat said:

Now, in the BIOS, on the "Integrated Peripherals" page, you want to set:

"ICH SATA Control Mode" to "IDE"
"SATA Port0-3 Native Mode" to "Enabled"


Not if you want OSX to run properly. http://www.ihackintosh.com/2009/09/install-mac-os-x-on-...

You know ~ I can read pretty good, notice all the details, and have "done" this before...

Now, IF the OP's intentions is to have their rig actually "run" then
1. Use the ports as I've stated, fine keep the SATA3 HDD on SATA_0, set otherwise to AHCI {Disable non-used ports in BIOS...okay.
2. Partition your drives as you'd like {2/3 primary ; 1/6 XP '; 1/6 OSX}
3. Install WIN 7 as the primary OS {Depending on your Multi-Boot method ; because WIN 7 lacks boot.ini other OSs may NOT work}
4. Create an XPSP2 or SP3 installation CD -> use nLite - Guide http://www.nliteos.com/guide/part1.html
a. Download XPSP3 ISO - http://www.microsoft.com/DownLoads/details.aspx?familyi...
b. Gather the required Drivers for your MOBO - http://gigabyte.com/products/main.aspx?s=42
c. Create a Up-To-Date XP Installation CD
5. Use your Multi-Boot program of your choice
6. Install remaining OSs.

In my case, I find it easier and cleaner to use a separate HDD/SSD; I install under the same BIOS environment. Further, Temporarily, I remove prior installed OS drive(s). IF I only want to "Play" with an OS I use VMware.
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a c 716 V Motherboard
August 11, 2010 2:19:13 AM

Audio multi-track info. Unfortunately, there were arguments on the file sizes that I claimed, but oddly they're pretty close. If I wasn't told these huge sizes then I probably would have felt they were untrue. So hopefully a truce.

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