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Athlon ii x3 435 dead?

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March 20, 2010 3:18:59 AM

Hello all, i just built myself a rig today. It was my first time building a computer. I am having some difficulties with it right now though. First here is the specs,
-MSI 785GM-E65 mobo
-AMD Athlon ii x3 435 processor
-500gb samsung 7200 rpm 16mb cache hard drive
-2gb super talent 1333mhz ram
-Raidmax 450w psu (came with case and im on a VERY tight budget)
-LG dvd burner
-Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit

Anyways here is my problems. I can boot into windows and do some basic browsing on the internet. Whenever i go to play a game using a large amount of the CPU the system hard locks up. When it locks up i cannot move the mouse or turn off num lock or any of those options on the keyboard. When it locks up it freezes and sometimes it will go to a black screen with white lines running vertical down it or it will be at whatever task im doing and some red lines start to show up.

The processor is not overclocked in anyway. I have unlocked the 4th core on it and had it 3.5ghz and was still able to boot into windows and browse the internet. Nothing else, it is back at stock configuration now and still having problems.

I have tried running prime 95 and as soon as i start it no matter what test it locks up. Sometimes it will run for a minute or two then lock up. The max temp i have seen while running prime is 49 Celsius. The max on this chip is 73 Celsius i seen on the AMD site.

I have ran memtest 86 and my ram has passed that. Everything in the BIOS is stock configuration. Just as soon as i go to use a large CPU percentage it locks up. Should i try manually adjusting the vCore? CPU-Z shows it at a core voltage of 1.424, doesn't that seem high for a stock chip not OC'd?

I have run out of ideas. Should i just take the thing back? I bought it at a local shop for $85. Is it actually a bad chip or something i need to change?

More about : athlon 435 dead

a b à CPUs
March 20, 2010 3:31:15 AM

I'll bet you it's the PSU. Cheap PSUs will not get you far, and that will explain the vcore being too high!

I had a raidmax PSU and it put +16v on the +12v rail. Poor board.. :( 

Regardless, I got a antec Earthwatts replacement, and everything is fine (12.6v).

Before you buy the PSU, make sure to get some input from some other users on the forum.
Spoiler
Also make sure you can return it if it turns out not to be the solution.


FFR, after you get it fixed, try to unlock the fourth core by enabling ACC (advanced clock calibration) in the BIOS. :) 

Cheers.
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March 20, 2010 3:44:03 AM

Hmm... I kinda thought it was that but then didn't think that could be it. How could we know forsure if it is the PSU or not? I might be able to take one out of a stock dell system and try that. Why would it be failing if it were the power supply?
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a b à CPUs
March 20, 2010 3:48:12 AM

Please don't take a PSU out of a dell, your board will pretty much explode. Even though it fits in ATX cases, and the connector fits in ATX boards, IT IS NOT AN ATX PSU!!!

Well, for now, download hwmonitor:

http://www.cpuid.com/hwmonitor.php

and please provide a screenshot so we can see what's happening. :) 

Cheers.

Raidmax PSUs operate at (at most) 70% efficiency. So, 450*.7=315 watts, at best. I'd say the average is 65%, so 450*.65=~293w.

Go to http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp and punch in your system. Select your processor, and increase the processor load incrementally and see if it is above 293W. If so, then that's definitely the problem. If not, I'm 65% sure it is anyway. :p 
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March 20, 2010 4:38:58 AM



All i have pluged in on that picture is the psu going to the mobo and to the hard drive. Nothing else im trying to use as less power as possible to get this thing to run prime 95.

EDIT: I tried the dell power supply it was a 350w and did worse than my raidmax. It would freeze up booting the OS. It did not blow my mobo either! Also i am making some progress on getting the system to work for now. If i am using about 50 percent CPU usage doing whatever then go run prime it runs a lot longer. Still not stable at all though.

I think ill order a PSU off of new egg. How is this for a psu? After rebates and promo codes its only about $43 bucks :) 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
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a b à CPUs
March 20, 2010 6:23:35 AM

Hmm, just the fact that your +12V lead is reading 4.93V, that's (more than) a bit odd. Something's definitely wrong here...

+3.5V is definitely not enough for +5V, and VIN6, reads 1.67V, suggesting to me that that is your VDIMM. That's over the limit 1.65V, which overvolting (unlike changing Vcore) can actually damage your mobo easily.

The Dell PSU didn't blow up your mobo, eh? Well, I don't know what to say. First, you're brave. Second, I do know for a fact that some dells use proprietary form factor PSUs.

The PSU you chose is fantastic, and especially for the price. But before you buy (but still before the promo code expires), it would be good to get input from another member of THW, just to be safe. 4.93V on a 12V lead sounds bizarre.

If you have a multimeter, you can go ahead and stick your leads into a molex connector while the system is running. (yellow +12V, red +5V, black both ground).

Good Luck.. :) 
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a b à CPUs
March 20, 2010 6:23:46 AM

Hmm, just the fact that your +12V lead is reading 4.93V, that's (more than) a bit odd. Something's definitely wrong here...

+3.5V is definitely not enough for +5V, and VIN6, reads 1.67V, suggesting to me that that is your VDIMM. That's over the limit 1.65V, which overvolting (unlike changing Vcore) can actually damage your mobo easily.

The Dell PSU didn't blow up your mobo, eh? Well, I don't know what to say. First, you're brave. Second, I do know for a fact that some dells use proprietary form factor PSUs.

The PSU you chose is fantastic, and especially for the price. But before you buy (but still before the promo code expires), it would be good to get input from another member of THW, just to be safe. 4.93V on a 12V lead sounds bizarre.

If you have a multimeter, you can go ahead and stick your leads into a molex connector while the system is running. (yellow +12V, red +5V, black both ground).

Good Luck.. :) 
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a c 105 à CPUs
March 20, 2010 1:41:05 PM

Zinosys said:

The Dell PSU didn't blow up your mobo, eh? Well, I don't know what to say. First, you're brave. Second, I do know for a fact that some dells use proprietary form factor PSUs.



I believe Dell stopped using proprietary PSU several years back. They still use proprietary motherboards (BTX) on some models. For generic PSU, the DELL units are decent.
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March 20, 2010 2:08:30 PM

Yeah, i can try using a multimeter and test the voltages. But after researching a bit it definitely seems like a PSU issue. The power supply came with the case for $60 total. Again i was on a very tight budget (only 15 years old). I might have to run with this power supply for a bit until i can manage to get some more money for a power supply.

But my VIN6 is only reading .66V now? The 12V rail is still under 5V. Definitely a power supply issue i would say :) 

Oh and when i calculate my total wattage i get to about 313W with everything at peak.
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March 20, 2010 4:30:38 PM

First and foremost, it's actually not uncommon for HWMonitor to report errant readings. I have run into this on several builds, including 2 of my own. One has a perfectly good Cooler Master RS-550 powering a PHII X2 550BE (@ 3.7GHz) and an HD4850 (@ 650/1000) that HWMonitor always reports the 12V as ~7V. The other has an Antec EA-430 powering a 7850 Kuma and an 8800GT, which HWMonitor usually reports the 12V rail as ~9V. Neither system has never crashed while gaming, and the BIOS HW Monitors and manual multimeter readings have shown voltages between 11.95V and 12.1V for these machines, which is right on spec.

That particular CPU runs at 1.425V by design. It's VID voltage is 1.425V. Tom's actually confirmed this when they used this CPU in their $750 SBM machine. Here's the link to the Overclocking page of that article:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/value-gaming-pc,257...

As to what's causing your particular problem, I'd go ahead and take some manual readings with a multimeter. You can pick a decent one up at Radio Shack for around $20. While it's possible it's defective, and all signs point in that direction, HWMonitor is not by any means definitive. It's software and it works with the motherboard's on-board sensors. It might not have been programmed properly, or at all, to work with the specific sensor chip within your motherboard.


And Josh, I see you now have 2 different threads going basically ending up in the same problem... I'd advise pointing everyone to one or the other so as to combine the input.

Seeing as Speedfan is reporting the same voltages as HWMonitor, and they're both getting that data from the same source, I still recommend manual voltage testing. But first, just to verify, go into your BIOS and view the voltages there. If anything seems out of spec within the BIOS's HW Monitor, then for certain you have a power issue.

Also, add the fact that you mis-applied your TIM during installation, but still went ahead and OC'd it afterward, and found that during the same day it was first installed the AS-5 had caked, then it's entirely possible that yes, you have in fact damaged your CPU.
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March 20, 2010 6:17:17 PM

Went and bought a new corsair 650w power supply same thing... I guess it must be the CPU.
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a c 105 à CPUs
March 20, 2010 6:30:43 PM

Josh154 said:
Went and bought a new corsair 650w power supply same thing... I guess it must be the CPU.


when you say its back to stock and still locks up, do you mean stock speed or back to 3 cores and stock speed?

also, have you tried taking out one ram stick at a time and running programs? I doubt its a bad ram stick all of the sudden but you may as well check it.
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March 20, 2010 6:50:22 PM

Yes i am back at 3 cores at stock speed. I only have 1 stick of ram but i have tried different slots on the motherboard etc.

With the new power supply i can run prime95 a little bit longer then it locks up. Before it would lock up instantly. Now i can run prime for a good 5 mins before it locks up.

Also RazberyBandit, when i unlocked the fourth and overclocked it, the temps never went about 47 celsius in the BIOS. I did not have windows then so it did not even go into windows. I never ran it overclocked or with the 4th core enabled in windows.
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March 20, 2010 6:56:07 PM

Hmm... Makes me wonder if that old "Ultimate Boot Disk" with all those DOS utilities has a CPU testing program within it... This would allow you to test everything without first loading the OS.

Yup, it does! Mersenne Prime test within it... Same numbers Prime95 uses.

http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/

Free software, so download it, burn it to CD, and see what you can find out.
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a c 105 à CPUs
March 20, 2010 6:58:13 PM

you can play around with msconfig and shut down a core(s) to find the bad one

none the less it loots like it may be a rotten apple of a CPU, which is kind of rare

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March 20, 2010 7:06:36 PM

How do i shut down a core? Msconfig is pressing the f11 key on startup correct?
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a c 105 à CPUs
March 20, 2010 7:11:06 PM

type msconfig in the "search programs and files" box
go into the boot tab
click on advance options
check the number of processors box
it will have a pull down menu of cores numbered 1, 2, 3
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March 20, 2010 7:34:55 PM

Alright had it running on 1 core instead of 3 and it ran prime 95 the longest it ever has but then locked up.
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March 20, 2010 8:15:43 PM

Hmm... I always thought that setting had nothing to do with how many cores Windows uses when running, only how many it uses as it boots...

How many cores does Task Manager show in the Performance tab? Also, within Prime95, you can select which core you want to test individually, in pairs, trios, etc.

You could eliminate a few potential problems by updating the BIOS, as well as attempting a complete reinstallation of Windows, just to make sure some driver didn't screw things up.
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March 20, 2010 8:29:28 PM

Task manager shows 1 core. Also i have updated the BIOS and tried fresh install. I think i will just take the processor back on monday and see if they can give me a exchange there. If they do and it doesn't fix my problem then i don't even know.
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March 20, 2010 8:32:31 PM

As anybody considered bad airflow or a broken mobo?
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March 20, 2010 8:34:04 PM

Could be a bad motherboard, too. If these are store-purchased and they have a real tech department, they should be willing to test them to find out which part's actually bad and needs to be replaced.
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March 20, 2010 8:36:34 PM

Yeah at this point I'm thinking it's a broken part on the mobo.
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a b à CPUs
March 20, 2010 8:48:06 PM

ct1615 said:
I believe Dell stopped using proprietary PSU several years back. They still use proprietary motherboards (BTX) on some models. For generic PSU, the DELL units are decent.


BTX isn't proprietary, it's just another form factor introduced by Intel.

Quote:
First and foremost, it's actually not uncommon for HWMonitor to report errant readings.


^^True.

Quote:
I doubt its a bad ram stick all of the sudden but you may as well check it.


I do not see any way RAM can have an effect like this on the system.

Quote:
With the new power supply i can run prime95 a little bit longer then it locks up. Before it would lock up instantly. Now i can run prime for a good 5 mins before it locks up.

Also RazberyBandit, when i unlocked the fourth and overclocked it, the temps never went about 47 celsius in the BIOS. I did not have windows then so it did not even go into windows. I never ran it overclocked or with the 4th core enabled in windows.


Interesting that you can run Prime a little longer. 47C is good. You shouldn't have to worry.

Quote:
As anybody considered bad airflow or a broken mobo?


Seeing that his temps go up to 47C only, I don't think its an airflow problem. It could be a mobo problem. A choke or cap could be bad.

Take it into the store, as mentioned before, have them identify the problem, etc. Sounds like something electronic. I would have recommended flashing the BIOS, but since that didn't have any profound effect, it's probably a low-level hardware problem.

Best of luck.
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March 20, 2010 9:42:14 PM

I would use Everest instead of HWMonitor, it is much more accurate in reading sensory temps and voltages.

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a b à CPUs
March 20, 2010 9:43:19 PM

Everest is way better, but don't you have to pay for it? Or is there a shareware/demo version? O.o
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a c 105 à CPUs
March 20, 2010 9:43:41 PM

actually my remark was stating the boards are BTX form factor not that BTX is a dell proprietary motherboard
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a b à CPUs
March 20, 2010 9:45:14 PM

ct1615 said:
actually my remark was stating the boards are BTX form factor not that BTX is a dell proprietary motherboard


Cool, maybe I misunderstood you.

Nice Siggy, BTW. I totally agree. :p 
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a c 105 à CPUs
March 20, 2010 9:59:11 PM

its all good :D 
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March 20, 2010 10:22:48 PM

Alright just got back with a new mobo! Will run prime quick and see if that was my problem!
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a b à CPUs
March 20, 2010 10:25:33 PM

Cool, hope it works out! :) 
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March 20, 2010 10:29:08 PM

Just take your time installing it and make sure everything's right before flipping the power switch. =)
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a b à CPUs
March 20, 2010 10:35:41 PM

^^+1. Make sure everything's seated well, and make sure to apply a very fine layer of thermal paste between the CPU and HSF, blah blah blah.

I'm sure you already know this, but it's always best to take precautions.
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March 20, 2010 10:39:21 PM

Yeah i posted that message on the comp. I already had everything installed good.

Unfortunately the mobo is not the problem. :(  I tried running prime without flashing the BIOS then after and same thing...
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a b à CPUs
March 20, 2010 10:44:14 PM

Hmmm... Alright. We isolated the mobo, memory, PSU... How about the CPU?

Did you install standoffs/spacers under the mobo? Try using another HDD (lying around) and do a fresh install. Perhaps there is a bad sector, and that is causing a chain reaction...

I guess the other alternative would be the GPU, but I don't see how that would affect the system. Try putting another GPU in (lying around, know that it works) and see what happens.

It could also be the city power, but I doubt it. Let's leave no stone unturned though.

Cheers, and good luck... This seems like a true (as my IT professor puts it) "stumper".
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March 20, 2010 11:06:24 PM

I had hopes that the store would have been willing to test all this for you on an open-air bench... You could certainly try it yourself, though. It would eliminate the possibility of anything shorting out against the case.
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March 20, 2010 11:31:32 PM

I don't know how many computer I've built to date, and I've never got a bad CPU.

First thing to test is the memory. Remove 1 stick and try Prime. Then try the other one. If everything is fine with 1 stick, then consider upping up the vdimm a bit.
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March 21, 2010 3:10:41 AM

Yeah i don't currently have it in the case and it is still acting up.

pat, i only have 1 stick of RAM should i try doing a return on the RAM?

Also, i am using integrated graphics and it has done the same on both boards. My only other options would be the cpu and the RAM correct?
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a b à CPUs
March 21, 2010 4:08:18 AM

Alright, try the RAM. (really sorry for the work to get this poor PC fixed...)

Hmm, integrated graphics. No biggie then. Don't worry about it. If it's integrated into the mobo, then we already checked that.

Did you install standoffs under the motherboard? That might explain a few things...

Good luck, and sorry (on behalf of the responsible part) for having you go through this.. :( 
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March 22, 2010 2:24:02 AM

Alright i will definitely try the RAM tomorrow. I think it might be the RAM as when i run prime 95 and do the one with lots of ram it locks up right away and when i run the one using less RAM it doesnt lock up. Where and how can i get memtest?

EDIT: I downloaded memtest and running it currently. It says my RAM settings are
-483MHz (DDR966)
-CAS: 2.5-1-0-1
DDR-1 (128bits)

Umm i believe that is all wrong. It should be DDR3 ram 1333MHz at CAS latency's of 9.
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a b à CPUs
March 22, 2010 4:33:07 AM

Hmmm, I can't help you with memtest, but I do know that it can only recognize one stick at a time.

So take out all of your sticks and put only one inside, run memtest, and repeat.

You should encounter an error on one stick.

...Or you could probably get away with return/exchanging your ram kit. :p 
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March 22, 2010 10:17:11 AM

Could the memory controller on the CPU be broken?
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March 22, 2010 10:24:16 AM

Possibly, Userremoved. I guess the only way to figure that out is to successfully run Memtest on more than 1 memory module, preferably memory that passes a full battery of Memtest tests within a functional machine.
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a b à CPUs
March 22, 2010 3:31:58 PM

Well, I don't think it's possible to use more than one module with memtest. (it just won't see it)

DIMM slots can also go bad easily. i've seen it happen before.

Does Everest have some kind of memory-checking utility too? :|
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March 22, 2010 3:42:56 PM

I only have 1 stick of RAM. When i run memtest the RAM passes it. Also i don't think its the DIMM slot as i just replaced the motherboard and have tried different slots on both boards. I am going into town soon and am going to swap the CPU and RAM so either way it should be fixed :)  Hopefully anyways. Ive tried a new power supply, swapped motherboards made sure its not grounding out, different DIMM slots, ran memtest passed it fine. I dunno :/ 
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March 22, 2010 6:07:22 PM

Having eliminated all the other parts, only thing left is the CPU itself. Might I suggest you don't OC the next one at all until after you've got the whole machine running? :) 
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a b à CPUs
March 22, 2010 6:24:06 PM

True. Different slots on both boards. Then, it's (hopefully), definitely the CPU.

I agree with RazberyBandit. Don't OC unless you are 110% certain that the machine is fully operational and stable.

Cheers.
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March 22, 2010 6:24:12 PM

Too bad you spent so much on that PC (i think) still you will have spare parts later.
Again good luck!
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March 22, 2010 7:11:58 PM

WOOO! I just got back with the new processor and have been running prime for 10 minutes so far! Old CPU would have locked up by now! So glad i got this thing working! I will run prime over night before overclocking :) 

Thanks for all the help guys! My dream has come true to build my own rig at 15! :) 
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