$1000 i5 build

[jonsy2k]

APPROXIMATE PURCHASE DATE: Within the next 2 weeks.

BUDGET RANGE: around 1000 not more than 1100 after tax/shipping/MIR/etc

SYSTEM USAGE FROM MOST TO LEAST IMPORTANT: Mainly gaming, maybe some autocad/solidworks/ProE.

PARTS NOT REQUIRED: Monitor, OS

PREFERRED WEBSITE(S) FOR PARTS: Newegg, tigerdirect, amazon. Would prefer the latter two since there is no tax, but if its comparable, newegg is fine.

COUNTRY OF ORIGIN: Los Angeles, CA, USA

PARTS PREFERENCES: None.

OVERCLOCKING: Most likely yes

MONITOR RESOLUTION: 1440x900

ADDITIONAL COMMENTS: Case probably should have window, quiet isn't really an issue, something that looks nice


Ok, so I'm helping my friend with a build, and it is his first one. His budget is about 1000 not exceeding 1100. At this range i was thinking I could possible pair a i5 750 with a 5850, but I'm not sure if that is just wishful thinking. The board doesn't need to be too fancy, maybe decent for some mild overclocking, I hear the i5s can do 3.6 with no voltage increase, so maybe just a bit over that if its easy.

There is a slickdeal for a HIS 5850 for 280- 10% = $252, but I'm not sure how long that will last. He doesn't need a OS since we have MSDNAA provided by microsoft to our school for a free copy of windows 7 64 bit.

It worries me a bit since RAM prices have gone up in the last few months, so I'm not sure what this will come out to be.

 

[belial2k]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.311727
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102809
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827151192
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103065&cm_re=hyper_212-_-35-103-065-_-Product


comes to about $825...if you can really get the 5850 for $250 you could substitute it for the card I chose, but the card I chose will have the same or better performance. You also might want to get a 500gb F3 for a boot drive and leave the slower1.5tb for storage.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152181&cm_re=F3-_-22-152-181-_-Product

 

[jonsy2k]

Here's the list that I was thinking:

MOBO + CPU

i5 750 + asus p7p55d pro

I would prefer a full atx form factor to microatx, and this mobo seems to have some nice features and reviews.

Graphics

XFX 5850

This is no longer on sale, I would prefer a dx11 graphics, just for some future proofing. I know that grabbing 2 4850 or 4870 would be really greater bang for the buck, but I think this will be a bit nicer when all the dx11 games come out, and I'm not sure how much he will be upgrading.

Case

storm scout

I really like this case, but any will do, I was checking out the CM 690 II also.

RAM

crucial ballistix

This ram looks alright to me, decent speed with nice timings, but this is one area where some deals might be nice

Hard Drive

spinpoint f3 500gb

Reviews of this drive have been pretty good, I'm not sure if the 1 tb variation is also using the 500 gb platters, but I would assume so. I might pick up that one instead, if hes willing to spend a bit more for some extra storage, or go with belial's idea of grabbing just a cheaper drive for all other stuff.

optical drive

belial's suggested drive

this is a pretty nice price for the drive, nothing fancy is really needed here.

power supply

corsair 550vx

Looks like a decent power supply for a single graphics.

I won't include anything about keyboard or mouse, because those can probably either be luxury items, or just any plain keyboard mouse combo.


the grand total comes to be $1,110.79, but this is including the newegg tax in california + shipping. Some can be shaved off by ordering some of the parts from amazon, such as the case. This looks to fit exactly in the budget, so my main concern is maybe finding some combo/free shipping deals to take this down a bit.

If there are any other ideas, I would also love to hear them.

Thanks a lot guys.

 

[MadAdmiral]

There's a combo with the HAF 922 and OCZ StealthXStream 700W for $130 after rebate. That would save you a little money.

The 5850 is overkill for that resolution. If he's not going to upgrade to a 1900x monitor, save $150 and get the HD 5770.

 

[belial2k]

Be careful buying this generation of cards with DX11 in mind. Early reports are it adds very little to the gaming experience visually, but gives a HUGE hit to frame rates (like 30% to 50%). All DX11 games will be backwards compatible all the way to DX9 cards, so will still be playable (and with much better frame rates) on almost any card you choose.

 

[belial2k]

Also keep in mind Mico ATX boards can still be placed in mid and full towers. Most still have the same features, but lose a PCI slot or two compared to the full size boards.

 

[MadAdmiral]

That's not correct.

The new 5xxx series (DX 11 cards) are all more powerful than the DX 10 counterparts. They don't take a frame rate hit, rather they have a frame rate boost. Just check out the bookmarks. The current order in terms of power (ATI only, ignoring Crossfire) is the 5970, 5870, 5850, 4890, and the 4870 and 5770 equal (depending on the version). The HD 4870 at $170 is a little more expensive than the 5770 at $160. So you'd get the same power for less.

In addition, only RECENT DX 11 games haven't shown anything special, but you shoulnd't except them to, as the tech is brand new. Take a look in the 5670 review, and tell me that those two pictures are the same. Regardless, DX 11 is inevitable, so any older card will be obsolete in about a year.

As for DX 11 games being backwards compatible, that's completely wrong. DX 11 CARDS are backwards compatible (i.e. the 5770 can play older games), but anything that uses DX 11 (unless released in multiple versions) will not work with older cards.

 

[belial2k]

That's not accurate.

The new 5xxx series (DX 11 cards) are all more powerful than the DX 10 counterparts. In addition, only RECENT DX 11 games haven't shown anything special. Regardless, DX 11 is inevitable, so any older card will be obsolete in about a year.

As for DX 11 games being backwards compatible, that's completely wrong. DX 11 CARDS are backwards compatible (i.e. the 5770 can play older games), but anything that uses DX 11 (unless released in 2 versions) will not work with older cards.

What? Where are you getting this information? Nothing in this post is correct. Just because a card is DX11 doesn't make it more powerful. A 4890 is more powerful than a 5770, a 4850x2 is more powerful than any 5xxx cards except the 5870 and the 5970.
Dirt 2, a DX11 game, can be played on any 4xxx series card, just like any other DX11 game. It will play with the latest available DX version the card supports...so in the 4xxx series that would be Dx10. Your statements are WAY off here.

 

[MadAdmiral]

Look at my links. They show exactly what I'm saying about the cards being more powerful for the same cost (or less). It's not a fair comparision to use a $200 card to compare to the performance of $150 card. The only "fair" comparison is the 5770 and 4870. You get about the same performance for $10-20 less in the 5770 PLUS DX 11.

Fair enough on the DX 10 though. You just lose the benefits from playing in the best graphics possible.

You're still absolutely wrong on the benchmarks.

 

[belial2k]

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5670,2533-15.html
Notice the huge hit the cards that support DX11 take when it is enabled over running the game in DX10. It should be stated this game makes only limited use of DX11, so it would be safe to say games that employ it more would give an even larger hit.
Also notice all the OLD cards that are able to play the game, even the old 9xxx series Nvidia cards.

 

[MadAdmiral]

Those aren't the gaming DX 11 cards. The 5770 is much, much better than the 5750 in games. Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about frame rate benefits. I was talking about the actual visual benefits (the prettier picture). Frame rates aren't everything. After all, you only need 30 FPS to be playable, and anything over 60 FPS generally can't be seen on a regular 60 Hz monitor.

Of course the cards are going to slow a little for DX 11. It's more intense. You then can't compare those results to the other cards running exclusively in DX 10. The fair comparision is the DX 10 performance to DX 10 performance on two different cards, not DX 11 to DX 10 on different cards. By the same token, a fair comparision is DX 11 performance to DX 10 performance for the same card. Adding DX 11 to mix is similiar to increasing the resolution. If you increase the amount of detail required, the frame rates suffer, unless you are still exceeding the maximum for another constraint.

To compare DX 11 on one card to DX 10 on a different card is the same as comparing one card's FPS on 1920x1200 resolutions to another's at 1680x1050. It just doesn't give a clear picture. To measure the effect of a change, everything else must be held constant. In this case, its what card you're using and what interface it's running.

The reason the DX 10 cards were included was to give an idea of where they would be if they offered DX 11.

There is also no indication of the difference in the quality of graphics of the game in DX 10 vs. DX 11. With limited use, there wouldn't be much, but once games start using it heavily, the differences are large, which is why I linked to that Alien vs. Predator picture.

 

[belial2k]

The 5770 vs. the 4870 at retail is the only price point where a 5xxx is cheaper and performs on the same level. 4850 for $99 performs equal to a 5750 for $130. 4850x2 for $209 performs equal to 5850 for $300+, 2x 4890 for about $400 outperforms by a wide margin the 5870 for about the same price, and comes very close in performance to the 5970. If you check non retail outlets such as ebay, there is a ton of 4870s selling for less $125, and 4870x2s selling in the $250 range.
Do you really think ANY game developer will shoot themselves in the foot and not enable their games to ship with DX10 and DX9 support? Saying anything but a DX11 card will obsolete in a year means that 99% of the market that does not have a DX11 card and windows 7 will not be able to buy their games....do you really think they are that dumb? Developers always do things with the mainstream in mind. I can say with confidence that ANY DX11 game that ships in the next few years is going to have support for DX10 and probably 9 also...by the time DX10 cards are really obsolete, that 5xxx series card is going to look pretty old and need an upgrade anyway.

 

[MadAdmiral]

You can't bring Crossfired solutions into it. Why? Because it removes the upgrade path. Many people would gladly pay the little extra for the ability to continue to improve later. If you Crossfire right away, you lose that benefit/potential.

And once again, while you would get the same FPS, you wouldn't get the same experience from the DX 11 games. While developers won't write out the DX 10 (and we shouldn't kid ourselves about DX 9, GPUs from that era are struggling to play recent games), the PLAYER won't get the full experience playing a DX 11 game in DX 10. It's like trying to watch HDTV in standard definition. You may get the same content, but the quality is lower.

Obsolete does not mean 99% don't use it. It just means it's not desireable. By the definition, DX 10 cards are already obsolete. When you compare them to DX 11 cards , the older cards aren't desireable.

 

[belial2k]

Those aren't the gaming DX 11 cards. The 5770 is much, much better than the 5750 in games. Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about frame rate benefits. I was talking about the actual visual benefits (the prettier picture). Frame rates aren't everything. After all, you only need 30 FPS to be playable, and anything over 60 FPS generally can't be seen on a regular 60 Hz monitor.

Of course the cards are going to slow a little for DX 11. It's more intense. You then can't compare those results to the other cards running exclusively in DX 10. The fair comparision is the DX 10 performance to DX 10 performance on two different cards, not DX 11 to DX 10 on different cards. By the same token, a fair comparision is DX 11 performance to DX 10 performance for the same card. Adding DX 11 to mix is similiar to increasing the resolution. If you increase the amount of detail required, the frame rates suffer, unless you are still exceeding the maximum for another constraint.

To compare DX 11 on one card to DX 10 on a different card is the same as comparing one card's FPS on 1920x1200 resolutions to another's at 1680x1050. It just doesn't give a clear picture. To measure the effect of a change, everything else must be held constant. In this case, its what card you're using and what interface it's running.

The reason the DX 10 cards were included was to give an idea of where they would be if they offered DX 11.

There is also no indication of the difference in the quality of graphics of the game in DX 10 vs. DX 11. With limited use, there wouldn't be much, but once games start using it heavily, the differences are large, which is why I linked to that Alien vs. Predator picture.

Those charts also show how the 5xxx cards lose against cheaper cards in apples to apples, dx10 vs dx10 comparisons. The 5770 is only about 15% faster than 5750 (meaning it would also be unplayable at most settings with DX11 enabled)....and the old 4870 still beats them in the majority of benches.
=on&prod[3103]=on&prod[3122]=on]http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-cards-charts-2009-high-quality/compare,1635.html?prod[3107]=on&prod[3103]=on&prod[3122]=on

 

[MadAdmiral]

The 4870 isn't cheaper. It's more expensive. It's less than 1% more performance (0.95% to be exact). The price difference is almost 10%. So you'd want to pay 10% more to get 1% of performance.

15% may be small, but that's an almost 1 to 1 performance/price increase. Since the 5770 can be found for less than $20 more thant he 5750, it's probably one of the best price/performance upgrade ratios you can get in tech (imagine if you got the same returns on an upgrade from a X4 Propus to an i7-920). I'd much rather upgrade from a 5750 to a 5770 than from the 5750 to a 4870.

And again, YOU CAN'T COMPARE DX 11 PERFORMANCE ON ONE CARD TO DX 10 ON ANOTHER. You might as well say that an HD 3850 performs as well as the 5970 because the 3850's frame rates are as good on 1280x as the 5970's on 1900x (don't actually know if this is true).

Tell me, what are the benchmarks of the 4870 on DX 11. Oh right. They don't exist. Using a true apples to apples comparision, the 5770 gets an infinite percentage of FPS more than the 4870 (x/0 = infinity and all)...

 

[belial2k]

You can't bring Crossfired solutions into it. Why? Because it removes the upgrade path. Many people would gladly pay the little extra for the ability to continue to improve later. If you Crossfire right away, you lose that benefit/potential.

And once again, while you would get the same FPS, you wouldn't get the same experience from the DX 11 games. While developers won't write out the DX 10 (and we shouldn't kid ourselves about DX 9, GPUs from that era are struggling to play recent games), the PLAYER won't get the full experience playing a DX 11 game in DX 10. It's like trying to watch HDTV in standard definition. You may get the same content, but the quality is lower.

Obsolete does not mean 99% don't use it. It just means it's not desireable. By the definition, DX 10 cards are already obsolete. When you compare them to DX 11 cards , the older cards aren't desireable.

So what we are left with is an honest difference of opinion. You admit now that DX11 titles WILL run on older cards, which was my main point of contention. We have two completely different points of view on this. I would much rather have a cheaper, more powerful graphics solution that can run at higher resolutions with maximum game settings. You would rather pay more for the same fps in DX10 titles, and have something that will allow you play DX11 games in their full glory. The reason I don't think the DX11 is worth it right now is because I don't really think you will be able to get that "full glory". In order to get playable frame rates you'll have to lower resolutions and settings so far they will offset any gains the DX11 makes visually. This is just an opinion based on what I've seen and heard so far, but since we don't yet have many DX11 titles there is no "proof" either way. And that brings me to my final point. There just aren't many DX11 games out there...and over the next year, year and a half there might be a couple of titles released that someone might really want. So is the price premium worth it for 1)speculating there MIGHT be a game come out that I really want to get that has DX11 2)speculating that game will play smoothly when DX11 is enabled 3)speculating that DX11 will really make a noticeable and worthwhile visual difference 4)speculating there won't be a better and cheaper solution by the time DX11 titles become mainstreamed.....for me that is large price premium to pay on something that may not really give me any real benefits.

 

[belial2k]

I never compared the DX11 vs DX10 on different cards. I was showing the performance hit DX11 cards take when DX11 is enabled. So your argument is a pretty DX11 slide show is better than DX10 smooth game play....once again a difference of opinion.

 

[MadAdmiral]

As my final points of argument: DX 11 is inevitable. Do you see new DX 1.0 games being released anymore? No. By the mere fact that DX 11 is out, DX 10 is already circling the drain. So there is no speculation on games coming out that use DX 11.

The second one is a fair point, but that's the unknown factor with any future games. The current hardware may not be able to play it smoothly. I mean it has taken over 2 years for computers to actually play Crysis at the fullest extent.

All indications (which I admit there are few) show that DX 11 will drastically improve the visuals. I hate to keep pointing to the same thing, but that picture I linked to showing Alien in DX 10 vs. DX 11, the difference is huge.

On the point about waiting, if you wait long enough, of course tech is going to be cheaper and better. Everyone knows that. If you keep wait for the solution to be cheaper/more advanced, you will never upgrade. Right now, the premium for DX 11 cards isn't that high, especialy considering all of them (maybe excluding the 5670) are in the top 10 most powerful single cards. They also have other benefits: lower power needs, cooler operation, quieter operation and vastly superior Crossfire capabilities. All of these were tangible the moment the cards hit the market. In fact, these benefits are the reason the 5670/5750 are excellent HTPC cards despite being underpowered compared to simliarly priced older cards.

As far as buying "cheaper" DX 10 solutions, when you have to figure in the cost of rebuying GPUs that support DX 11 with the same frame rates, you really have doubled your outflow of cash. You need to figure in the obsolecence costs into the investment. In addition, the same frame rates (in the high end) are only obtained through a dual card solution, making the single card more desireable simply because of the upgrade potential. It'd be a really, really bad idea to build a new computer and when it slows down have no options to upgrade other than build again.

 

[eugenenam85]

damn, u guys kidnapped this post from a question about a system build to a debated about graphic cards.....also, i'm going to build a system that is similar to yours but are you going to use the stock cooler? You said that you were going to overclock so just wondering

 

[MadAdmiral]

My apologies for that. It's just easier than creating a new topic to continue...

If you are going to overclock, don't forget to add an aftermarket cooler. I haven't seen one mentioned yet, so I recommend the Coolermaser Hyper 212. It's one of the best, and cheap at $30.

If you're not overclocking, you don't really need one.

 

[belial2k]

Sorry we got off on a tangent, but it seemed the OP had already made up his mind about the build after being presented with a couple of options.

 

[jonsy2k]

Well, I had a pretty good idea in mind when i set out with this thread and the discussion about the graphics was actually pretty helpful, I just haven't had a chance to check back on the thread.

I definitely see the point of maybe grabbing the 4xxx generation and getting more performance, but IMO it is very possible that the drivers and games just aren't optimized for dx11 yet, since it is still in its infancy. This will be something that i discuss with my friend and he can make an educated decision.

I was thinking about grabbing a aftermarket HS also, since he did state some willingness to overclock. I was thinking along the lines of CCF, hyper212, dark knight, and cogage true spirit. this looks to be a bit overbudget, but we'll try to find some deals and fit a heat sink in there.


Also I would also appreciate feedback on maybe the other components too other than the graphics card. Anything about the ram, mobo, psu?

Any more feedback would be great.

 

[MadAdmiral]

Other than my comment about the HAF 922 and OCZ StealthXStream 700W combo that'd save you a good $50 or so, everything looks good.

 

[jonsy2k]

nice, thanks, I had forgotten about that after the long block of text, I was also going to mention that I would also most likely grab a new monitor also. Something along the lines of 1920x1080/1200

 

[MadAdmiral]

Then you should also stick with the HD 5850.