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Lithium-Ion Battery - cannot re-charge

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Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 7, 2004 7:25:23 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Hello Folks, my lap-top uses a lithium-ion battery, which the user
manual with my lap-top says develop a memory, has indeed appeared to
have developed a memory. The problem arose, I believe, because I always
used the lap-top with the power supply. The problem now is that trying
to use it on battery it is always telling me the battery is low. I try
and discharge the battery by leaving the machine on until it runs the
battery dead but I cannot fully re-charge it. Connecting the power
supply results in a, apparent, full charge after about ten minutes.
Switching to battery the machine starts beeping immediately with the low
battery warning.

Can this battery be saved and if so what do I need to do.

TIA.

Graeme.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 7, 2004 7:25:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

My understanding was that Li-ion batteries don't develop memory problems.
And my
experience with them does support that.

"Graeme Nichols" <gnichols@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:411467c8$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> Hello Folks, my lap-top uses a lithium-ion battery, which the user
> manual with my lap-top says develop a memory, has indeed appeared to
> have developed a memory. The problem arose, I believe, because I always
> used the lap-top with the power supply. The problem now is that trying
> to use it on battery it is always telling me the battery is low. I try
> and discharge the battery by leaving the machine on until it runs the
> battery dead but I cannot fully re-charge it. Connecting the power
> supply results in a, apparent, full charge after about ten minutes.
> Switching to battery the machine starts beeping immediately with the low
> battery warning.
>
> Can this battery be saved and if so what do I need to do.
>
> TIA.
>
> Graeme.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 7, 2004 7:25:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Graeme Nichols <gnichols@tpg.com.au> wrote:
> Hello Folks, my lap-top uses a lithium-ion battery, which the user
> manual with my lap-top says develop a memory, has indeed appeared to
> have developed a memory. The problem arose, I believe, because I always
> used the lap-top with the power supply. The problem now is that trying
> to use it on battery it is always telling me the battery is low. I try
> and discharge the battery by leaving the machine on until it runs the
> battery dead but I cannot fully re-charge it. Connecting the power
> supply results in a, apparent, full charge after about ten minutes.
> Switching to battery the machine starts beeping immediately with the low
> battery warning.
>
> Can this battery be saved and if so what do I need to do.

How old?
If it's around 12 months old, or older, it may well be dead.
Lithium will die fairly rapidly if you just leave it fully charged in
a warm enviroment, even without charging/discharging.
Related resources
August 7, 2004 9:13:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 09:09:25 +0100, "amn" <anaas@xs4all.nl> wrote:

>
>My understanding was that Li-ion batteries don't develop memory problems.
>And my
>experience with them does support that.

Ditto.

What has most likely occurred is one of:

(a) the state of charge (SOC) of the pack has got out of step with the charge
monitoring activities of the laptop. As a result, the laptop declares the
battery charged and/or low prematurely. For many latops with this potential,
there is a "recalibration" process.

(b) on earlier types without actual data comms between pack and host, the pack's
internal protection electronics monitors the pack voltage and charge/discharge
current. In the event of any of these getting out of the safe area, the module
interrupts the supply. Some packs include monitoring of individual cell
voltages and the differences between them. In that case, if the differential
voltage exceeds a certain figure the supply can be interrupted. If these
interruptions take place on discharge, you won't get a blinking light or any
other warning - the machine just dumps. But if it occurs on the CHARGE cycle,
the charging is interrupted and the host may consider the charging completed
even though the pack has accepted minimal charge. That results in a pack that
exhibits low capacity. Cell voltage differences can only be addresses by
intervention within the pack, and that should ONLY be undertaken by ppl who
understand the charging of Li-Ion cells and associated safety issues.

>"Graeme Nichols" <gnichols@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
>news:411467c8$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>> Hello Folks, my lap-top uses a lithium-ion battery, which the user
>> manual with my lap-top says develop a memory, has indeed appeared to
>> have developed a memory. The problem arose, I believe, because I always
>> used the lap-top with the power supply. The problem now is that trying
>> to use it on battery it is always telling me the battery is low. I try
>> and discharge the battery by leaving the machine on until it runs the
>> battery dead but I cannot fully re-charge it. Connecting the power
>> supply results in a, apparent, full charge after about ten minutes.
>> Switching to battery the machine starts beeping immediately with the low
>> battery warning.
>>
>> Can this battery be saved and if so what do I need to do.
>>
>> TIA.
>>
>> Graeme.
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 8, 2004 7:35:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Graeme Nichols wrote:
> Hello Folks, my lap-top uses a lithium-ion battery, which the user
> manual with my lap-top says develop a memory, has indeed appeared to
> have developed a memory. The problem arose, I believe, because I always
> used the lap-top with the power supply. The problem now is that trying
> to use it on battery it is always telling me the battery is low. I try
> and discharge the battery by leaving the machine on until it runs the
> battery dead but I cannot fully re-charge it. Connecting the power
> supply results in a, apparent, full charge after about ten minutes.
> Switching to battery the machine starts beeping immediately with the low
> battery warning.
>
> Can this battery be saved and if so what do I need to do.
>
> TIA.
>
> Graeme.

Thanks to all who responded to my request. The end result is that it may
have gone the way of the do-do, its over two years old and I have, most
probably, contributed to its demise by running the lap-top with mains
power (thinking I was actually saving the battery from too many
charge/discharge cycles as in lead/acid batteries) most of the time.
Dumb, dumb, dumb!!!

Ignorance is a very expensive state.

I don't suppose anyone knows of a company in Australia who may
resurrect/repair these Li-ion batteries is there?

Thanks,

Graeme.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 8, 2004 10:50:32 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

and that is backed up by http://www.BatteryUniversity.com

if the battery is over 2 years old or has more than say 400 cycles on it,
I'd say it's more than likely worn out.


"amn" <anaas@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:41147ffa$0$43451$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
>
> My understanding was that Li-ion batteries don't develop memory problems.
> And my
> experience with them does support that.
>
> "Graeme Nichols" <gnichols@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
> news:411467c8$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> > Hello Folks, my lap-top uses a lithium-ion battery, which the user
> > manual with my lap-top says develop a memory, has indeed appeared to
> > have developed a memory. The problem arose, I believe, because I always
> > used the lap-top with the power supply. The problem now is that trying
> > to use it on battery it is always telling me the battery is low. I try
> > and discharge the battery by leaving the machine on until it runs the
> > battery dead but I cannot fully re-charge it. Connecting the power
> > supply results in a, apparent, full charge after about ten minutes.
> > Switching to battery the machine starts beeping immediately with the low
> > battery warning.
> >
> > Can this battery be saved and if so what do I need to do.
> >
> > TIA.
> >
> > Graeme.
>
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 8, 2004 10:56:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
....
>
> Finally, to reinforce something that's been stated here many, many times
> (although some people still refuse to accept it), if you are running on
> AC for long periods of time, remove the battery. If you want a UPS, get
> a UPS, don't use the battery as your UPS; although it works great in
> that role, a $30 UPS is far more expendable than a $200+ Lithium ion
> battery. A Lithium ion battery can last almost a decade with proper use
> and care (and I have some from 1997 that are still going strong). But
> if you leave it in your computer while the computer is on AC
> continuously, you will, in most cases, effectively destroy the battery
> in 6 to 18 months.


Could you explain why? I had a look at http://www.BatteryUniversity.com and
couldn't find any support for this idea.

Is it possible, if your using your own experience as the only reasoning for
this position, that there was something different about the li-ion batteries
manufactured more than 5 years ago?

thanks.

Chip
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 9, 2004 4:17:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

You are correct about "number of cycles" wearing out a lithium battery.
But, if the battery has not been excessively cycled (a "lot" of cycles
is in the mid-hundreds), and has not been over-charged or over-heated,
then 2 years calendar time should not be a problem. Lithium battery
systems are, chemically, among the most stable battery systems in
existence (both single-use and rechargeable), and they can last the
better part of a decade. I have a number of them from 1997 that are
still going strong, still about as good as when they were new.


Chip Orange wrote:

> and that is backed up by http://www.BatteryUniversity.com
>
> if the battery is over 2 years old or has more than say 400 cycles on it,
> I'd say it's more than likely worn out.
>
>
> "amn" <anaas@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
> news:41147ffa$0$43451$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
>
>>My understanding was that Li-ion batteries don't develop memory problems.
>>And my
>>experience with them does support that.
>>
>>"Graeme Nichols" <gnichols@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
>>news:411467c8$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>>
>>>Hello Folks, my lap-top uses a lithium-ion battery, which the user
>>>manual with my lap-top says develop a memory, has indeed appeared to
>>>have developed a memory. The problem arose, I believe, because I always
>>>used the lap-top with the power supply. The problem now is that trying
>>>to use it on battery it is always telling me the battery is low. I try
>>>and discharge the battery by leaving the machine on until it runs the
>>>battery dead but I cannot fully re-charge it. Connecting the power
>>>supply results in a, apparent, full charge after about ten minutes.
>>>Switching to battery the machine starts beeping immediately with the low
>>>battery warning.
>>>
>>>Can this battery be saved and if so what do I need to do.
>>>
>>>TIA.
>>>
>>>Graeme.
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 9, 2004 4:36:20 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

I don't want to repeat a thousand-post thread that occured in this
newsgroup about 15 months ago, but to summarize, the fact is that
whether they shoud or not, most laptops will apparently either
overcharge and/or overheat a battery that is left in the laptop when
it's run almost constantly on AC, resulting in the essential destruction
of the battery in 6 to 18 months (whereas, properly treated, a Li-Ion
battery can last 5 to 10 years).

There were hundreds of people who posted on this subject over a period
of several months, including quite a few with extensive experience who
design and/or service laptops (I fall into this group myself).

Quite a few people did argue that this was not the case, or perhaps more
accurately that it SHOULD not be the case. But the theoretical aspects
of the argument not withstanding, the actual real-world field experience
posted -- by hundreds of people -- was overwhelming that leaving a
battery in a laptop that's run off of ac power for long periods will
destroy the battery within 6 to 18 months, without regard to why or
whether battery chemical theory would support this.

As to the reason, again, it was felt by those with knowledge of laptops
and batteries that it was a mix of overcharging (the charger being on
24x7x365, typically, if the laptop is always plugged in) and/or
overheating (which can come from overcharging, but which can also come
from the CPU, hard drive, switching power supply and other components of
the laptop).

There is no reason to believe that Li-ion batteries have changed in the
time that they have been in use for laptops (about-10 years).
Certainly, they are different from both NiMH and NiCad batteries, and
some people don't understand those differences (the memory effect being
one of them), but I'm excluding that here.

Now what may have changed (although I do not believe that it has) is the
design of laptops and the charging circuits. However, don't exclude the
possibility that laptops have changed -- not for the better, but for the
worse. That is, they run hotter now than they used to, which is one of
the killers of batteries.

But I will make this point: If you have a laptop that is run
essentially constantly on AC, and you take out the battery, but cycle it
SOMEWHAT every 60 to 90 days (not to full discharge, but say down to
40% or so, then recharge it), then in 2 years you will still have a good
laptop battery (fact). But if you leave it in the laptop constantly, AT
BEST you will have a good laptop battery, but, based on experience, more
than likely you will have a dead battery whose replacement cost is about
$200, on average.

Now which course of action do you want to follow, because, after all, it
is your choice, your laptop, your money and your battery.


Chip Orange wrote:

> "Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Finally, to reinforce something that's been stated here many, many times
>>(although some people still refuse to accept it), if you are running on
>>AC for long periods of time, remove the battery. If you want a UPS, get
>>a UPS, don't use the battery as your UPS; although it works great in
>>that role, a $30 UPS is far more expendable than a $200+ Lithium ion
>>battery. A Lithium ion battery can last almost a decade with proper use
>>and care (and I have some from 1997 that are still going strong). But
>>if you leave it in your computer while the computer is on AC
>>continuously, you will, in most cases, effectively destroy the battery
>>in 6 to 18 months.
>
>
>
> Could you explain why? I had a look at http://www.BatteryUniversity.com and
> couldn't find any support for this idea.
>
> Is it possible, if your using your own experience as the only reasoning for
> this position, that there was something different about the li-ion batteries
> manufactured more than 5 years ago?
>
> thanks.
>
> Chip
>
>
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 9, 2004 11:06:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

thanks; I'm not trying to pretend I know, I'm looking for experts who do
know, and I was quoting from batteryuniversity.com where they give the
expected life of a li-ion battery as 2-3 years.

I have to say that my first li-ion battery, in my A31 thinkpad, only went 18
months before it would charge only to 50 percent of capacity.

Perhaps the difference is they are reporting lifetimes as experienced by
people like me who do nothing special to preserve the battery, while your
experience may come from taking a lot of special care of the battery?

fyi, I went for a third-party replacement instead of a genuine IBM and found
one for $75 and one for $95. Time will tell I guess as to whether this was
being frugal or being cheap!!

Chip


"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4116C2E0.9040501@neo.rr.com...
> You are correct about "number of cycles" wearing out a lithium battery.
> But, if the battery has not been excessively cycled (a "lot" of cycles
> is in the mid-hundreds), and has not been over-charged or over-heated,
> then 2 years calendar time should not be a problem. Lithium battery
> systems are, chemically, among the most stable battery systems in
> existence (both single-use and rechargeable), and they can last the
> better part of a decade. I have a number of them from 1997 that are
> still going strong, still about as good as when they were new.
>
>
> Chip Orange wrote:
>
> > and that is backed up by http://www.BatteryUniversity.com
> >
> > if the battery is over 2 years old or has more than say 400 cycles on
it,
> > I'd say it's more than likely worn out.
> >
> >
> > "amn" <anaas@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
> > news:41147ffa$0$43451$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> >
> >>My understanding was that Li-ion batteries don't develop memory
problems.
> >>And my
> >>experience with them does support that.
> >>
> >>"Graeme Nichols" <gnichols@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
> >>news:411467c8$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> >>
> >>>Hello Folks, my lap-top uses a lithium-ion battery, which the user
> >>>manual with my lap-top says develop a memory, has indeed appeared to
> >>>have developed a memory. The problem arose, I believe, because I always
> >>>used the lap-top with the power supply. The problem now is that trying
> >>>to use it on battery it is always telling me the battery is low. I try
> >>>and discharge the battery by leaving the machine on until it runs the
> >>>battery dead but I cannot fully re-charge it. Connecting the power
> >>>supply results in a, apparent, full charge after about ten minutes.
> >>>Switching to battery the machine starts beeping immediately with the
low
> >>>battery warning.
> >>>
> >>>Can this battery be saved and if so what do I need to do.
> >>>
> >>>TIA.
> >>>
> >>>Graeme.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
August 10, 2004 1:44:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:35:48 +1000, Graeme Nichols <gnichols@tpg.com.au> wrote:

>Thanks to all who responded to my request. The end result is that it may
>have gone the way of the do-do, its over two years old and I have, most
>probably, contributed to its demise by running the lap-top with mains
>power (thinking I was actually saving the battery from too many
>charge/discharge cycles as in lead/acid batteries) most of the time.
>Dumb, dumb, dumb!!!
>
>Ignorance is a very expensive state.

It is more a case of ignorance than "dumb". The worst aspect is that the laptop
manufacturers don't help. They COULD explain about the impact of 24x7 power to
a laptop. Also, as battery endurance (hours per charge, not years per pack) is
a selling feature they tend to use as high an end-of-charge voltage as they can
get away with. Dropping this from 4v20 to 4v10 can increase lifetime (cycles)
by a significant percentage which far exceeds the reduction in cycle energy.
But hey <cycnicism> they sell battery packs don't they </cynicism>

>I don't suppose anyone knows of a company in Australia who may
>resurrect/repair these Li-ion batteries is there?

First off, I'd be more than a little sceptical if anyone offers to "rejuvenate"
Li-Ion packs without having specific knowledge of the model/configuration you
have. And if they plan to do it without opening the pack, the words "snake oil
salesman" should be ringing in your ears.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 10, 2004 4:23:18 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

I think that their report is based on actual use of the battery at what
they consider a "normal" rate. There's no quesiton that a Li-Ion
battery has a limited number of cycles, typically in the range of 300 to
500 (although it does vary). So if you cycle the battery once every 3
days, you will pretty much "use up" the battery in about 3 years. But
it's the cycles that did it, not the calendar time.

The original discussion goes back to people who are using their laptops
primarily (or even just about totally) on AC power, which is a very
substantial number of laptop users (maybe even a majority). Those
people should remove the battery entirely, give it one cycle every 60 to
90 days or so (and not all the way down, but only to about 30% to 50%),
recharge it and put it away again. Someone who's really traveling with
the laptop and using the battery on planes, while traveling, etc.,
probably will exhaust the battery in a few years, but, again, hopefully
by getting the actual cycle useage out of it, and not by overheating it
or overcharging it.


Chip Orange wrote:

> thanks; I'm not trying to pretend I know, I'm looking for experts who do
> know, and I was quoting from batteryuniversity.com where they give the
> expected life of a li-ion battery as 2-3 years.
>
> I have to say that my first li-ion battery, in my A31 thinkpad, only went 18
> months before it would charge only to 50 percent of capacity.
>
> Perhaps the difference is they are reporting lifetimes as experienced by
> people like me who do nothing special to preserve the battery, while your
> experience may come from taking a lot of special care of the battery?
>
> fyi, I went for a third-party replacement instead of a genuine IBM and found
> one for $75 and one for $95. Time will tell I guess as to whether this was
> being frugal or being cheap!!
>
> Chip
>
>
> "Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:4116C2E0.9040501@neo.rr.com...
>
>>You are correct about "number of cycles" wearing out a lithium battery.
>> But, if the battery has not been excessively cycled (a "lot" of cycles
>>is in the mid-hundreds), and has not been over-charged or over-heated,
>>then 2 years calendar time should not be a problem. Lithium battery
>>systems are, chemically, among the most stable battery systems in
>>existence (both single-use and rechargeable), and they can last the
>>better part of a decade. I have a number of them from 1997 that are
>>still going strong, still about as good as when they were new.
>>
>>
>>Chip Orange wrote:
>>
>>
>>>and that is backed up by http://www.BatteryUniversity.com
>>>
>>>if the battery is over 2 years old or has more than say 400 cycles on
>
> it,
>
>>>I'd say it's more than likely worn out.
>>>
>>>
>>>"amn" <anaas@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
>>>news:41147ffa$0$43451$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
>>>
>>>
>>>>My understanding was that Li-ion batteries don't develop memory
>
> problems.
>
>>>>And my
>>>>experience with them does support that.
>>>>
>>>>"Graeme Nichols" <gnichols@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
>>>>news:411467c8$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hello Folks, my lap-top uses a lithium-ion battery, which the user
>>>>>manual with my lap-top says develop a memory, has indeed appeared to
>>>>>have developed a memory. The problem arose, I believe, because I always
>>>>>used the lap-top with the power supply. The problem now is that trying
>>>>>to use it on battery it is always telling me the battery is low. I try
>>>>>and discharge the battery by leaving the machine on until it runs the
>>>>>battery dead but I cannot fully re-charge it. Connecting the power
>>>>>supply results in a, apparent, full charge after about ten minutes.
>>>>>Switching to battery the machine starts beeping immediately with the
>
> low
>
>>>>>battery warning.
>>>>>
>>>>>Can this battery be saved and if so what do I need to do.
>>>>>
>>>>>TIA.
>>>>>
>>>>>Graeme.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 10, 2004 11:29:18 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

mike <spamme0@juno.com> wrote:
>A 10 year old laptop with a GOOD battery is a laptop that
>someone can use.

My 10 year old laptop (1994 vintage) has a 125 MHz drive, 40MHz processor, 8 Meg
of memory, a poorly visible mono screen, and came with DOS 5. Even if it had a
good battery It's very obsolete and virtually useless for any modern use.

>Face it, who really needs a 2GHz laptop??

I have to agree there. This new 2.9 GHz model of mine actually seems to run
slower for some apps than the 600MHz model it replaced. Probably cuz of XP. But
the modern wide high resolution 17" screen is fantastic and far superior by a
factor of ten to the model it replaced, and that technical advance alone is
worth the upgrade (to me).

>10 years from now most of us still will not really need a 2GHz laptop.

Ten years is a long time in computer years. I doubt that much of the 2014
software and peripherals will run on tokay's computers. None of my current
software or USB peripherals will run on my 1994 laptop.

>A 10 year old laptop with a BAD battery is a doorstop.

My 10 year old laptop *is* essentially a doorstop period... ;) 
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 10, 2004 5:48:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Re: "Say I remove it, do the hassle of cycling it, leave it on the
shelf, and it should happen to last for say 10 years. What good
is that?"

1. Your use pattern may change at any time. Having the good battery
may mean the difference between having to spend $200 for a new battery
or not.

2. When you go to sell the old laptop, having a good battery will
increase the value of the used laptop.

3. Not all of the batteries are as proprietary as you may think. The
2487 battery from a 1996 Toshiba 400CS could be used in a 2002 Toshiba
1415. That battery (sold as both the 2487 and the 3107) has had a
tremendous life, being used in many dozens of Toshiba laptops, possibly
over 100 different models.

The ONLY benefit to leaving the battery in the laptop is it's function
as a UPS. But you can buy a real UPS for $30 or less. Sacrificing a
$200 battery for that purpose seems wasteful to me, but it's your
laptop, your battery and your money.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 10, 2004 7:49:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

budgie wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:35:48 +1000, Graeme Nichols <gnichols@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>>Thanks to all who responded to my request. The end result is that it may
>>have gone the way of the do-do, its over two years old and I have, most
>>probably, contributed to its demise by running the lap-top with mains
>>power (thinking I was actually saving the battery from too many
>>charge/discharge cycles as in lead/acid batteries) most of the time.
>>Dumb, dumb, dumb!!!
>>
>>Ignorance is a very expensive state.
>
>
> It is more a case of ignorance than "dumb". The worst aspect is that the laptop
> manufacturers don't help. They COULD explain about the impact of 24x7 power to
> a laptop. Also, as battery endurance (hours per charge, not years per pack) is
> a selling feature they tend to use as high an end-of-charge voltage as they can
> get away with. Dropping this from 4v20 to 4v10 can increase lifetime (cycles)
> by a significant percentage which far exceeds the reduction in cycle energy.
> But hey <cycnicism> they sell battery packs don't they </cynicism>
>
>>I don't suppose anyone knows of a company in Australia who may
>>resurrect/repair these Li-ion batteries is there?
>
>
> First off, I'd be more than a little sceptical if anyone offers to "rejuvenate"
> Li-Ion packs without having specific knowledge of the model/configuration you
> have. And if they plan to do it without opening the pack, the words "snake oil
> salesman" should be ringing in your ears.

Hi budgie, yep! I reckon you would be right. Anyway, I reckon from the
replies I've had the battery is cactus. I'll run the laptop without the
battery until I can afford a new one and knowing what I now know I may
be able to keep it going a little longer. Thanks.

Graeme.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 10, 2004 10:56:36 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4118D38F.7060509@neo.rr.com...
> Re: "Say I remove it, do the hassle of cycling it, leave it on the
> shelf, and it should happen to last for say 10 years. What good
> is that?"
>
> 1. Your use pattern may change at any time. Having the good battery
> may mean the difference between having to spend $200 for a new battery
> or not.
>
> 2. When you go to sell the old laptop, having a good battery will
> increase the value of the used laptop.
>
> 3. Not all of the batteries are as proprietary as you may think. The
> 2487 battery from a 1996 Toshiba 400CS could be used in a 2002 Toshiba
> 1415. That battery (sold as both the 2487 and the 3107) has had a
> tremendous life, being used in many dozens of Toshiba laptops, possibly
> over 100 different models.
>
> The ONLY benefit to leaving the battery in the laptop is it's function
> as a UPS. But you can buy a real UPS for $30 or less. Sacrificing a
> $200 battery for that purpose seems wasteful to me, but it's your
> laptop, your battery and your money.
>

Perhaps you're right;, but, if you, or especially your wife, do lift eh
laptop from the port replicator once in a while it's worth something not to
have to go hunt down the battery (say in the fridge?) to get it working
(especially if you leave the house in a hurry and find you've forgotten it).

Suppose we use more realistic numbers (since I've just been through this);
18 months for bad battery care, and guessing, 3 years for good battery care.
I just spent $100 for a replacement, so is it worht it to me to have a UPS
and the convenience of my battery being ready for 3 years for an additional
$100? It might be. $33 a year just not to have to help my wife each time
she wants to take the laptop might be worth it!! ;) 

Chip
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 11, 2004 3:07:40 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>Sacrificing a $200 battery for that purpose seems wasteful to me,
>but it's your laptop, your battery and your money.

That's why I used the word *subjective* in my post referring to the 'leave it
in/leave it out' argument. You said in your post that people who use laptops
totally on AC power "should" (quote below) do it your way. I just gave a few
reasons to the general audience why they (and I) might not want to go through
the hassle. Ideas are what is great about Usenet. The more the better. That I
disagree with your premise is nothing personal, simply an observation. You have
the last word... ;) 


>The original discussion goes back to people who are using their laptops
>primarily (or even just about totally) on AC power, which is a very
>substantial number of laptop users (maybe even a majority). Those
>people should remove the battery entirely, give it one cycle every 60 to
>90 days or so (and not all the way down, but only to about 30% to 50%),
>recharge it and put it away again.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 11, 2004 5:54:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

No one ever suggested putting the battery in the fridge (????) ! [it's
not an absurd suggestion and actually might prolong the life, but in my
view it's overkill and, in any case, you were the first to suggest it]

Based on my own experiences, I'd say that leaving a battery in a typical
laptop which is AC powered continuously will shorten the battery life
75% or more in about 18 months or less. This isn't universal, by any
means, but it's my own observation of the most typical outcome that I
personally have seen.

Also, realistically, I'd say that the expected life of a lithium battery
that is not normally used at all (e.g. sits in a drawer) but that is
cycled (but not DEEP-cycled) every 90 days, is more than 5 years (I have
multiple Toshiba examples doing well at 7 years, and no li-ion batteries
older than that to comment on either way).

Don't forget that the UPS will power the laptop for several times longer
than the battery, AND will power auxilliary equipment as well (for
example, a cable modem and router -- no small issue in a power failure).
So there are benefits to using a real UPS notwithstanding that it may
save the battery (whatever the cost of that battery, which in almost all
cases will be much more (several times more) than the cost of a UPS
bought on sale).


Chip Orange wrote:

> "Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:4118D38F.7060509@neo.rr.com...
>
>>Re: "Say I remove it, do the hassle of cycling it, leave it on the
>>shelf, and it should happen to last for say 10 years. What good
>>is that?"
>>
>>1. Your use pattern may change at any time. Having the good battery
>>may mean the difference between having to spend $200 for a new battery
>>or not.
>>
>>2. When you go to sell the old laptop, having a good battery will
>>increase the value of the used laptop.
>>
>>3. Not all of the batteries are as proprietary as you may think. The
>>2487 battery from a 1996 Toshiba 400CS could be used in a 2002 Toshiba
>>1415. That battery (sold as both the 2487 and the 3107) has had a
>>tremendous life, being used in many dozens of Toshiba laptops, possibly
>>over 100 different models.
>>
>>The ONLY benefit to leaving the battery in the laptop is it's function
>>as a UPS. But you can buy a real UPS for $30 or less. Sacrificing a
>>$200 battery for that purpose seems wasteful to me, but it's your
>>laptop, your battery and your money.
>>
>
>
> Perhaps you're right;, but, if you, or especially your wife, do lift eh
> laptop from the port replicator once in a while it's worth something not to
> have to go hunt down the battery (say in the fridge?) to get it working
> (especially if you leave the house in a hurry and find you've forgotten it).
>
> Suppose we use more realistic numbers (since I've just been through this);
> 18 months for bad battery care, and guessing, 3 years for good battery care.
> I just spent $100 for a replacement, so is it worht it to me to have a UPS
> and the convenience of my battery being ready for 3 years for an additional
> $100? It might be. $33 a year just not to have to help my wife each time
> she wants to take the laptop might be worth it!! ;) 
>
> Chip
>
>
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 11, 2004 11:12:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Barry Watzman" typed:

> The ONLY benefit to leaving the battery in the laptop is it's
> function as a UPS. But you can buy a real UPS for $30 or less.
> Sacrificing a $200 battery for that purpose seems wasteful to me,
> but it's your laptop, your battery and your money.

At my place, a UPS costs three times a new Li-ion battery does. But
I keep the battery in the pocket of my notebook bag whenever I'm
using my refurbished laptop on mains power. In fact, the authorised
dealer I bought the refurbished laptop from advised me to keep the
battery out of the laptop when running on mains power.

--
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b } Memory
a b D Laptop
August 11, 2004 11:12:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Here in the US, we can buy APC 350 VA UPS' for $30 quite often, on sale,
and with rebates. Sometimes they are as little as $10, and sometimes
for $30 you can get a 500VA unit (although I don't think that I've seen
an APC 500VA at that price). All of those costs are way below the cost
of any Li-ion battery.


Ayaz Ahmed Khan wrote:
> "Barry Watzman" typed:
>
>
>>The ONLY benefit to leaving the battery in the laptop is it's
>>function as a UPS. But you can buy a real UPS for $30 or less.
>>Sacrificing a $200 battery for that purpose seems wasteful to me,
>>but it's your laptop, your battery and your money.
>
>
> At my place, a UPS costs three times a new Li-ion battery does. But
> I keep the battery in the pocket of my notebook bag whenever I'm
> using my refurbished laptop on mains power. In fact, the authorised
> dealer I bought the refurbished laptop from advised me to keep the
> battery out of the laptop when running on mains power.
>
!