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PCI Express x16 vs 2.0

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January 30, 2010 1:24:17 AM

Hey people. I'm building an extremely budget gaming rig (me being in the mid teens, don't exactly make a lot of money).

After tons of consideration, I chose Radeon HD 4670 as my GPU (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E1681...). Its a good balance between how much I can spend on it and performance (apparently it runs Modern Warfare 2 with all maxed settings on a Dual-core machine).

But being extremely tightly budgeted, I had to chose a sub-$50 motherboard that works for me (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E1681...), but it only has PCI Express x16 1.0 slots. The HD 4670 is a PCI Express x16 2.0. The first okay motherboard for PCIe x16 2.0 is sub-$70 (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E1681...).

Sure I could afford it, but I did some research and found out PCIe x16 2.0 has backwards compatibility with 1.x, but has a lower bandwidth (one half). And then I heard somewhere that even a HD 4670 would not be able to use up all 2.5GB/s of the bandwidth.

How much performance would I be losing if I were to use a x16 1.0 motherboard as opposed to a x16 2.0 motherboard?

On another note, heres the original build.
Celeron Dual-Core E3300 2.5GHz - $54.99
MSI G31TM-P21 Motherboard - $44.99
2GB (2x 1GB) Wintec AMPX DDR2 800MHz Dual Channel RAM - $40.99
GIGABYTE GV-R467ZL-1GI Radeon HD 4670 DDR3 1GB - $77.49
Already have case, power supply, DVD drives and hard drives.
$263.58 after tax and shipping. Pretty cheap for max setting on MW2 huh :D ?

More about : pci express x16

a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
January 30, 2010 2:14:03 AM

now way you will get maxed settings with your setup, the processor would be bottlenecked

go with this setup

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... ....57
AMD Athlon II x2 AM3 2.6 ghz

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Patriot RAM DDR2 800.....39

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Biostar, AM3/AM2+ PCIe x16 2.0..........60

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
XFX 4670.....70

total:226


slightly more expensive but this way you can actually have good game play unlike the celeron which would choke the 4670

this system will blow away the one you listed
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
January 30, 2010 2:17:09 AM

PCIe 2.0 x8 = PCIe 1.0 x16 ---> This is good enough for any single GPU on the market
PCIe 2.0 x4 = PCIe 1.0 x8

Related resources
a c 189 U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
January 30, 2010 7:46:49 AM

Yeah, go with Upendra's plan, it's much better... :) 
a c 376 U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
January 30, 2010 12:37:08 PM

Yeah, upendra is on the right track. I would go with a Athlon II x3, an actual AM3 board and DDR3 ram for slightly more however. Also that DDR2 HD4670 should be avoided;
AMD Athlon II X3 425 Rana 2.7GHz - $72
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
ASUS M4N68T-M - $62.50
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
CORSAIR 2GB DDR3 1333 - $55
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
POWERCOLOR HD 4670 1GB - $70
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
That totals $260 is MUCH better than that celeron system.

If you can afford slightly more 4 gigs of ram is definitely a good idea
G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB DDR3 1600 - $85
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
January 30, 2010 1:59:50 PM

^ i was gonna recommend a similar setup with a x3 phenom ii but thought it would be too expensive
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
January 30, 2010 4:26:35 PM

yes but the 775 is EOL, he won't be able to upgrade, later on. the AM3 is totally future proof he can upgrade to even a 945 later on
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
January 30, 2010 5:49:08 PM

An E3300 costs $55
An E5200 costs around $59
An E5300 costs around $65

Get the E5x00 since it has more cache and is generally better than dual celerons. IMO get the dual-celeron if you can find a model around $30-$40.
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
January 30, 2010 5:58:32 PM

there aren't any of those^
January 30, 2010 6:13:54 PM

Hey guys, thanks for the replies.

I'm thinking the E3300 wouldn't choke the card, as these are the new Wolfdale chips. I've seen benchmarks of people running a 1.83GHz Dual-Core with the HD 4670 running max settings and Fraps and still getting 40+ FPS.

As much as I like Upendra and jvjjy's setup, but its based on Newegg.com. I have to use Newegg.ca cause I'm in Canada, and you'd have to add pretty much $10 to every item there. Both of their setups would end up close if not over $300 before shipping and tax.

Not to take sides, but I prefer Intel over AMD where the price is possible, and would like to stick to it as much as possible. My question has been answered and chances are I'm going ahead with this plan.
a c 376 U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
January 30, 2010 6:31:11 PM

Whatever benchmarks you saw certainly were not in cpu intensive current games.
The tiny cache on that Celeron will really hurt you in gaming. At least get an e5200 if you don't want to go for an AMD system.
a c 376 U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
January 30, 2010 6:51:13 PM

I checked newegg.ca
You can get basically the same thing I linked but actually cheaper because there is a CPU/motherboard combo;
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Item...
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E1682...
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E1681...
Total = $247. Still probably a bit more expensive after tax but there's even a $18 mail in rebate to help offset that.
I know you have a preference for Intel but that system is simply much better than what you are looking at. Better processor with an extra core, DDR3 ram, newer and better chipset on the motherboard. When working with that kind of a budget it's a mistake to not go for the best for the money.
January 31, 2010 12:38:11 AM

wa1 said:
Yeah, go with Upendra's plan, it's much better... :) 

I back up wal, there are limits with that present setup.
February 1, 2010 11:06:42 PM

Umm I don't get why you'd prefer a E3200 over a E3300. Is it because on the E3200 it has VT Technologies while the E3300 doesn't? They literally $1 different on Newegg.ca, I thought, heck, why not go for the extra 0.1GHz.

I tried the AMD Setups, with shipping and taxes to where I am, they go over the Intel Setup by. I realize I might not be getting maxed settings, but I'd expect this to get a good 80%, which is a pretty decent upgrade for a guy whos been playing on minimum settings.

Oh, and I'm seeking a new motherboard. Even I know the G31 chipset is old. Can anyone recommend a good budget one assuming I'm using a E3200 or E3300? Thanks.
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
February 1, 2010 11:19:59 PM

you won't get 80% with that

that processor is weak and it will only last you a year, if you can afford to throw money and that then go ahead but looking at what you stated about your tight budget i don't think you can afford that

go with the AMD system and while it may be a bit more expensive it will allow you to save more money in the longrun which will help make up for what you spent now

what i mean is

you buy the celeron system and the next time you want to play something worthwhile you will definately have to buy another system


buy the AMD setup and you will be able to keep the same system and even if you do have to upgrade, you can just get a Phenom II which will give you results comarable to the i7/i5 or the Athlon IIx4 which is comparable to the i3 and low i5s

you choice no, look at the best option for now and later
February 2, 2010 12:13:40 AM

Upendra I'm looking into the AMD Processors, and it seems you reply pretty quick so I got a question.

I'm considering between Athlon II X2s and Athlon II X3s. They both seem to cost prety much the same with combos. The X2s have 2x1MB L2 Cache, a the X3s have 3x512KB L2 Cache. And it seems by what you're saying that L2 Caches are pretty important.

Should I got for a one less core, but more Cache X2, or one more core but slightly less Cache X3?

Oh, and is a board with nVidia north/southbridges better or worse than a AMD one?
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2010 12:21:27 AM

that is sort of a hard question

you can have one extra core for future proof and it helps in gaming

but more cahce helps a bit in games and depending on the game it will show more results

now in the case of MW2 i don't believe it is multi threaded so i recommend you get the x2 with sightly more cache

later on once games get to be more multi threaded, you can move on to a Phenom II or Athlon quad

so if you plan on playing the newest games then go triple core but if you plan on playing slightly older games and simpler like MW2 then go with a double

and when i say newer and simpler i mean new games like GTA that are more CPU intensive so more cores=more FPS and by simpler i mean games that aren't multi threaded and therefore more GPU intensive so stronger GPU=more FPS and cache plays a bigger role
February 2, 2010 12:50:12 AM

Alright, so it comes down to these two setups:

Intel Setup:
Intel Celeron Dual-Core E3200 - 2.5GHz ($53)
ASRock G41M-GS Motherboard ($52)
Wintec AMPX 2x 1GB DDR2 800 RAM ($41)
Gigabyte Radeon HD 4670 1GB ($77)
Total: $224 (After Shipping + Tax: $270)

AMD Setup:
AMD Athlon II X2 245 - 2.9GHz ($66)
ASRock A785GM-LE/128M Motherboard ($70)
Wintec AMPX 2x 1GB DDR2 800 RAM ($41)
Gigabyte Radeon HD 4670 1GB ($77)
Total: $254 (After Shipping + Taxes: $304)

All the missing parts (HDD, PSU, Case) I already have.

Things to keep in mind:
@This rig is supposed to last me 3 years, and I don't plan on upgrading anytime between that. In 3 years I'll be moving on to University and probably buying a laptop and ditching desktops completely.

@Games I'll be running on it are mostly FPS. Modern Warfare 2 is the prime example. Along with CoD4, Crysis, Battlefield, etc. Mostly the big hits in the recent years that I never had the rig to play with. Along with maybe whatever comes in the next 3 years. I have a PS3, so many things can also work there.

@I don't plan on overclocking at all, as I think that damages the system. But if I have to, I'd probably put it up ~0.3GHz more, and thats it.

@The graphic card stays. I think thats the best I can do for my budget.

@And I simply don't have the room for DDR3 RAM, that would mean more expensive motherboard and RAM.

Thanks for the help!
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2010 1:07:09 AM

oh so you are a freshman? same here

again the AMD rig is the best

i may seem like an AMD fanboy but right now AMD is the best setup there

if you don't plan on upgrading and keeping the same rig then i would recommend a athlon x3 setup but even the dual core should be fine for all the games you play

however, i don't want to put a damper on things but we really need to know your PSU

they will make or break the computer, a low brand PSU will kill your computer
February 2, 2010 1:16:52 AM

I was using a 300 Watt PSU from who know what brand.

Theres a 400 Watt Asus PSU in a computer in the other room I could take. But I think I have to consider a 500 Watt brand-name PSU too.
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2010 11:27:45 AM

no a 400 watt is plenty for that setup, make sure it is one of these brands though

silverstone, Seasonic, PC&PC(PC and power cooling), Corsair, OCZ, ASUS, Antec, Thermaltake, Gigabyte is ok, Zalman is also ok, and mushkin

the last three don't specialize in PSUs but they make good mobos, HSF, and RAM

respectively
a c 376 U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2010 12:29:29 PM

A triple core cpu and AM3 board/DDR3 ram are definitely the way to go if you are looking for a system to last you 3 years. I recommending putting this off a bit until you can save the extra $20-30 required for such. Or just for better deals to show up. Just a few days ago I posted links for such a setup that was cheaper than what you are looking at now but unfortunately the combo is no longer available.
If you aren't overclocking(you really should, it doesn't damage anything) you shouldn't consider the e3200 setup. It's one advantage would've been that wolfdale cores can usually OC a crazy amount.
February 2, 2010 2:12:13 PM

I think 99.99% overclocking is safe. I didnt know anything about overclocking only one month ago. But after buying my pc i spent one/two days on researching and made my E5200, 3.3ghz without any aftermarket cooler . Its very easy and modern cpus dont die for overclocking. So u are safe.

I suggest you to go for intel (E5200/E5300), save $30 , overclock it, if u can.
spend more on graphics card, if you add $30-40. You can buy hd4770/hd4830/hd4850/gts 250/9800gt. Which will improve your total gaming performance.

I have built my rig (with the advice of jyjjy) a few weeks ago-
Dual Core E5200
2GB RAM
Gigabyte GA-G31M-ES2L
Samsung 750GB HDD
Thermaltake 400w psu
LG 20" (1600x900)
will buy GTS 250 in this week.

I built this rig for light gaming and school works same as u. I was on a very tight budget(same reason-being a teen & spent my parent's money)

you can also select gigabyte ga-g31m-es2l mobo...Its a great little overclocker and very cheap.
February 2, 2010 2:22:35 PM

hello want to buy a Gigabyte Radeon HD 4670 video card problem is I have 754 motherboard with nForce4 chipset PCI Express v1.0. from what I understood going 2.0 to 1.0. Another problem is the 1.0 is transmitted through the slot 75 of w and the 2.0 is transmitted through the slot 150w and Gigabyte Radeon HD 4670 card in idle and on load pull aprox.70 w aprox.139w (as Tom's Hardware and others but official) as compensate for the difference in watts when having to play the the board has no separate power ????. or is it better in this situation with a different video card powered Taking into account that PCIe v1.0 slot transmit only 75 W?? thank you
a c 376 U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2010 2:31:33 PM

Cards without a power connector like the HD4670 are designed to work within the 75w the PCIe slot delivers and 2.0 cards are backward compatible with 1.0 so you should be fine.
Also you should start your own thread in the future if you have a question.
February 2, 2010 7:46:51 PM

thanks jyjjy shader.one last question .gigabyte Radeon HD 4670 with 750MHz and 2000 MHz memory I read that there are cases when you have to do downclocks. will be the case and this video card and my PC configuration??? thanks
February 2, 2010 8:58:19 PM

mihgeo I don't think theres a Gigabyte Radeon HD4670 with those clocks. But if you're wondering that, I'm pretty sure its not gonna underclock by itself, and its probably safe to keep it that way if the manufacturer sold it that way. And if you were wondering the same thing I was wondering with this thread, no current graphic card will use up the bandwidth of PCIe X16 1.0, so even if its downclocked from the 2.0, it'll be the same.

And guys, is overclocking really safe? I just fear it will decrease the lifespan of the parts. If its safe, how much am I able to stable overclock with these two processors with stock cooling? And how much will that boost the performance?
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2010 11:51:14 PM

it is safe if you keep the processor at stock temps or lower than stock to increase life expectancy
the e6200 is the god of OCing

the Athlon II is average
February 3, 2010 5:59:54 AM

Yeah....Its safe for sure....I think Upendra09 tried to mean E5200 not e6200 . . . . Really if you know how to overclock , E5200 will give u best bang for the buck . . . .It will give better performance than e7200,e7500 when overclocked. . . . It won't decrease ur lifetime noticeablely. . . .With worst case,worst airflow, high room temperature you may get 3.0ghz and generally you can expect 3.2-3.3ghz. . . . .E5200,E5300,E5400 are exactly the same chip with different stock speed. . . .So there is no to spend more on E5300. . . .
a c 376 U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
February 3, 2010 12:18:05 PM

dj_beggar said:
Really if you know how to overclock , E5200 will give u best bang for the buck . . . .

Only on the Intel side. You can get an Athlon II x3 chip for the same price and it's a better choice on the low end especially for gaming;
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-gaming-cpu,252...
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
February 3, 2010 8:25:23 PM

dj_beggar said:
Yeah....Its safe for sure....I think Upendra09 tried to mean E5200 not e6200 . . . . Really if you know how to overclock , E5200 will give u best bang for the buck . . . .It will give better performance than e7200,e7500 when overclocked. . . . It won't decrease ur lifetime noticeablely. . . .With worst case,worst airflow, high room temperature you may get 3.0ghz and generally you can expect 3.2-3.3ghz. . . . .E5200,E5300,E5400 are exactly the same chip with different stock speed. . . .So there is no to spend more on E5300. . . .


yeah i meant the E5200


the Athlon II x3 is also great from AMD
February 4, 2010 9:22:19 PM

I could probably get a E5200, seeing I have the Intel Setup at $30 cheaper than the AMD Setup. I absolutely can't get an Athlon II X3, $300 is the absolute highest I can spent.

I'm not sure to get E5200 or E5300, because E5300 has Virtualization Technology, I dunno if that has anything do with gaming. And also, all of them doesn't seem to have Hyperthreading, is that gonna have a big impact?

By the way, I changed the motherboard to Gigabyte GA-G31M-ES2L like someone recommended earlier in the thread. I was thrilled to hear Snow Leopard works perfectly on this board with E3200, and also with the E5200. So I'll be running some OS X on there too.
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
February 4, 2010 9:51:57 PM

you don't need hyperthreading for MW2

virtualization is so that you can virtualizeXP in Win7

but even that isn't necessary

for under 300 i would say go with the e5200 if you will OC or the Athlon 240 if you won't OC
February 4, 2010 10:27:09 PM

would it be completely impossible to virtualize anything without Virtualization Technology? Cause I'll be using Snow Leopard as my main OS (I'm a huge Apple fanboy), and Windows 7 for gaming, I'll probably be running everyday Windows apps on Parallels 5 on Snow Leopard, with out VT I can't do that?
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
February 5, 2010 2:17:12 AM

i think so.... i think VT just helps speed things up a bit

February 5, 2010 10:33:18 AM

i have seen that E5300 support Virtualization technology but i guess all the E5300 may not support VT. . . .only some special models of E5200 supports VT. . . .Not sure though. . . . . If u are on a tight budget Gigabyte GA-G31M-ES2L is great for OCing . . . Just search about it for OCing on THW.Com and google. . .
!