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Petition for a fully localized german version.

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Anonymous
June 2, 2004 3:29:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

Sure, you couldn't care less if english is your native language. But Thief
1 and 2 had great localization with very good voice acting. And _that_
added a lot to the atmosphere of the game.

But now Eidos decides to ignore more than 100 Million german speaking
people by not localizing the game. Many gamer allready stated not to by the
game because of that (especially when it's so much story driven like the
Thief series).

Please 'help' us by signing the petition at:

http://www.petitiononline.com/dsfordv/petition.html

--
Wenn Du sachlich argumentierst, hast Du im Regelfall weder wiederholte
Ausrufezeichen noch das Schreiben in Großbuchstaben nötig.
(Matthias Esken in de.soc.netzkultur)

More about : petition fully localized german version

Anonymous
June 2, 2004 5:07:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

Martin Seibert wrote:
> Sure, you couldn't care less if english is your native language. But Thief
> 1 and 2 had great localization with very good voice acting. And _that_
> added a lot to the atmosphere of the game.
>
> But now Eidos decides to ignore more than 100 Million german speaking
> people by not localizing the game. Many gamer allready stated not to by the
> game because of that (especially when it's so much story driven like the
> Thief series).
>
> Please 'help' us by signing the petition at:
>
> http://www.petitiononline.com/dsfordv/petition.html
>
Whoa, you mean T1/T2 had a version with all the voice acting done in
German?!

That's awesome! Too bad I don't speak German. I would almost pay to
play it that way - I know the gist of the missions, so it's not like I'd
be totally lost.

Objekt
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 7:33:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Objekt" <t37student@yahoo.com> schrieb:

[..]
> > Please 'help' us by signing the petition at:
> >
> > http://www.petitiononline.com/dsfordv/petition.html
> >
> Whoa, you mean T1/T2 had a version with all the voice acting done in
> German?!

Yes. Thief 1 and 2 was fully localized with professional speakers which
is often NOT the case for other localized games (i.e. bad voice acting,
bad translation, etc. - you get the point). But Eidos did a GREAT job
with T1/2. The voice of Garret fits perfectly into the dark atmosphere.

And knowing and loving T1 and 2 we are no more than pissed off and feel
ripped off because we will only get text translation (and from what
I've heard, it's a bad translation, too). And it takes a lot away from
the atmosphere if you have a) to READ translation instead of only listening
and b) even for those of us who knows english a little (like me :p ), it's
for sure a p. in the a. if we don't understand whispered or mumbled (sp?)
words. Well, I guess you know what I mean.

Seems Eidos has not enough money to do a proper localisation. And hearing
rumours about closing Ionstorm I'm wondering how long Eidos will stay in
business.

Anway, any additional vote might help us. And like I said, you 'english
guys' couldn't care less, but aren't we one big family of thief fans? ;-)

> That's awesome! Too bad I don't speak German. I would almost pay to
> play it that way - I know the gist of the missions, so it's not like I'd
> be totally lost.

Well, I don't get the point why you would want to do that, but hey, more
power to you if you'll give it a try. *g*

Just one thing I might add: I'm not sure if you foreign speakers would like
the same voices (in this case, the german voice of Garret) like we do,
because we are 'aligned' to like a particular voice type which may differ
to what you like. No matter if the voice is female or male.

I heard a few times some spanish voice actors, and I can say: they sound
more or less all the same to me and it also sounded pretty boring from the
sound of their voices. That alone made the movie a pretty boring experience. But on the other hand, spanish gals'n'guys might like
it.

So I'm not sure if YOU would like Garrets voice as much as WE like it. ;-)

--
Muphy's Naturgesetze:
10.) Je einfacher eine Änderung zu sein scheint, um so größere
Kreise zieht sie und um so mehr Pläne müssen neu erstellt werden.
Related resources
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 7:44:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 11:29:20 +0200, "Martin Seibert" <realsyntech@gmx.at>
wrote:

>Sure, you couldn't care less if english is your native language. But Thief
>1 and 2 had great localization with very good voice acting. And _that_
>added a lot to the atmosphere of the game.
>
>But now Eidos decides to ignore more than 100 Million german speaking
>people by not localizing the game. Many gamer allready stated not to by the
>game because of that (especially when it's so much story driven like the
>Thief series).
>
>Please 'help' us by signing the petition at:
>
>http://www.petitiononline.com/dsfordv/petition.html

*signed*

Well, I wonder if the German fans can do their own localization? The file
format for T1 and T2 is obviously different but maybe the Deus Ex 2
hackers and modding community have figured out the formats that T3 uses?

A group of English Gothic fans recently completed their own translation of
Die Nacht des Raben because it seemed like Atari was not going to release
it. So if Eidos doesn't come through with a German version perhaps all
hope isn't lost?

--
Michael Cecil
http://home.comcast.net/~macecil/
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 8:16:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Martin Seibert" <realsyntech@gmx.at> wrote in message
news:2i5kvrFjd9h3U1@uni-berlin.de...
> Sure, you couldn't care less if english is your native language. But Thief
> 1 and 2 had great localization with very good voice acting. And _that_
> added a lot to the atmosphere of the game.
>
> But now Eidos decides to ignore more than 100 Million german speaking
> people by not localizing the game. Many gamer allready stated not to by
the
> game because of that (especially when it's so much story driven like the
> Thief series).
>
> Please 'help' us by signing the petition at:
>
> http://www.petitiononline.com/dsfordv/petition.html
>
> --
> Wenn Du sachlich argumentierst, hast Du im Regelfall weder wiederholte
> Ausrufezeichen noch das Schreiben in Großbuchstaben nötig.
> (Matthias Esken in de.soc.netzkultur)
>
>

Not to be a party pooper... but wouldn't it make the game more expensive to
localize? It's not like localizing a program, as there's more voice than
text.... and, most Germans, like all us other Europeans, speak fairly well
English?

I come from a nation with only 4 million people, and wouldn't dream of
expecting any game to be translated into my native tounge, simply because I
realize it would cost too much money :)  It might pay off for game developers
to translate a game to the most extensively used languages like German,
Spanish. French and Italian though - and Russian for that matter - but
somehow I sense it will cost more than what they get back if they did...

I do however symphatize with the feeling fo not being able to get the same
enjoyment out of a not localized version of Thief, especially now that Thief
DP and 2 *was* translated, and I also know that you have a huge fan
community in Germany - where some of the very best fan missions come from!

But still... I can't help but thinking that there will be less and less of
translated versions of any game, especially when English is getting so
widely used by the European population.

I wish you all the best in getting a translated version though!
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 8:16:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

http://www.thief-thecircle.com/shownews.asp?id=1671

Notibly: UK/Europe:
Differences between US and Euro versions: No game play differences.
Localized text for German, French and Italian. No foreign voice
recording--all voicework is in English. Euro versions default to "subtitles
on."

I wrote a nice long post as to why you shouldn't bother with a petition for
German voice recording but I'll spare you. In summation, the more petitions
that exist, the weaker the voice of the community. Is Eidos likely to grant
us 1 wish for a toolset or 50 wishes for minor tweaks? Simple as that.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 8:23:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 12:13:04 -0400, "CB Hamlyn" <cbh@newenglandhomes.net>
wrote:

>http://www.thief-thecircle.com/shownews.asp?id=1671
>
>Notibly: UK/Europe:
>Differences between US and Euro versions: No game play differences.
>Localized text for German, French and Italian. No foreign voice
>recording--all voicework is in English. Euro versions default to "subtitles
>on."
>
>I wrote a nice long post as to why you shouldn't bother with a petition for
>German voice recording but I'll spare you. In summation, the more petitions
>that exist, the weaker the voice of the community. Is Eidos likely to grant
>us 1 wish for a toolset or 50 wishes for minor tweaks? Simple as that.

I think with the dismissal of the IonStorm staff, they won't be granting
anything, but releasing the toolset is a completely different issue and
doesn't require paying voice actors or anything major like that.

Anyhow, I have a feeling that since they just used someone else's game
engine that they don't have the rights to release the toolset.

--
Michael Cecil
http://home.comcast.net/~macecil/
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 8:23:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

> I think with the dismissal of the IonStorm staff, they won't be granting
> anything, but releasing the toolset is a completely different issue and
> doesn't require paying voice actors or anything major like that.
>
True enough, but even something as minor as a patch requires time, money and
effort. I think it's better spent making the game better, not catering to a
minority of it's fanbase.

> Anyhow, I have a feeling that since they just used someone else's game
> engine that they don't have the rights to release the toolset.
>
I don't see how in the world you came up with that conclusion. Several of
the IS staff have posted in forums asking the fans to send the word out to
Eidos to show them there's an interest for a toolset. Not exactly the
actions of someone bound by contracts to not release a toolset. Besides, an
engine has little to nothing to do with the game's actual content, which is
what the toolset allows you to modify. I've never seen a toolset that
allows you to modify the actual engine.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 9:04:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"McEve" <mceve@azcappy.com> schrieb:

> Not to be a party pooper... but wouldn't it make the game more expensive
> to localize? It's not like localizing a program, as there's more voice
> than text.... and, most Germans, like all us other Europeans, speak
> fairly well English?

But fairly well is not enough, especially if words are _spoken_. And sure,
it costs quite some money, but hey, we usually pay between 45-50 Euros
per game. And we also have to pay that for Thief 3, translated or not.

That's why many people say, they wait until the game drops in price
because the don't want to pay full money for a game that is not fully
translated. And I don't think it's hard to understand that if I buy a
game I also want to understand it. I mean, what's the point of spending
money on something you can't get everything out of it?

Well, I'm _not_ german but I speak german. And german is (I guess) the
most comman language used in europe based on population. So there IS a
marked share that definately makes a difference.

And by the way, I don't think Eidos will sell many copies in France. It
can be that they say, "if it's not in french, it's not in our country".

Oh well, we will see how things go on.

> But still... I can't help but thinking that there will be less and less
> of translated versions of any game, especially when English is getting so
> widely used by the European population.

Well, it makes a big difference (for non native english speakers) to
- read english
- listen to english
- listen to whispered english
- listen to some people speaking english at the same time

and

- understand phrases
- understand metaphers
- understand slang
- understand things you've never heard before

See, the point is that I think many of us might understand the basic story
behind Thief 3, but the point is to understand everything and because of
that, to be able to dive into the story. That is impossible if you have to
constantly think "what did he/she say?". It just takes away way too much
from the atmosphere if you don't understand _everything_.

> I wish you all the best in getting a translated version though!

Thank you. BTW, did you sign the petition? *g*

--
Muphy's Naturgesetze:
10.) Je einfacher eine Änderung zu sein scheint, um so größere
Kreise zieht sie und um so mehr Pläne müssen neu erstellt werden.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 10:29:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"CB Hamlyn" <cbh@newenglandhomes.net> wrote in message
news:10brv3uph3lgrc1@corp.supernews.com...
> http://www.thief-thecircle.com/shownews.asp?id=1671
>
> Notibly: UK/Europe:
> Differences between US and Euro versions: No game play differences.
> Localized text for German, French and Italian. No foreign voice
> recording--all voicework is in English. Euro versions default to
"subtitles
> on."
>
> I wrote a nice long post as to why you shouldn't bother with a petition
for
> German voice recording but I'll spare you. In summation, the more
petitions
> that exist, the weaker the voice of the community. Is Eidos likely to
grant
> us 1 wish for a toolset or 50 wishes for minor tweaks? Simple as that.
>
>

I have to agree... the editor is much more important...
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 11:38:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Michael Cecil" <macecil@comcast.net> schrieb:

[..]
> >Please 'help' us by signing the petition at:
> >
> >http://www.petitiononline.com/dsfordv/petition.html
>
> *signed*

Thanks. ;-)

And now, it is not _my_ petition. I only thought it might help to 'spread
the word' *g*

> Well, I wonder if the German fans can do their own localization? The
> file format for T1 and T2 is obviously different but maybe the Deus Ex 2
> hackers and modding community have figured out the formats that T3 uses?

The point is not written text. The main issue is the missing spoken word.
Written text can be read without hassle (and with a dictionary beside the
keyboard). Following a conversation is much more difficult.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 11:38:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

> > Well, I wonder if the German fans can do their own localization? The
> > file format for T1 and T2 is obviously different but maybe the Deus Ex 2
> > hackers and modding community have figured out the formats that T3 uses?
>
> The point is not written text. The main issue is the missing spoken word.
> Written text can be read without hassle (and with a dictionary beside the
> keyboard). Following a conversation is much more difficult.
>
It appears the European version will have the option of German Subtitles.
Short of paying a bunch of voice actors to read them for the German fans out
there, I don't really understand the point of this petition.
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 2:19:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 11:29:20 +0200, "Martin Seibert"
<realsyntech@gmx.at> wrote:

>Sure, you couldn't care less if english is your native language. But Thief
>1 and 2 had great localization with very good voice acting. And _that_
>added a lot to the atmosphere of the game.
>
>But now Eidos decides to ignore more than 100 Million german speaking
>people by not localizing the game. Many gamer allready stated not to by the
>game because of that (especially when it's so much story driven like the
>Thief series).
>
>Please 'help' us by signing the petition at:
>
>http://www.petitiononline.com/dsfordv/petition.html


Excuse me for the upcoming rant,
[rant]
...but what planet are you from? Do you really think there's even a
snowball's chance in hell that they're gonna *double up* the voice
acting on a game THAT'S ALREADY BEEN RELEASED, for a market
demographic that by and large already know English fluently enough to
fully comprehend any English based computer game ever, in the same
time opening a can of worms of other frivolous petitions from all the
other countries who'd prefer playing the game in their native
language?! I mean, were you people born yesterday?!

The *only* potential impact upon the Thief community by this petition
is that Eidos loses any interest (pending of course that they have any
to begin with) whatsoever in catering to it. Every computer game
studio and its uncle Bob knows that gamers by and large are a bunch of
whining knowitall ingrates whom you really can't fully satisfy. It's
the nature of the beast. Even considering the whining and crying we've
seen after the release of DX2, the Thief community is probably among
the most loyal of gaming communites ever. I think what needs to be
done for Eidos to release the T3 editor, is to make them understand
that we're a better long term investments than the average bunch of
gamers. This petition's only potential is to cause the exact opposite
effect, when the Eidos suits realize that there are many of us who
actually petitions for a doubling of the voice acting content AFTER
THE GAME HAS BEEN RELEASED!
The only thing you can accomplish is to make Eidos systematically
disregard petitions, period.
[/rant]
--
______________________________________________

What's up Chuck?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 12:52:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"CB Hamlyn" <cbh@newenglandhomes.net> schrieb:

> > The point is not written text. The main issue is the missing spoken
> > word.
> > Written text can be read without hassle (and with a dictionary beside
> > the keyboard). Following a conversation is much more difficult.
> >
> It appears the European version will have the option of German Subtitles.

Yeah, reading subtitles... ever watched a movie in foreign language with
subtitles on? How much of the time did you acutally watch the movie, and
how long did you read text? Maybe you get the point now.

> Short of paying a bunch of voice actors to read them for the German fans
> out there, I don't really understand the point of this petition.

Well, in case that EVERY SINGLE SPOKEN WORD is displayed as text on the
screen (and it is displayed long enough so that non-english speakers have
time to read it) than it's still an issue, but a smaller one. But I doubt
that _that_ is the case.

Anyway, I knew it's kinda 'unwise' to post that petition here since (I
guess) most of a.g.t-d-p readers only speak english and therefor don't
know what the issue is.

Don't worry, if you don't understand it, simply don't vote. Couldn't be
easier...

--
Eine falsch abgetrennte Sig kann gar nicht falsch abgetrennt sein,
weil, wenn sie falsch abgetrennt ist, ist sie keine Sig mehr, und
kann somit gar nicht falsch abgetrennt sein.
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 1:03:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Greger Hoel" <gregerh@spamblock.com> schrieb:

> >Please 'help' us by signing the petition at:
> >
> >http://www.petitiononline.com/dsfordv/petition.html
>
>
> Excuse me for the upcoming rant,
[silly rant snipped]

Excuse me, but if english is your native language I understand why you
don't (want to?) understand us.

If not, be happy that your second/third/whatsoever language english is, is
good enough to understand the full glory of the spoken and written words
in T3. But don't judge other people on your knowledge.

By the way, we are talking about more than 100 Million (Billion for US)
people where german is their native language. The majority in Europe I
guess.

AND: there WILL be a decrease in sales for Eidos because that. Sure, it's
Eidos problem not ours if we have a problem with english story driven
games. I think that Eidos will at the end lose more money than they saved
with not adding localized versions. But I'm sure, the clever heads in
Eidos' manager offices know that. If not, they will get their lesson.

Anyway, don't shoot the messenger. I'm only the messenger, coz is _NOT MY_
(personal) petition.

--
Eine falsch abgetrennte Sig kann gar nicht falsch abgetrennt sein,
weil, wenn sie falsch abgetrennt ist, ist sie keine Sig mehr, und
kann somit gar nicht falsch abgetrennt sein.
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 2:11:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 08:52:04 +0200, "Martin Seibert" <realsyntech@gmx.at>
wrote:

>Yeah, reading subtitles... ever watched a movie in foreign language with
>subtitles on? How much of the time did you acutally watch the movie, and
>how long did you read text? Maybe you get the point now.

That's the problem with subtitles. They should be right in the middle of
the screen so you don't have to move your eyes down to read them!!! ;) 

--
Michael Cecil
http://home.comcast.net/~macecil/
June 3, 2004 2:46:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

> By the way, we are talking about more than 100 Million (Billion for US)
> people where german is their native language. The majority in Europe I
> guess.
>
For crying out loud stop using that number. Take your 100 Million and
filter out those that:
1) Do not Speak/Understand English at all.
2) Cannot read their native langauage subtitles or have some hang up to
reading subtitles.
3) Are gamers.
4) Are gamers interested in Thief.

What's that leave you? 100 maybe? Tops? If Eidos stood to lose
approximately 3 Billion USD in sales from the 100 Million you seem to be
claiming will buy this game, I think they'd jump at a German voiced
version... But that's just not the case. So if you're gonna start pulling
numbers out of your ass, try an accurate statement like:

"There's at least 50 gamers that won't buy your stupid Thief 3 game cause
they don't understand English and can't read German!"

> AND: there WILL be a decrease in sales for Eidos because that. Sure, it's
> Eidos problem not ours if we have a problem with english story driven
> games. I think that Eidos will at the end lose more money than they saved
> with not adding localized versions. But I'm sure, the clever heads in
> Eidos' manager offices know that. If not, they will get their lesson.
>
There are so many angles to sales, I'm sorry to report that your cause is
not the monumental sales hit you think Eidos is going to get from this.
You're (at this point) just trying to use scary examples to shock people
into believeing you're correct. So far it's not working, at least on me.

> Anyway, don't shoot the messenger. I'm only the messenger, coz is _NOT MY_
> (personal) petition.
>
In that case, here's the broadhead. You know what to do. :) 

In all seriousness, I feel for you, I really do. But you have to look at
the bigger picture and realize this petition is only going to hurt ALL of us
in the end. But you've been told that enough at this point, if you still
don't believe that no one here can help you see.

Happy Gaming
Loony
June 3, 2004 2:52:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

> > It appears the European version will have the option of German
Subtitles.
>
> Yeah, reading subtitles... ever watched a movie in foreign language with
> subtitles on? How much of the time did you acutally watch the movie, and
> how long did you read text? Maybe you get the point now.
>
Amelie is one of my favorite movies of all time. I don't speak a word of
French. So yeah, I've done my share of reading subtitles and if you're
really trying to make this arguement, it's insulting. Not to mention a hell
of a lot more is happening in a movie than in a game when the subtitles come
up. In a game you stop and listen/read. In a movie the action just keeps
going and often times you miss stuff to read, but this just isn't the case
with Thief (which is meant to be a slow moving game) and you know it.

> > Short of paying a bunch of voice actors to read them for the German fans
> > out there, I don't really understand the point of this petition.
>
> Well, in case that EVERY SINGLE SPOKEN WORD is displayed as text on the
> screen (and it is displayed long enough so that non-english speakers have
> time to read it) than it's still an issue, but a smaller one. But I doubt
> that _that_ is the case.
>
You're right, some of the snide guard comments will probably not appear as
subtitles. If that's critical to you, don't buy the game. Stick it to the
man.

> Anyway, I knew it's kinda 'unwise' to post that petition here since (I
> guess) most of a.g.t-d-p readers only speak english and therefor don't
> know what the issue is.
>
I'm glad you did, now you know how the ones that replied to this feel.

> Don't worry, if you don't understand it, simply don't vote. Couldn't be
> easier...
>
If your mixed up logic doesn't persuade anyone, you could always talk down
to them. So thanks for that. This is obviously an error in my
comprehension and not my opinion.

Happy Gaming
Loony
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 3:25:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Martin Seibert" <realsyntech@gmx.at> wrote in message
news:2i804lFk8k9vU1@uni-berlin.de...
>

>
> Yeah, reading subtitles... ever watched a movie in foreign language with
> subtitles on? How much of the time did you acutally watch the movie, and
> how long did you read text? Maybe you get the point now.

We always have subtitles on movies and documentaries, we never dub anything
here where i live. Personally I think that's a good thing, as very often the
voice of a character is very important to his personality. And when reading
the subtitles you don't miss any of the movie, as you do not stare at the
subtitles, reading every syllable, the brain is good enough at reading to
*see* the words and interpret the whole sentence at a very early age...

>
> Anyway, I knew it's kinda 'unwise' to post that petition here since (I
> guess) most of a.g.t-d-p readers only speak english and therefor don't
> know what the issue is.

That's not true at all! There's active particpants from all over Europe in
this forum, people who do not have English as their first language,
including me.

I think the main reason the petition didn't get full support here was
explained very well by CB Hamlyn.... The more petitions the less likely it
is that Eidos will take notice of any of them, and i feel it's important
that the community speaks with one voice, to get the most important issue
through, which I'm sure is the tool set for the Germans as well.



>
> Don't worry, if you don't understand it, simply don't vote. Couldn't be
> easier...
>
> --
> Eine falsch abgetrennte Sig kann gar nicht falsch abgetrennt sein,
> weil, wenn sie falsch abgetrennt ist, ist sie keine Sig mehr, und
> kann somit gar nicht falsch abgetrennt sein.
>
>
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 5:22:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Loony" <loony@nospam.loony.name> schrieb:

> > By the way, we are talking about more than 100 Million (Billion for US)
> > people where german is their native language. The majority in Europe I
> > guess.
> >
> For crying out loud stop using that number. Take your 100 Million and
> filter out those that:
> 1) Do not Speak/Understand English at all.
> 2) Cannot read their native langauage subtitles or have some hang up to
> reading subtitles.
> 3) Are gamers.
> 4) Are gamers interested in Thief.
>
> What's that leave you? 100 maybe? Tops? If Eidos stood to lose
> approximately 3 Billion USD in sales from the 100 Million you seem to be
> claiming will buy this game, I think they'd jump at a German voiced
> version... But that's just not the case. So if you're gonna start
> pulling numbers out of your ass, try an accurate statement like:

You'r capable of reading, but understanding seems to be a bit too
difficult. I am writing about the NUMBER OF PEOPLE SPEAKING GERMAN. Guess
you didn't figure that out. Well, sorry. You can still say my english is
not good enough to make myself understood.

> "There's at least 50 gamers that won't buy your stupid Thief 3 game cause
> they don't understand English and can't read German!"

But _you_ are the master chief of numbers and languages. *sic*

[..]
> In all seriousness, I feel for you, I really do. But you have to look at
> the bigger picture and realize this petition is only going to hurt ALL of
> us in the end. But you've been told that enough at this point, if you
> still don't believe that no one here can help you see.

Don't insult my intelligence by talking to me like I'm a complete idiot.

I see no reason get that personal. That's why this discussion has come to
an end for me.

PS: Stop bitching about other people who are not so good in english if
it's not their native language. Just makes you look like a sorrow bighead.

--
"Etwas lernen? Ich bitte dich, wir sind im Usenet..."
(Thomas Hühn in de.admin.news.misc)
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 5:22:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

> > What's that leave you? 100 maybe? Tops? If Eidos stood to lose
> > approximately 3 Billion USD in sales from the 100 Million you seem to be
> > claiming will buy this game, I think they'd jump at a German voiced
> > version... But that's just not the case. So if you're gonna start
> > pulling numbers out of your ass, try an accurate statement like:
>
> You'r capable of reading, but understanding seems to be a bit too
> difficult. I am writing about the NUMBER OF PEOPLE SPEAKING GERMAN. Guess
> you didn't figure that out. Well, sorry. You can still say my english is
> not good enough to make myself understood.
>
LOL. Me checks the subject of the post. Yup, still says "Petition for a
fully localized german version." Pardon me for assuming a figure you'd use
to demonstrate the interest in a "Petition for a fully localized german
version." would be completely arbitrary. Yes, there are 100 Million German
speaking europeans (according to you, I've not checked that fact out). I
was simply trying to understand why you continue to post that number as
though it were a valid piece of evidence for your arguement.

> > "There's at least 50 gamers that won't buy your stupid Thief 3 game
cause
> > they don't understand English and can't read German!"
>
> But _you_ are the master chief of numbers and languages. *sic*
>
I've been called worse by better. <shrug>

> > In all seriousness, I feel for you, I really do. But you have to look
at
> > the bigger picture and realize this petition is only going to hurt ALL
of
> > us in the end. But you've been told that enough at this point, if you
> > still don't believe that no one here can help you see.
>
> Don't insult my intelligence by talking to me like I'm a complete idiot.
>
This was my way of attempting to bow out with dignity. I honestly meant no
offence. I simply meant that you've made your case, a few others have made
theirs and at this point you're defending it past the point it needs to be
defended. I speak from experience on this, as I'm the king (or master chief
if you will) of over defending a post. There's just nothing more to
discuss, unless you want to continue to wave your fist at me.

> I see no reason get that personal. That's why this discussion has come to
> an end for me.
>
See, now this kills me. You accuse me of getting personal when you, in this
very same post said:
"You'r capable of reading, but understanding seems to be a bit too
difficult."
"Guess you didn't figure that out."
and
"But _you_ are the master chief of numbers and languages. *sic*"

So get off your high horse. You're the only one insulting intelligence
here. I happen to think you're a smart person, and have already apologized
for making you feel that I've insulted you in anyway... and I meant it.

> PS: Stop bitching about other people who are not so good in english if
> it's not their native language. Just makes you look like a sorrow bighead.
>
I can't seem to find anywhere where I "bitched" about other people who don't
speak English as their native language. I do take offense to anyone who
expects special treatment because they're different. So I don't give a
flying turd if you speak German as your native language, but if you feel you
have the right to demand that a company take their product and modify it
because it's not in German then I'll bitch about it, cause you don't have
that right.

So yeah, I'd much rather play T3 than continue this pointless argument. But
thanks for the sparring practice :) 

Hope to chat with you again soon about happier topics :) 
Loony (at work)
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 6:44:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:03:04 +0200, "Martin Seibert" <realsyntech@gmx.at>
wrote:

>By the way, we are talking about more than 100 Million (Billion for US)
>people where german is their native language. The majority in Europe I
>guess.

82 million Germans + 8 million Austrians. (I'm not sure why you the US
uses billion to mean million.) 90 million people. I really don't think
that comprises the majority of Europe.

Hey, I'm all for localization (as long as it doesn't delay the initial
release) but if you're going to debate a point at least don't start off by
using silly hyperbole.

Anyhow I rather doubt every single German speaker has a computer and would
buy Thief 3. Anyone know what the sales were for T2 over there?

--
Michael Cecil
http://home.comcast.net/~macecil/
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 7:45:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

>snip a lot<

Some people are uncapable of expressing their opinion without being rude,
pay no attention and please don't think that's representative for the
"English" community :-)

If, however, the German community also stand behind the petition for having
the editor tools released, you will have the opportunity to make all German
FM's, so this might to be a possible good compromise?
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 7:45:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

> Some people are uncapable of expressing their opinion without being rude,
> pay no attention and please don't think that's representative for the
> "English" community :-)
>
Pot calling the kettle black? There's a difference between being firm and
being rude. I take a firm hand against people using illogic to mislead
people. Nothing I said in the prior post was intended to be rude. I
already apologized for his taking my comments as rude.

Why do you insist on getting involved in my posts in a negative way? How do
you feel you have the right to discredit any statement I've made?

> If, however, the German community also stand behind the petition for
having
> the editor tools released, you will have the opportunity to make all
German
> FM's, so this might to be a possible good compromise?
>
This was my point from the beginning, more or less. Thank you for stating
it in a clearer and less likely to be misinterpreted way. :)  I do
appreciate this type of involvement.

Happy Thieving
Loony
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 8:10:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"McEve" <mceve@azcappy.com> schrieb:

> >snip a lot<
>
> Some people are uncapable of expressing their opinion without being rude,
> pay no attention and please don't think that's representative for the
> "English" community :-)

hmm... ok

At the end, it happend what I thought will happen. I'd better not come
here to ask for support for the german community (which is for sure
more than 50 gamers), where the majority is not affected by the petition.

Anyway, if it's true that the translation is as poor as a babelfish
translation, I can still stick to english text and my dictionary. :-|

> If, however, the German community also stand behind the petition for
> having the editor tools released, you will have the opportunity to make
> all German FM's, so this might to be a possible good compromise?

I fully support the petiton for an SDK/Editor/whatever because I want to
see as much FMs for T3 as I hopefully will get my hands on soon for T1/T2.

And yes, I also signed it because it makes full sense to me, even if I
won't make any FMs.

--
"Bitte stecken Sie ihren Spassstock in den Spassstockhafen."
[aus einer Beschreibung eines alten Joysticks]
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 8:10:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

> At the end, it happend what I thought will happen. I'd better not come
> here to ask for support for the german community (which is for sure
> more than 50 gamers), where the majority is not affected by the petition.
>
I never meant to dissuade you from posting here. I've for one enjoyed your
other posts. You posted this topic and I voiced my non-supporting opinion.
It was overly wrong of me to attack you on what you said but I wanted people
to understand that the logic you were using was misleading. You took it as
a personal attack and we had a little sparring match. I apologize again for
the confusion. I hope you continue to post here often as I enjoy talking
with you.

> Anyway, if it's true that the translation is as poor as a babelfish
> translation, I can still stick to english text and my dictionary. :-|
>
God I hope that's not true :(  If that's the case I don't blame you one bit
for pushing for your petition, but I still won't be able to support it. You
understand I hope.

> I fully support the petiton for an SDK/Editor/whatever because I want to
> see as much FMs for T3 as I hopefully will get my hands on soon for T1/T2.
>
> And yes, I also signed it because it makes full sense to me, even if I
> won't make any FMs.
>
Excellent. Glad to hear it.

Happy Thieving
Loony
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 8:27:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

--
"Bitte stecken Sie ihren Spassstock in den Spassstockhafen."
[aus einer Beschreibung eines alten Joysticks]

"Greger Hoel" <gregerh@spamblock.com> schrieb:
[..]
> you expect me to not comment on it?! Bloody idiot.

*plonk*
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 8:36:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:32:37 -0400, "CB Hamlyn"
<cbh@newenglandhomes.net> wrote:

>> Some people are uncapable of expressing their opinion without being rude,
>> pay no attention and please don't think that's representative for the
>> "English" community :-)
>>
>Pot calling the kettle black? There's a difference between being firm and
>being rude. I take a firm hand against people using illogic to mislead
>people. Nothing I said in the prior post was intended to be rude. I
>already apologized for his taking my comments as rude.
>
>Why do you insist on getting involved in my posts in a negative way? How do
>you feel you have the right to discredit any statement I've made?

Well, at least it's more straigthforward than the last time, when she
started her on/off topic trolling cuz we didn't welcome poor Max back
with open arms in another thread...

--
______________________________________________

What's up Chuck?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 8:36:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

> >> Some people are uncapable of expressing their opinion without being
rude,
> >> pay no attention and please don't think that's representative for the
> >> "English" community :-)
> >>
> >Pot calling the kettle black? There's a difference between being firm
and
> >being rude. I take a firm hand against people using illogic to mislead
> >people. Nothing I said in the prior post was intended to be rude. I
> >already apologized for his taking my comments as rude.
> >
> >Why do you insist on getting involved in my posts in a negative way? How
do
> >you feel you have the right to discredit any statement I've made?
>
> Well, at least it's more straigthforward than the last time, when she
> started her on/off topic trolling cuz we didn't welcome poor Max back
> with open arms in another thread...
>
LOL. Yes, well, let's not start another one of those threads!
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 9:06:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Michael Cecil" <macecil@comcast.net> schrieb:

> >By the way, we are talking about more than 100 Million (Billion for US)
> >people where german is their native language. The majority in Europe I
> >guess.
>
> 82 million Germans + 8 million Austrians. (I'm not sure why you the US
> uses billion to mean million.) 90 million people. I really don't think
> that comprises the majority of Europe.

Don't forget about the german part of Switzerland.

> Hey, I'm all for localization (as long as it doesn't delay the initial
> release) but if you're going to debate a point at least don't start off
> by using silly hyperbole.
>
> Anyhow I rather doubt every single German speaker has a computer and
> would buy Thief 3. Anyone know what the sales were for T2 over there?

I think it makes a difference if a language is spoken by 1 Mio.
Poeple or by 100 Mio. in terms of localizations - because the number of
POTENTIAL customers is quite higher to be a POINT for Eidos in case of
sales.

I never said 100 Mio. people will by a translated version of T3. I just
wanted to express my opionen about: more potential customers == more sales

Seems most of you think I'm plain wrong, based on the response I get.

We will see how many people really don't buy it end of next week (that
is the release date in europe - see, it is NOT realeased here yet) because
they prefer translated voice.

My copy is on the way. I'll see what I've paid for and what I've got, then.
At least I've paid much less than I would have to, if I would buy it here.
Anonymous
June 4, 2004 2:02:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Martin Seibert" <realsyntech@gmx.at> writes:

> Yeah, reading subtitles... ever watched a movie in foreign language with
> subtitles on? How much of the time did you acutally watch the movie, and
> how long did you read text? Maybe you get the point now.

This is kind of apropos, because in Germany most American movies and
television get dubbed. In some other countries they're subtitled
instead. People can get used to subtitles, especially if they've
grown up with them. But I can see that telling a very large market
that they're not important enough to have dubbing is somewhat
insulting. At the very least they could have done what Gothic did
with their English version and provided bad voice acting at a
discount.

Maybe all the voices should have been in Inuit or Klingon or some
other rare language, to emphasize that fact that the story isn't
taking place in the real world. Thus everyone has to put up with
subtitles and no one gets special treatment.

--
Darin Johnson
I'm not a well adjusted person, but I play one on the net.
Anonymous
June 4, 2004 2:07:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Loony" <loony@nospam.loony.name> writes:

> In all seriousness, I feel for you, I really do. But you have to look at
> the bigger picture and realize this petition is only going to hurt ALL of us
> in the end.

It won't hurt anyone. No online petition anywhere has ever had an
affect on anything. They're just ways of blowing off steam. And
if they do have an affect because of some freak alignment of the
planets, I don't see why there can be only one that succeeds.

--
Darin Johnson
"Particle Man, Particle Man, doing the things a particle can"
Anonymous
June 4, 2004 2:20:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

Greger Hoel <gregerh@spamblock.com> writes:

> I'm
> judging a bunch of jackasses who think they're *entitled* to playing
> their games dubbed in their native tongue.

You mean like Americans? If there were no English voice acting,
I'd bet most here would be clamoring for their entitled localization.

It's just a petition that no one will ever read, get over it. Any
decision about what to do has already been made, and an insignificant
online community won't sway executive opinion. No need to panic over
a few votes.

--
Darin Johnson
I'm not a well adjusted person, but I play one on the net.
Anonymous
June 4, 2004 6:10:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 22:20:40 GMT, Darin Johnson <darin_@_usa_._net>
wrote:

>Greger Hoel <gregerh@spamblock.com> writes:
>
>> I'm
>> judging a bunch of jackasses who think they're *entitled* to playing
>> their games dubbed in their native tongue.
>
>You mean like Americans? If there were no English voice acting,
>I'd bet most here would be clamoring for their entitled localization.

Speaking for myself, as long as I get subtitles, I always prefer the
original language.

>It's just a petition that no one will ever read, get over it. Any
>decision about what to do has already been made, and an insignificant
>online community won't sway executive opinion. No need to panic over
>a few votes.

That's my point. It can't sway executive opinion fro them to start
work on a german version. It can, however, sway executive opinion on
petition sin general.
--
______________________________________________

What's up Chuck?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
June 4, 2004 6:10:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 02:10:06 +0200, Greger Hoel <gregerh@spamblock.com>
wrote:
>petition sin

Hehe.

--
Michael Cecil
http://home.comcast.net/~macecil/
Anonymous
June 4, 2004 6:39:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 00:15:23 GMT, Michael Cecil <macecil@comcast.net>
wrote:

>On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 02:10:06 +0200, Greger Hoel <gregerh@spamblock.com>
>wrote:
>>petition sin

Maybe I should call a psychoanalyst about that slip? :p 

--
______________________________________________

What's up Chuck?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
!