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Does Nvidia Physx matters?

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February 14, 2010 5:06:02 PM

For real,does it matter? all the physx on-off videos in youtube showcasing Physx seems to be endorsed by Nvidia, so doesn't really have any credibility(imo at least). I am new PC enthusiast, the only highend card i ever bought was a GTX280 so I wouldn't know what a high-end ATI could do. I am thinking of going ATI for my new rig(5970 perhaps?), but because fear of of loosing Physx, I am hesitating. Any constructive opinion on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

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a b U Graphics card
February 14, 2010 5:11:30 PM

No you are not losing anything that matters.. Next question?
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a b U Graphics card
February 14, 2010 5:34:34 PM

You are not loosing anything that great, Physx has been described as "if you don’t have it you wont miss it". Getting a newer 5000 series from ATI will give you a far better price/performance ratio than those other high end Nvidia cards. If you really want to, you can buy a low end Nvidia card to run Physx off of and use an older driver as the newer ones disable Physx when an ATI card is detected.
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a c 240 U Graphics card
a c 87 Î Nvidia
February 14, 2010 5:57:35 PM

santi28 said:
For real,does it matter? all the physx on-off videos in youtube showcasing Physx seems to be endorsed by Nvidia, so doesn't really have any credibility(imo at least). I am new PC enthusiast, the only highend card i ever bought was a GTX280 so I wouldn't know what a high-end ATI could do. I am thinking of going ATI for my new rig(5970 perhaps?), but because fear of of loosing Physx, I am hesitating. Any constructive opinion on this would be greatly appreciated.


Well a question like that on an open forum is like asking if the Yankees are the greatest team in baseball ... you'll tend to get different answers from different fans many of which won't fall into the realm of "constructive opinion" you asked for.

Simply stated, there's no reason to lose anything..... thousands of ATI users are enjoying PhysX and finding it well worth their investment. I don't consider myself a real gamer but will play about 2 or 3 games per year. With three teenage sons, I do see a lot of games. I can say that I was a lot more impressed with PhysX in Batman than anything yet that I have seen w/ DX11. THG writes:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/batman-arkham-asylu...

Turning on PhysX isn't necessary for gameplay, and you'll never miss it if you don't see the effects. However, when PhysX is enabled, it adds superlative nuances and really creates some “wow” moments. The chunky explosions, cloth effects, paper, fog, and environmental detail enhancements are very cool.....the eye candy is a lot of fun to watch. Once you've turned it on, it's not something you'll turn off if your hardware can handle it.

But don't let THG's, mine or anyone's opinions sway your decision....decide for yaself by popping over to the link below and watching the video:

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/batman_arkham_asylu...

Now if ya still reading at this point, ya have two choices .....

1. Wait a month and see what nVidia drops .... worse case you'll probably pay a bit less for ya 5970 with DX11 competition on the scene. If ya get a fermi thing, no PhysX worries.

2. If ya stick with the 5970, read this link which in turn points you to the driver hack site which lets you install ATI and nVidia drivers side by side as long as you have Windows 7:

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-ATI-physx-patch...
http://www.ngohq.com/graphic-cards/16223-nvidia-disable...

I gotta assume that with your eye on a $650 5970, the $65 investment in a dedicated PhysX card will not be an issue.

As you will see in the 1,100 post thread referenced in the above article, it works with the latest drivers
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
February 14, 2010 6:02:33 PM

strangestranger said:
losing

Didn't work mate.
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a b U Graphics card
February 14, 2010 6:28:17 PM

If I were a paranoid fellow I would think the whole internet did it just to taunt me.
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
February 14, 2010 6:48:02 PM

strangestranger said:
If I were a paranoid fellow I would think the whole internet did it just to taunt me.

Now you are loosing your grip. [:mousemonkey]
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a b U Graphics card
February 14, 2010 6:49:28 PM

I agree, people shouldnt play so loosely with the english language, and makes the paranoid lose their minds
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a b U Graphics card
February 14, 2010 7:06:22 PM

*sharpens knives*
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
February 14, 2010 7:16:50 PM

*Dons kevlar vest*
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a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
February 14, 2010 7:19:25 PM


If a Stranger sees you, don't look in his eyes.
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February 14, 2010 7:19:39 PM

Physics is something.
Physx (with invisible quotation marks) could be something in the future if it wasn't choked from being open. It's a good experiment and was when it was owned by Ageia.
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February 14, 2010 8:25:15 PM

I think 3D Vision is good, i have seen it and i love it,
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February 14, 2010 8:28:23 PM

Mousemonkey said:
*Dons kevlar vest*



Kevlar will not stop a serious knife wound.


I've had Physx, it was nice, but I wouldn't pay extra for it. Especially in today's graphics market.
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a b U Graphics card
February 14, 2010 8:40:43 PM

PhysX? I keep it off in the 4-5 titles that actually use it. By use it I mean the GPU accelerated part, not the PhysX engine part that runs on the CPU. To be honest, it is only decent in Batman AA, but it isn't worth the performance hit if you don't have a discreet GPU. It also isn't worth buying a discreet GPU either, but if you have one laying around then I guess you could, but don't expect much.

Don't use your GTX 280 as a discreet card, it will be wasted. The maximum you could need is a 8800 GTS 512mb/9800GTX/GTS250, and the GTX 280 can still sell well used for those looking to SLI.

As for DX11 vs. PhysX, Jack tends to leave out something important. PhysX has been out for 3-4 years, DX11 has been out for 4-5 months. It takes ~2 years to build a game. And after all that time, PhysX is only really effective in a single game, as per Jack's link, Batman AA. Also, DX11 is a complete graphics API, including physics and everything else.
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February 15, 2010 12:01:17 AM

JackNaylorPE said:
Well a question like that on an open forum is like asking if the Yankees are the greatest team in baseball ... you'll tend to get different answers from different fans many of which won't fall into the realm of "constructive opinion" you asked for.

Simply stated, there's no reason to lose anything..... thousands of ATI users are enjoying PhysX and finding it well worth their investment. I don't consider myself a real gamer but will play about 2 or 3 games per year. With three teenage sons, I do see a lot of games. I can say that I was a lot more impressed with PhysX in Batman than anything yet that I have seen w/ DX11. THG writes:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/batman-arkham-asylu...

Turning on PhysX isn't necessary for gameplay, and you'll never miss it if you don't see the effects. However, when PhysX is enabled, it adds superlative nuances and really creates some “wow” moments. The chunky explosions, cloth effects, paper, fog, and environmental detail enhancements are very cool.....the eye candy is a lot of fun to watch. Once you've turned it on, it's not something you'll turn off if your hardware can handle it.

But don't let THG's, mine or anyone's opinions sway your decision....decide for yaself by popping over to the link below and watching the video:

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/batman_arkham_asylu...

Now if ya still reading at this point, ya have two choices .....

1. Wait a month and see what nVidia drops .... worse case you'll probably pay a bit less for ya 5970 with DX11 competition on the scene. If ya get a fermi thing, no PhysX worries.

2. If ya stick with the 5970, read this link which in turn points you to the driver hack site which lets you install ATI and nVidia drivers side by side as long as you have Windows 7:

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-ATI-physx-patch...
http://www.ngohq.com/graphic-cards/16223-nvidia-disable...

I gotta assume that with your eye on a $650 5970, the $65 investment in a dedicated PhysX card will not be an issue.

As you will see in the 1,100 post thread referenced in the above article, it works with the latest drivers


thanks for the great explanation, I'll have to look into the dedicated Physx card thing, seems very interesting.
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February 15, 2010 12:01:43 AM

Best answer selected by santi28.
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February 15, 2010 12:27:28 AM

Thank for all the great feedbacks guys :) 
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February 15, 2010 12:41:40 AM

AMW1011 said:
PhysX? I keep it off in the 4-5 titles that actually use it. By use it I mean the GPU accelerated part, not the PhysX engine part that runs on the CPU. To be honest, it is only decent in Batman AA, but it isn't worth the performance hit if you don't have a discreet GPU. It also isn't worth buying a discreet GPU either, but if you have one laying around then I guess you could, but don't expect much.

Don't use your GTX 280 as a discreet card, it will be wasted. The maximum you could need is a 8800 GTS 512mb/9800GTX/GTS250, and the GTX 280 can still sell well used for those looking to SLI.

As for DX11 vs. PhysX, Jack tends to leave out something important. PhysX has been out for 3-4 years, DX11 has been out for 4-5 months. It takes ~2 years to build a game. And after all that time, PhysX is only really effective in a single game, as per Jack's link, Batman AA. Also, DX11 is a complete graphics API, including physics and everything else.


Thanks for the info.

now that u mentioned it, I am kinda interested in the discreet physx GPU thing. 8800gts seems a bit dated, maybe a 220 or 240? already pushing the limit on my PSU, so don't really want to add anything power consuming.

maybe my build would be ATI 5970 + Geforce 240(or 220) or GTX 480(fermi), gotta go do some more research:) 
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a c 240 U Graphics card
a c 87 Î Nvidia
February 15, 2010 1:04:27 AM

From the same THG article linked above:

The good news here is that a GeForce GT 220 can be had for as little as $65 online, and as a dedicated PhysX card, it will guarantee that the High PhysX setting won't bottleneck performance. Even at 1920x1200, the GT 220 produced a minimum frame rate of 36 FPS as a dedicated PhysX card. Using more expensive solutions as dedicated PhysX processors didn't produce appreciably higher frame rates, so the GeForce GT 220 is a real PhysX champion for the price.
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a c 240 U Graphics card
a c 87 Î Nvidia
February 15, 2010 1:13:01 AM

AMW1011 said:
As for DX11 vs. PhysX, Jack tends to leave out something important. PhysX has been out for 3-4 years, DX11 has been out for 4-5 months. It takes ~2 years to build a game. And after all that time, PhysX is only really effective in a single game, as per Jack's link, Batman AA. Also, DX11 is a complete graphics API, including physics and everything else.


I was only addressing current needs, not XMas 2011. As I have said in many other posts, DX11 won't start to really show us what it can do till at least summer 2011...and my guess is, given what we've seen so far in THG's Dirt 2 article where DX11 was incorporated to only a minor extent, the most demanding games of XMas 2011 I think will humble any GFX card on the market today.

I don't see a $50 GT 220 as putting a budget crunch on someone buying a 5970.....especially when that is selling for $50 - $100 over its MSRP.

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a b U Graphics card
February 15, 2010 1:23:59 AM

Wow, good job Jack, you convinced him to buy a dedicated GPU so he can enable dead tech.

Something I did not mention is that PhysX is dead. DX11 will be the future of GPU accelerated physics because it supports compute shaders that allow any DX11 GPU to do many of the same things that are left to the CPU, not just physics. What makes it the future is that it will work on ATI and nVidia cards, not just nVidia cards. As I said, you will only see even a slight benefit in one game, nothing more. If you want to spend $60+ to get some flying paper and fuller explosions in one game then by all means. Just know what you are doing.

Jack, we are definitely talking about the future. He isn't going to spend money for a single good game, he is expecting to see these differences in the future, but he will not. You failed to mention that.
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February 15, 2010 2:38:46 AM

AMW1011 said:
Wow, good job Jack, you convinced him to buy a dedicated GPU so he can enable dead tech.

Something I did not mention is that PhysX is dead. DX11 will be the future of GPU accelerated physics because it supports compute shaders that allow any DX11 GPU to do many of the same things that are left to the CPU, not just physics. What makes it the future is that it will work on ATI and nVidia cards, not just nVidia cards. As I said, you will only see even a slight benefit in one game, nothing more. If you want to spend $60+ to get some flying paper and fuller explosions in one game then by all means. Just know what you are doing.

Jack, we are definitely talking about the future. He isn't going to spend money for a single good game, he is expecting to see these differences in the future, but he will not. You failed to mention that.


Soo ah... do you have any articles/further reading I can read that supports what you have said? not to picky or anything, I just want to be well informed.

thanks
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a b U Graphics card
February 15, 2010 2:55:54 AM

santi28 said:
Soo ah... do you have any articles/further reading I can read that supports what you have said? not to picky or anything, I just want to be well informed.

thanks

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2329316,00.a...
http://www.elitebastards.com/?option=com_content&task=v...
http://s08.idav.ucdavis.edu/boyd-dx11-compute-shader.pd...
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/200909290959...
http://tech.icrontic.com/news/amd-comments-on-nvidia-dr...
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2008/12/11/amd-ex...
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/amd_physx_and_oth...
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/200910011713...

A lot of those are re-posts, but they should give you general knowledge.

Really it comes down to common sense, the proprietary API that only works one half the market will fail while the open API that does the same and more, as well as being natively supported in DX11 games, that doesn't discriminate between ATI or nVidia will win.

Here is a list of all the games that support GPU PhysX acceleration current and in development, note that some of thsoe have been released already.:
http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_physxgames_home.html

The only game that really benefits from PhysX in any meaningful way is Batman AA, check Jack's link. Please look up all those future games and name one that is interesting in the least.

That is about the best I can do, just use some common sense. If you are still set on PhysX then get the cheapest GT 240 you can possibly find.
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a c 240 U Graphics card
a c 87 Î Nvidia
February 21, 2010 6:15:30 PM

AMW1011 said:
Something I did not mention is that PhysX is dead. DX11 will be the future of GPU accelerated physics because it supports compute shaders that allow any DX11 GPU to do many of the same things that are left to the CPU, not just physics. What makes it the future is that it will work on ATI and nVidia cards, not just nVidia cards. As I said, you will only see even a slight benefit in one game, nothing more. If you want to spend $60+ to get some flying paper and fuller explosions in one game then by all means. Just know what you are doing.


Well , quoting THG, it sure seems like they were a lot more impressed with PhysX in Batman than they were with DX11 in Dirt 2 .... I recall reading, "once you turn PhysX on, you won't turn it off" and "DX11 has marginal impact on gameplay while taking a colossal hit on performance".

So whaddya think is going to happen to all those bug bucks executives at Asus and EVGA who have just released PhysX only hardware....PhysX only GFX cards, PhysX specific MoBos .....I'm gonna guess that these industry insiders who get paid lotsa money to know what they are doing will be on the unemployment line in 6 months. I guess they shoulda consulted with you first before they made this major decisions which will have a major impact on their company's bottom line .

I am less concerned with promoting one company over another than I am in in helping people enjoy themselves. If you think $65 investment is a huge waste, I'm sorry....to me and all the 1,000 + posters over at:

http://www.ngohq.com/graphic-cards/16223-nvidia-disable...

All these ATI owners apparently found the $65 well worth it....tho it seems most when in bigger and bought better cards.
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a b U Graphics card
February 21, 2010 6:25:37 PM

Jack sorry, but I just can't take you seriously. I HAVE PhysX, I am not impressed, even in Batman AA. Also when you include the fact that an actual industry standard is here, why the hell do you think PhysX has a future? There are no benefits to PhysX now in any DX11 title. Sure I suppose they could throw in PhysX for those who don't have a DX11 card, but the OP as well as most people on these forums will have one. Not to mention it will not be long before the majority of PC gamers have DX11 cards. And lets not even speak of the extra costs in for developers.

Give me one reason, any reason, that PhysX has a future, or that it has advantages over an industry standard even though it is proprietary. Give me one reason, that's all I ask.

You can quote old sources all you want and you can point to a handful, or less, of products and act like they aren't just there to cash in on the hype NOW. It doesn't matter, nor do I care, common sense and market trends will win out.

If you love vaporware and dead tech. then I'm happy for you. If you think flying papers, or ANYTHING, in a single game is worth $65, I'm happy for you. Just don't try to justify it by telling me that I am wrong. I'm sorry if I would never make a $65 investment for some cheap effects in a single game, hell I wouldn't pay that for a huge graphical difference in a single game, especially with little replay value and no multiplayer.
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a b U Graphics card
February 21, 2010 7:42:37 PM

JackNaylorPE said:
Well , quoting THG, it sure seems like they were a lot more impressed with PhysX in Batman than they were with DX11 in Dirt 2 .... I recall reading, "once you turn PhysX on, you won't turn it off" and "DX11 has marginal impact on gameplay while taking a colossal hit on performance".

So whaddya think is going to happen to all those bug bucks executives at Asus and EVGA who have just released PhysX only hardware....PhysX only GFX cards, PhysX specific MoBos .....I'm gonna guess that these industry insiders who get paid lotsa money to know what they are doing will be on the unemployment line in 6 months. I guess they shoulda consulted with you first before they made this major decisions which will have a major impact on their company's bottom line .

I am less concerned with promoting one company over another than I am in in helping people enjoy themselves. If you think $65 investment is a huge waste, I'm sorry....to me and all the 1,000 + posters over at:

http://www.ngohq.com/graphic-cards/16223-nvidia-disable...

All these ATI owners apparently found the $65 well worth it....tho it seems most when in bigger and bought better cards.


You realize when they turn PhysX on they use a dedicated card for it, if you turned DX11 on and added another card in CF you're not going to lose performance.

DX11 is like DX9.0c & DX10.1, it has the ability to increase performance, better lighting & texture compression can greatly increase performance.
DiRT 2 tacked on DX11 support in the last 2 months of development, why are you only using that game Jack? Afraid AvP/STALKER: CoP will debunk your view?
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
February 21, 2010 8:41:02 PM

Do AvP and Stalker have DX11 physic's then?
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a c 240 U Graphics card
a c 87 Î Nvidia
February 21, 2010 9:05:54 PM

sabot00 said:
You realize when they turn PhysX on they use a dedicated card for it, if you turned DX11 on and added another card in CF you're not going to lose performance.


Apparently THG didn't as they used both single cards and dedicated in the review.

Quote:
DX11 is like DX9.0c & DX10.1, it has the ability to increase performance, better lighting & texture compression can greatly increase performance.


o you saying DX10 had the ability to do something but just never did it ?

Quote:
DiRT 2 tacked on DX11 support in the last 2 months of development, why are you only using that game Jack?


Is there a THG STALKER AvP review that I missed ?
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
February 21, 2010 9:07:20 PM

strangestranger said:
???

Well the threads about PhysX and I want to know how those two games are going to debunk anyone's view.
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a b U Graphics card
February 21, 2010 9:09:30 PM

Jack's view is that DX11 is very demanding, even more than PhysX, turning DX11 on in either AvP or STALKER doesn't cost much performance.
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
February 21, 2010 9:14:53 PM

sabot00 said:
Jack's view is that DX11 is very demanding, even more than PhysX, turning DX11 on in either AvP or STALKER doesn't cost much performance.

Oh OK, so how demanding would a DX11 game be if it also used Nvidia's PhysX?
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a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
February 21, 2010 9:30:10 PM

There haven't been enough looks at AvP dx11 usage, looks, performance benefit or hit. I've read some are having trouble with dx11.exe, but with PC games , don't know if its the end user in those cases. People panic.
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a b U Graphics card
February 21, 2010 9:31:32 PM

Mousemonkey said:
Oh OK, so how demanding would a DX11 game be if it also used Nvidia's PhysX?


me metro2033 would appear to answer that I believe.
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a b U Graphics card
February 21, 2010 9:36:26 PM

A game using DX11 & PhysX at the same time would actually not be able to test either API's performance.

GTX 260 in Batman AA:


Without PhysX (Control):


105-42=63. 63/105 = 0.6 = 60% drop in performance.
In other words, the performance (FPS) is 40% of what it was without PhysX.

HD 5870 in STALKER: Call of Pripyat

DX11:


DX10.1:


DX10:


DX9:


Link:
http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,700136/Stalker-Call-...

Average changes:

DX11 / DX9:
Day - 44/108 = .41 = 41% DX11 performs worse, 59% drop
Night - 38/119 = .32 = 32% DX11 performs worse, 68% drop
Rain - 41/128 = .32 = 32% DX11 performs worse, 68% drop
SunShafts - 29/54 = .54 = 54% DX11 performs worse, 46% drop

DX11/DX10:
Day - 44/38 = 1.16 = 116% DX11 performs better, 16% gain
Night - 38/33 = 1.15 = 115% DX11 performs better, 15% gain
Rain - 41/35 = 1.17 = 117% DX11 performs better, 17% gain
SunShafts - 29/27 = 1.07 = 107% DX11 performs better, 7% gain

DX11/DX10.1:
Day - 44/37 = 1.19 = 119% DX11 performs better, 19% gain
Night - 38/33 = 1.15 = 115% DX11 performs better, 15% gain
Rain - 41/34 = 1.21 = 121% DX11 performs better, 21% gain
SunShafts - 29/26 = 1.12 = 112% DX11 performs better, 12% gain

Quote:
The differences between DirectX 9 and DirectX 10/11 as well as DirectX 10 and DirectX 11 are quite obvious.


DX11 only performs worse than DX9 (around 60.25% worse), while being better than DX10 (13.75%), and DX10.1 (16.75%)
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
February 21, 2010 9:54:07 PM

strangestranger said:
me metro2033 would appear to answer that I believe.

March 16th IIRC, it could be good but then again I've read that it's heavily scripted so how that's going to translate in the game play we'll have to wait and see and I haven't seen anything that states it's going to incorporate PhysX.

sabot00 said:
A game using DX11 & PhysX at the same time would actually not be able to test either API's performance.


What!!, how so? As we don't have such a game yet how are benchies from games that are not both DX11 and using PhysX going to prove anything?
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a b U Graphics card
February 21, 2010 10:10:07 PM

If you bench the game while running both PhysX & DX11 then you can't blame performance on either API as there are 2 variables.
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
February 21, 2010 10:14:36 PM

sabot00 said:
If you bench the game while running both PhysX & DX11 then you can't blame performance on either API as there are 2 variables.

So what game has both a DX11 path and Nvidia's PhysX?
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a b U Graphics card
February 21, 2010 10:15:56 PM

None yet that I know of.
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a b U Graphics card
February 21, 2010 10:18:38 PM

How bout using the gaames we do have using the same HW? Then compare "costs"?
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a c 273 U Graphics card
a c 172 Î Nvidia
February 21, 2010 10:21:03 PM

sabot00 said:
None yet that I know of.

My point exactly, you can't say how it's going to be based on the benchies you posted earlier and yet you say that neither API would be tested.
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a b U Graphics card
February 21, 2010 11:32:55 PM

My point is that DX11 improvements in STALKER & PhysX in Batman AA are similarly noticeable, while PhysX tanks a huge performance hit DX11 does not.
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a c 217 U Graphics card
a c 83 Î Nvidia
February 22, 2010 6:30:21 AM

Both DX11 and PhysX improve performance, BUT both either is used to improve eyecandy they can also hurt performance. It's all a matter of how the developer uses it.
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a c 240 U Graphics card
a c 87 Î Nvidia
March 5, 2010 4:23:58 AM

sabot00 said:
My point is that DX11 improvements in STALKER & PhysX in Batman AA are similarly noticeable, while PhysX tanks a huge performance hit DX11 does not.


In the Dirt2 review, THG describes the performance hit as "colossal" .... and I'm afraid, with all of DX11's power, the games of XMas 2011 will humble any card made in 2010....which make sme nervous about $700 GFX card investments :) 

Is there a side by side video for STALKER that I can look at that shows the same scenes side by side like there is for Batman on the firingsquad site. I been anxious to see just what a developer can do w/DX11 .... I didn't expect that to be before this time next year.
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