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Hard drive based cameras ever?

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November 28, 2004 2:35:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives
to ever be created?
I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a
40GB hard drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a
camcorder.
Why are people opposed to it?
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 3:07:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"TS" <maxview80@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2592918.0411272335.4a3a9ee9@posting.google.com...
> Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives
> to ever be created?
> I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
> Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a
> 40GB hard drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a
> camcorder.
> Why are people opposed to it?

Mircrodrives have been available for years.
I've been shooting with 1GB hard drives since 2001.
4GB drives have been available for some time.
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 3:53:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"TS" <maxview80@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2592918.0411272335.4a3a9ee9@posting.google.com...
> Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives
> to ever be created?
> I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
> Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a
> 40GB hard drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a
> camcorder.
> Why are people opposed to it?

Because hardrives are usually rated in "ms"... where non-volitle RAM is
rated in "ns". So, you really want to slow down the write times?

Seymore...
remove "REMOVE" to reply directly
Related resources
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 12:17:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

TS wrote:

> Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives
> to ever be created?
> I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
> Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a
> 40GB hard drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a
> camcorder.
> Why are people opposed to it?

Sony makes a camera with a built in CD burner. All you have to
do to view your photos is pop out the CD and place it in your
computer's CDROM.

http://www.steves-digicams.com/cd1000.html

Somehow this configuration isn't popular. Small removable media
seems to be most preferred.

They've already made hard drives small enough to fit in the place of a
type II CF card.. They may have 40+ gigs capacity some day.

Of course, they may have solid state 40 gig cards in the future too.

Who knows :-)
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 2:38:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"TS" <maxview80@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2592918.0411272335.4a3a9ee9@posting.google.com...
> Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives
> to ever be created?
> I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
> Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a
> 40GB hard drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a
> camcorder.
> Why are people opposed to it?

Don't think they are- several new digital backs for medium format SLRs have
built in drives in addition to CF slots. IIRC, the new Mamiya and Hasselblad
DSLRs will have them too.

--
Martin Francis http://www.sixbysix.co.uk
"Go not to Usenet for counsel, for it will say both no, and yes, and
no, and yes...."
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 4:38:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

You can already buy microdrives that fit where a CF card does.


On 27 Nov 2004 23:35:31 -0800, maxview80@hotmail.com (TS) wrote:

>Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives
>to ever be created?
>I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
>Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a
>40GB hard drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a
>camcorder.
>Why are people opposed to it?
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 5:13:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:35:31 -0800, TS wrote:

> Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives to
> ever be created?

Yes:-

http://www.jvc.com/presentations/everio/

> I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio Carbon
> or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a 40GB hard
> drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a camcorder. Why
> are people opposed to it?

They're just slow getting there.

Mike.
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 5:13:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:13:39 +0000, Mike Brodbelt
<mike@_nospam_coruscant.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:35:31 -0800, TS wrote:
>
>> Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives to
>> ever be created?
>
>Yes:-
>
>http://www.jvc.com/presentations/everio/

That camera uses what the site calls "4GB Microdrive® Removable
Media".
There's a drawing that seems to indicate that the Microdrive they use
is larger than a similar CFG card using a Microdrive, but there's
nothing to indicate that they are not using a standard CF/Microdrive
card, and nothing to indicate that the drawing is to scale.
The site indicates that the Microdrive is removable, and can be "set"
into a PC, but does not indicate the form factor of the removable
drive, or any specific reader to handle their particular Microdrive.
Based on this, I am concluding that they use a standard CF/Microdrive
card, and using Ad-speak to cloud the issue.
>
>> I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio Carbon
>> or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a 40GB hard
>> drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a camcorder. Why
>> are people opposed to it?
>
>They're just slow getting there.
>
>Mike.

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 5:13:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:13:39 +0000, Mike Brodbelt
<mike@_nospam_coruscant.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:35:31 -0800, TS wrote:
>
>> Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives to
>> ever be created?
>
>Yes:-
>
>http://www.jvc.com/presentations/everio/

On closer examination, the camera uses Microdrive/CD/SD cards.
No inbuilt hard drive. Just the ability to use CF/Microdrive cards,
with ad-speak used to impress/confuse the reader.

Look here:
http://www.jvc.com/presentations/everio/overview/index....
and look to the right of the box that says "Print Service". It explais
what the icons in the diagram mean.

"When the media created with Everio is set into a PC* or Everio is
connected to a PC via a USB 2.0 port, you can play and store data,
burn it to a DVD, upload it to the Internet or print it.
*May require an adapter."
No mention of where to buy the adapter, nor any indication the adapter
needed is anything other than a standard CF or SD reader.

>
>> I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio Carbon
>> or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a 40GB hard
>> drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a camcorder. Why
>> are people opposed to it?
>
>They're just slow getting there.
>
>Mike.

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 6:38:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

You can get a Micro drive already


"TS" <maxview80@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2592918.0411272335.4a3a9ee9@posting.google.com...
> Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives
> to ever be created?
> I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
> Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a
> 40GB hard drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a
> camcorder.
> Why are people opposed to it?
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 6:39:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

maxview80@hotmail.com (TS) writes:

> Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives
> to ever be created?
> I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
> Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera

Just like the 4gb microdrives?

> Why are people opposed to it?

Why are people sufficiently clueless that they suggest 'cool new
ideas' that have been in use for years?

B>
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 6:57:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Seymore" <g_seymore@REMOVEhotmail.com> writes:

> "TS" <maxview80@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a2592918.0411272335.4a3a9ee9@posting.google.com...
> > Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives
> > to ever be created?
> > I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
> > Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a
> > 40GB hard drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a
> > camcorder.
> > Why are people opposed to it?
>
> Because hardrives are usually rated in "ms"... where non-volitle RAM is
> rated in "ns". So, you really want to slow down the write times?

Flash rated to write three orders of magnitude faster than a hard
drive? Really? Wow. When can I get some?

B>
November 28, 2004 7:37:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <a2592918.0411272335.4a3a9ee9@posting.google.com>, maxview80
@hotmail.com says...
>
>Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives
>to ever be created?
>I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
>Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a
>40GB hard drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a
>camcorder.
>Why are people opposed to it?

Nikon has an iPod-like separate 30GB HDD unit with 2.5" viewing screen and CF
card reader. It's not built into the D70 & DX cameras, but serves the basic
purpose.

Hunt
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 9:17:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:47:13 -0700, Big Bill <bill@pipping.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:13:39 +0000, Mike Brodbelt
><mike@_nospam_coruscant.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:35:31 -0800, TS wrote:
>>
>>> Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives to
>>> ever be created?
>>
>>Yes:-
>>
>>http://www.jvc.com/presentations/everio/
>
>On closer examination, the camera uses Microdrive/CD/SD cards.

Darn fat fingers! That should read, "Microdrive/CF/SD cards".

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 11:15:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

My old Kodak DCS410 has a 512mb hard drive in it. That is the only storage
medium I can use with the old clunker.

Sam


"TS" <maxview80@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2592918.0411272335.4a3a9ee9@posting.google.com...
> Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives
> to ever be created?
> I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
> Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a
> 40GB hard drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a
> camcorder.
> Why are people opposed to it?
November 29, 2004 6:37:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

80x speed-12gb compactflash card
http://www.pretec.com/product/SSD/CF_Commercial/Cheetah...
Only $9,999
Pete
--
remove xxx from email to reply
"Jim Townsend" <not@real.address> wrote in message
news:10qjqokr47t04a7@news.supernews.com...
> TS wrote:
>
>> Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives
>> to ever be created?
>> I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
>> Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a
>> 40GB hard drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a
>> camcorder.
>> Why are people opposed to it?
>
> Sony makes a camera with a built in CD burner. All you have to
> do to view your photos is pop out the CD and place it in your
> computer's CDROM.
>
> http://www.steves-digicams.com/cd1000.html
>
> Somehow this configuration isn't popular. Small removable media
> seems to be most preferred.
>
> They've already made hard drives small enough to fit in the place of a
> type II CF card.. They may have 40+ gigs capacity some day.
>
> Of course, they may have solid state 40 gig cards in the future too.
>
> Who knows :-)
>
>
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 9:58:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

maxview80@hotmail.com (TS) writes:
>Any plans for digital cameras and camcorders with built-in hard drives
>to ever be created?
>I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
>Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a
>40GB hard drive from a full sized iPod would work pretty well in a
>camcorder.
>Why are people opposed to it?

Who's opposed to it?

The very early Kodak digital cameras used by news photographers had a
couple of PCMCIA slots that took plug-in hard drives. I think they were
a few hundred MB (not GB) each.

I know I've seen an ENG (electronic news gathering) camera, of the sort
that TV station remote trucks use, that used a hard disk for storage.

You can buy microdrives in the form of a CF Type II card and use them in
many digital cameras today.

However, hard drives are less robust than solid-state flash RAM chips,
and they cost a lot more per byte than magnetic tape. So far, they have
not taken over from these other forms because they're not uniformly
better.

Dave
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 2:46:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I find it slighty amusing that the vast majority of replies here have
been "dude, Microdrives have been in use for years - like, WAKE UP!".

Ok, maybe the OP was completely ignorant, or maybe he just failed to
mention that he wasn't referring to Microdrives. MDs were great for
their day, but solid-state non-volatile RAM these days is cheap enough
to render the benefits of Microdrives questionable.

I think what he was getting at was using small form-factor hard drives
(i.e. 1.8" and 2.5" formats) in cameras. The benefits are obvious:

1) Huge capacities. How about 80GB built into your camera? No more
worries about extra storage, finding CD-burning kiosks or carrying an
external storage device while on a two-week holiday.

2) Speed. Contrary to what a previous poster inferred, modern hard
drives (with the exception of those puny MDs) are many times faster
than the fastest flash memory available today. I did a quick test to
check this and found that transferring an 800MB file via USB2
card-reader to my Ultra II CF card took about 5 minutes. By
comparison, transferring the same file over USB2 to my portable MP3
player (which has a 40GB 2.5" drive in it) took well under a minute.
That is a huge order of magnitude difference folks!

3) Cost. When was the last time you looked up the price of a 4GB card,
let alone one of the new and rare 8GB ones? I did a quick check and a
2GB Sandisk Ultra II CF card would cost me about £150 new. A 2.5" 80GB
drive from the same supplier would cost me about £100! 2/3rds the
price for 40 times the storage? Sounds like a no-brainer.

The cons of hard drives in cameras:

1) Size. This is the only con in this list that doesn't also apply to
MDs. Trying to engineer a 1.8" HDD into a camera body, let alone a
2.5" one while still keeping the camera a decent size would be
difficult. But I think that alternatives can be offered. How about,
for example, an auxillary battery grip that provided a slot for a 2.5"
HDD instead of additional batteries? The user could then have a
choice, and laptop-style, hot-swap between additional storage and
additional power as he/she needs. This would work easily - have you
seen a 2.5" drive in the metal before? They are TINY compared to the
behemoths you have in your desktop PC. They measure about 2.8" x 4" x
0.4". Grab a ruler if you need to - considering something that size
can pack 80GB it's pretty amazing.

2) Power consumption. It takes more juice to drive spindles and move
heads. However drives today are incredibly efficient and I can get
many hours of non-stop usage from my portable device which has a
battery capacity a lot less than that of my D70.

3) Reliability. Hard drives cannot operate in extreme conditions in
the way solid state memory can. When in Antartica or Sahara, flash is
king. However, how often do you find yourself worrying about frostbite
or heatstroke while out on a shoot? Also, there is the problem with
the inherent mechanics of hard drives - they move inside, and are much
more likely to fail than something that doesn't move. And if they
fail, you don't want 80GBs worth of data going with it. MDs don't have
this problem - oh they fail alright, but when they do fail the damage
in data loss isn't as potentially severe. But saying all that, most of
us take very good care of our cameras. Anyone with a decent lens on
their body will treat their camera with utmost respect. If you've ever
broken a lens or a filter through the slightest knock you'll know what
I mean. Modern laptop HDDs are designed to withstand a lot more than
this sort of abuse. I dare say that in general laptops are bashed
around a lot more than decent cameras. And what about the hundreds of
folks who jog with HDD-based MP3 players with no trouble? I think
modern HDDs designed for portable use can take a lot more abuse than
we normally give them credit for.

I think hard drives in cameras is extremely viable and bordering on a
good idea. Back to the original question, why hasn't anyone done it
yet?

R

PS - And in case I haven't made it clear, I'm not talking about
Microdrives! ;) 
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 6:05:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

>>I would think the little 5GB drives similar to what's in in a Rio
>>Carbon or iPod Mini could work very well in a digital camera and a

I saw a site once explaining how to remove the drive from a creative labs mp3
player and plug it right into the card slot of a Nikon.

Can't find it now of course, but it proves it's possible. And much cheaper than
buying the drive on its own.

--
Chris Pollard


CG Internet café, Tagum City, Philippines
http://www.cginternet.net
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 6:09:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:05:35 +0800, Christopher Pollard <xmastree@hotpop.com>
wrote:

>Can't find it now of course,

http://tinyurl.com/3287l

This wasn't the one I saw, but it'll do.

--
Chris Pollard


CG Internet café, Tagum City, Philippines
http://www.cginternet.net
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 6:09:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Christopher Pollard writes:

>On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:05:35 +0800, Christopher Pollard <xmastree@hotpop.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Can't find it now of course,
>
>http://tinyurl.com/3287l
>
>This wasn't the one I saw, but it'll do.

Looks like they're busting their chops to get a 4 gig microdrive for around
$200. B&H sells the 4 gig Hitachi (brand your outfit features) microdrive for
$239.95.

Charlie Self
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity
has made them good." H. L. Mencken
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 6:09:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On 29 Nov 2004 08:58:46 GMT, Charlie Self wrote:

> Christopher Pollard writes:
>
>>On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:05:35 +0800, Christopher Pollard <xmastree@hotpop.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Can't find it now of course,
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/3287l
>>
>>This wasn't the one I saw, but it'll do.
>
> Looks like they're busting their chops to get a 4 gig microdrive for around
> $200. B&H sells the 4 gig Hitachi (brand your outfit features) microdrive for
> $239.95.

That's true now, but not at the time the information became available. I've
been using a Hitachi 4GB drive from a Muvo for nearly a year. In the UK it
cost me 160UKP - including a free Muvo :-) - and the cheapest bare drive I
could find cost over around 300UKP. Prices have changed a lot since then.

Newer Muvos have been doctored to make the Microdrive unusable in a CF slot.

--
John Bean

A cynic is a man who, when he smells flowers, looks around for a coffin
(H. L. Mencken)
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 6:09:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

John Bean responds:

>That's true now, but not at the time the information became available. I've
>been using a Hitachi 4GB drive from a Muvo for nearly a year. In the UK it
>cost me 160UKP - including a free Muvo :-) - and the cheapest bare drive I
>could find cost over around 300UKP. Prices have changed a lot since then.
>

Yes, but the poster was presenting the info now, when it is somewhat outdated,
or needed an addenda.

>Newer Muvos have been doctored to make the Microdrive unusable in a CF slot.

Now ain't that nice of 'em.

What the hell is a Muvo, by the way?



Charlie Self
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity
has made them good." H. L. Mencken
November 29, 2004 6:09:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

John Bean wrote:

[....]

> Newer Muvos have been doctored to make the Microdrive unusable in a CF slot.
>


Those cheap bastards! Control freaks - every one of them.

--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 9:07:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Kibo informs me that Jer <gdunn@airmail.ten> stated that:

>"""""" wrote:
>
>> 80x speed-12gb compactflash card
>> http://www.pretec.com/product/SSD/CF_Commercial/Cheetah...
>> Only $9,999
>> Pete
>
>I think half the group just fainted dead away. Yikes!

On the bright side, you can buy 2 of the 6GB version of the same card
for only $800 each.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 10:53:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On 29 Nov 2004 13:13:18 GMT, Charlie Self wrote:

> John Bean responds:
>
>>That's true now, but not at the time the information became available. I've
>>been using a Hitachi 4GB drive from a Muvo for nearly a year. In the UK it
>>cost me 160UKP - including a free Muvo :-) - and the cheapest bare drive I
>>could find cost over around 300UKP. Prices have changed a lot since then.
>>
>
> Yes, but the poster was presenting the info now, when it is somewhat outdated,
> or needed an addenda.
>
>>Newer Muvos have been doctored to make the Microdrive unusable in a CF slot.
>
> Now ain't that nice of 'em.
>
> What the hell is a Muvo, by the way?

MP3 player, by Creative (the sound card people).

--
John Bean

Why is it drug addicts and computer afficionados are both called users?
(Clifford Stoll)
!