TEC/Peltier CPU Chilled Water Cooling - Page 3
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Overclocking
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- Below Ambient Cooling
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Last response: in Overclocking
threefingeredjack said:
The idea with the single loop was to round off the issue Ryan seemed to refer to regarding the difficulty of controlling the temperatures on either side of the TEC. Ie, when the hot plate is cooled down too far the cold plate doesn't cool as much or something to that effect. In my head that looks like a sharp negative bell curve, which I imagine if you're also pumping varying degrees of hot through it from the CPU, the TEC is going to have to be all over the place trying to keep on top of it. SO! I figured, if you run the heat from the CPU and TEC together through the same radiator/air cooled heat sink, getting down to ambient as best as possible, (so not, no exact size of radiator, just the biggest I can afford, or a number in sequence) then the resultant liquid temperature leading back into the cold chamber will always be more or less the same temperature, whatever ambient is. Ergo, the TEC can be tuned to run at a more specific voltage, as heat from the CPU will be lost in the fluid of the hot chamber. As long as you can cool the hot chamber, the CPU temp doesn't matter. Also, chamber volumes, not sure, there is likely some math can be applied here to give a figure, however, lets just ball park go with whatever Ryan used in his cold tank reservoir thing? Seemed to do the job
I'm not an expert hence why I am asking you guys, it seems like it would work in my head, provided the heat from the radiator can be dispersed. I have an old chimney hole in the wall I was going to put the radiator into. Big, big radiator. Lots of fans. Dedicated PSU all that jazz.What else. Yes, right, pumps, in the wrong place. Should be between the CPU and hot tank. Ignore that. And... the shape of the hot and cold chambers is hypothetical too, the one I was debating building doesn't have a bulkhead but is instead two separate chambers in a sort of hourglass arrangement so there is no contact between the hot and cold sides, they also have internal insulation against the walls. But, that over complicates things and I don't have CAD access right now.
so that lot in mind, what do you think? Ryan is the expert it seems as he's actually built one of these devices which works, so, Ryan, do you think that your system could be enhanced using a single loop system such as this or is something I don't understand going to occur resulting in a resonant cascade scenario transporting me to Xen with no hope of return but to find the Gman?
When the peltiers are considered and people start doing the math as they have in the past and also at OCN they tell my ideas wouldn't work and then continue to explain to me why!
My disillusion at that point is, "What about fully operational for over 8 months do you not understand?".
Edit: That was not directed at you!
I am not running my peltiers at their maximum voltage range, so they're not actually pulling the max wattage or amperage load, which puts them into a performance level that can be cooled with a good quality air cooled heat pipe heat sink.
In simple terms I am producing more cold being transferred to the water than the CPU requires to be cooled, the additional cold goes to my insulated reservoir where it is stored, allowing the water temperature to drop in the reservoir to it hits a point of balance usually around 8.5c below a 25c ambient.
Your ideas may have merit or not, I don't know, as I have not tried them, so I cannot and will not advise you regarding areas I have not actually tested myself.
The system I have described in this thread does work, if you duplicate the Peltier/Heat Sink & 110cfm fans/Water Block assembly, Insulated Reservoir, and Pump, it will perform close to exactly the same as mine does.
That's a solid given I can share with everyone, OK.
When it comes to me speculating on your proposal setup you're basically on your own and if you decide to go forward with testing your ideas, I wish you the best.
Now let me answer what I do have the information to share with you.
Quote:
Ryan seemed to refer to regarding the difficulty of controlling the temperatures on either side of the TEC. Ie, when the hot plate is cooled down too far the cold plate doesn't cool as much or something to that effect.The term is stalling out the peltier, which is a common thing.
The stalling occured in the beginning with testing the fan speeds on the heat pipe air coolers, too low a fan speed and the hot side of the peltier got too hot, to the point the hot from the hot side affected the cold on the cold side, and kept the cold from dropping low enough.
Increasing the fan speeds dropped the hot side low enough the cold side was not affected and it constantly produced cold, BINGO! that's what you want!
The stall can also happen in reverse if the cold side gets too cold, as the thickness of the peltier is only about 1/8th of an inch, but a cold stall is another worry and not a concern with my setup.
So after reading this, what questions do you have?
Note: The ideas I had in the beginning, no matter what anyone said, I was going to pursue them whether they worked or not.
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Reply to 4Ryan6
I am not an expert at all, but i have my own sub ambient system and have been water-cooling for over 8 years,
The “work so well it won’t work” was referring to the pelter/TEC stalling out because of the cold added to the hot side from the line assuming you can get a rad large enough to cool off the hot side the cpu will not should not affect the cold water by more than a degree or 2 making the water too cold once hitting the hot side so you may need a second rad to warm up that water back to ambient.
400 watt plet assume 600-800 watt of heat that’s need to be killed and with rad over kill is best.
Also if this works well you can add your cpu, gpus to the line to help warm it back to ambient as well.
(edit) oops my class work was mixed in the post removed it. Lol
The “work so well it won’t work” was referring to the pelter/TEC stalling out because of the cold added to the hot side from the line assuming you can get a rad large enough to cool off the hot side the cpu will not should not affect the cold water by more than a degree or 2 making the water too cold once hitting the hot side so you may need a second rad to warm up that water back to ambient.
400 watt plet assume 600-800 watt of heat that’s need to be killed and with rad over kill is best.
Also if this works well you can add your cpu, gpus to the line to help warm it back to ambient as well.
(edit) oops my class work was mixed in the post removed it. Lol
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Reply to thequn
threefingeredjack
July 29, 2013 3:16:03 PM
Interesting stuff! The only reason I didn't just copy what Ryan has done was that I don't fully understand it, and it seems very large and messy. Chances are, that is because its the only way to do it, building up a cold reservoir.
Now from what Ryan just said, the TEC's hot side needs to be cooled, as if it gets too hot it doesn't work. Thats exactly the opposite of what I understood when I designed this system!
I've looked over google, and can't find anything on TEC stalling besides these threads, which seem to be contradictory... Can someone just clarify this bit, does the TEC stall because the hot side is too hot, and therefore is heating up the cold side (ergo, encouraging highly efficient heat sink on the cold side is the obvious cure) or, does the hot side NEED to get hot in order to function for some reason? Logic dictates its the former.
Thegun, you seem to be suggesting the latter! That the liquid after the CPU will still be cold, to the point that dumping it into the hot chamber will stall the TEC? Are they BOTH the case? And the TEC needs to be operating in some kind of goldilocks zone?
I just played around with the design, to replace the radiator with a heat sink, and have that heat sink sat in a fluid of some kind in a separate chamber. Also in that fluid is a second heat sink in the line from the CPU to the hot chamber, effectively (and seemingly, pointlessly) neutralising the heat/cold.
Probably only relevant if the TEC requires the hot side kept hot or something...I don't even think I know anymore.
What I think I need to understand is;
1. Does the TEC need the hot side kept hot and the cold side kept cold, or, does it want the hot side kept cooler and the cool side kept hotter?
2. How hot/cold do these things actually get? I'm having some thoughts regarding materials for the chambers, and you mentioned you managed to get the heat sink so hot it burned you...
3. If I just include a potentiameter in this circuit with the TEC, will that suffice to control the heat exchange? Ergo, lower the voltage and it'll lower the heat exchange?
4. I already have a liquid cooler system on the CPU... its a cheap corsair one. And sucks. What if I just put the radiator from that into a contained space with the cold side of the TEC (and appropriate heat sink and fan)? The ambient temperature in the box would be pretty nippy... but not so cold as to be dangerous and probably pretty easily controlled... idk.
Thanks for keeping up with my questions here though, you pair are evidently the internet's foremost authority on this below ambient cooling thing, you must get this a lot
By the way, someone over on overclockers has been saying a lot of complicated things about deltaT, and says the radiator won't dump the heat down to ambient. Any ideas why?
EDIT: An image of that heatsink liquid bath thing. Likely pointless.
http://s8.postimg.org/xbtj7duwl/Heatsink_bath.png
Now from what Ryan just said, the TEC's hot side needs to be cooled, as if it gets too hot it doesn't work. Thats exactly the opposite of what I understood when I designed this system!
I've looked over google, and can't find anything on TEC stalling besides these threads, which seem to be contradictory... Can someone just clarify this bit, does the TEC stall because the hot side is too hot, and therefore is heating up the cold side (ergo, encouraging highly efficient heat sink on the cold side is the obvious cure) or, does the hot side NEED to get hot in order to function for some reason? Logic dictates its the former.
Thegun, you seem to be suggesting the latter! That the liquid after the CPU will still be cold, to the point that dumping it into the hot chamber will stall the TEC? Are they BOTH the case? And the TEC needs to be operating in some kind of goldilocks zone?
I just played around with the design, to replace the radiator with a heat sink, and have that heat sink sat in a fluid of some kind in a separate chamber. Also in that fluid is a second heat sink in the line from the CPU to the hot chamber, effectively (and seemingly, pointlessly) neutralising the heat/cold.
Probably only relevant if the TEC requires the hot side kept hot or something...I don't even think I know anymore.
What I think I need to understand is;
1. Does the TEC need the hot side kept hot and the cold side kept cold, or, does it want the hot side kept cooler and the cool side kept hotter?
2. How hot/cold do these things actually get? I'm having some thoughts regarding materials for the chambers, and you mentioned you managed to get the heat sink so hot it burned you...
3. If I just include a potentiameter in this circuit with the TEC, will that suffice to control the heat exchange? Ergo, lower the voltage and it'll lower the heat exchange?
4. I already have a liquid cooler system on the CPU... its a cheap corsair one. And sucks. What if I just put the radiator from that into a contained space with the cold side of the TEC (and appropriate heat sink and fan)? The ambient temperature in the box would be pretty nippy... but not so cold as to be dangerous and probably pretty easily controlled... idk.
Thanks for keeping up with my questions here though, you pair are evidently the internet's foremost authority on this below ambient cooling thing, you must get this a lot
By the way, someone over on overclockers has been saying a lot of complicated things about deltaT, and says the radiator won't dump the heat down to ambient. Any ideas why?
EDIT: An image of that heatsink liquid bath thing. Likely pointless.
http://s8.postimg.org/xbtj7duwl/Heatsink_bath.png
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Reply to threefingeredjack
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threefingeredjack said:
Now from what Ryan just said, the TEC's hot side needs to be cooled, as if it gets too hot it doesn't work. Thats exactly the opposite of what I understood when I designed this system! I've looked over google, and can't find anything on TEC stalling besides these threads, which seem to be contradictory... Can someone just clarify this bit, does the TEC stall because the hot side is too hot, and therefore is heating up the cold side (ergo, encouraging highly efficient heat sink on the cold side is the obvious cure) or, does the hot side NEED to get hot in order to function for some reason? Logic dictates its the former.
I provided a link in the beginning of this thread so anyone reading could investigate for themselves what a peltier can and cannot do, before you question me because you cannot find something you're looking for on Google, I suggest you read it.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?38367-The-Ultimate-Guide-to-TECs
Stalling out is my explanation of what's happening and you probably won't find any Google references to it by searching for peltier stalling or such, whatever it's terminology is actually Googlable (is that a word?
), IDK, however, it does happen.The link above is some excellent information until you get to the part suggesting not air cooling the peltier, because you obviously can air cool the freaking thing, or I've been running magical fairy godmother cooling for over 8 months!
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Reply to 4Ryan6
Hi.
To answer your question about the Goldilocks zone, YES 100% Both are true, If The hot sides gets too hot it can and will bleed over to the cold side. If the too much coolness hits the hot side the same will happen though to a lesser degree, Because your rad needs to be able to take the hot and remove it 100% back to normal temps before it is then cooled and chilled down to let’s say 10* it will hit the cpu cool it at max jump to 12* then hit the pelter lowering the heat on that side of the system. which can lower the cooling power. (This will depend upon how you move the heat away from the hot side of the pelter) this is also just bases on you diagram (if change are made the idea will change.) I suggested adding a rad to the cold side after the cpu,gpu to warm the water back up before taping the hot side , in essences it "should" be like ruining two loops, only in one loop, of course this is not necessarily what will happen, because it depends on too many factors , and is my best guess assuming perfect conditions and transferring of heat and cold. Asumeing that the cold side will even get cold having to disperse with
Other thoughts:
Once you have this set up its will not magically work the way it should a lot of refining small items ensuring the rad is dropping those temps to Ambient and then you have to make sure the pelter is cooling well and the Liquid is getting cold, then you have to make sure the coil was long enough, to cool it down to the right temps after the liquid is cold, and so on and so forth, Again Everything is better if overkilled on this project. Too big of a rad on both sides too long of a coil to cool the water.
I have to say that i never seen a system like this and this is why i love it because it can work if done right. Though you are going to have to spend a lot of time a resources testing to and building it to make it perfect.
ask any one whose done any creative cooling solution and most custom watering people there set up is an ongoing never quite perfect system and we always have room for more knowledge more testing is like an addiction. LOLOLOLOL
oh also I would like to point out that no can will be able to tell you how effective your TEC will be cooling ambient temps consistently . It could stall it out just by itself, Ryan is the only person I know to have mixed sub ambient cooling and radiators together.
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Reply to thequn
threefingeredjack said:
http://s8.postimg.org/xbtj7duwl/Heatsink_bath.pngAddressing this design of yours I see more questions than answers, even if you tried to use radiators to replace the proposed coils, the design has a lot of flaws that need to be addressed.
So in the top cavity is some kind of coolant that the pump is circulating, assuming that is the peltier fixed in the separation wall, and you're planning on coolant being in direct contact with the peltier itself on both the hot and cold sides?
Even with a moisture insulated or (Potted) peltier, that is not a good idea simply because over time of operation, expansion and contraction, will crack even the best insulated peltier allowing fluid to enter and short out the peltier, they are designed to flex off some moisture, but not designed or insulated for direct submersion in fluid.
Lets consider the top chamber assuming it supposedly is cooling the hot side of the peltier some peltiers top temperature range is 125c, which is basically the burn out point of the peltier so if you were to run it safely for the peltier at say 100c, that is the boiling point of water.
So what happens when the pump fails and it eventually will, and the peltier is still energized, have you thought of that?
The cold side of the peltier in direct fluid contact according to the sketch will actually freeze the fluid, have you thought of that?
You don't show any circulation of the fluid in the lower section only flow through a tube coil, you show a circulation fluid flow in the top section but not the bottom?
Maybe you could fill it with some kind of thermal conductive gel with a seriously low freezing point?
How will you keep an air pocket from forming just below the peltier in the lower section?
The Neutralized water/oil bath section, if it worked perfectly would eventually reach a common temperature, which is very similar to the radiator having an equal and opposite effect to the peltiers cold production in my setup, that's why I eliminated the radiator from my setup, it was counter productive to my end goals.
From what I see sketched out in the picture, the top hot/cold transfer would be a nightmare to produce, the lower bath section will neutralize what the top manages to produce, basically it won't work, but feel free to prove me wrong and if you do, I will admit it right here in front of the world.
There is so much wrong in that design that you may consider going back to the drawing board, at this point it is just an idea, I'm not attempting to offend you, just save you a lot of time and money.
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Reply to 4Ryan6
threefingeredjack said:
1. Does the TEC need the hot side kept hot and the cold side kept cold, or, does it want the hot side kept cooler and the cool side kept hotter?The only thing the TEC or Peltier needs is voltage, when you apply voltage the 2 dissimilar metals react to each other with one side getting hot and the opposite side getting cold. It's actually a marvelous invention and discovery, it has no moving parts and as long as you don't crack it with uneven pressure burn it out, with too much voltage or allowing it to overheat, it's MTBF is amazing long, somewhere in excess of 100,000 hours. The peltier does not want anything it will continue to function as long as it is powered, the key is extracting either useable hot or cold from it, and how to go about it.
2. How hot/cold do these things actually get? I'm having some thoughts regarding materials for the chambers, and you mentioned you managed to get the heat sink so hot it burned you...
Peltiers come in various spec ranges regarding voltage requirements, amperage draw, wattage used, hot side maximum temperature, and the Delta Tmax.
These are the exact peltiers I am running.
Specs below are my peltiers specs.
Quote:
Maximum operating temp: 125 CImax: 26 Amps
Qmax: 243.5 Watts
Vmax: 15.4 Volts
Delta Tmax: >68 (C)
Size: 50mm X 50mm X 3.10mm
In my earlier testing when I first encountered the peltier stalling I was using Ice water cooling which is covered in the Exploring Below Ambient Water Cooling thread linked in the first post of this thread. My light bulb in the brain pan came on, I had what I thought was a brilliant idea, since I already had ice cooling available what a perfect way to cool the hot side of the peltier!
Right?
Wrong! It stalled out the peltier and I got nothing useable!
So from that I learned the hard way that for the peltier to produce a useable outcome the hot side has to be allowed to get hot, there's something for your brain to chew on.
Then I was going to use standard radiator water cooling to cool the hot side of the peltier I used a Black Ice GTX 240 shrouded radiator to do it with with a XSPC Bay Res/Pump with the pump inside the Res, the water temperature got so hot flowing through the loop, the radiator burned my hand to touch it, the same with the pump, and today that pump is dead, it died shortly after that experiment.
I then proceeded to the highest quality heat pipe air cooling heat sink testing, which most at OCN tell me won't work but does work and that's what I use today.
3. If I just include a potentiameter in this circuit with the TEC, will that suffice to control the heat exchange? Ergo, lower the voltage and it'll lower the heat exchange?
You can simply control the useable heat exchange by the fan speed on the heat pipe air cooler, that supposedly doesn't work.
4. I already have a liquid cooler system on the CPU... its a cheap corsair one. And sucks. What if I just put the radiator from that into a contained space with the cold side of the TEC (and appropriate heat sink and fan)? The ambient temperature in the box would be pretty nippy... but not so cold as to be dangerous and probably pretty easily controlled... idk.
That sounds like Motos Chiller Box project.
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Reply to 4Ryan6
threefingeredjack said:
By the way, someone over on overclockers has been saying a lot of complicated things about deltaT, and says the radiator won't dump the heat down to ambient.The Delta Tmax is the best you can hope for between the hot and cold side of the peltier, that sir is the sweet spot I am milking to get the useable cooling results I'm getting.
You can depend on that being a constant if you're supplying the exact spec'd voltage requirement of the peltier, but in my case supplying 3.4v DC less than the spec'd requirement of my peltier changes the other proposed operating parameters of the peltier.
It drops my amperage load down to close to 20amps, it drops my wattage used to 200w, (actual wall tested draw for my setup is 200w per peltier energized), it also changes my Delta Tmax range, which I don't know the actual but is probably dropped to maybe 55c from the spec'd 68c.
That's more than likely why I can use the heat pipe air coolers to cool the hot side because I am not running the maximum voltage to the peltiers, so I get useable cold production from the peltiers cold transfer to the modified flow water blocks by milking the Delta Tmax window.
Now you're not going to find milking the Delta Tmax window on Google, that's my terminology as the cooling I'm running in this thread is new tested and experimented with territory and is apparently Greek to those at OCN! (no offense to the Greeks intended, it's just a commonly used phrase.).
So I discovered that I could control the useable cold output from the peltier by controlling the fan speed on the heat pipe air cooler, with useable meaning producing more cold output than the heat output CPU was creating, countering the CPUs heat with more than needed to do so, which the cold overage is stored in the insulated reservoir, which drops the water temperature in the insulated reservoir.
So in my case and setup I am using the Delta Tmax window to my advantage.
Not everything regarding using peltiers is cut and dry, the math only works with solid input, variables change everything, that's where experimentation comes into play, and I am not through experimenting by a long shot.
My forward progress of course will be building from what I already know for a 100% solid fact works, to attempt to improve upon it!
Which I have already done some improvements by going to the same water blocks and heat pipe air coolers, and when I get the time, which is something I'm extremely short of these days, I'll update this thread.
I am presently not overclocked and with only one peltier energized, my water temperature is 10c below my ambient room temperature vs about 7.5c below ambient when overclocked to 4.5ghz. (not sure why I threw that in other than looking at my present water temperature readout in the reservoir.).
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Reply to 4Ryan6
threefingeredjack
July 31, 2013 6:10:28 AM
Hi Ryan, thegun,
Been reading that info thread you linked me to regarding the peltiers, excellent stuff. Going to go build a spreadsheet to do all the maths for me, should make this a bit easier, I'll send you a copy if you like, might come in useful with your continued experiments. PM me an email address and I'll send it through when I'm done.
Meanwhile, thanks for all the advice! Trying to get as close to expert opinion as possible (since nobody here seems to want to give themselves the title even though they deserve it!) in order to save myself some money was exactly why I was asking you guys. Been thinking on this thing more and more, once I get an idea into my head I don't drop it too quickly!
Regarding the air bubbles etc in the cold chamber... the drawing was literally just as simple as I can make on this (friend's) laptop, I'm away from my PC (the monster I want to chill) at the minute so no CAD I'm afraid. Plus, not everyone is familiar with engineering diagrams so I figured on mspaint doing the job. Anyhoo, yeah, the diagram is all hypothetical, I have a few ideas to ensure no air gaps in the lower chamber, and also to increase heat transfer in the upper chamber using a vortex induced by the flow, as well as a cowling system and heat pipe system to take away heat from the radiator and get it out the room.
I wasn't aware of the TEC cracking over time though, makes sense I just figured the type of insulation they'd use on them would take into account the high/low temperatures involved...you know, in its function? If you're saying that isn't the case then this design wants some additional thinking on... I'm thinking of putting a small heat sink on the hot side anyway before it enters the fluid, so maybe I'll build the chamber around this heat sink.
Regarding the pump stopping working, yeah I figured on all kinds of failsafes assuming something goes wrong with any component it would mean the TEC just boils over or the chambers freeze or the processor could be damaged. Wouldn't be too hard to build a simple transistor based safety into the circuit, killing the TEC, pump or PC if draw across components changed.
So the bottom line is, the hot chamber wants to be kept as close to its deltaT sweet spot temp as possible? This 55 degrees? In which case, I think I can redesign this, and I also think I know what needs to be automated and what can be controlled... just maintaining a constant voltage on the TEC seems inefficient, but you're probably right in it being the only way, however, if I can build this to automatically increase the pump speed/fan speed to ensure the hot side water is always 55 degrees, surely I can then manually control the TEC voltage to determine what I want the processor temperature to be? Maybe. TO THE MATHS!
I'll keep you posted... cheers guys!
Been reading that info thread you linked me to regarding the peltiers, excellent stuff. Going to go build a spreadsheet to do all the maths for me, should make this a bit easier, I'll send you a copy if you like, might come in useful with your continued experiments. PM me an email address and I'll send it through when I'm done.
Meanwhile, thanks for all the advice! Trying to get as close to expert opinion as possible (since nobody here seems to want to give themselves the title even though they deserve it!) in order to save myself some money was exactly why I was asking you guys. Been thinking on this thing more and more, once I get an idea into my head I don't drop it too quickly!
Regarding the air bubbles etc in the cold chamber... the drawing was literally just as simple as I can make on this (friend's) laptop, I'm away from my PC (the monster I want to chill) at the minute so no CAD I'm afraid. Plus, not everyone is familiar with engineering diagrams so I figured on mspaint doing the job. Anyhoo, yeah, the diagram is all hypothetical, I have a few ideas to ensure no air gaps in the lower chamber, and also to increase heat transfer in the upper chamber using a vortex induced by the flow, as well as a cowling system and heat pipe system to take away heat from the radiator and get it out the room.
I wasn't aware of the TEC cracking over time though, makes sense I just figured the type of insulation they'd use on them would take into account the high/low temperatures involved...you know, in its function? If you're saying that isn't the case then this design wants some additional thinking on... I'm thinking of putting a small heat sink on the hot side anyway before it enters the fluid, so maybe I'll build the chamber around this heat sink.
Regarding the pump stopping working, yeah I figured on all kinds of failsafes assuming something goes wrong with any component it would mean the TEC just boils over or the chambers freeze or the processor could be damaged. Wouldn't be too hard to build a simple transistor based safety into the circuit, killing the TEC, pump or PC if draw across components changed.
So the bottom line is, the hot chamber wants to be kept as close to its deltaT sweet spot temp as possible? This 55 degrees? In which case, I think I can redesign this, and I also think I know what needs to be automated and what can be controlled... just maintaining a constant voltage on the TEC seems inefficient, but you're probably right in it being the only way, however, if I can build this to automatically increase the pump speed/fan speed to ensure the hot side water is always 55 degrees, surely I can then manually control the TEC voltage to determine what I want the processor temperature to be? Maybe. TO THE MATHS!
I'll keep you posted... cheers guys!
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Reply to threefingeredjack
threefingeredjack said:
So the bottom line is, the hot chamber wants to be kept as close to its deltaT sweet spot temp as possible? This 55 degrees? In which case, I think I can redesign this, and I also think I know what needs to be automated and what can be controlled... just maintaining a constant voltage on the TEC seems inefficient, but you're probably right in it being the only way, however, if I can build this to automatically increase the pump speed/fan speed to ensure the hot side water is always 55 degrees, surely I can then manually control the TEC voltage to determine what I want the processor temperature to be? Maybe. TO THE MATHS!No! That is not what the 55c meant when I was referencing my possible Tmax.
If you look at my peltier specs the max heat is 125c, that is the point if reached of peltier failure or burn out, so you cannot actually run the peltier at 125c, but if you could with a 68c Tmax your cold side assumed temperature would be 125c - 68cTmax = 57c cold side temperature.
If I supply the full 15.4v to my peltier the 68cTmax does not change so if I wanted to run my actual raw peltier temperature on the cold side at 0c, theoretically I would need a hot side temperature of 68c or 154.4f, that 68c range is the useable window I was referring to not a proposed temperature for your top side hot projection.
Since I am supplying only 12v to my peltier and estimating my new Delta Tmax because the voltage is below spec., my Delta Tmax window is smaller than 68c so I estimated it being approximately 55c, meaning if I want to run a 10c water temperature, I have to use the lower end of the window to give me CPU heat countering water cold side temperature lower than needed to counter the heat from the CPU.
So actually I'm running a hot side temperature around 130f or 55c which yields close to 0c at the peltier itself.
That probably just confused you but is actually what's happening with my setup, I hope that clears the 55c misconception?
The Delta Tmax under perfect spec'd voltage used, is the difference between what the the hot side is allowed to reach and how cold the cold side actually gets, of the raw peltier.
The reason I said raw peltier, is other things affect the peltier, the thickness of the copper on the cold side pick up has a direct relation to whether the cold is transferred fast or slow and whether it will cause the peltier to stall out.
The reason the modified flow water blocks work is the copper base is only 3mm thick or just shy of 1/8th of an inch, with the constant water flowing through the block it transfers the cold from the raw peltier through the copper to the water fast.
Which effectively keeps the cold side from getting too cold and overriding the heat of the hot side, which causes the peltier to stall, in my setup the peltier does not stall, it keeps constantly outputting cold.
And that sir, is why it works!
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Reply to 4Ryan6
I went "shopping" for a Pelter Yesterday I checked 32 stores - 6 computer shops 7 Radio-shacks 2 fry's 2 best buys 1 toys are us 3 home depots 2 lows 1 harbor freight 5 indie shops 3 music stores and the La conversion center. No one even knew what a TEC, pleter, Thermoelectric cooler was, closest response was a 3.5g bottle of Arctic sliver 5... LOLOLOLOL Thank god for the internet and shipping companys cant imgain how people use to get things they wanted 20 years ago...
All in all spent 68 dollars in gas drove about 300 miles and honestly it was fun and I had a good time.
All in all spent 68 dollars in gas drove about 300 miles and honestly it was fun and I had a good time.
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Reply to thequn
thequn said:
I went "shopping" for a Pelter Yesterday I checked 32 stores - 6 computer shops 7 Radio-shacks 2 fry's 2 best buys 1 toys are us 3 home depots 2 lows 1 harbor freight 5 indie shops 3 music stores and the La conversion center. No one even knew what a TEC, pleter, Thermoelectric cooler was, closest response was a 3.5g bottle of Arctic sliver 5... LOLOLOLOL Thank god for the internet and shipping companys cant imgain how people use to get things they wanted 20 years ago...All in all spent 68 dollars in gas drove about 300 miles and honestly it was fun and I had a good time.
Is this a joke?
I would have loved to have seen the faces at Best Buy when you asked for a peltier! ROFLMAO
Most times now when the Geek Squad see me walk in they go on break!
I had a poor little Best Buy newbie come stumbling over himself to assist me one day, took about 30 seconds of conversation for him to realize he didn't know squat!
Two minutes later he was ready to run from me and was wondering why he had ever walked up to me!
Best Buy, the Idiot Squad! ROFLMAO
You could have bought a peltier and paid for shipping in the gasoline you used on that adventure, of course you've now learned that the hard way.
http://www.shop.customthermoelectric.com/Standard-TECs_c2.htm;jsessionid=4A14A2EF1DC40DAFC60B1335B961C477.m1plqscsfapp03
FrozenCPU is very limited to what they carry they only have 2 models the 245watt linked below that I am using and a 80watt.
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/2408/exp-01/245W_Potted_Peltier.html
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Reply to 4Ryan6
LOL,,, yes. I knew going out before hand that I was not likely to find one. I was out shopping for other things and wanted to make a day of it. but i thought it was funny how every place I went to every one 100% knew what I was looking for....... only for them to come back with something ridiculous....
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Reply to thequn
threefingeredjack
August 3, 2013 4:59:38 AM
Firstly, lol yeah I was in town the other day and asked in a couple of PC shops... I got some blank looks regarding TEC plates.
Secondly, to Ryan, no that makes sense now, I get the deltaT thing and how keeping the hotside within the window is the important part of the TEC magic trick.
I've had a play with the spreadsheet to map the possible temperature range and the amount of wattage-dispersal required by a cooling radiator or heatsink in order to keep the hot side within range. I still can't see a reason why the second design i posted wouldn't work, it would effectively enable you to run a hot and cold loop and just use the cold loop for cooling and the hot loop for heating...something else. Coffee say.
The only issue I'm having is working out how the heat is transferred and in what quantity from the CPU to the cold line, and what impact changing the pump speed would have. I'd like to balance the system if I can, ensuring neither the TEC nor the pump are doing more work that needed. Rather than just run the fans at different speeds to compensate for over-abundant heat production from the TEC.
SO! I'm just trying to get my head around this whole Q=CMT something or other equation and how that relates to fluid flowing through a waterblock... I'll get there. PM me both your emails and I'll send it through when I'm done. Might help others build such a system as it details the amount of wattage radiators need to disperse in order to stay on top of the TEC heating + processor. On the plus side, the hotter the radiator is, the faster the heat disperses from it, so adding the CPU heat to the TEC heat actually makes the radiators more efficient, thus the pump/fans can be run slower... which is pretty ace. I just want to balance the whole damn thing somehow...
Secondly, to Ryan, no that makes sense now, I get the deltaT thing and how keeping the hotside within the window is the important part of the TEC magic trick.
I've had a play with the spreadsheet to map the possible temperature range and the amount of wattage-dispersal required by a cooling radiator or heatsink in order to keep the hot side within range. I still can't see a reason why the second design i posted wouldn't work, it would effectively enable you to run a hot and cold loop and just use the cold loop for cooling and the hot loop for heating...something else. Coffee say.
The only issue I'm having is working out how the heat is transferred and in what quantity from the CPU to the cold line, and what impact changing the pump speed would have. I'd like to balance the system if I can, ensuring neither the TEC nor the pump are doing more work that needed. Rather than just run the fans at different speeds to compensate for over-abundant heat production from the TEC.
SO! I'm just trying to get my head around this whole Q=CMT something or other equation and how that relates to fluid flowing through a waterblock... I'll get there. PM me both your emails and I'll send it through when I'm done. Might help others build such a system as it details the amount of wattage radiators need to disperse in order to stay on top of the TEC heating + processor. On the plus side, the hotter the radiator is, the faster the heat disperses from it, so adding the CPU heat to the TEC heat actually makes the radiators more efficient, thus the pump/fans can be run slower... which is pretty ace. I just want to balance the whole damn thing somehow...
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Reply to threefingeredjack
Note to anyone considering duplicating my setup:
The Swiftech Apogee XTL is the best block for flow modifying to use with a 50mm x 50mm size peltier, I'm recommending it over the XSPC Rasa, the Rasa will still work, but not as well as the Apogee XTL.
Due to the XTLs larger copper base plate the entire 50mm x 50mm peltier fits in solid contact fully covering the contacting face, whereas the Rasa base plate is exactly the same size as the peltier, requiring filling the screw indents with thermal compound.
The Apogee XTL is exactly the same design of the original Apogee XT, but the top is machined from black delrin, which is much easier to cut and modify, and is also cheaper, the copper base is wider allowing further coverage and cold pickup of a 50mm x 50mm peltier.
I must start this next comment with apologies as my camera is malfunctioning so I have no pictures to show of the modifications I did to the XTL to increase its flow, but it works very well.
I additionally had a HDD failure which cost me every picture I had taken that had not been backed up, we tend to take things for granted since things seem to be running so smoothly, but that failure beast is still out there, make sure you backup regularly what you do not want to loose!
I will be taking new pictures of the setup as it sits now and replacing the pictures in the beginning of this thread once I either discover what's wrong with the camera or use another to take them.
PerformancePCs is one of the only places you can still acquire the Thermalright TRUE without the fans, which is great if you already have the fans you need.
They also have an excellent price on the XSPC Rasa, if that is the block you prefer.
The Swiftech Apogee XTL is the best block for flow modifying to use with a 50mm x 50mm size peltier, I'm recommending it over the XSPC Rasa, the Rasa will still work, but not as well as the Apogee XTL.
Due to the XTLs larger copper base plate the entire 50mm x 50mm peltier fits in solid contact fully covering the contacting face, whereas the Rasa base plate is exactly the same size as the peltier, requiring filling the screw indents with thermal compound.
The Apogee XTL is exactly the same design of the original Apogee XT, but the top is machined from black delrin, which is much easier to cut and modify, and is also cheaper, the copper base is wider allowing further coverage and cold pickup of a 50mm x 50mm peltier.
I must start this next comment with apologies as my camera is malfunctioning so I have no pictures to show of the modifications I did to the XTL to increase its flow, but it works very well.
I additionally had a HDD failure which cost me every picture I had taken that had not been backed up, we tend to take things for granted since things seem to be running so smoothly, but that failure beast is still out there, make sure you backup regularly what you do not want to loose!
I will be taking new pictures of the setup as it sits now and replacing the pictures in the beginning of this thread once I either discover what's wrong with the camera or use another to take them.
PerformancePCs is one of the only places you can still acquire the Thermalright TRUE without the fans, which is great if you already have the fans you need.
They also have an excellent price on the XSPC Rasa, if that is the block you prefer.
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Reply to 4Ryan6
I modded my Rasa Water Block much more than I had remembered!
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I remember starting with the wagon wheel design, but had the block begin to freeze up, not to the point of splitting it open, but to the point of freezing up enough to choke off the water flow, so I obviously modded it again.
This is the end result and what I've been running.
My apologies for the pictures!
My digital camera is giving me a fit presently, I took about 20 pictures just to get these 2 and I'm not sure why it's happening?
This camera has been fantastic up to this point I fear I may have to replace it.
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Major changes from the original the first step protrusion was completely removed.


I remember starting with the wagon wheel design, but had the block begin to freeze up, not to the point of splitting it open, but to the point of freezing up enough to choke off the water flow, so I obviously modded it again.
This is the end result and what I've been running.
My apologies for the pictures!
My digital camera is giving me a fit presently, I took about 20 pictures just to get these 2 and I'm not sure why it's happening?
This camera has been fantastic up to this point I fear I may have to replace it.

Major changes from the original the first step protrusion was completely removed.
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Reply to 4Ryan6
kauedg
August 5, 2013 8:14:25 AM
thequn said:
Wow Ryan,lol
its smooth did you sand it down a bit? or did the water flow do that? also how far did you lap the copper plate?
Used the small Dremel polishing wheel to smooth it over, takes light touch so you don't melt the acetal.
Copper base plate was not lapped, filled the screw head indents with thermal compound as the Rasa copper base plate is exactly 50mm x 50mm.
If you use a Swiftech XTL water block it's large enough so there are no screw hole indents to fill, using a 50mm x 50mm peltier.
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Reply to 4Ryan6
threefingeredjack
August 19, 2013 6:35:06 AM
So!
Been a while, I've been busy with many things so haven't dedicated all that much time to this TEC concept.
I've been trying to get my head around heat transfer rates and its interaction with the actual and rectified temperature of the CPU. In theory, my system should work just fine...as long as I only wanted about 25 degrees on the CPU... Hardly seems worth it. I'm struggling to work out how in your (Ryan's) system you managed to get these low temps.
In my calculations it works out that the water block on the CPU, running a pump at 5 L/sec, pumping 5 degree water across a copper plate manages a heat transfer rate of about 200w.
My issue: I have no idea what this means. No, rather, I understand this to mean it can transfer heat away at a rate of 0.105330775 degrees per second. So it basically drops the temp by 1 degree every ten secs. Great right? Provided no additional heat is being added by the CPU, then yeah. However, it probably will be, so, is the main problem that I need to work out the Watts of the CPU? If so Wikipedia says mine does 95W.
I don't think there is a way to calculate all this in 2 dimensions. I need some sort of bloody CFD system or something. I think I can start to see why you've got 2 TEC in your system.
Might build it all when I've got some cash together. I'll keep the forum posted if I do, and if there is anyone who wants to take a look at this damn spreadsheet and let me know where I'm going wrong I would be willing to throw a parade for you.
Been a while, I've been busy with many things so haven't dedicated all that much time to this TEC concept.
I've been trying to get my head around heat transfer rates and its interaction with the actual and rectified temperature of the CPU. In theory, my system should work just fine...as long as I only wanted about 25 degrees on the CPU... Hardly seems worth it. I'm struggling to work out how in your (Ryan's) system you managed to get these low temps.
In my calculations it works out that the water block on the CPU, running a pump at 5 L/sec, pumping 5 degree water across a copper plate manages a heat transfer rate of about 200w.
My issue: I have no idea what this means. No, rather, I understand this to mean it can transfer heat away at a rate of 0.105330775 degrees per second. So it basically drops the temp by 1 degree every ten secs. Great right? Provided no additional heat is being added by the CPU, then yeah. However, it probably will be, so, is the main problem that I need to work out the Watts of the CPU? If so Wikipedia says mine does 95W.
I don't think there is a way to calculate all this in 2 dimensions. I need some sort of bloody CFD system or something. I think I can start to see why you've got 2 TEC in your system.
Might build it all when I've got some cash together. I'll keep the forum posted if I do, and if there is anyone who wants to take a look at this damn spreadsheet and let me know where I'm going wrong I would be willing to throw a parade for you.
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Reply to threefingeredjack
threefingeredjack said:
So! Been a while, I've been busy with many things so haven't dedicated all that much time to this TEC concept.
I've been trying to get my head around heat transfer rates and its interaction with the actual and rectified temperature of the CPU. In theory, my system should work just fine...as long as I only wanted about 25 degrees on the CPU... Hardly seems worth it. I'm struggling to work out how in your (Ryan's) system you managed to get these low temps.
In my calculations it works out that the water block on the CPU, running a pump at 5 L/sec, pumping 5 degree water across a copper plate manages a heat transfer rate of about 200w.
My issue: I have no idea what this means. No, rather, I understand this to mean it can transfer heat away at a rate of 0.105330775 degrees per second. So it basically drops the temp by 1 degree every ten secs. Great right? Provided no additional heat is being added by the CPU, then yeah. However, it probably will be, so, is the main problem that I need to work out the Watts of the CPU? If so Wikipedia says mine does 95W.
I don't think there is a way to calculate all this in 2 dimensions. I need some sort of bloody CFD system or something. I think I can start to see why you've got 2 TEC in your system.
Might build it all when I've got some cash together. I'll keep the forum posted if I do, and if there is anyone who wants to take a look at this damn spreadsheet and let me know where I'm going wrong I would be willing to throw a parade for you.
You have enough information in your calculating I'm not sure why you can't get your head around it.
Quote:
copper plate manages a heat transfer rate of about 200wQuote:
Watts of the CPU? If so Wikipedia says mine does 95wSo 95w of CPU produced heat is subtracted from the 200w which = 105w of cooling produced over the CPUs produced 95w of heat, that 105w cooling overage is what is stored in the insulated reservoir.
That 95w CPU heat load increases the higher you overclock the CPU when you increase the CPUs operating voltage, when the 95w increases, it takes more away from the 200w constant.
Even in the CPUs highest overclock max heat range it still does not counter the 200w produced cooling it may knock the overage down to maybe absolutely worst case possibly 90w, but that overage still builds on the cold in the reservoir.
However, Here's what most seem to miss, the theoretical 105w cooling overage going to the insulated reservoir is not only countering the CPUs heat output, but at the same time is constantly dropping the temperature of the water in the reservoir.
As that reservoir water temperature drops, it improves the overall cooling for even better performance.
Quote:
I think I can start to see why you've got 2 TEC in your system.The 2nd TEC is mainly for high end gaming it allows a constant gaming temperature around 10c water temperature, and also for running stress tests to stabilize higher overclocks.
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Reply to 4Ryan6
There are many various applications of peltier use!
From direct CPU mounting, to chilling air in a cooler, they can be used to cool, and even be used to heat something that you absolutely do not want to freeze like for instance, a control valve, if you artificially supply the hot and cold to the peltier you get electricity from the leads in return.
The simple key to using the peltiers capabilities is getting what you specifically want from it, and how to go about it.
That is what this thread is all about, one method of acquiring a useable cold output from the peltier, that can be harnessed and stored and used to cool a CPU below ambient room temperature, without condensation worries, if you choose to run the setup above the moisture forming water temperature range.
If you choose to run below the moisture forming water temperature range, you will have to run an anti-freeze coolant, and moisture insulate the motherboard, in and around the CPU socket.
My choice is running above the moisture forming, with no worries, but this cooling can and will go below zero, if you do not control what it is allowed to do.
I have been blasted up one side and down the other, and grilled by some, that have gone to great detail to explain to me why what I am presenting in this thread will not work.
Yet it is now crossing the threshold of 9 months in operation, so for those determined to explain to me in detail, either in PMs, or at other websites, put 9 months in operation in your thought processes and explain to me what you do not understand about it!
And while you all wallow in your doubts, and you know who you are, I'm successfully running this cooling that obviously does work very well!
I am not a practicing liar!
If I tell you this works, then by God you can count on it as 100% solid fact!
If I am supplying false information, that is a ban-able offense at THGF, and as a retired moderator, I know the rules of this forum better than most of the active moderators of today do.
So if any THGF administration wants to come to my home and see this cooling in operation, and verify these results my door is wide open to you!
This is a ground breaking cooling solution, and it is important IMO, that it was discovered and successfully put into operation by a THGF forum member.
Ryan
From direct CPU mounting, to chilling air in a cooler, they can be used to cool, and even be used to heat something that you absolutely do not want to freeze like for instance, a control valve, if you artificially supply the hot and cold to the peltier you get electricity from the leads in return.
The simple key to using the peltiers capabilities is getting what you specifically want from it, and how to go about it.
That is what this thread is all about, one method of acquiring a useable cold output from the peltier, that can be harnessed and stored and used to cool a CPU below ambient room temperature, without condensation worries, if you choose to run the setup above the moisture forming water temperature range.
If you choose to run below the moisture forming water temperature range, you will have to run an anti-freeze coolant, and moisture insulate the motherboard, in and around the CPU socket.
My choice is running above the moisture forming, with no worries, but this cooling can and will go below zero, if you do not control what it is allowed to do.
I have been blasted up one side and down the other, and grilled by some, that have gone to great detail to explain to me why what I am presenting in this thread will not work.
Yet it is now crossing the threshold of 9 months in operation, so for those determined to explain to me in detail, either in PMs, or at other websites, put 9 months in operation in your thought processes and explain to me what you do not understand about it!
And while you all wallow in your doubts, and you know who you are, I'm successfully running this cooling that obviously does work very well!
I am not a practicing liar!
If I tell you this works, then by God you can count on it as 100% solid fact!
If I am supplying false information, that is a ban-able offense at THGF, and as a retired moderator, I know the rules of this forum better than most of the active moderators of today do.
So if any THGF administration wants to come to my home and see this cooling in operation, and verify these results my door is wide open to you!
This is a ground breaking cooling solution, and it is important IMO, that it was discovered and successfully put into operation by a THGF forum member.
Ryan
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Reply to 4Ryan6
threefingeredjack
August 21, 2013 5:48:32 AM
4Ryan6 said:
There are many various applications of peltier use! From direct CPU mounting, to chilling air in a cooler, they can be used to cool, and even be used to heat something that you absolutely do not want to freeze like for instance, a control valve, if you artificially supply the hot and cold to the peltier you get electricity from the leads in return.
The simple key to using the peltiers capabilities is getting what you specifically want from it, and how to go about it.
That is what this thread is all about, one method of acquiring a useable cold output from the peltier, that can be harnessed and stored and used to cool a CPU below ambient room temperature, without condensation worries, if you choose to run the setup above the moisture forming water temperature range.
If you choose to run below the moisture forming water temperature range, you will have to run an anti-freeze coolant, and moisture insulate the motherboard, in and around the CPU socket.
My choice is running above the moisture forming, with no worries, but this cooling can and will go below zero, if you do not control what it is allowed to do.
I have been blasted up one side and down the other, and grilled by some, that have gone to great detail to explain to me why what I am presenting in this thread will not work.
Yet it is now crossing the threshold of 9 months in operation, so for those determined to explain to me in detail, either in PMs, or at other websites, put 9 months in operation in your thought processes and explain to me what you do not understand about it!
And while you all wallow in your doubts, and you know who you are, I'm successfully running this cooling that obviously does work very well!
I am not a practicing liar!
If I tell you this works, then by God you can count on it as 100% solid fact!
If I am supplying false information, that is a ban-able offense at THGF, and as a retired moderator, I know the rules of this forum better than most of the active moderators of today do.
So if any THGF administration wants to come to my home and see this cooling in operation, and verify these results my door is wide open to you!
This is a ground breaking cooling solution, and it is important IMO, that it was discovered and successfully put into operation by a THGF forum member.
Ryan
Like a senior management official.
So I'm liking the potential. I'll begin building asap and get back to you. My personal thoughts regarding sub-condensation temps are that I might submerge the MOBO in mineral oil. I've seen it done, looks cool as hell. Again, something which can be done relatively cheaply and would have the overall added bonus of being able to cool the surrounding fluid bringing the RAM and GPU temps down also. (Or, be more of an issue with the added temps of each) That 95w goes up to 105 overclocked, and was stated as a max wattage rather than continuous output. So I think I'll be ok... think I'm going to have to find a peltier of similar spec to yours or bigger though if I go mineral oil.
Cheers for all your advice! You are a pioneer in the field! If my system all goes wrong, I'll come back for a technical diagram and maybe we can put together a product of some sort. I've seen a lot of interest in these peltier systems, considered holy grails of CPU cooling.
Cudos!
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Reply to threefingeredjack
Swiftech Apogee XTL Water Block Flow Modifications. ( After the fact)
The block is shown already modified as previously explained all my previous pictures were lost when my HDD failed, I'll be showing the tools used and the bits for the tools used and where they were used and what for.
![]()
The tools used were a Dremel Tool and a Screw Gun Drill
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Dremel bits used on the left
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Step bit used on the right
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The Step Bit allowed boring from the bottom side to widen the mouth without hitting and damaging the G14 Threads of the water block.
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A dremel Steel Bur cutter was used for the deep path cutting
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The larger Dremel diamond coated ball for smoothing
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The dremel diamond ball taper was also used for smoothing
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The dremel diamond cone was used to bevel the outer edge inside perimeter
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The Dremel small buffing wheel was used to polish, used medium speed with a light touch.
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Finished results
![]()
Ready for reassembly
![]()
The block is shown already modified as previously explained all my previous pictures were lost when my HDD failed, I'll be showing the tools used and the bits for the tools used and where they were used and what for.

The tools used were a Dremel Tool and a Screw Gun Drill

Dremel bits used on the left

Step bit used on the right


The Step Bit allowed boring from the bottom side to widen the mouth without hitting and damaging the G14 Threads of the water block.


A dremel Steel Bur cutter was used for the deep path cutting


The larger Dremel diamond coated ball for smoothing


The dremel diamond ball taper was also used for smoothing


The dremel diamond cone was used to bevel the outer edge inside perimeter


The Dremel small buffing wheel was used to polish, used medium speed with a light touch.



Finished results

Ready for reassembly

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Reply to 4Ryan6
Reefa_Madness
August 23, 2013 6:19:46 AM
Thanks! Reefa_Madness
They work very well with the modifications shown, the flow rate through the block is increased probably 10 fold.
The Swiftech Apogee XTL is definitely the block to go with, having the 2 modified Swiftech water blocks in the loop has allowed the water temperature to drop with the 2nd peltier assembly energized while running IBT.
Previously IBT would gradually warm the reservoir water temperature but now it not only holds but continues to drop it.
The only water loop change made was switching from the Rasa to the Swiftech, so the Swiftech block has to be greatly responsible for the increased cold transfer change.
Heavy gaming with both peltiers engaged is now around a steady 10c water temperature with the 3770K OCd to 4500mhz not bad since gaming really doesn't need a 4500mhz overclock in the first place.
Gaming at 10c is about 14c below ambient room temperature with no condensation worries.
EDIT: Well there is another factor that is affecting it, I also changed the Xiggy heat pipe cooler to another Thermalright TRUE.
They work very well with the modifications shown, the flow rate through the block is increased probably 10 fold.
The Swiftech Apogee XTL is definitely the block to go with, having the 2 modified Swiftech water blocks in the loop has allowed the water temperature to drop with the 2nd peltier assembly energized while running IBT.
Previously IBT would gradually warm the reservoir water temperature but now it not only holds but continues to drop it.
The only water loop change made was switching from the Rasa to the Swiftech, so the Swiftech block has to be greatly responsible for the increased cold transfer change.
Heavy gaming with both peltiers engaged is now around a steady 10c water temperature with the 3770K OCd to 4500mhz not bad since gaming really doesn't need a 4500mhz overclock in the first place.
Gaming at 10c is about 14c below ambient room temperature with no condensation worries.
EDIT: Well there is another factor that is affecting it, I also changed the Xiggy heat pipe cooler to another Thermalright TRUE.
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Reply to 4Ryan6
Reefa_Madness
August 23, 2013 8:25:34 AM
Reefa_Madness said:
Quote:
EDIT: Well there is another factor that is affecting it, I also changed the Xiggy heat pipe cooler to another Thermalright TRUE.That could certainly have played a part. I would choose the TRUE over the Xigmatek S1283 under most circumstances.
The Xiggy in the beginning was just a test of a heat pipe air cooler I already had on hand, it was shelved and something I did not have to buy at the time.
I tested it to see if it would manage the hot side temperature, and it did an excellent job almost as good as the TRUE, I could have just left it in operation with the new Swiftech XTL block and it would have performed well, as it had already proved itself.
For sheer looks sake I wanted a purposeful look of the cooling setup, not a miss matched thrown together look, that's why I bought the 2nd Thermalright TRUE, but for the record the Xiggy can handle it, that was the main reason when Newegg had the Xigmatek Gaia SD1283 HDT on sale for $19.99 I bought 4 of them, because my peltier testing is far from over,
I'll just be continuing forward and capitalizing now on what I know for a 100% fact works, I additionally have 2 brand new boxed water blocks to be modified, not from XSPC or Swiftech, but no names will be revealed until I know for a fact whether they will work, or not!
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Reply to 4Ryan6
Reefa_Madness
August 25, 2013 1:17:55 PM
$20 for the Xigatek coolers is a good price.
I've bought my TRUEs "pre-owned" (to borrow a phrase from the used car dealers) so that's the same range ($20-$25) of what I've paid for them.
So you have some new sacrificial waterblocks, huh? Hope they work out well for you. More options is a good thing.
One thing that's a plus for those Swiftech XTL water blocks pictured in your tutorial is that for the time being you can still buy the XT Rev. 2 chrome plated brass tops for them directly from Swiftech, so even if you mod the original housing beyond the point of ever being able to use on a CPU, you can get the replacement housing and they can be returned to fully functional CPU blocks.
http://www.swiftech.com/APOGEE-XT-HOUSING.aspx
I've bought my TRUEs "pre-owned" (to borrow a phrase from the used car dealers) so that's the same range ($20-$25) of what I've paid for them.
So you have some new sacrificial waterblocks, huh? Hope they work out well for you. More options is a good thing.
One thing that's a plus for those Swiftech XTL water blocks pictured in your tutorial is that for the time being you can still buy the XT Rev. 2 chrome plated brass tops for them directly from Swiftech, so even if you mod the original housing beyond the point of ever being able to use on a CPU, you can get the replacement housing and they can be returned to fully functional CPU blocks.
http://www.swiftech.com/APOGEE-XT-HOUSING.aspx
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Reply to Reefa_Madness
Reefa_Madness said:
One thing that's a plus for those Swiftech XTL water blocks pictured in your tutorial is that for the time being you can still buy the XT Rev. 2 chrome plated brass tops for them directly from Swiftech, so even if you mod the original housing beyond the point of ever being able to use on a CPU, you can get the replacement housing and they can be returned to fully functional CPU blocks.http://www.swiftech.com/APOGEE-XT-HOUSING.aspx
Interesting to know but the Swiftech block was originally sacrificed because it was not the best CPU cooling water block, the XSPC Rasa was the better CPU cooler between the 2 blocks, and the XSPC Raystorm even better than the Rasa.
So I personally would never even consider restoring the Swiftech water block to it's former old school glory, it makes a much better cold pickup water block than it ever did a CPU cooling block.
For my purposes, once it passed from an experiment to functional reality it's possibilities of ever returning back to stock ceased to exist, but it is nice to know the top can still be purchased today, which may not be available tomorrow, so anyone even considering returning it to stock best get the top now while they can.
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Reply to 4Ryan6
Reefa_Madness
August 26, 2013 4:57:17 AM
Quote:
Interesting to know but the Swiftech block was originally sacrificed because it was not the best CPU cooling water block, the XSPC Rasa was the better CPU cooler between the 2 blocks, and the XSPC Raystorm even better than the Rasa.So I personally would never even consider restoring the Swiftech water block to it's former old school glory, it makes a much better cold pickup water block than it ever did a CPU cooling block.
Well, I guess opinions vary, both about the effectiveness of the block and whether or not restoring it to a functional CPU block has any merit.
I've read several reviews of the Swiftech block with the Rev 2 housing that place it within a degree or two of the competition (at the time of the testing) so even if it wasn't the top rated water block, it certainly appears to be more than adequate and it uses a relatively user-friendly mounting system. I'm not looking at this from the standpoint of whether or not it the best block, but instead from the perspective that I'd rather have the block functional and able to be placed in service, or even sold, as opposed to mutilated and discarded, or alternatively relegated to the scrap parts bin.
I can certainly understand that not everyone would feel the same way.
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Reply to Reefa_Madness
Reefa_Madness said:
Quote:
Interesting to know but the Swiftech block was originally sacrificed because it was not the best CPU cooling water block, the XSPC Rasa was the better CPU cooler between the 2 blocks, and the XSPC Raystorm even better than the Rasa.So I personally would never even consider restoring the Swiftech water block to it's former old school glory, it makes a much better cold pickup water block than it ever did a CPU cooling block.
Well, I guess opinions vary, both about the effectiveness of the block and whether or not restoring it to a functional CPU block has any merit.
I've read several reviews of the Swiftech block with the Rev 2 housing that place it within a degree or two of the competition (at the time of the testing) so even if it wasn't the top rated water block, it certainly appears to be more than adequate and it uses a relatively user-friendly mounting system. I'm not looking at this from the standpoint of whether or not it the best block, but instead from the perspective that I'd rather have the block functional and able to be placed in service, or even sold, as opposed to mutilated and discarded, or alternatively relegated to the scrap parts bin.
I can certainly understand that not everyone would feel the same way.
This cooling is not for everybody, sacrificial means just that, sacrificing something to be physically modified and used for another purpose, if you're not ready to make the sacrifice, don't!
I really do not care!
Reviews mean squat to me, because reviewers can be bought off, and it happens every single day.
I do my own testing and comparisons, and if my testing is different from a review, so be it, my results are what I will use to go forward with!
Do I have shelved parts or mutilated and discarded, or alternatively relegated to the scrap parts bin, you bet ya!
Have I lost any sleep over it?
No!
It was simply part of the discovery process to get where my cooling is now, if you don't take chances and sacrifice something in the pursuit of discovery, you'll still be asking questions a year from now, and my cooling will be progressed even further!
Any more questions? Ryan
Edit: One more point I want to make, caution is a good thing but I am way past caution into the actual performing facts of what this cooling can do, while you are still on the other side of the fence marveling at the unknown, once it is know!
The excitement of discovery overrides caution because then you know what works!
And it is not unknown any more, and you strive to improve upon it, then sacrificing some part like a CPU water block is totally irrelevant to accomplishing your goal.
However as long as you are standing in the unknown, all you have is doubt and questions, once the unknown is known you have answers.
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Reply to 4Ryan6
Reefa_Madness
August 26, 2013 6:31:40 AM
@ Reefa_Madness
I apologize to you for my attitude, I couldn't understand why you were grilling me in the PMs between us then moving out into this thread seemed like a continuation to me, it seemed to me you just could not grasp what I was telling you, and I was beating my head against the wall trying to explain it to you over and over.
Then I see the quote below at another website and realize you understood all along?
My intentions were never to discourage anyone from attempting their own ideas that's the only way to find out for sure is experiment and discover.
My impatience came from questions from you I did not have answers to, because the only solid answers I had was from what I had actually tested, and what I had solid information on, you questioned over and over and over, (I'm specifically referencing not using a radiator and peltier together in the same loop).
This is news to anyone reading this now, not having the PM communication between us as that information is 100% confidential, but is what loaded me for bear when you entered this thread, my bad!
So this is my official apology to you and I do hope you will share any solid discoveries you my come across in your own testing.
Ryan
That linked thread is a pretty good read and it covers his journey from the use of frozen gallon jugs inserted into an insulated cooler thru his current set up of using a pair of TECs to cool the water in his CPU loop.
There is also a second thread devoted strickly to the use of the peltier with an insulated reservoir (the insulated reservoir, along with insulated loop tubing is basically the "trick" to making this work). The two threads have links to each other, but the posts are not copied from one to the other. This second thread was started after the system was operational for something in the range of 8-9 months, so it is not a "hypothetical" system...it is a functioning daily driver / gaming machine with a pair of GTX 580s (these are on a separate non-peltier water cooled loop).
Link to the second thread:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/282844-29-peltier-water-cooling
The way Ryan has worked it up, he is using it strictly for cooling his CPU at temps just above the dew point (in his air conditioned office) so that he doesn't have to insulate the components...this is by design as he did not want to deal with condensation concerns.
He has two independent 50mm peltier units (each rated at Qmax of around 245W), each air cooled by a TRUE with a single fan in a pull configuration. These TECs are located just before the insulated reservoir and are sandwiched between a water block with a modified housing (to improve flow in order to reduce icing concerns) and the TRUE. One unit runs at start up and the second unit can be toggled on/off as his cooling needs change. The water in the block picks up the cold and dumps the chilled water into the reservoir which is approximately 2-liters in size. This cold water is then pumped via a D5 thru insulated tubing leading to the water block on the CPU. His system does not use the TEC to cool the CPU, but instead uses it to chill water stored in an insulated reservoir, but instead of cooling the TEC with a second loop and radiators, he cools them with air. Here he differs from most TEC chillers, both by the use of air cooling and the use of the insulated reservoir.
Again, let me state this again that this is a functioning system, not a "will this work?" concept. So while not exactly a TEC on the Reservoir (although I think that Ryan did attempt something like that at one point), it in at least in the ballpark, right?
Seriously guys, go read those linked thread...it makes for some interesting reading.
I apologize to you for my attitude, I couldn't understand why you were grilling me in the PMs between us then moving out into this thread seemed like a continuation to me, it seemed to me you just could not grasp what I was telling you, and I was beating my head against the wall trying to explain it to you over and over.
Then I see the quote below at another website and realize you understood all along?
My intentions were never to discourage anyone from attempting their own ideas that's the only way to find out for sure is experiment and discover.
My impatience came from questions from you I did not have answers to, because the only solid answers I had was from what I had actually tested, and what I had solid information on, you questioned over and over and over, (I'm specifically referencing not using a radiator and peltier together in the same loop).
This is news to anyone reading this now, not having the PM communication between us as that information is 100% confidential, but is what loaded me for bear when you entered this thread, my bad!
So this is my official apology to you and I do hope you will share any solid discoveries you my come across in your own testing.
Ryan
Quote:
I saw the thread title and was coming to post this very link but I see that I was too slow.That linked thread is a pretty good read and it covers his journey from the use of frozen gallon jugs inserted into an insulated cooler thru his current set up of using a pair of TECs to cool the water in his CPU loop.
There is also a second thread devoted strickly to the use of the peltier with an insulated reservoir (the insulated reservoir, along with insulated loop tubing is basically the "trick" to making this work). The two threads have links to each other, but the posts are not copied from one to the other. This second thread was started after the system was operational for something in the range of 8-9 months, so it is not a "hypothetical" system...it is a functioning daily driver / gaming machine with a pair of GTX 580s (these are on a separate non-peltier water cooled loop).
Link to the second thread:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/282844-29-peltier-water-cooling
The way Ryan has worked it up, he is using it strictly for cooling his CPU at temps just above the dew point (in his air conditioned office) so that he doesn't have to insulate the components...this is by design as he did not want to deal with condensation concerns.
He has two independent 50mm peltier units (each rated at Qmax of around 245W), each air cooled by a TRUE with a single fan in a pull configuration. These TECs are located just before the insulated reservoir and are sandwiched between a water block with a modified housing (to improve flow in order to reduce icing concerns) and the TRUE. One unit runs at start up and the second unit can be toggled on/off as his cooling needs change. The water in the block picks up the cold and dumps the chilled water into the reservoir which is approximately 2-liters in size. This cold water is then pumped via a D5 thru insulated tubing leading to the water block on the CPU. His system does not use the TEC to cool the CPU, but instead uses it to chill water stored in an insulated reservoir, but instead of cooling the TEC with a second loop and radiators, he cools them with air. Here he differs from most TEC chillers, both by the use of air cooling and the use of the insulated reservoir.
Again, let me state this again that this is a functioning system, not a "will this work?" concept. So while not exactly a TEC on the Reservoir (although I think that Ryan did attempt something like that at one point), it in at least in the ballpark, right?
Seriously guys, go read those linked thread...it makes for some interesting reading.
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Reply to 4Ryan6
threefingeredjack
September 2, 2013 4:00:43 AM
threefingeredjack said:
Well... this got remarkably heated for a thread about cooling systems...
Well this is Star Trek 6, "The Undiscovered Country"
I've been defending this cooling since the first idea of it, out in the original thread, in PMs, and other websites where links to this cooling are posted, and after a while it just gets old!
My hopes are that one of these days someone will duplicate this cooling and discover for themselves it works, and post a confirmation here, that would be nice as far as I am concerned.
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Reply to 4Ryan6
threefingeredjack
September 3, 2013 3:55:40 AM
4Ryan6 said:
threefingeredjack said:
Well... this got remarkably heated for a thread about cooling systems...
Well this is Star Trek 6, "The Undiscovered Country"
I've been defending this cooling since the first idea of it, out in the original thread, in PMs, and other websites where links to this cooling are posted, and after a while it just gets old!
My hopes are that one of these days someone will duplicate this cooling and discover for themselves it works, and post a confirmation here, that would be nice as far as I am concerned.
On it sir!
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Reply to threefingeredjack
threefingeredjack
September 3, 2013 4:40:32 AM
Urm... Ryan... Where on earth did you get your TEC from? I've spent the past 4 hours trawling the internet, ebay mainly but I trust nothing I've seen there so far. Purchase linky or a clue?
I've adapted my system (again), as I'm wary of condensation issues. Not sure I trust your method of carefully balancing the temperature to stay above condensation temps. That's all well and good in a dehumidified office but I basically live in a sauna... Going to build a full acrylic case, mineral oil filled and then cool the mineral oil with two TEC plates, linked to an equivalent heat sink/fan combo as yours (in this case a pair of Coolermaster Z600s) above copper rod based heat sinks into the oil itself. Couple of fans to produce a convection loop inside, and bam, around 400W+ of cooling power. Just wanted to test this all out first, got all the bits bar the TEC.
I've adapted my system (again), as I'm wary of condensation issues. Not sure I trust your method of carefully balancing the temperature to stay above condensation temps. That's all well and good in a dehumidified office but I basically live in a sauna... Going to build a full acrylic case, mineral oil filled and then cool the mineral oil with two TEC plates, linked to an equivalent heat sink/fan combo as yours (in this case a pair of Coolermaster Z600s) above copper rod based heat sinks into the oil itself. Couple of fans to produce a convection loop inside, and bam, around 400W+ of cooling power. Just wanted to test this all out first, got all the bits bar the TEC.
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Reply to threefingeredjack
Once the day has arrived for an overclocker that parts they buy for their build are researched as overclockable, and they have full intentions of overclocking right out of the box, they are officially addicted to overclocking.
This puts them in a separate category if their overclocking intentions are that their hardware is absolutely not expendable, so for those overclockers cooling is imperative for longevity.
Custom water cooling with enough radiator cooling field has much more cooling performance than the top of the line air coolers can begin to touch, but is still ambient limited.
So how many radiators would it actually take to duplicate the cooling performance of just one of the TEC/Peltier assemblies in this thread?
2?, 3?, 4?, 5?, 6?, 7?, 8?, 9?, 10?, 20?, 50?, 100?, ???
Doesn't matter how many radiators, as radiators are only ambient cooling capable, now ambient wise it does matter where the radiator is located, if it's in a freezer, or submerged in an ice slush box, it will deliver the cold it's surrounded with, but it can never ever by itself make it's own cold.
Peltiers can!
I made the Star Trek joke relating to the Star Trek 6, title, "The Undiscovered Country", but actually undiscovered was the very beginning of this peltier cooling journey because the results are no longer undiscovered but discovered, duplicateable, and 100% useable to accomplish overclocking goals that are maintained below ambient.
Seeing as how Intel for one is releasing hotter and hotter cpus sensitive to voltage increases and we overclocking addicts have to raise that voltage to get where we want, we need better cooling than what is traditionally available and this thread is about one possibility.
For those delidding cpus to reach their goals and still being disappointed with traditional cooling methods after tossing their 3 year warranty, that has to bite!
When they could have used this cooling and not delidded the cpu, something to think about.
Some hit me with the cost, not considering what this cooling can actually do, or not taking into consideration this cooling can be simply transferred to your next upgrade, it's not a one shot deal, as I just did it myself, but will your air or water cooling cut it, in the future release of CPUs, if CPUs continue being released on these levels of voltage/heat increase?
I realize this cooling is not for everyone, but there are a lot out there, it is for!
I wish the best to all of you! Ryan
This puts them in a separate category if their overclocking intentions are that their hardware is absolutely not expendable, so for those overclockers cooling is imperative for longevity.
Custom water cooling with enough radiator cooling field has much more cooling performance than the top of the line air coolers can begin to touch, but is still ambient limited.
So how many radiators would it actually take to duplicate the cooling performance of just one of the TEC/Peltier assemblies in this thread?
2?, 3?, 4?, 5?, 6?, 7?, 8?, 9?, 10?, 20?, 50?, 100?, ???
Doesn't matter how many radiators, as radiators are only ambient cooling capable, now ambient wise it does matter where the radiator is located, if it's in a freezer, or submerged in an ice slush box, it will deliver the cold it's surrounded with, but it can never ever by itself make it's own cold.
Peltiers can!
I made the Star Trek joke relating to the Star Trek 6, title, "The Undiscovered Country", but actually undiscovered was the very beginning of this peltier cooling journey because the results are no longer undiscovered but discovered, duplicateable, and 100% useable to accomplish overclocking goals that are maintained below ambient.
Seeing as how Intel for one is releasing hotter and hotter cpus sensitive to voltage increases and we overclocking addicts have to raise that voltage to get where we want, we need better cooling than what is traditionally available and this thread is about one possibility.
For those delidding cpus to reach their goals and still being disappointed with traditional cooling methods after tossing their 3 year warranty, that has to bite!
When they could have used this cooling and not delidded the cpu, something to think about.
Some hit me with the cost, not considering what this cooling can actually do, or not taking into consideration this cooling can be simply transferred to your next upgrade, it's not a one shot deal, as I just did it myself, but will your air or water cooling cut it, in the future release of CPUs, if CPUs continue being released on these levels of voltage/heat increase?
I realize this cooling is not for everyone, but there are a lot out there, it is for!
I wish the best to all of you! Ryan
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Reply to 4Ryan6
threefingeredjack said:
Urm... Ryan... Where on earth did you get your TEC from? I've spent the past 4 hours trawling the internet, ebay mainly but I trust nothing I've seen there so far. Purchase linky or a clue? I've adapted my system (again), as I'm wary of condensation issues. Not sure I trust your method of carefully balancing the temperature to stay above condensation temps. That's all well and good in a dehumidified office but I basically live in a sauna... Going to build a full acrylic case, mineral oil filled and then cool the mineral oil with two TEC plates, linked to an equivalent heat sink/fan combo as yours (in this case a pair of Coolermaster Z600s) above copper rod based heat sinks into the oil itself. Couple of fans to produce a convection loop inside, and bam, around 400W+ of cooling power. Just wanted to test this all out first, got all the bits bar the TEC.
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/2408/exp-01/245W_Potted_Peltier.html
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Reply to 4Ryan6
threefingeredjack
September 4, 2013 6:00:39 AM
4Ryan6 said:
threefingeredjack said:
Urm... Ryan... Where on earth did you get your TEC from? I've spent the past 4 hours trawling the internet, ebay mainly but I trust nothing I've seen there so far. Purchase linky or a clue? I've adapted my system (again), as I'm wary of condensation issues. Not sure I trust your method of carefully balancing the temperature to stay above condensation temps. That's all well and good in a dehumidified office but I basically live in a sauna... Going to build a full acrylic case, mineral oil filled and then cool the mineral oil with two TEC plates, linked to an equivalent heat sink/fan combo as yours (in this case a pair of Coolermaster Z600s) above copper rod based heat sinks into the oil itself. Couple of fans to produce a convection loop inside, and bam, around 400W+ of cooling power. Just wanted to test this all out first, got all the bits bar the TEC.
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/2408/exp-01/245W_Potted_Peltier.html
26amps!!!!
Ok...next question... where did you get your PSU? Also there does not appear to exist any way to automatically control that through a regular fan controller... I am beginning to see why you just run yours half cocked, bring in a second as necessary and use fans to control...
Might just do that... with an auto controller. Because... that's what I want to do. Crap on a stick though... 26 amps! I remember reading at the start about people blowing their PSUs. Now I know why. Gonna give that another read and see how to solve that.
Also: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Awesome-230W-Thermoelectric-P...
Any good or fishy?
Cheers!
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Reply to threefingeredjack
threefingeredjack said:
4Ryan6 said:
threefingeredjack said:
Urm... Ryan... Where on earth did you get your TEC from? I've spent the past 4 hours trawling the internet, ebay mainly but I trust nothing I've seen there so far. Purchase linky or a clue? I've adapted my system (again), as I'm wary of condensation issues. Not sure I trust your method of carefully balancing the temperature to stay above condensation temps. That's all well and good in a dehumidified office but I basically live in a sauna... Going to build a full acrylic case, mineral oil filled and then cool the mineral oil with two TEC plates, linked to an equivalent heat sink/fan combo as yours (in this case a pair of Coolermaster Z600s) above copper rod based heat sinks into the oil itself. Couple of fans to produce a convection loop inside, and bam, around 400W+ of cooling power. Just wanted to test this all out first, got all the bits bar the TEC.
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/2408/exp-01/245W_Potted_Peltier.html
26amps!!!!
Ok...next question... where did you get your PSU? Also there does not appear to exist any way to automatically control that through a regular fan controller... I am beginning to see why you just run yours half cocked, bring in a second as necessary and use fans to control...
Might just do that... with an auto controller. Because... that's what I want to do. Crap on a stick though... 26 amps! I remember reading at the start about people blowing their PSUs. Now I know why. Gonna give that another read and see how to solve that.
Cheers!
Power Supply wise this is not a situation that you buy barely what the power supply is capable of handling load wise, as this is a constant power draw, so you need a quality single 12v rail power supply, with one peltier at least a 50a capable P/S and 2 peltiers at least an 80a capable P/S.
I'm using a SIlverstone 1000w 80a single 12v rail P/S, I'd recommend Silverstone, Corsair, SeaSonic, Enermax, or PCP&C.
Even though the peltier is spec'd at 26a that's at the spec'd 15.4v DC, since you'll only be feeding the peltier 12v DC it will be drawing more like 22a instead of 26a, and it actually draws 200w vs the rated 245w as I have tested that draw from the wall.
You get your peltier power from either the 8 pin motherboard connector or the 6 pin PCI-E cabling connector, (8 pin connector is best for 2 peltiers), as they are 14guage wires, I used 2 yellow positive 12v together soldered to a 12guage bridging wire, (bridging meaning the wire connecting the power supply to the peltier itself), positive to feed the peltier positive or red side, I use 2 black negative soldered together to the 12guage negative bridging wire to the peltier negative or Black side lead.
Do not use the power supplies 4pin Molex cabling it is 18guage wire and cannot support the amperage load, they will burn up on you!
OK hopefully this will get you past the initial shock therapy!
But now you're beginning to see what it takes to make this all work.
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Reply to 4Ryan6
threefingeredjack
September 5, 2013 2:10:40 AM
Why do I need a PSU larger than the rated amp draw? I'm not intended to use the PSU to power anything else besides the peltiers. I was thinking 30A each? Do these things genuinely draw less amps as they receive less voltage? I'm a total novice when it comes to electronics but that flies in the face of everything I understand. I can see that you'd need a higher amperage handling capability if you were using peltiers on a lower voltage and therefore they drew more amps?
1000W PSUs are EXPENSIVE things. This project was supposed to result in a cheap alternative to conventional cooling methods... now I might have to auction off a kidney.
And the peltier I found on Ebay? Any good?
1000W PSUs are EXPENSIVE things. This project was supposed to result in a cheap alternative to conventional cooling methods... now I might have to auction off a kidney.
And the peltier I found on Ebay? Any good?
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Reply to threefingeredjack
threefingeredjack said:
Why do I need a PSU larger than the rated amp draw? I'm not intended to use the PSU to power anything else besides the peltiers. I was thinking 30A each? Do these things genuinely draw less amps as they receive less voltage? I'm a total novice when it comes to electronics but that flies in the face of everything I understand. I can see that you'd need a higher amperage handling capability if you were using peltiers on a lower voltage and therefore they drew more amps? 1000W PSUs are EXPENSIVE things. This project was supposed to result in a cheap alternative to conventional cooling methods... now I might have to auction off a kidney.
And the peltier I found on Ebay? Any good?
I didn't say you had to have a 1000w power supply, I said that's what I am running, it was shelved from past computer upgrades, in my situation I did not buy the power supply just to run the peltiers, it was left over from an earlier SLI setup complete machine upgrade.
My amperage load suggestions are to keep you on the safe side and to keep your power supply from running wide open cooling wise, my power supply never kicks into the high cooling range even with both peltiers running, you can take a chance and do whatever you think will work and save that kidney, just let me know what happens.
I never said this cooling was a cheap investment, just that it 100% works, even though it could be much cheaper than some of the traditional radiator water cooling setups I have seen, with massive setups running 4 quad rads with 32 high static pressure 120mm Delta fans in a push/pull configuration, the fans alone were over $1,000.00 investment and still couldn't do any better than ambient, but it was quite impressive.
It's not a cheap alternative it is a below ambient alternative, if you duplicate my setup exactly from scratch having not one single part shelved to work with, you're looking at close to a $1,000.00 of cooling hardware, and that does not include a case to house it all, but when it's compared to some extreme radiator water cooling ambient setups that exceed $2,000.00, it is by far cheaper than that.
Scroll down to BDW88s Setup, what do you think he has invested in his traditional radiator cooling and still at ambient, or what do you think this traditional radiator setup costs and also still at the mercy of ambient?
Insane builds?
To the mass majority yes!
But to the individual No!
It would be nice to see what those guys would have done with the information in this thread to be able to run below ambient at less money than they had invested in their setups.
Just something to ponder.
Now regarding;
Quote:
Do these things genuinely draw less amps as they receive less voltage? I'm a total novice when it comes to electronics but that flies in the face of everything I understand. I can see that you'd need a higher amperage handling capability if you were using peltiers on a lower voltage and therefore they drew more amps? I think the amperage rating of the peltiers are spec'd to stay well on the safe side, here are the actual raw facts of my peltiers specs 15.4v 245w 26a.
It is receiving an actual 12v to power it (a solid fact) and it is using 200w increased wall load (also a solid fact), so calculated out, it is drawing an actual 16.9a, I had estimated 20a per peltier to stay on the safe side (because at this time I do not have a direct way to measure the actual amperage draw it is pulling), and that would be a minimum amperage target, per peltier, if the same spec'd peltier is used.
So acquiring a single 12v rail power supply with more than needed amperage capability is just the smart thing to do, does it have to be 1000w, No, but for 2 peltiers at least a 60a handling capability.
Here's just one suggestion it is a single 12v rail 62a power supply and Seasonic is a quality product.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151107
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Reply to 4Ryan6
threefingeredjack
September 5, 2013 2:59:49 PM
4Ryan6 said:
threefingeredjack said:
Why do I need a PSU larger than the rated amp draw? I'm not intended to use the PSU to power anything else besides the peltiers. I was thinking 30A each? Do these things genuinely draw less amps as they receive less voltage? I'm a total novice when it comes to electronics but that flies in the face of everything I understand. I can see that you'd need a higher amperage handling capability if you were using peltiers on a lower voltage and therefore they drew more amps? 1000W PSUs are EXPENSIVE things. This project was supposed to result in a cheap alternative to conventional cooling methods... now I might have to auction off a kidney.
And the peltier I found on Ebay? Any good?
I didn't say you had to have a 1000w power supply, I said that's what I am running, it was shelved from past computer upgrades, in my situation I did not buy the power supply just to run the peltiers, it was left over from an earlier SLI setup complete machine upgrade.
My amperage load suggestions are to keep you on the safe side and to keep your power supply from running wide open cooling wise, my power supply never kicks into the high cooling range even with both peltiers running, you can take a chance and do whatever you think will work and save that kidney, just let me know what happens.
I never said this cooling was a cheap investment, just that it 100% works, even though it could be much cheaper than some of the traditional radiator water cooling setups I have seen, with massive setups running 4 quad rads with 32 high static pressure 120mm Delta fans in a push/pull configuration, the fans alone were over $1,000.00 investment and still couldn't do any better than ambient, but it was quite impressive.
It's not a cheap alternative it is a below ambient alternative, if you duplicate my setup exactly from scratch having not one single part shelved to work with, you're looking at close to a $1,000.00 of cooling hardware, and that does not include a case to house it all, but when it's compared to some extreme radiator water cooling ambient setups that exceed $2,000.00, it is by far cheaper than that.
Scroll down to BDW88s Setup, what do you think he has invested in his traditional radiator cooling and still at ambient, or what do you think this traditional radiator setup costs and also still at the mercy of ambient?
Insane builds?
To the mass majority yes!
But to the individual No!
It would be nice to see what those guys would have done with the information in this thread to be able to run below ambient at less money than they had invested in their setups.
Just something to ponder.
Now regarding;
Quote:
Do these things genuinely draw less amps as they receive less voltage? I'm a total novice when it comes to electronics but that flies in the face of everything I understand. I can see that you'd need a higher amperage handling capability if you were using peltiers on a lower voltage and therefore they drew more amps? I think the amperage rating of the peltiers are spec'd to stay well on the safe side, here are the actual raw facts of my peltiers specs 15.4v 245w 26a.
It is receiving an actual 12v to power it (a solid fact) and it is using 200w increased wall load (also a solid fact), so calculated out, it is drawing an actual 16.9a, I had estimated 20a per peltier to stay on the safe side (because at this time I do not have a direct way to measure the actual amperage draw it is pulling), and that would be a minimum amperage target, per peltier, if the same spec'd peltier is used.
So acquiring a single 12v rail power supply with more than needed amperage capability is just the smart thing to do, does it have to be 1000w, No, but for 2 peltiers at least a 60a handling capability.
Here's just one suggestion it is a single 12v rail 62a power supply and Seasonic is a quality product.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151107
Cool. All good stuff! I don't doubt (nor have doubted at any point) the superiority of TEC cooling over water, as like you say, the best any given water cooled system could hope to attain, is ambient temps. How much is an air conditioner these days?
I get the impression you live in the states... which is a shame as I was going to ask if I could pay a visit and take a look at your system/bring an ammeter round to measure the draw...
I've asked a few TEC sellers about this peculiar amp/volt relationship TECs appear to have, hopefully I can get back to you with a decent reason for it. Meanwhile!
Did you take a look at the peltier I found on ebay and what are your thoughts?
Thisun
And;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-30A-DC-Motor-Speed-Contro...
What do you think?
TEC plate controller for PC? No point running a peltier at full whack for no reason... sometimes you might only want half power... now as soon as I work out how to make it turn the fans up at the same time I think I'll be on to something. -
Reply to threefingeredjack
threefingeredjack said:
Cool. All good stuff! I don't doubt (nor have doubted at any point) the superiority of TEC cooling over water, as like you say, the best any given water cooled system could hope to attain, is ambient temps. How much is an air conditioner these days? I get the impression you live in the states... which is a shame as I was going to ask if I could pay a visit and take a look at your system/bring an ammeter round to measure the draw...
I've asked a few TEC sellers about this peculiar amp/volt relationship TECs appear to have, hopefully I can get back to you with a decent reason for it. Meanwhile!
Did you take a look at the peltier I found on ebay and what are your thoughts?
Thisun
And;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-30A-DC-Motor-Speed-Contro...
What do you think?
TEC plate controller for PC? No point running a peltier at full whack for no reason... sometimes you might only want half power... now as soon as I work out how to make it turn the fans up at the same time I think I'll be on to something. I do live in the states in South Carolina, the original peltier link did not work, but this one does and that peltier is fine and a good price too.
As to whether the motor voltage controller will work? IDK
I control the cold output with the TRUEs cooling fan, I do not allow my computer to stay on all the time, only when I use it, so it's only drawing power to run the peltier or peltiers when it's running, so I do not need the voltage controller.
For your information gathering, my reservoir is not insulated to the point of long term cold retention, it's insulated for short term cold retention, meaning after it's been turned off for 12 hours the water temperature inside the reservoir is still below, but very close to ambient.
The reason for this is it avoids any cold booting problems and once the machine is powered the water temperature begins to drop, and continues to drop until it reaches and equalization point usually 7c ~ 8c below ambient room temperature.
A traditional radiator loop starts at ambient and increases heat in the above ambient zone until it reaches an equalization point above ambient, whereas mine starts close to the same but goes in the opposite direction to below ambient.
In the beginning I did play with controlling the voltage, but it caused the peltier to stall, getting what you can use from the peltier constantly, will require a constant voltage, at least in the way I am using the peltiers output, keeping it in a range of constant cold output.
I know some of this doesn't make any logical sense, the peltier is what it is, and sometimes reacts peculiarly, but you can milk what you want from it and enjoy the benefits, as long as you discover how to get what you want from it, without it stalling.
Once I discovered it's cold output could be controlled with the cooling fan on the Thermalright TRUE, there was no further reason to experiment with voltage regulation, so if you are going that route, please share what you discover.
-
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