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Ping Bill Hilton...Thanks!

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Anonymous
December 1, 2004 9:08:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Bill,

Thank you for your input/use of on the Epson 4000.
I bought one last week and couldn't be happier!
Truly incredible panorama on my first attempt.

I'm having a little trouble with neutral B&W...but I know this is tricky
with pigment inks.

Anyway...Thanks.

BTW... If anyone is looking for the 4000 (they're back-ordered most
places), www.digitalartsupplies.com has them in stock right now, and they
are a top-notch (though small) outfit here in Southern Cal.

-Mark

More about : ping bill hilton

Anonymous
December 2, 2004 8:46:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

>From: "Mark²"
>
>Bill,
>
>Thank you for your input/use of on the Epson 4000.
>I bought one last week and couldn't be happier!

Hi Mark, good choice, glad to help out ...

>I'm having a little trouble with neutral B&W...but I know this is tricky
>with pigment inks.

I like the results on the Velvet - Fine Art paper with B/W but in general I
agree, it's tough to get smooth gradients and completely neutral grayscale
using all the inks. If you figure this out, short of a custom profile or RIP,
let me know :) 

I have a test pattern provided by Apple computer and digital guru Bill Atkinson
that has images with many of the colors I'm trying to print accurately and
vividly (aspen yellows, red rocks, blue skies, etc) and also has gradients for
the main colors and a large gradient from black to white. Printing this
pattern on various papers with the provided ICC profiles is a real eye-opener.
For example, one of the 3rd party papers stays white a long time (on the
gradient), abruptly shifts to grey with a slight green cast, and after the
midtones shifts to a slight magenta cast, then goes solid black far too early.
So you have a compressed tonal range with this profile/paper with two different
color casts ... and on the color gradients it's worse, going to near-solid
black on the yellow gradient before returning to the color. Yuck.

Two of the most expensive non-Epson papers I tried (Arches Infinity and
Hahnemuehle Photo Rag) also have slight color casts in the grey scale gradient
using the vendor-supplied 4000 ICC profiles, so it's a real problem. Generally
the Epson profiles and Epson papers did well but there isn't an Epson-supported
17x22" sheet fine art paper yet.

Here's a link to a smaller version of Bill's test pattern, turned on its side
and reduced in size for space ... the actual greyscale gradient is much
smoother since the jpeg compression blocked this one up a bit, but you can see
the basic concept well enough to make your own easily. Printing something like
this pattern (or one you make yourself) on each paper with various settings and
profiles provides excellent feedback on how good or bad the profile is. Then
you can build a custom curve in Photoshop to remove the slight casts and apply
this curve to your files when you print on that paper.

http://members.aol.com/bhilton665/Bill-Test-Page.jpg You might be able to find
the full version of this pattern on Bill's home page at Apple ... I got it when
I took a workshop with him at Calypso Labs.

Bill
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 8:46:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Bill Hilton" <bhilton665@aol.comedy> wrote in message
news:20041202124629.06621.00001184@mb-m15.aol.com...
> >From: "Mark²"
> >
> >Bill,
> >
> >Thank you for your input/use of on the Epson 4000.
> >I bought one last week and couldn't be happier!
>
> Hi Mark, good choice, glad to help out ...
>
> >I'm having a little trouble with neutral B&W...but I know this is tricky
> >with pigment inks.
>
> I like the results on the Velvet - Fine Art paper with B/W but in general
I
> agree, it's tough to get smooth gradients and completely neutral grayscale
> using all the inks. If you figure this out, short of a custom profile or
RIP,
> let me know :) 
>
> I have a test pattern provided by Apple computer and digital guru Bill
Atkinson
> that has images with many of the colors I'm trying to print accurately and
> vividly (aspen yellows, red rocks, blue skies, etc) and also has gradients
for
> the main colors and a large gradient from black to white. Printing this
> pattern on various papers with the provided ICC profiles is a real
eye-opener.
> For example, one of the 3rd party papers stays white a long time (on the
> gradient), abruptly shifts to grey with a slight green cast, and after the
> midtones shifts to a slight magenta cast, then goes solid black far too
early.
> So you have a compressed tonal range with this profile/paper with two
different
> color casts ... and on the color gradients it's worse, going to near-solid
> black on the yellow gradient before returning to the color. Yuck.
>
> Two of the most expensive non-Epson papers I tried (Arches Infinity and
> Hahnemuehle Photo Rag) also have slight color casts in the grey scale
gradient
> using the vendor-supplied 4000 ICC profiles, so it's a real problem.
Generally
> the Epson profiles and Epson papers did well but there isn't an
Epson-supported
> 17x22" sheet fine art paper yet.
>
> Here's a link to a smaller version of Bill's test pattern, turned on its
side
> and reduced in size for space ... the actual greyscale gradient is much
> smoother since the jpeg compression blocked this one up a bit, but you can
see
> the basic concept well enough to make your own easily. Printing something
like
> this pattern (or one you make yourself) on each paper with various
settings and
> profiles provides excellent feedback on how good or bad the profile is.
Then
> you can build a custom curve in Photoshop to remove the slight casts and
apply
> this curve to your files when you print on that paper.
>
> http://members.aol.com/bhilton665/Bill-Test-Page.jpg You might be able to
find
> the full version of this pattern on Bill's home page at Apple ... I got it
when
> I took a workshop with him at Calypso Labs.
>
> Bill

Thank you again for more great info.
I've been trying various papers including Hahnemuehle Photo Rag 308. I
wasn't impressed at first, but think this was partially due to the nature of
my image. I love the texture and look of the paper itself, and will be
working to tweak things for it's successful use.

I'm stilling learning about this whole RIP concept, and frankly don't know
squat.
Funny thing, too, because I bought the 4000 with RIP software (partially due
to simple availability...and partially due to thinking I might be glad for
it in the future as I get more up to speed). I'm not afraid to dig in
pretty deeply here, but I'm nothing even remotely resembling an
expert...especially with the gamut issues of ultrachromes, etc. If you know
of a primer on the whole RIP idea, I'd love to read up. I see tons of
references to it, but no nuts-and-bolts break-downs.

I've got a ton of B&W restorations I'll be working on, so any info on that
is of great interest to me. If I discover any "magic B&W formulas," I'll
post them here. :)  In the mean-time, I'll look forward to any tidbits I
can gather from other helpful souls such as yourself.

-Mark
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 8:50:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

>From: "Mark²" mjmorgan(lowesteven number here)@cox..net

>I'm stilling learning about this whole RIP concept, and frankly don't know
>squat. Funny thing, too, because I bought the 4000 with RIP software

Hey Mark, if you got the RIP you are ahead of me! I'm trying to gut it out
with the ICC profiles and Photoshop since the Epson Pro models are supposedly
easier to profile and stable enough that the profiles will do the job since the
printer supposedly doesn't "drift" but I have to say I was disappointed in the
ICC profiles provided by Hahnemuehle (Photo Rag), Arches (Infinity) and Moab
for Entrada ... none are as accurate and neutral as the Epson profiles for the
Epson papers ... you'd think a company selling paper for $6-8 a sheet (17x22"
fine art paper) would invest in building a decent fricking profile :) 

> If you know of a primer on the whole RIP idea, I'd love to
> read up.

Reichmann has some info on the RIP he uses (ColorByte ImagePrint) with his
4000, not sure if it's the same RIP you bought (so the interface might be
different) but some good info on RIPs in general ...
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/software/imag...

>In the mean-time, I'll look forward to any tidbits I
>can gather from other helpful souls such as yourself.

Now that you are RIPped you are playing by different rules and on your own :) 
Good luck.

Bill
Anonymous
December 4, 2004 12:46:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Bill Hilton" <bhilton665@aol.comedy> wrote in message
news:20041203125050.07924.00001812@mb-m07.aol.com...
> >From: "Mark²" mjmorgan(lowesteven number here)@cox..net
>
> >I'm stilling learning about this whole RIP concept, and frankly don't
know
> >squat. Funny thing, too, because I bought the 4000 with RIP software
>
> Hey Mark, if you got the RIP you are ahead of me! I'm trying to gut it
out
> with the ICC profiles and Photoshop since the Epson Pro models are
supposedly
> easier to profile and stable enough that the profiles will do the job
since the
> printer supposedly doesn't "drift" but I have to say I was disappointed in
the
> ICC profiles provided by Hahnemuehle (Photo Rag), Arches (Infinity) and
Moab
> for Entrada ... none are as accurate and neutral as the Epson profiles for
the
> Epson papers ... you'd think a company selling paper for $6-8 a sheet
(17x22"
> fine art paper) would invest in building a decent fricking profile :) 
>
> > If you know of a primer on the whole RIP idea, I'd love to
> > read up.
>
> Reichmann has some info on the RIP he uses (ColorByte ImagePrint) with his
> 4000, not sure if it's the same RIP you bought (so the interface might be
> different) but some good info on RIPs in general ...
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/software/imag...
>
> >In the mean-time, I'll look forward to any tidbits I
> >can gather from other helpful souls such as yourself.
>
> Now that you are RIPped you are playing by different rules and on your own
:) 
> Good luck.

Oh no! Not that!
Well you can feel free to sign off, but I'm not even using it at present,
since I frankly don't know how to (duh). Thank you for your help.
!