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I need a new rig, a very good one

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February 11, 2013 8:36:33 AM

Hi I need a very good rig to play TERA online like this:
- at 2560 x 1440
- at 60 fps
- without any fps drops, even in environments with 200 + animated objects
The game is made with Unreal 3 graphic engine

What should I get?
Which CPU?
Which motherboard?
Which GPU (s)?
Which SSD (s)?
Which RAMs?
Which Power supply needed?
Which case?

I have a high budget but don't want to totally waste money
I don't want to buy a PC that is already old in 6 months

More about : rig good

a c 125 K Overclocking
February 14, 2013 2:18:33 PM

Hi,

From what I've read online TERA doesn't look like a very demanding game but your resolution is high, below are a few suggestions:

Intel Core i5-3570K 3.40GHz

Asus P8Z77-V Intel Z77

MSI HD 7950 Twin Frozr III OC V2 (Overkill for TERA online, but not for more demanding games at your resolution)

Samsung 128GB SSD 840 PRO

Samsung Green (MV-3V4G3D/US) 8GB (2x4GB)

Seasonic X-Series 850w '80 Plus Gold' Modular Power Supply (Ready for future upgrades like crossfire ETC..)

Corsair Graphite 600T Midi Tower Case

It's more than you need for TERA online but it will play games just fine in 6 months time aswell.
a c 125 K Overclocking
February 15, 2013 6:33:08 AM

Quote:
^ That is a terrible suggestion.

OP, buy what you need. You seriously should not be recommended a build to play BF3, if all you are playing is farmville. Buy what you need, when you need it, that's the beauty of building a PC. People act like you can't upgrade a computer at all or something around here.

The GTX 460 is an older gen card that you can find on ebay, amazon, etc, for really cheap, that is very powerful and will manhandle Tera 2 and handle modern games very well too. You can find them around $60-80, I'd recommend the 768mb for your needs but a 1GB model which isn't any more expensive.

The Asus P8Z77-V is an overpriced board, don't buy that lol. The UD3H is a superior board for much less (to give perspective, the world overclock record is done on the UD3H). However there are plenty of cheaper boards that will do the job just fine too. I would not especially recommend the Asus P8Z77-V, especially when you can get the UD5H around the same price.

The UD3H is really the most you should spend on a board (unless the UD5H or Extreme6 is cheaper, which can happen at times, for example I got my Ud5H for $30 cheaper than my UD3H). Avoid the Extreme4 unless it's $30 cheaper then the UD3H or $20 cheaper than the P8Z77-V LK.

Are you close to a microcenter? That really changes the equation on everything. If you are close to one, they have the Asus P8Z77-V LK, an average board, at an absolutely amazing price (will handle your needs more than well enough, just not great for the highest of overclocks compared to the UD3H or higher end boards). Biostar boards are great in general too, for budget boards, if you aren't by microcenter.

The 840 PRO is a little expensive, I'd recommend you go for a $85 830 instead from amazon. The more storage you need, the lower quality storage you can get - on my gaming computer, I've used less than 50gb in 3 years so I just have a $52 X25-M G2 on it (I actually slightly regret buying that over the Samsung 830 64GB for $59 but oh well).

You should just get 2x2gb of RAM. RAM is cheap and prices will only keep falling as DDR4 isn't coming too soon. Games are written to be compatible in 32 bit environments so you will never use more than 4gb for a gaming/general usage build. People might say "well ram is cheap', but an extra $20 can get you a much better SSD, some really high end thermal paste, you could give it to a homeless guy... or get higher quality 2x2gb ram (enough that you'd notice a performance difference).

Corsair Graphite is a ridiculously expensive case for a first build. The NZXT Source 210 is $17 at Microcenter, and even at $40 I'd recommend it over most cases, unless you can find a Corsair Carbide 300R for under $50. The NZXT Phantom for $64 at microcenter right now is the best deal you'll find on a high end case. The Source 210 is really a great value right now, you can't really beat it even for $40. This is coming from someone who's used the Antecs, Corsairs, etc cases, by the way.

Recommending a 850w modular power supply for a first time build, for Tera, is absolutely stupid advice. You don't need a modular supply unless you are a huge enthusiast, and even with 10 case fans, a fan controller, 5 thermal diodes, an SSD put behind my motherboard panel, and removed my HDD drive cages (so i cant hide wires behind it), I've still managed a larger than average power supply to be hidden from view.

Get the cheapest, high quality 350w+, or more specifically, 12v@28a+, power supply, that you can find. It's not about the power, it's about the quality of the power supply. Any highly overclocked, single GPU system will be very hard pressed to ever use more than what a quality 300w power supply could supply, unless maybe it was a Fermi GPU and AMD CPU.



OP said he/she has a high budget so I included components that are more than is needed for TERA, however if he wants to play any other games that are more demanding he will be able to with my suggested setup.

A GTX460 will REALLY struggle at 2560 x 1440 with most modern games, why would you suggest something that would need upgrading straight away? OP said "I don't want to buy a PC that is already old in 6 months" so I don't think he/she wants to be upgrading straight away.

The Asus P8Z77-V isn't overpriced where I live, not everyone lives in America.....

The Sammy 840 pro is an awesome drive and is up there with the best of them, yes its overkill but again I'll point out the OP said the budget is high....It's not like I suggested a Raid array with with high capacity SSD's or something ridiculous.

Where I live RAM prices are actually rising and will continue to do so for quite some time. 8GB is atleast a bit more future proof and at £36 is hardly breaking the bank.

My recommended PSU is based on the fact OP could upgrade in the future if he/she wanted too, I don't see why that's "absolutely stupid"...
Modular PSU's make cables management easier, I don't know why you would try and argue that.

The Graphite case is an awesome case and if OP was on a tight budget I would have recommended something else, maybe you didn't read the OP...

Yeah get a cheap 350W PSU... great advice :whistle: 
Related resources
February 15, 2013 5:51:41 PM

Belial88 The OP clearly states he does not wan't a rig that will be old in 6 months. What your suggesting would make his rig old a couple of years ago.
a c 125 K Overclocking
February 15, 2013 5:52:36 PM

Quote:
OP said they have a high budget because they likely do not know what to look for. Don't be misleading to someone who clearly needs help. If he wants to spend that much, that's fine, but it's apparent they don't understand that Tera doesn't need that much power.

A GTX 460 won't 'really struggle' in most modern games, it will handle them fine except at the higher graphics settings. If all he does is play Tera Online and other old games, there's no reason for anything more. It's not about 'he'll have to upgrade immediately' it's about the fact that he can buy a better CPU, a better motherboard, better SSD, with the money instead. And that will affect his in-game performance more than a better GPU, for Tera Online.

Computer parts are fungible. If he has to upgrade in a week, that's fine... list the GPU on ebay/craigslist/whatever, and then buy a new one. People make it seem like upgrading a computer is so difficult around here.... It's the whole point of building a computer.

The issue is that you got a limited budget - let's say $1000. If you spend more on a GPU that won't benefit your current needs than a cheaper GPU, then you are sacrificing the quality of other components, like your CPU, which WILL affect your current needs, as well as future ones.

P8Z77-V is definitely overpriced. There is no reason for the OP to buy that over an LK. You are being ridiculous. The quality of the board is also lower than the cheaper UD3H. I really doubt that the OP needs 6 SATA ports.

Samsung 840 Pro is an amazing drive, but in my experience it wasn't noticeable over the 830, and there are faster drives if you really want a high quality drive. If the OP wants to spend more money though, there's better places to do it.

8GB of RAM is not future proof. Games are written to be compatible for 32 bit environments, they will continue to be like that for a long time, you are only seeing games that are 64bit only later this year and they won't even use more than 4GB. Crysis 3, Battlefield 3, none of these games use more than 4GB of RAM at all. If you are gaming, you do not need more than 2x2GB of RAM. The extra $20-30 cost of getting 4GB of RAM, can be better put somewhere else, that would actually do something for him.

That $20-30 spent on 8gb of ram, could instead be spent on a better SSD - the 840 PRO vs the 830, even. You could spend it on a better GPU - the 470 instead of the 460. But not on 8gb of ram. You would literally feel the same performance difference if you just burned the money instead. It's not going to do anything. So don't bother wasting your money, it is not any more future proof.

If, in the future, OP needs 8gb of RAM, then you buy 8GB of RAM. It's not hard to swap out ram, or buy another 2x2gb kit.

Where do you live that RAM prices are rising, because I do not believe you. You can order online, anywhere.

Your recommended PSU is absurd. Even the most extreme builders, like myself, very rarely use SLI or Crossfire because single card solutions are much better. Modular is expensive, and for people who have a very specialized expertise, I seriously doubt that the OP cares if his cable management is 100% perfect and that he's having trouble fitting cables in a computer with very few accessories.

If he had 8 case fans and a fan controller and 5 thermal controllers, and a window into his case, like I do, maybe, maybe a modular PSU could be considered, but even then, I'd rather buy an i7 over an i5, a better GPU, some 2400mhz RAM, another SSD, than a modular PSU.

I said get the cheapest, high quality 350w+ psu. Which is good advice. Single GPU systems simply don't use more than 300w. Only maybe an AMD FX 8350 + Fermi with overclocks surpass that, but clearly the OP is not going to be getting an FX.


I'm not being misleading so please don't accuse me of being so, I stated in my first post that my suggestions were more than was needed for TERA online, I can't be any clearer.

Like I said before my suggested setup would allow the OP to play other games aswell if he/she desired (which is quite likely, I don't know anyone that has brought an entire PC from the ground up just for one game).

Yes a GTX460 does struggle at high resolutions like 2560 x 1440, even the 1GB version, the review below tested at 2560 x 1600 so slightly more demanding than the OP's resolution but even so it's clear to see the GTX460 gets murdered in most modern games: http://www.anandtech.com/show/3809/nvidias-geforce-gtx-...

I agree with you that upgrading a PC is very easy but what's the point in buying PC components for a new build that will need upgrading straight away? (genuine question, not rhetorical).

Nothing wrong with the UD3H, though I see nothing wrong with the Asus board I suggested either and have read good things about it, in the UK I found the Asus board for slightly less so that's why I suggested it.

The price difference between 4 and 8GB of RAM is so small that I really don't see a reason to choose only 4GB, what about if the OP does other things with his/her PC?
Here's where I got my info about memory prices rising: http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18487...

Yes single card solutions are better but if you want CF/SLI performance out of a single card then that single card will use alot of power...
A quality power supply like the one I suggested will last along time and will see the OP through many upgrades, it also allows for overclocking and upgrades, if you look at the power consumption figures in the review I posted you'll see that a 350W PSU would only just be enough and so wouldn't allow for future expansion or overclocking.

Anyway we don't know the OP's exact budget so I listed high quality parts and I've already said are overkill for just TERA Online, but atleast it'll last 6 months without needing an upgrade (like the OP wants) and will allow him/her to play other modern and more demanding games.
a c 125 K Overclocking
February 16, 2013 7:00:12 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Belial88 The OP clearly states he does not wan't a rig that will be old in 6 months. What your suggesting would make his rig old a couple of years ago.


The i5 3570K, the Phenom X4, the i3... these are all very capable, strong CPUs. They will not be outdated in 6 months, and they will most likely not be outdated even in 4 years. At the same time, an i7 is going to be outdated just around the same time period as an i3, in 5-10 years depending on usage, just because of how technology and software works.

The builds recommended will hardly be outdated in 6 months, please, no hyperbole. Hardware is far beyond software, that's the issue. Quadcore CPUs have been around for a while, yet we still do not have mainstream quadcores, and we are barely just seeing games that utilize 4 cores. Most new games still do not utilize 4 cores.

So by the time you have games that utilize quadcore, and really need quadcore, by then we'll be on the Skylate or Skymont, a good 5+ years from now.

I've owned a Phenom X4, I've owned an i5, an i3, and an i7. I know what these computers are capable of, and I can tell you that the i7 doesn't do even multi-threaded applications much more than 20% for me, and much less than 5% in most games and applications. The Phenom x4, which is 1/3rd the price of an i5 build, is a good 60-80% of the performance of an i5 in most applications.

now, for certain tasks, the i7 is worth the extra cost for me. When I do video editing, it really shines, and only when I'm editing some rather large home movies that are just 5 hours of raw footage. Otherwise, the i5 is generally strong enough, and even the Phenom X4 is enough for me to do some quick video edits, gaming, and even streaming.

You are ludicrous to think anything I'm suggesting is outdated. An Ivy bridge 3570k is hardly outdated a 'few years ago'. PSC ram that is capable of 2400mhz is hardly outdated, it's higher performing than RAM owned by 95% of the people on this forum. The GTX 470 is just as strong as the oft-recommended 7850, and the GTX 460 is still strong enough for a game like Tera Online, easily.

OP is playing an outdated game. Unless he has an unlimited budget, he will see a bigger performance boost if he buys a budget graphics card that is still enough to manhandle Tera Online, and then the rest of his budget into a stronger SSD and a stronger CPU, which will realize into a larger performance boost for his game, then if he buys an overkill GPU, and a weaker CPU/SSD that will make his game perform worse.

3570K + 460 + Sata III ssd
will outperform
Phenom X4 + 660TI + Sata II SSD

These are the kinds of choices you face when building a computer. If the OP has more money, he can get an i7 3770k, GTX 460, and high end Sata II SSD, maybe some faster RAM, a better case, a better cooler for a bigger overclock (that's really the biggest thing he needs, better cooling, good thermal paste...).

I've built half a dozen computers in the last year, I know what I'm talking about. I've reviewed components for companies. I know what is powerful enough, and what isn't.

Quote:
Like I said before my suggested setup would allow the OP to play other games aswell if he/she desired (which is quite likely, I don't know anyone that has brought an entire PC from the ground up just for one game).


If the OP has other needs, he needs to suggest them. Otherwise, he needs to understand that trying to build for vague, undescript 'future' games, is only going to be to the sacrifice of his current needs. Would you rather get some awesome GPU that won't do anything for any game you play, or an awesome case? And so on.

He also said he doesn't want to waste money, so I've made him a very, very powerful computer, that will handle his game just fine. Spending anything more than what I've recommended, would be overkill for his current needs and a 'waste of money', unless he has needs he isn't talking about (like he plays Crysis 3 or something).

Quote:

Yes a GTX460 does struggle at high resolutions like 2560 x 1440, even the 1GB version, the review below tested at 2560 x 1600 so slightly more demanding than the OP's resolution but even so it's clear to see the GTX460 gets murdered in most modern games: http://www.anandtech.com/show/3809 [...] 200-king/6


Crysis Warhead is not an accurate comparison to make with Tera Online, you got to be joking.

GTX 460 will handle modern games at 1080 just fine. At 1440, it will definitely have to play on Medium or High instead. If the OP plays Crysis Warhead, then he'll need a different graphics card. But if he just plays Tera Online, the 460 is more than enough. And on 1440, even.

Meanwhile, his budget is better spent on his CPU, SSD, and cooling.

There's also the GTX 470, a very strong GPU he can find around $100-120. Again, overkill.

Quote:
I agree with you that upgrading a PC is very easy but what's the point in buying PC components for a new build that will need upgrading straight away? (genuine question, not rhetorical).


Unless the OP plans to quit Tera Online within a year, it won't be an 'upgrade straight away'. The GTX 460 is a very capable GPU, it will manhandle Tera Online, and should do fine for all but the most demanding, current games (BF3, Crysis, etc) at 1440.

If he decides in a year or few or whenever he decides to quit Tera, that he wants more, it's very, very easy to sell the GTX 460 on ebay and get a stronger one. Get your money worth out of the GTX 460 for the job done, and get a much-reduced in price 7950 when it's only $150-200 INSTEAD OF PAYING $300 FOR IT!

Like jesus christ dude. A $300 GPU is not going to be any better than a $60 GPU for Tera Online. Why would he spend $300 on a GPU when it isn't going to be used for anything? That is such a bad idea.

That $300, is better spent on an i7, 2 x SSDs in RAID, high end 2800mhz RAM. Those will actually give him a performance boost in Tera Online, moreso than a 7950 over a GTX 460. And yea, buying an i7 over an i5 is a huge waste of $100, but it'll be a much larger performance boost for OP.

He could also get some really good cooling instead. If he wants to blow $240, this is where I recommend he puts it - Get a high end closed loop or big air on sale for $60, get some high end thermal paste like Coollaboratory Liquid Ultra $20, get some TY-140's x 3 for his heatsinks, $60, then buy a second samsung 830 128gb for RAID.

Then buy a steak. And then donate some money to breast cancer research.

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Nothing wrong with the UD3H, though I see nothing wrong with the Asus board I suggested either and have read good things about it, in the UK I found the Asus board for slightly less so that's why I suggested it.


You see nothing wrong with the Asus board because you read good reviews from sites that don't do proper reviews and remove the VRM heatsinks and you haven't used many motherboards.

The Asus P8Z77-V Pro offers basically nothing over the P8Z77-V LK besides a few more SATA and USB ports, and a PCIe 2.0 lane. Just get the LK, it's already a premium board. In quality, it's lower than the UD3H and UD5H, which are some of the best mid-range boards around that offer high range quality.

It's all about the quality of the VRM on a motherboard, and the P8Z77-V Pro doesn't offer anything special. The UD3H offers cleaner power delivery, and better performance, meaning a lower vcore, less LLC, and less heat. In reality the Asus boards are just fine, but why would you buy them over the superior Gigabyte boards.

And recommending the Pros is quite irresponsible. It just has a few more slots over the P8Z77-V LK. Why would you recommend a high end board like that. Unless you need a ton of SATA ports, there's no reason to get a board other than the UD3H/P8Z77-LK/Extreme4/TZ77XE4/G45.

OP really needs to say if he's by a microcenter or not. Microcenter does have the P8Z77-V LK for a really good price, $59. At that price, it's a great deal.

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he price difference between 4 and 8GB of RAM is so small that I really don't see a reason to choose only 4GB, what about if the OP does other things with his/her PC?
Here's where I got my info about memory prices rising: http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/s [...] t=18487367
Quote:


The price difference being small has nothing to do with it. It's still a waste of money, and that money could be better spent elsewhere for a larger performance increase.

If the OP does other things with their PC, they should tell us so we can better tell them what kind of computer to build. But if Tera Online is the most strenuous task they do, or any kind of gaming, frankly, then 2x2GB is more than enough. Save the money and put it elsewhere.

I mean, why not recommend the OP just throw in a 30GB Patriot SSD? The price is so cheap, right? What if the OP does drive caching? Why not?

Because it's a waste of money and it could better be spent elsewhere. Games and general programs simply don't use more than 4gb of RAM. DDR4 will become the standard before 8GB of RAM becomes necessary for a gaming computer.

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Yes single card solutions are better but if you want CF/SLI performance out of a single card then that single card will use alot of power...


This is such a silly thing to say...

First off, the Antec Neo Eco 620w is $29, so if you want an SLI/Crossfire capable PSU, there you go. A way better recommendation than some highly expensive and useless PSU on such a build...

If you want CF/SLi performance out of a single card then it will use a lot of power.... what? I really don't think you know that much about what you are talking about lol.

Single Card systems use very, very little power. You can look up benchmarks anywhere, here:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6276/nvidia-geforce-gtx-6...

In both full load and in demanding games, even the most power hungry of GPUs are hard pressed to ever go above 300w. None of them ever cross 350w. This is all on an extremely power hungry 1st gen i7, by the way. With an Ivy bridge CPU, you aren't going to cross 300w.

How much performance a card has, has nothing to do with how much power it draws. Please, you seem to be wrong on a lot of things, I would advise you be much more reserved when recommending computer parts. I see a lot of people on TomsHardware forums recommend equipment based on faulty understandings of how hardware works.

A quality power supply will last many years, it doesn't matter what power rating it is, but rather the parts used in it. If it has good solid capacitors made in Japan, maybe Taiwan, if it has ferrite chokes, good traces, proper wiring, and good cooling design, it will last a long time and lose virtually no power at all over time.

A 350w quality power supply, will be just as good in 5 years as it is new. It's only bad quality power supplies, that are a problem. As long as you have a quality PSU on a single GPU system, especially an Intel system, then you really don't need more than 350w.

A high quality, 350w PSU, will allow for extreme overclocks on a single GPU system. Please educate yourself more on power draw and how power supplies work, as you don't seem to understand it at all. It's not about the wattage of the power supply, but the power on the 12v rail and it's 12v rail amperage.

Future expansions has nothing to do with it either... a good 350w psu will allow all the expansions you would want, provided you stick to a single GPU system (and SLI/Crossfire is terrible, there's no reason to use SLI/Crossfire unless you want to SLI 3x 680s and have an insane budget...). SLI also introduces a lot of problems and microstuttering, which is why single card is always better than multi.

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Anyway we don't know the OP's exact budget so I listed high quality parts and I've already said are overkill for just TERA Online, but atleast it'll last 6 months without needing an upgrade (like the OP wants) and will allow him/her to play other modern and more demanding games.


Hyperbole. So you basically recommended a computer that has nothing to do with the OP's requests, because you don't know much about TERA online or what computer components are best. Good job.

OP said he plays Tera Online, and that he doesn't want to waste money. I told him a build for $500 that is overkill as it is.

Tera Online will be the same in 6 months, it'll be the same in 6 years. A computer game doesnt just randomly, in 6 months, change what it requires. Also, the parts recommended by me are all extremely powerful, they will manhandle most games, even at 1440.

The 'weakest' part of the build is the GPU, in which case he can upgrade as necessary, which is a pretty easy thing to do. This allows the OP to put more money towards a stronger CPU, SSD, and cooling, for a reasonable price. If he wants to spend more money, an i7 and RAID would be a bigger performance boost for his MMORPG than a stronger GPU.

i5 3570k will last at least another 5-10 years dude, it's a ridiculously strong CPU. All the components will last years. Your insane to think that somehow in 6 months any of this will be outdated. All of this stuff will last years. The idea that anything won't last 6 months is absurd and hyperbole.

If the OP wants to play Battlefield 4, when it comes out, in a year, he can sell his 460, and buy the 7950 for 50% of the price it's at now. In the meantime, he can put the most of his money where it counts, and his computer will still be able to play Battlefield4 on reasonable settings even without an upgrade, and it'll play even battlefield5 on medium settings.


My lord.... I almost fell asleep.

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Some dribble about the i5


....No-one is arguing about the i5, it's a good choice as a gaming processor. No need to write an essay.

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If the OP has other needs, he needs to suggest them. Otherwise, he needs to understand that trying to build for vague, undescript 'future' games, is only going to be to the sacrifice of his current needs. Would you rather get some awesome GPU that won't do anything for any game you play, or an awesome case? And so on.


Yeah building an overkill rig is going to be to the sacrifice of playing TERA Online.... Right :heink: 

Have you checked out how demanding TERA Online is?
Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTc6w24hS_g
Gameplay is with an overclocked GTX570 (near GTX580/HD7950 performance) at 1920 x 1080 and I saw FPS dips into the low 40's, OP said he wants 60FPS without any FPS drops.
The HD7950 may even struggle with a constant 60FPS at the larger resolution of 2560 x 1440.

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Crysis Warhead is not an accurate comparison to make with Tera Online, you got to be joking.


Try reading through the review, surprisingly they do test other games aswell....Crysis just happened to be the first in the list.

What's the point in buying a PC with a GPU that can't even run the less demanding games (like TERA Online) on max settings @60FPS.

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Like jesus christ dude. A $300 GPU is not going to be any better than a $60 GPU for Tera Online. Why would he spend $300 on a GPU when it isn't going to be used for anything? That is such a bad idea.

That $300, is better spent on an i7, 2 x SSDs in RAID, high end 2800mhz RAM. Those will actually give him a performance boost in Tera Online, moreso than a 7950 over a GTX 460. And yea, buying an i7 over an i5 is a huge waste of $100, but it'll be a much larger performance boost for OP.


Watch the video again if you still think what you said is true.

Look at this: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4503/sandy-bridge-memory-...

Even 1333Mhz is fine for gaming, not sure why your suggesting OP waste money on 2800Mhz, it'll make next to no difference in games
Equally a RAID array of SSD's will make next to no difference compared to a single SSD.

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You see nothing wrong with the Asus board because you read good reviews from sites that don't do proper reviews and remove the VRM heatsinks and you haven't used many motherboards.


I've also read user reviews aswell.

LOL, I haven't used many motherboard? haha ok :lol: 

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The price difference being small has nothing to do with it. It's still a waste of money, and that money could be better spent elsewhere for a larger performance increase.


It has everything to do with it, the difference is £12, here's an example

2x2GB http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MY...
2x4GB http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MY...

What else can he upgrade for £12 that will give him more of an improvement?

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This is such a silly thing to say...

First off, the Antec Neo Eco 620w is $29, so if you want an SLI/Crossfire capable PSU, there you go. A way better recommendation than some highly expensive and useless PSU on such a build...

If you want CF/SLi performance out of a single card then it will use a lot of power.... what? I really don't think you know that much about what you are talking about lol.


I wouldn't CF a pair of HD7950's on a Neo Eco 620W and I wouldn't recommend anyone else does either.

Yes, what I said is true, it's patently absurd to think that higher end GPU's use less power than lower end GPU's...

Quote:
Hyperbole. So you basically recommended a computer that has nothing to do with the OP's requests, because you don't know much about TERA online or what computer components are best. Good job.

OP said he plays Tera Online, and that he doesn't want to waste money. I told him a build for $500 that is overkill as it is.

Tera Online will be the same in 6 months, it'll be the same in 6 years. A computer game doesnt just randomly, in 6 months, change what it requires. Also, the parts recommended by me are all extremely powerful, they will manhandle most games, even at 1440.


Watch the vid or do your own research, oh and read the review I posted earlier, AGTX460 doesn't man handle games at 1440P.

And have you ever heard of game expansions, sometimes they're more demanding, so yes, a game can change in 6 months... :pfff: 
a c 125 K Overclocking
February 16, 2013 8:07:20 AM

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Have you checked out how demanding TERA Online is?
Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTc6w24hS_g
Gameplay is with an overclocked GTX570 (near GTX580/HD7950 performance) at 1920 x 1080 and I saw FPS dips into the low 40's, OP said he wants 60FPS without any FPS drops.
The HD7950 may even struggle with a constant 60FPS at the larger resolution of 2560 x 1440.


Minimum fps is usually an issue of the CPU, not GPU. In that particular video, his fps dipped when there were lots of characters, which is a CPU issue, not GPU. Recommending a better GPU won't address minimum fps, which is the most important issue in a MMORPG.

He's also got to understand never going below 60fps is probably impossible, even an i7 is going to dip, but a stronger CPU will dip less, and dip for shorter periods of time, than a weaker one. The more he spends on a GPU, the less he will spend on a CPU, which is what is important for a game like TERA.

i7-3770k + GTX 460 is better TERA performance than a Phenom X4 or even 3570k + 7950.

There could also be other issues with some random's computer...

Quote:
Try reading through the review, surprisingly they do test other games aswell....Crysis just happened to be the first in the list.

What's the point in buying a PC with a GPU that can't even run the less demanding games (like TERA Online) on max settings @60FPS.


None of the games were anything like Tera... crysis, stalker... completely irrelevant. The GTX 460 will handle such games with reduced AA and on high just fine. The idea is for him to spend his money on where it counts - his CPU and SSD.

Once he has a 3770K and decent SATA III ssd, then he can look into spending more on his GPU.


Quote:
Watch the video again if you still think what you said is true.

Look at this: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4503 [...] est-ddr3/6

Even 1333Mhz is fine for gaming, not sure why your suggesting OP waste money on 2800Mhz, it'll make next to no difference in games
Equally a RAID array of SSD's will make next to no difference compared to a single SSD.


Nowhere did I recommend 2800mhz ram. I said it'd be a bigger performance boost to get 2800mhz ram, then to get a $300 GPU for Tera. The point being, there'd be no performance boost at all, or virtually none. It's a waste of money.

Quote:
It has everything to do with it, the difference is £12, here's an example

2x2GB http://www.overclockers.co.uk/show [...] ubcat=1517
2x4GB http://www.overclockers.co.uk/show [...] ubcat=1517

What else can he upgrade for £12 that will give him more of an improvement?


How about this - he's better spending his $20-30 extra on a better GPU, than 8gb of RAM. A game cannot possibly use more than 4GB of RAM, there's zero improvement in getting 8GB of RAM that will never be used over 4GB of RAM.

It's like saying getting a bigger PSU will give him more FPS and performance. it won't. As long as you have a quality PSU, it'll power your computer with no stability issues. As long as you have 2x2GB of RAM, you are completely set for gaming and general usage.

Quote:
I wouldn't CF a pair of HD7950's on a Neo Eco 620W and I wouldn't recommend anyone else does either.

Yes, what I said is true, it's patently absurd to think that higher end GPU's use less power than lower end GPU's...


It's absurd to think that GPU performance has anything to do with power draw. And yes, many of today's higher end GPUs use less power than their older, slower counterparts.

Quote:
Watch the vid or do your own research, oh and read the review I posted earlier, AGTX460 doesn't man handle games at 1440P.

And have you ever heard of game expansions, sometimes they're more demanding, so yes, a game can change in 6 months...


Game expansions are always done on the same engine. Expansions are never significantly more demanding. Please, the misinformation you keep spewing makes it blatantly apparent you have no clue what you are talking about.

If anything, expansions might use more textures, which is an issue of VRAM, not GPU strength (again, like RAM, as long as you have enough, that's all you need, having more what improve anything). it's pretty safe to say that expansions never are more demanding, not by any significant or noticeable amount, beyond increased textures, which isn't more demanding but rather requires more memory is all. And even then, very insignificant increase in textures.

GTX 460 manhandles most games, and it'll handle most games even at 1440 just fine. It won't handle the newest and latest games on max settings at 1440, but it'll be just fine on decent settings for many games, especially Tera Online.

OP isn't even reading this or responding, we should just drop this. You are clearly wrong on a lot of things anyways, it's a joke to recommend a 7950 or 8gb of RAM for tera rofl.


Quote:
Minimum fps is usually an issue of the CPU, not GPU. In that particular video, his fps dipped when there were lots of characters, which is a CPU issue, not GPU. Recommending a better GPU won't address minimum fps, which is the most important issue in a MMORPG.

He's also got to understand never going below 60fps is probably impossible, even an i7 is going to dip, but a stronger CPU will dip less, and dip for shorter periods of time, than a weaker one. The more he spends on a GPU, the less he will spend on a CPU, which is what is important for a game like TERA.


You don't know that to be the case, especially considering the guy in the vid is running a core i7 920 @ 3.6Ghz, hardly slow, I very much doubt it's the bottleneck.
At 2560 x 1440 the GPU demand is even higher, I'm absolutely sure a HD7950 would be a huge improvement over a GTX460, including minimum FPS.

Quote:
None of the games were anything like Tera... crysis, stalker... completely irrelevant. The GTX 460 will handle such games with reduced AA and on high just fine. The idea is for him to spend his money on where it counts - his CPU and SSD.


Yeah TERA wasn't tested but it still shows that a GTX460 can't handle the demand of todays games at high resolutions.

A faster SSD won't give him more FPS, neither your choice (a samsung 830) or mine (840 pro) would be the limiting factor.

You said:
Quote:
That $300, is better spent on an i7, 2 x SSDs in RAID, high end 2800mhz RAM.
I'm pretty sure a better GPU will give him more performance than another SSD or quicker RAM that makes no difference.

Quote:
How about this - he's better spending his $20-30 extra on a better GPU, than 8gb of RAM. A game cannot possibly use more than 4GB of RAM, there's zero improvement in getting 8GB of RAM that will never be used over 4GB of RAM.

It's like saying getting a bigger PSU will give him more FPS and performance. it won't. As long as you have a quality PSU, it'll power your computer with no stability issues. As long as you have 2x2GB of RAM, you are completely set for gaming and general usage.


So a better GPU would help now then? :pt1cable: 

I never said a better PSU would give him more FPS, my argument was that a 850W PSU was overkill but would allow future upgrades and overclocking and would last along time (perhaps even into a new rig in a few years time).

Quote:
It's absurd to think that GPU performance has anything to do with power draw. And yes, many of today's higher end GPUs use less power than their older, slower counterparts.


Oh really? look at AMD's entire lineup of 7xxx series cards, as performance increases so does power draw.

Quote:
Game expansions are always done on the same engine. Expansions are never significantly more demanding. Please, the misinformation you keep spewing makes it blatantly apparent you have no clue what you are talking about.


You said a game couldn't change in 6 months, I was just pointing out that you are obviously incorrect.

Quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2TCCILYEUk

just google gtx 460 tera online. More than powerful enough.

http://www.terafans.com/topic/9636 [...] -smoothly/
GTX 460 is more than powerful enough

etc etc


In the vid I posted you can see the FPS counter, in yours you cannot, Am I just mean't to believe what eXploW1337 says is true...

Besides which that's at 1920 x 1080, there's a huge difference between 1080 and 1440P (2073600 px Vs 3686400 px).

Anyway I'm not posting in this thread anymore, OP hasn't replied and so this seems pointless.
February 17, 2013 9:44:55 AM

Right now (my old PC)I have a i7 960 3.2 MHz, GTX 470, Asus Rampage II Gene.
In 1920 x 1080 in calm environments and if you stay still it stays at 60 fps or more.
But if you start combat, or go in a crowded places you get DRAMATIC drops in fps. I'm not talking about going down to 10-20 fps. I'm talking about the games goes in freeze-like state for 2-3 seconds before rendering and then going back to 10-30 fps, then 2-3 seconds of freeze-like state again. This happens every time you do something demanding like combat or crowded places.
If you group and do a dungeon things get much worse. I have to lower all the graphic parameters to the minimum to get a playable game.
So I'm looking for something MUCH better than this.
Anyway thank you for the suggestions, the 840 pro seems nice and the 3570 maybe is nice too.
I don't know.
Just understand Tera is a VERY demanding game. Much more than people thing.
With a GTX 470 and i7 960 the PC struggles. Believe me I own this PC
a c 125 K Overclocking
February 18, 2013 6:06:08 AM

Hopeseeker said:
Right now (my old PC)I have a i7 960 3.2 MHz, GTX 470, Asus Rampage II Gene.
In 1920 x 1080 in calm environments and if you stay still it stays at 60 fps or more.
But if you start combat, or go in a crowded places you get DRAMATIC drops in fps. I'm not talking about going down to 10-20 fps. I'm talking about the games goes in freeze-like state for 2-3 seconds before rendering and then going back to 10-30 fps, then 2-3 seconds of freeze-like state again. This happens every time you do something demanding like combat or crowded places.
If you group and do a dungeon things get much worse. I have to lower all the graphic parameters to the minimum to get a playable game.
So I'm looking for something MUCH better than this.
Anyway thank you for the suggestions, the 840 pro seems nice and the 3570 maybe is nice too.
I don't know.
Just understand Tera is a VERY demanding game. Much more than people thing.
With a GTX 470 and i7 960 the PC struggles. Believe me I own this PC


You could do some simple tests to find out if your CPU is the bottleneck by either

1) Overclocking your CPU which would make your CPU faster and so should give you a more constant frame rate if it's bottlenecking, obviously only do this if temps/voltage permits.

2) Decrease a few of the graphics settings, if your frame rate doesn't improve you likely have a CPU bottleneck, if it does improve then your GPU is holding back the performance.
February 18, 2013 8:53:20 AM

If I lower the graphics setting to the minimum amount, I still get some drops. Less dramatic drops, shorter freezes, but I still get them.
I'm not overclocking at all, as far as I know. I only set the motherboard BIOS in "gaming" setting. But I don't know what to do other than this. If someone could explain how, I'd be thankful. I have a Rampage II gene Motherboard.
I don't know what a microcenter is, I'm not from the US or UK either.
a c 125 K Overclocking
February 18, 2013 9:11:59 AM

Hopeseeker said:
If I lower the graphics setting to the minimum amount, I still get some drops. Less dramatic drops, shorter freezes, but I still get them.
I'm not overclocking at all, as far as I know. I only set the motherboard BIOS in "gaming" setting. But I don't know what to do other than this. If someone could explain how, I'd be thankful. I have a Rampage II gene Motherboard.
I don't know what a microcenter is, I'm not from the US or UK either.


If your still getting drops at less demanding graphics settings then you could have a CPU bottleneck.

Here's a X58 O/C guide if you wanted to give it a go: http://www.overclock.net/t/538439/guide-to-overclocking...

You could also try re-installing your graphics drivers/updating to the latest if you haven't already.
a c 125 K Overclocking
February 18, 2013 5:48:33 PM

2041148,20,1459976 said:
It's not really like that. CPU doesn't 'bottleneck' a GPU or vice versa .

I'm afraid you're mistaken

"When you are playing a game on your computer, a lot of hardware components are interacting. There is the Motherboard, CPU, The Video Card, Ram, and Hard drive. All these components are constantly sending information between each other and depending on how much load each component is taking, one of them will become the bottleneck or quite possibly there could be multiple partial bottlenecks. Modern games are very graphics intensive. They have features such as HDR, Complex Shaders, Anti aliasing and other effects that put a lot of stress on your graphics card. However, you CPU is also working hard to render the images. It is sort of like the CPU is painting a black and white picture and the graphics card is adding colors to it. The CPU is also running calculations that are determining how objects interact in the game (physics) and how non player characters (NPCs) react to their surroundings (Artificial Intelligence). Depending on the kind of scene being rendered in the game there is a distribution of work between the CPU and GPU and the slower of the two becomes the bottleneck or partial bottleneck."

Have a read and educate yourself: http://benchmarkextreme.com/Articles/CPU%20Bottleneck%2...
[/quote]
a c 125 K Overclocking
February 19, 2013 6:05:47 AM

Quote:
That's putting into simple terms, how PCI express lanes operate and the interface controller.

Yes, bottlenecking exists, but even that site explains, that it's not in the way you are using the word. You are more like saying "well it'd be ridiculous to put a $500 GPU on a $50 CPU".

Actual bottlenecking, is something like putting a GTX 680 in Triple SLI on a sandy bridge CPU, that runs the GPUs on PCI-express 2.0 and and x16/x8/x8 instead of 16x/16x/8x and thus you lose maybe 5-8% performance only in specific games.

Please, tell me more about 4850s work with the brand new tricore CPUs that are coming out when this article was written 10 years ago.


Yeah I tried to find an article that explained it in simple terms but you still misunderstood it.....

Nowhere in the part of the article I quoted did it mention PCI-E bus/Lanes, it's explaining the relationship of the CPU and GPU and what they do.

Your talking about PCI-E Bus bottlenecking, whereas I am talking about CPU bottlenecking as it's actually relevant to the OP's situation.

The information in that article is still valid, doesn't matter if technology has come along way, the same principles apply.
a c 125 K Overclocking
February 19, 2013 7:01:07 AM

Quote:
You realize that article is almost a decade old and is a very generalized, dumbed down explanation right? It isn't even about technical bottlenecking at all.

They are talking about interfacing and pci-e lanes. They dumb it down so people like you can understand it. They are not talking about, say, an athlon ii x2 with a 480. They are talking about having a CPU that's capable of providing the bandwidth for the GPU, like making sure you get an Ivy Bridge for a pci-e 3.0 GPU, and not a Sandy Bridge - not that you have a powerful i7 Ivy Bridge instead of an Ivy Bridge Pentium with a 680 Tri-SLI.

Keep diggin bro.

edit: lol dude you post totally out of context too. That was an introduction on an article testing to see if bottlenecking existed, not something say conclusively that bottlenecking exists as misinformed people think it does. From the same site you linked:

Quote:
When running Tri SLI, you will run into major CPU bottlenecks in most gaming titles, regardless of the resolution you are playing at, unless you have significantly overclocked your CPU. At 2560 X 1600, a minimum of 3.8 GHZ is recommended, and below 2560 X 1600, I wouldn't go with anything less than 4.0 GHZ.


He's mostly talking about bottlenecking as it relates to PCI-E lanes, SLI, and extremely high end GPU configurations in SLI/Tri-SLI. Hardly relevant to a conversation about single GPU systems, where bottlenecking, as the article shows, does not occur.

On a side note, he does mention that lower resolutions are more CPU intensive. That has nothing to do with bottlenecking though.


The info I quoted from the article disputes what you said before "It's not really like that. CPU doesn't 'bottleneck' a GPU or vice versa"

I don't know why your going off on a tangent about PCI-E lanes, its been proven along time ago that even a x4 2.0 lane is enough for most graphics cards.

@OP Another way you could check to see if you have a CPU bottleneck is to run the game as you normally do but use MSI afterburners in game display to show you the GPU usage, it should nearly always be 99%.
a c 125 K Overclocking
February 19, 2013 7:11:44 PM

Quote:
Right. Bottlenecking imples that your GPU restricts the full power of your CPU, or vice versa. That does not happen. That is what the word bottleneck means (ie a bottleneck in the road means all the cars can't drive their full speed because they are all jammed up by the traffic work).

In the context of computers, bottlenecking rarely occurs. An Athlon II x2 and a GTX 580, both will operate at 100% load when necessary. However, people like you incorrectly use the word, and say this system constitutes a bottleneck. It is not a bottleneck, it's simply a ridiculously powerful GPU on a relatively weak CPU.

But a Sandy Bridge i7-2600k and 3 630's in SLI, would constitute a bottleneck, because there is limited bandwidth. And, it would not even constitute a 10% performance drop even in some Eyefinity triple monitor set-up on 1080x3.

That is what bottlenecking is. It's a limitation of the bandwidth. Like running a SATA 3 SSD on a SATA 2 port. That's bottlenecking.

You should also realize that the technology was totally different in the article that was written. Maybe if you provide something more relevant, you wouldn't look like such a bafoon.

If you don't think a GPU can be bottlenecked by a CPU then that's fine, if you choose to ignore the evidence it's your choice.

I'm just trying to help the OP out, I'm not here to educate you.

I'm all for healthy discussion and debate but If you carry on insulting me I'll report you.
a c 125 K Overclocking
February 20, 2013 7:54:51 AM

Quote:
There is no 'evidence' that, say, an Ivy Bridge i3, will be bottlenecked at all by 3 680's in SLI. It's a little goofy to buy 3x680's when you only got an i3, but there's no bottleneck. Yet a bottleneck will exist with a Sandy Bridge i7-2600K, and 2x660's, but it's extremely minor and such a non-issue.


Yeah, I doubt anyone has brought 3 x GTX680's and an i3.

So are you saying that an i3 won't be bottlenecked by TriSLI GTX680's but 2 x GTX660's will bottleneck the faster 2600K?
:heink: 

Quote:
You are not helping the OP out, you are incorrect. Please stop spreading misinformation because you don't know any better. The cited article even clearly shows that bottlenecking does not exist as you say it does.


I have already explained that I quoted the article to inform you of how the CPU and GPU interact.

Quote:
There is absolutely zero bottleneck that exists simply because you choose to run a low power CPU with a very high power GPU, or vice versa. The CPU and GPU run independent of each other, they do their own tasks.


Read the quote again, the CPU sends info about the frame that needs to be rendered, it also handles physics calculations and AI calculations aswell as many other tasks

Here's another quote as you seem to have difficulty with the last one

"A graphics card works along the same principles. The CPU, working in conjunction with software applications, sends information about the image to the graphics card. The graphics card decides how to use the pixels on the screen to create the image. It then sends that information to the monitor through a cable. "
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/graphics-card.htm

Here's a Tomshardware article that shows in some games a strong CPU is needed for the GPU to stretch it's legs and they are using a fairly balanced system.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/game-performance-bottlene...

It should be clear from the above that a CPU can bottleneck a GPU.

Quote:
Because you are incorrect and making something up. It's a myth that's been perpetuated by misinformed people at worse, and at best is simply a term used to say, basically "hey bro, maybe you shouldn't buy a $300 GPU for your $50 CPU"


I'm not making anything up, I'm providing evidence to support my claim.

Quote:
As you can see, every CPU comes down to the exact same minimum fps at a particularly intensive point in Metro 2033. The CPU does not bottleneck the GPU, the GPU does not bottleneck the CPU, any further than the issue of the PCI-Express controller. However the CPU, and the GPU, independent of each other, can struggle to maintain the workload, and bottleneck a program.


Yes, they all have a similar dip (although not exactly the same) at one point in that graph.

As you can see from the rest of the test there are large differences between the CPU's

Quote from the article: "The rest of the test does reveal differences between the various CPUs and APUs, though."

"AMD's A4-3400 obviously struggles, and the Athlon II X3 455 is also a little slower than the competition. Even the Pentiums under-perform compared to where we might have expected them to fall, suggesting that this title might be better-optimized for quad-core CPUs."

"It’s interesting that the Core i3-2100 dips at the beginning of this metric, followed by AMD's A8-3870K. The Core i5 CPUs demonstrate admirable performance, but are bottlenecked by our fully-modern AMD graphics card at certain points in this test."

Thanks for posting an article that supports my claim ;) 

I can even do my own tests to show a CPU bottlenecking my GPU.
a c 125 K Overclocking
February 20, 2013 5:35:26 PM

Just the Toms bottleneck article alone proves that a weaker CPU can limit the GPU's usage.

Anyway the OP isn't posting anymore by the looks of it and I'm not going to argue the toss with you about what constitutes a bottleneck, we obviously have a difference of opinion so I'll leave it at that.

Lovely chatting with you :) 
a c 125 K Overclocking
February 20, 2013 6:18:19 PM

I didn't even read your last post mate, like I said I'm done arguing the toss with you.
!