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Samsung 830 Performance Degradation

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  • SSD
  • Performance
  • Samsung
  • Storage
Last response: in Storage
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May 1, 2012 1:47:01 PM

So what I am doing wrong here? I have had this for 3 weeks. Look at the dates and the decrease in read times especially. Just installed OS fresh and followed the SSD optimization hints in “Useful SSD Articles – Part 2”. TRIM is enabled.

I had the same problem before the 21st, and then I did something, (emptied recycle bin??) and it improved to the figures of 21st. Now this, again.

Isn’t TRIM supposed to be constantly cleaning up to prevent this? Isn’t one week a rather short period of time to have filled up a 128 SSD (~50% full)? Someone on Samsung.com mentioned exact same problem with nearly same figures, but no helpful response in forum. It's got to be something simple. Any help is appreciated


AS SSD Benchmark 1.6.4237.30508
------------------------------
Name: SAMSUNG SSD 830 Series ATA Device
Firmware: CXM03B1Q
Controller: msahci
Offset: 103424 K - OK
Size: 119.24 GB


Date: ---- 4/29/2012 ---- 4/21/2012
------------------------------
Sequential:
------------------------------
Read: -- 504.90 MB/s -- 499.74 MB/s
Write: --- 61.57 MB/s -- 304.35 MB/s
------------------------------
4K:
------------------------------
Read: --- 17.51 MB/s --- 20.84 MB/s
Write: ---- 1.90 MB/s --- 74.91 MB/s
------------------------------
4K-64Threads:
------------------------------
Read: -- 146.47 MB/s --- 269.05 MB/s
Write: ---- 4.67 MB/s ----- 73.86 MB/s
------------------------------
Access Times:
------------------------------
Read: ---- 0.140 ms ---- 0.101 ms
Write: --- 2.214 ms ---- 0.046 ms
------------------------------
Score:
------------------------------
Read: ---- 214 ---- 340
Write: ----- 13 ---- 179
Total: ---- 321 ---- 690
------------------------------



More about : samsung 830 performance degradation

a b Ô Samsung
a c 327 G Storage
May 1, 2012 2:44:54 PM

Try running a manual TRIM with the Samsung SSD Magician, also see what the Magician tells you about the drive status. Check at Samsung.com to make sure that you have the latest version of Magician so you will have the latest firmware.
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a b Ô Samsung
a c 353 G Storage
May 1, 2012 3:04:31 PM

I think it is all in the understanding of when trim cmd is issued.

Trim is only issued when a file is deleted. And here lies the problem, when you delete a file it is NOT deleted, only "marked" for deletion and The only action is the "File name" is placed in the recycle bin (a folder). The file is still there and in the same location.
When you hit the empty the recycle bin THEN the file is deleted and the trim cmd is issued.

In the course of a week you delete a bunch of files - NO Files have been deleted, hense no trim cmd. at the end of w week you empty the recycle bin, now all thoughs files are deleted and at that time a trim cmd is issued. Myself, don't have this problem as I have disabled the recycle bin, so every time I delete a file a trim comd is issued. Caution, DON'T accidently delete a file.

Alternatively, just empty the Bin periodically, ie once a day or two..
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May 1, 2012 3:27:15 PM

"Run TRIM". Would that be "Performance Optimization"? I have done that. I don't see anything else in the magician software that could be considered running TRIM. No improvement.

Added -- RetiredChief -- That's what I thought, so I gratuitously sent a file to recycle and deleted it. No change when I reran benchmarks. But I'll try it again: Do Performance Opti, delete a file to the bin, empty the bin, wait, and benchmark with magician. Should see r/w of 500/300. . .


Later -- No change.
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a b Ô Samsung
a c 353 G Storage
May 1, 2012 4:13:57 PM

One problem with trim, you can verify that it is enable - BUT that is all. When windows sends the cmd to the SSD, how it is handled in conjuction with the internal GC I am not sure, but it is probably not going to be implimented immediately.
While I love the samsung 830 and the curcial M4s they are not the best on implimenting CG. Apparently it only works when the system has been idle for some time.

Do NOT run repeated Benchmarks - They are not good for SSDs. and never run them back-to-back, the SSD has to "recover" from all of the writes. My Self, I run it one time (I use AS SSD) right after windows/drivers/programs have been installed to get a baseline and confirm it is working to specs. What I do is get afeel for How the day-to-day operation is, ie has my boot time increased, are programs taking longer to load - If that answer is NO then, I'm happy. However, if the ans is YES, then I would look into to see if I can find a reason - Normally reruning a benchmark will not give the reason - only verify. I would open AS SSD and verify that the driver has NOT changed and this can be done without running the Benchmark.

Try deleting a file, empy the recycle bin, then shut down all programs and log off and leave the system for several hours in this state. Log in reboot, How is your Boot time, open some programs, are the instantanous.
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May 1, 2012 5:56:10 PM

Is this type of degradation mostly a problem with these Samsung devices or is it a general problem for all SSDs? I've heard that SSDs that use the Sandforce controllers seem to handle this better than others, but I don't know if that's right or not.
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May 1, 2012 6:30:00 PM

Perhaps "degradation" was the wrong word to use. Degradation might imply that 10,000x limit of the lifetime of the SSD. This seems to be a problem with me getting the TRIM command to work. I left Samsung an email, so we'll see what they can do to help. Probably call them tomorrow or after.

Further, I thought that using the benchmark capability a bit too much would be OK since I am having this problem; haven't used since I first installed it.
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a b Ô Samsung
a c 313 G Storage
May 2, 2012 12:31:36 AM

I am going to start by clearing up a misconception. TRIM is not an ssd feature. TRIM is a Microsoft Windows feature that was first introduced in Windows 7. It is a message from Windows 7 to the ssd indicating that a pc user has deleted files. The Microsoft Windows TRIM feature is relatively new and not really necessary for maintaining optimal performance. There are many situations where it is not possible for an ssd to make use of the Windows TRIM feature. One example would be ssd's used in a RAID array. Another example would be ssd's in a pc system that uses a non-Windows Operating Sytem.

aicom:

1. According to Microsoft TRIM is an attribute of the Microsoft Windows ATA protocol’s Data Set Management command. Therefore TRIM originates with Windows. The point I was trying to make is that TRIM is a Windows process and not an ssd process. We have entirely too many individuals under the false impression that TRIM is some sort of ssd feature.

2. I was not thinking of MAC OS or Linux. The non-Windows Operating Systems are typically proprietary OS's over in the business enterprise and scientific sides of the market.

more to follow.....
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a b G Storage
May 2, 2012 12:52:46 AM

JohnnyLucky said:
I am going to start by clearing up a misconception. TRIM is not an ssd feature. TRIM is a Microsoft Windows feature that was first introduced in Windows 7. It is a message from Windows 7 to the ssd indicating that a pc user has deleted files. The Microsoft Windows TRIM feature is relatively new and not really necessary for maintaining optimal performance. There are many situations where it is not possible for an ssd to make use of the Windows TRIM feature. One example would be ssd's used in a RAID array. Another example would be ssd's in a pc system that uses a non-Windows Operating Sytem.

There's more but my better half says supper is on the table. Back in a bit with more info and a possible solution.


Let me clear up a misconception about your clearing up a misconception. TRIM is an ATA command. It's sent to drives in Windows 7, but also Mac OS X 10.7 and Linux (since I don't remember when). You're right in saying that TRIM is not necessary but it is certainly recommended. TRIM basically tells the SSD controller that a block is no longer being used so it can be written over by the GC without having to backup and move the data there. This allows the SSD to GC faster and use less P/E cycles by not having to copy data that Windows has "deleted".
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a b Ô Samsung
a c 353 G Storage
May 2, 2012 2:17:09 AM

^ Correct, list of operating systems supportting trim listed in ref.
Johnny, while Trim is NOT required, it is benificial.
Quote:
More recent SSDs will often contain internal idle/background garbage collection mechanisms that work independently of TRIM; although this successfully maintains their performance even under operating systems that do not (yet) support TRIM, it has the associated drawbacks of increased write amplification and wear of the flash cells.[5]
End quote.
Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIM
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May 2, 2012 2:42:59 AM

Later that evening -- read/write 500/300 as per Magician.

You know, I never have things to delete, so that's probably the reason. With Magician compare (a capability of the Samsung Magician SSD maintenance software allowing comparison of automatically stored benchmarks measured after a Performance Optimization) previous reading was 11 hours ago.
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a c 99 G Storage
May 2, 2012 3:01:33 AM

Those stats look okay for a Samsung SSD. Writes are slower, but we won't go there.

Have you done any SSD tweaks? Here are my favs:

The SSD Review - The SSD Optimization Guide

OCZ Blog (although a OCZ is not required) - SSD Tips and Tweaks

However, did you know that running that many benchmark programs can hurt the SSD? OCZ Vertex 2's suffer from what the call "drive throttling" were the drive slowed down when it encounter too many write cycles. It takes a long time to recover. But anyway...

Try running the ATTO benchmark. AS is more "real world" and ATTO is what the manufactures use to "pump up" there scores (e.g. OCZ). Didn't I just tell you not to run benches?

You never mentioned what OS your are running, we all just assume it's Windows 7. XP would be a problem. But you have ACHI, so Win7.

And how full is the drive? Oh, you said 50% of 128GB. Okay.
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a b Ô Samsung
a c 313 G Storage
May 2, 2012 3:12:50 AM

OBE = Overcome by events - which is exactly what is happeneing to me due to external interruptions.

Jumping way forward

eXistenz - There is still more to be done. Go into the Magician and take a look at the overprovisioning section. If you have not changed it, it will show 0% overprovisioning. That does not mean there is none. It just means you have not changed it from the consumer standard of about 7%. It will also recommend increasing overprovisioning to 10% for improved performance. Go ahead and do it. It's okay.

Next, I have a few questions for you.

You mentioned you performed some tweaks from a guide. Which tweaks did your perform? A few ssd tweaks have been identified as possibly being detrimental.

You mentioned your ssd was 50% full in a rather short time. Are you storing some sort of files or is Windows doing things in the background? There are some Windows items you can store on a hard disk drive instead of the ssd. One example would be backup and restore.

Retired Chief - List of OS's that support TRIM is much shorter than list of OS's that do not support TRIM.

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a c 99 G Storage
May 2, 2012 3:23:19 AM

Quote:
eXistenz - There is still more to be done. Go into the Magician and take a look at the overprovisioning section. If you have not changed it, it will show 0% overprovisioning. That does not mean there is none. It just means you have not changed it from the consumer standard of about 7%. It will also recommend increasing overprovisioning to 10% for improved performance. Go ahead and do it. It's okay.


Yes, do that. That's why I asked how full. I used to only partion 80% of the RAID 0 size of my SSDs, since I wouldn't have TRIM. Never had this/your problem.

Quote:
You mentioned you performed some tweaks from a guide. Which tweaks did your perform? A few ssd tweaks have been identified as possibly being detrimental.


True that. Turning off "write-cache buffer flushing" hurts all but OCZ drives. But this was back a while. But Samsung may suggest this (?).

Cheers.


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May 2, 2012 4:39:48 PM

Ubuntu dual-boot is 18GB of that 50%. Win 7, Asus p8z68-v, 2500k, 1TB HDD.

Users/MyName moved to D: on HDD as per Useful SSD Articles / Tweaks - User Folder - Change Default Location / Option 1 (create a fake admin).

Well this is interesting. I was looking through the web yesterday or before, and I ran across an article that TOLD ME to turn on write caching on the device – previously I not even selected it – and I see that I TURNED OFF the cache flushing. (Hmm. Is that what it said?) O o o o .

(Hmm. Is this a thought bubble?) O o o o .

Oh yea. Thanks. It is corrected, viz., Policies / select enable write caching / no-select cache buffer flushing.

This is why I just did everything in the SSD section of TomsHardware and left it at that (The SSD Review article). I list this for future reference:

1. Ensure your computer is operating in AHCI mode. -- OK
2. Ensure chipset drivers are up to date. -- OK
3. Disable system restore. -- OK
4. Disable drive indexing. – on C only.
5. Disable drive defragmentation schedule – OK
6. Turn off pagefile. – no paging file
7. Turn off hibernation. – immediate prompt reappearance
8. Turn off windows write-cache buffer flushing…or not. – enabled caching / no-select cache buffer flushing
9. Disable prefetch and superfetch. – both were set to 0
10. Disable windows search and superfetch. – yep, that was done
11. Enable faster boot through msconfig. – didn’t change this.
12. Turn off multi-boot selection. – nope, am running win7 + Ubuntu
13. Disable recycle bin. – no thanks, but I rarely have anything to delete.
14. Decrease shutdown time. – no, not a big deal
15. Verify TRIM. – working
16. Power settings. -- OK
17. Disable ‘clearpagefileatshutdown’ -- OK
And ‘largesystemcache‘. -- OK
18. NTFS memory usage & NTFS disable name creation. – changed these to suggested values and reboot


Will double overprovision to 14% [?] after backup later today. I think my problem is I never have anything in recycle bin.


Hey. What's the deal on Performance Optimization Scheduling? Daily? Weekly? You can schedule optimization and/or benchmarking, so I might think that it could optimize without wasting your SSD cycles through unnecessary benchmarking.

Later --

For those of us following but don't (yet) have Samsung 830:

To Over Provision, you just select that option and have the software scan the drive. It then suggests 11.9GB drive shrinkage (10%). You select it and it takes 2 seconds. Win7 now sees that drive as 107GB vs previous 119GB, with 11.9GB unallocated space showing and another small section of 0.1GB seen in the magician softwrare. These do not show up when you run disk backup.

I am going to set daily Performance Optimization Scheduling and see if I get a bunch of benchmarks being saved. That way we'll know whether POS simply optimizes or whether it wastes write cycles.

Even later -- It does a benchmark each time. I am going to change to weekly scheduling.
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a c 99 G Storage
May 2, 2012 11:05:14 PM

I think you have got a great grasp of your OP!

Great job, dude!

Cheers.
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May 2, 2012 11:38:56 PM

foscooter said:
I think you have got a great grasp of your OP!

Great job, dude!

Cheers.


Yea. This turned into a pretty informative thread. Thanks, all. So I thought I owed it to everyone to document this problem well. As I have stated, someone mentioned this same problem on Samsung site, but did not receive a direct response to original question.
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May 11, 2012 12:59:08 PM

Best answer selected by eXistenZ.
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August 10, 2012 8:06:45 AM

Hello,

I'm having the same problem and I've read this post over and over again. I don't to understand what was your main problem and how u solved it?

Can you please explain me what causes this performance problem and what u did to solve it?

Thanks
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August 10, 2012 1:35:36 PM

I believe my main problem was that I never have anything to delete. Now I make sure that I delete at least "something" once a day. Also, I never really leave the machine alone without doing anything (background downloading). So the thing never got the opportunity to do Garbage Collection. (So I try to let it sit, with the anti-virus shut off, every now and then.)

My symptoms were like: IO per second = 12 !

I did all of the tweaks right off the start, so it wasn't that, just no GC and no deletes.

Another problem is that, now, I rarely get 30k Random Reads, it's more like 20k. I have pretty much written it off as bait-and-switch.

"Speed 'up to' . . . "


Anyway, what are "your" symptoms?
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August 10, 2012 5:34:40 PM

Thanks for your reply. Since I have this SSD I didn't delete much as well.

My symptoms are (I use Sata II and not III):

When I first installed windows 7 and some programs I had:
Sequence read: 265 +/-
Sequence write: 252 +/-
Random read: 48000 +/-
Random write: 23500 +/-

1 month after (installed BF3 and WoW):
Sequence read: 251 +/-
Sequence write: 222 +/-
Random read: 46200 +/-
Random write: 11500 +/-

I also did all the tweaks u did. I don't understand how and why it is giving me this values...
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August 13, 2012 4:27:14 PM

My last Magician benchmark:

Sequence read: 517
Sequence write: 306
Random read: 64660
Random write: 18218

I am dissatisfied with those random write numbers, which were advertised to be 30k.
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August 30, 2012 8:06:46 AM

RetiredChief said:
One problem with trim, you can verify that it is enable - BUT that is all. When windows sends the cmd to the SSD, how it is handled in conjuction with the internal GC I am not sure, but it is probably not going to be implimented immediately.
While I love the samsung 830 and the curcial M4s they are not the best on implimenting CG. Apparently it only works when the system has been idle for some time.

Do NOT run repeated Benchmarks - They are not good for SSDs. and never run them back-to-back, the SSD has to "recover" from all of the writes. My Self, I run it one time (I use AS SSD) right after windows/drivers/programs have been installed to get a baseline and confirm it is working to specs. What I do is get afeel for How the day-to-day operation is, ie has my boot time increased, are programs taking longer to load - If that answer is NO then, I'm happy. However, if the ans is YES, then I would look into to see if I can find a reason - Normally reruning a benchmark will not give the reason - only verify. I would open AS SSD and verify that the driver has NOT changed and this can be done without running the Benchmark.

Try deleting a file, empy the recycle bin, then shut down all programs and log off and leave the system for several hours in this state. Log in reboot, How is your Boot time, open some programs, are the instantanous.


ty i needed to read this i just got a new 830 128 from Newegg for 64 cents a gig... :D  re: Apparently it only works when the system has been idle for some time. i wasnt sure how this worked.... so i just live my rig o after im done for some time. right?
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August 30, 2012 8:35:30 AM

Kaisers said:
Thanks for your reply. Since I have this SSD I didn't delete much as well.

My symptoms are (I use Sata II and not III):

When I first installed windows 7 and some programs I had:
Sequence read: 265 +/-
Sequence write: 252 +/-
Random read: 48000 +/-
Random write: 23500 +/-

1 month after (installed BF3 and WoW):
Sequence read: 251 +/-
Sequence write: 222 +/-
Random read: 46200 +/-
Random write: 11500 +/-

I also did all the tweaks u did. I don't understand how and why it is giving me this values...


my writes are at like 75mbs not sure about iops never looked at that setting
... lol and i to am using sata 2, 3 gb... i dont understand.. ( i just gave up ) my 830 128gb is 4 days old.... 8.27.12
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November 17, 2012 2:04:00 PM

JohnnyLucky said:
I am going to start by clearing up a misconception. TRIM is not an ssd feature. TRIM is a Microsoft Windows feature that was first introduced in Windows 7. It is a message from Windows 7 to the ssd indicating that a pc user has deleted files. The Microsoft Windows TRIM feature is relatively new and not really necessary for maintaining optimal performance. There are many situations where it is not possible for an ssd to make use of the Windows TRIM feature. One example would be ssd's used in a RAID array. Another example would be ssd's in a pc system that uses a non-Windows Operating Sytem.

aicom:

1. According to Microsoft TRIM is an attribute of the Microsoft Windows ATA protocol’s Data Set Management command. Therefore TRIM originates with Windows. The point I was trying to make is that TRIM is a Windows process and not an ssd process. We have entirely too many individuals under the false impression that TRIM is some sort of ssd feature.

2. I was not thinking of MAC OS or Linux. The non-Windows Operating Systems are typically proprietary OS's over in the business enterprise and scientific sides of the market.

more to follow.....



WRONG. TRIM is part of ATA, SCSI and SD/MMC.

ATA

The TRIM command specification is being standardized as part of the AT Attachment (ATA) interface standard, led by Technical Committee T13 of the International Committee for Information Technology Standards (INCITS). TRIM is implemented under the DATA SET MANAGEMENT command (opcode 06h) the draft ACS-2 specification.

A drawback of the original ATA TRIM command is that it was defined as a non-queueable command and therefore could not easily be mixed with a normal workload of queued read and write operations. SATA 3.1 introduced a queued TRIM command to remedy this.

SCSI

SCSI provides UNMAP command (full analog of TRIM) and WRITE SAME (10,16) commands with unmap flag.

SD/MMC

The MultiMediaCard and SD ERASE (CMD38) command provides similar functionality to the ATA TRIM command, although it requires that erased blocks be overwritten with either zeroes or ones. eMMC 4.5 further defines a "discard" sub-operation that more closely matches ATA TRIM in that the contents of discarded blocks can be considered indeterminate.

It is pure rubbish to suggest that TRIM is some Microsoft stuff.

Its simple, when the filesystem deletes a file, a notification is sent to the SSD to prepare the LBAs of the deleted file for rewrite.

FreeBSD added support for this standard in 8.1, Linux in 2.6.33, OS X in 10.6.8. In fact, if you knew anything, you would see options for ext4 and behaviors for linux swap files involving TRIM. But hey, just sling more BS, its the internet.
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November 17, 2012 6:42:51 PM

So anyway.

Sometime last month Samsung released a new version of Magician. Now things seem to be working correctly.

My problem was slow random writes: getting around 17K iops. Now they are closer to 30K, which is the stated limit. Also, all my other values are closer to the max, viz., 500+, 300+, 75K, 30K.

It says this is version 3.2 of Magician. Looks a little bit different; it shows speeds after you optimize.
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