Help with first time build - Budget Gaming

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Tibbs

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Hey folks. It's my first time building a PC, first time here on Tom's and I've been reading through the threads here, and to be honest it's a little overwhelming for a person who's limited in tech ability. I'm currently in the process of building a budget gaming PC. The only game I currently play is WoW, but I am looking forward to SC2 and D3. I'd like to go as cheap as possible and get the most bang for my buck.

APPROXIMATE PURCHASE DATE: This month (April 2010)

BUDGET RANGE: <750 after rebates (but ideally as low as possible)

SYSTEM USAGE FROM MOST TO LEAST IMPORTANT: gaming, school stuff

PARTS NOT REQUIRED: I get Windows 7 64-bit for $7 through my University so I'm ok on the OS. I've got a basic keyboard and mouse. I'll probably Craigslist a monitor (or I could use my HDTV) so for now I'm just concerned with the computer itself.

PREFERRED WEBSITE(S) FOR PARTS: newegg (the only one I've really seen much about)

COUNTRY OF ORIGIN: USA

OVERCLOCKING: I guess? Still trying to grasp this concept, currently trying to find a good article on what it is (I'm a tech noob)...

SLI OR CROSSFIRE: Same as above...

ADDITIONAL COMMENTS: I want a PC that is customizable and will last me a few years, can play WoW with really nice settings, and one that gives me the most bang for my buck

I've always thought that Intel was the way to go, but after reading through the threads here it seems that on a budget I should be looking for AMD. I found this combo deal on Newegg the other day and went with it. I realize now that I could change to an AMD processor and up the graphics card and probably stay around the same budget (hopefully less?)

Screenshot2010-04-05at14039PM.png


Screenshot2010-04-05at13938PM.png


Here is the link for the newegg combo.

The total, with rebates and shipping, will ultimately be around $730. Can I go lower price with an AMD X3? Should I stick with the i5 combo? I've never had an AMD and I don't know much about them.
 
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cmcghee358

cmcghee358

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The combo is listed as 601 dollars, so I can assume that the 130 dollar difference is a Gfx card? Which card are you getting?
 
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cmcghee358

cmcghee358

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Update19-103-808 AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition Deneb 3.2GHz Socket AM3 125W Quad-Core Processor Model HDZ955FBGMBOX - Retail
Model #:HDZ955FBGMBOX
Item #:N82E16819103808
Return Policy:CPU Replacement Only Return Policy
In Stock
Note (Add19-103-808)


Save Cancel $159.99 $159.99
. .
Update11-129-066 Antec Three Hundred Illusion Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail
Model #:Three Hundred Illusi
Item #:N82E16811129066
Return Policy:Limited Replacement Only Return Policy
In Stock
Note (Add11-129-066)


Save Cancel $69.99 $69.99
. .
Update13-128-419 GIGABYTE GA-770TA-UD3 AM3 AMD 770 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail
Model #:GA-770TA-UD3
Item #:N82E16813128419
Return Policy:Standard Return Policy
In Stock
Mail in Rebate Card13-128-419

Note (Add13-128-419)


Save Cancel $94.99 $94.99
. .
Update17-341-016 OCZ ModXStream Pro OCZ500MXSP 500W ATX12V V2.2 / EPS12V SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Modular Active PFC ... - Retail
Model #:OCZ500MXSP
Item #:N82E16817341016
Return Policy:Standard Return Policy
In Stock
Mail in Rebate Card17-341-016

Note (Add17-341-016)


Save Cancel $89.99 -$25.00 Instant $64.99
. .
Update22-152-181 SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD502HJ 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
Model #:HD502HJ
Item #:N82E16822152181
Return Policy:Standard Return Policy
In Stock
Note (Add22-152-181)


Save Cancel $54.99 $54.99
. .
Update14-121-363 ASUS CuCore Series EAH5770 CuCore/2DI/1GD5 Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.1 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support ... - Retail
Model #:EAH5770 CuC/2DI/1GD5
Item #:N82E16814121363
Return Policy:Limited Replacement Only Return Policy
In Stock
Note (Add14-121-363)


Save Cancel $169.99 $169.99
. .
Update20-220-286 Patriot Viper 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model PVS34G1333LLK - Retail
Model #:pVS34G1333LLK
Item #:N82E16820220286
Return Policy:Memory Standard Return Policy
In Stock
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Save Cancel $114.99 $114.99
Subtotal: $729.93

Sorry I dont know how to make a wish list public or get the link for newegg. Here is a good build I made for you, and it has 40 dollars more in mail-in rebates. That brings it to $689.93 before shipping.

I did splurge on some components like the 955 BE CPU, the 5770 and the Motherboard has USB 3.0 and SATA 6GB/s.

If you dont want all that fancy stuff I can probably get it down closer to $600 before shipping.

Also I am a fan of AMD for the performance vs. cost, so most of the builds I will make will be AMD.

Lemmie know what you think

Also you mentioned that you would like to play WoW on it, therefore all of the builds I will submit will be capable of playing WoW on Ultra settings (except mid-range shadow) with 50+ FPS
 
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banthracis

banthracis

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Typically in gaming you're better off with a better GPU than a CPU. Gaming is GPU limited in most cases in anything 3 cores or greater. Today's I3 article demonstrates this pretty well.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i3-gaming,2588-13.html

All that said, you're playing games people consider CPU intensive, but in all honesty, Blizzard games will run fine on max settings on 3 year old hardware.


Considering your price requirements, I can confidently tell you that for your needs, a Athlon II x3 is perfectly fine. So you can knock the build down a bit to about $620 or you can try to fit a 5850 into your budget. Gimme a few min and I'll see what I can do.
 
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cmcghee358

cmcghee358

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Well considering WoW uses 3 cores alone, I find having a 4th core to handle anything else that might be running seems to work just fine. And no, WoW won't play "Max" settings on a 3 year old computer.

Especially considering that a new expansion is coming soon, building a computer with the current games demand is near-sighted.

For WoW, a 5850 would be overkill. A 4850 would more than suffice, and a 5770 places squarely between a 5850 and a 4850 in terms of performance. While still giving him DX11.

It's really up to him, but imo limiting the CPU on a game that uses 3 cores is a mistake.
 
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banthracis

banthracis

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Read the article I linked. Gaming is nowhere near CPU limited. Everything from a $100 CPU to a $300 CPU performs the same w/ a 5850.

Read this article for an in debt look at how many cores you really need for gaming
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/multi-core-cpu,2280.html

Read the latest Marathon for how impressive an athlon II x3 compares to even the i7 lineup from intel.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/value-gaming-pc,2578.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/system-builder-marathon,2581-2.html

And WOW runs fine on my 3.5 year old rig at max settings. Core 2 duo E 6400 and HD 3870. Get ~34 FPS in Dal at 1440x900.






 
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banthracis

banthracis

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Anyway, here's a full build with a 5850 and Athlon II x3.


Optical
Light On $19.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106289

Case
Antec 300 Illlusion $69.99 (no change)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129066

MOBO
GIGABYTE GA-770TA-UD3 $94.99 (no Change)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128419

GPU
Sapphire 5850 $289.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102884
Will play anything at 1920x1080 at max settings with reasonable --> more than necessary frame rates.

RAM
G Skill Eco DDR3 1600 7-8-7-24 $119.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231321

A little more expensive, but low voltages and tighter timings. Worth it IMO.

CPU
Athlon II X3 435 Rana 2.9GHz
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103724

Great price/performance ratio. With the GA MOBO, you also have the possibility of unlocking the fourth core. It's pretty high chance with this model, but not guaranteed.

PSU/HD
OCZ Stealthxstream 700W and 720012. 500 GB
$114.98
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.362577
The 850 watt is the same price as the 700w after rebate, but you're actually not gonna be in the max efficiency zone of 40%-60% load with the 850W. Still the option IS there.
The 7200.12 is basically the same performance as a F3, slightly behind in some benchmarks, but not noticeably. It comes combed with the PSU for $20 off so I used it instead.

$784.92 Before $30 MIR and shipping.
If you don't need an optical (didn't include one in your build as previously mentioned) then it's $20 cheaper.

Alternatively, you could save $ 140 and grab this 5770 instead.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161317&cm_re=5770-_-14-161-317-_-Product
 
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Tibbs

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Hmmm both builds are really nice. But with banthracis's build, will the 5770 be ok? It'd save me 140 bucks, and if it'll still run WoW on max settings without too much trouble that'd be awesome.

i could try and overclock/unlock with the AMD but I'm not sure how I'd do that and I don't want to break it. If I unlock it and it doesn't work, is the CPU trashed? Once it's unlocked will it remain stable, or will I end up buying a new processor in 2 months?
 
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cmcghee358

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Oh I confused max settings with solid performance.

I don't know about other gamers, but I'd sooner lower my settings to get 60 FPS without any dips, than raise my settings, and lower my FPS by overhalf.

And you can quote the 29 FPS the human eye is capable of all you want, any gamer can easily tell the difference between 30 FPS and 60 FPS

Also I took 1 look at the date on the 1st link and didn't bother to read it. System/Game requirements from April 2009 are dated.

Also the athlonx3 435 in games like Crysis has a 20% increase with 4 cores. So gambling on unlocking a viable core might be exciting and all. But I'd spend the extra 80 bucks and get the 4th core for a 20% FPS increase.

Also proving that 4 cores can greatly impact a games performance
 
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cmcghee358

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Here's roughly how it works.

3 Core and most Dual Core processors started their life as Quad cores. But through testing 1 or 2 of the cores were shut down because they didnt mean the desired specifications of the intended full 4 core processor. So rather than throwing that processor away, they disabled the inadequate cores and sold it at a lower price with less cores.

This could mean a wide range of things. It could be that it no kidding has a dead core. This is rarely the case, sometimes it just slightly under performs of what the company desires.

It's a gamble is all it is. If you really want a 4 core processor buy one. If a Triple core, or Dual Core processor is all you want, then get it. Any unlocked cores are a bonus. Also remember those unlocked cores might not be as good as the spec'd cores the CPU comes with.

That could be it's just slower, it could cause crashes or it may just simply not work, drawing power without any benefit.

Like I said earlier, a 5850 seems like overkill for WoW, but with Cataclysm coming up it might be a sound investment.

I still play on a 4890 and I get over 200 FPS @ max settings in Ironforge, and I always get 60 FPS in Dalaran. (obviously this is with vertical sync off, as that limits your FPS to your monitor frequency, usually 60 Hz, or 60 FPS.)

To be honest, the best thing I can recommend is bump your budget up 100 bucks and get a Quad core with a 5850. If you cant afford it right now, sell some SNES games or wait a month and save another 100
 
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banthracis

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Unlocking is pretty easy, it's mostly enabling a few options in the bios.

Guide here
http://www.overclock.net/amd-cpus/535501-amd-phenom-ii-core-unlocking-guide.html

Here's Tom's Overclocking guide for these CPU's.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-cpu-overclock,2396.html


Honestly, overclocking is super easy and safe unless you go to really high voltages. Really no point in not since all it takes is a few setting changes in the bios and some stability testing (which can be done overnight).


to cmc:

The results from last year ARE valid for 2 reason: 1. The single most system intensive game is still Crysis, 3 years old. The highest mainstream CPU requiring game is oddly GTA IV, due to horrible porting.

Both these games were around last year, making that article relevant. In addition, Blizzard games are very much underwhelming in system requirements.

Also, you fail to address the other articles I linked showing 3 core CPU's to not be anything close to an issue. Both published in the last month, 1 of them today.


The one today was done WITH a 5850 AND a Phenom II x3, and showed it to be just as good as a i7-870. Basically the same, performance considering experimental error. The Phenom II x3 only difference from a Athlon II x3 is a larger cache, which makes a very small performance impact in gaming.

Regarding FPS. TV and movies run at 24 FPS, I don't see people complaining TV FPS is too low. Any major review site will regard anything above 30-35 (varies a bit depending on the site) perfectly playable.

Also, for the last time, WOW doesn't take a lot of processing power. Considering it runs at 82.9 FPS with a 5850 Max settings 8x AA. Crysis with same resolution and 4x AA is only 32.7 FPS
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2848/7

In fact, until next gen consoles come out (not until 2014 at the earliest), no major gaming company will be making games that won't work fine on 3 year old console tech. Crysis 2 might be the sole exception, though I'm not holding my breath since it's also supposed to play fine on consoles.

Here's a link to a Athlon II X3's full list of benchmarks

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/112

edit: If you want to see what a game really made using DX11 and the latest hardware (and not just a few market gimmick features) would look like, just dl and watch Heaven 2.0 Bench at max settings (including max tesselation).

Here's the youtube video of it, and yes, on a sufficient system you can render it in realtime.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HWZKGZcKoA
 
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banthracis

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I'd love to see where you get your numbers from.

You see, according to Paul here at Tom's, when talking about his $750 Athlon II x3 system in Crysis

The stock $750 PC delivers playable performance at high details through all the tested resolutions, and picks up an additional 15% increase from overclocking. The unlocked processor core makes very little difference here in this game.
Click to expand...

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/value-gaming-pc,2578-11.html

Looks to me like a 15% increase from OC of the CPU AND GPU, and almost no difference between 3 and 4 cores.

Start posting some evidence and benchmarks to back your points, or you'll just come off as another ignorant fanboi.
 
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cmcghee358

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Yeah was my mistake, I made the mistake of reading the OC 4 core and compared it to the 3 core stock.

I was unaware that the fanboi segregation has internalized to be between Athlon and Phenom.

Besides sniping, do you have any input to help the OP out?
 
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cmcghee358

cmcghee358

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You obviously don't play WoW. CPU makes a tremendous difference in places like Wintergrasp, 25 man raids and Dalaran for w/e reason. Once agian all I can say, is that according to the WoW website, it uses 3 cores now. How much of each core hard to say. But sharing that CPU across 3 cores, and having a leftover core to do anything else that windows desires is worth the 80 dollar cost to me.

Im not rich by any stretch of the imagination, but 80 dollars seems reasonable.

I also keep seeing people reference a "3 year old" computer. Was this a 3000 dollar computer from 3 years ago or a more reasonable 1200 build? Just curious. Im sure if I blew 7000 dollars on a new build like that one guy I could play current gen games for the next 3 years too.

But the point of my build is bang for buck compared to time.



 
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banthracis

banthracis

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Actually I do play WOW, Daggerspine, Horde, Pally.

My 3.5 years old Comp, E6400 Core 2 duo, HD 3870 which cost $1331.91 when I built it, plays the game fine maxed out with ~34 FPS in Dal at 1440 x 900. Get around 50 FPS elsewhere. Wintergrasp also runs about 34. Granted I haven't played using this comp since October 2009, but there's been no major changes in the game's hardware requirements since then.


My point is that a Phenom II X4 won't provide any major benefit over an Athlon II x3 in gaming, and given the OP's budget, overall his system would be better off for gaming with a 5850 and x3 rather than 5770 and x4.

I present the aforementioned articles, taken from 2 of the Top Hardware review sites, and multiple reviewers from each, as evidence to support this claim.
 
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cmcghee358

cmcghee358

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Just curious, is "maxed" Ultra?
 
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kelfen

kelfen

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that case might be a little small for a HD 5850 no?
 
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banthracis

banthracis

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Exact settings:
1440 x 900
60 HZ
24 bit color 1 x multisample
Vsync/triple buffering
Everything on high.
Specular lighting, death effect, projected textures.
No full screen glow (don't like the effect it does)




Case wise the Antec 300 will fit a 5850. A 5870 on the other hand... requires a saw =P
 
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cory1234

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I'm not really a fan of buy athlons..I would try to stick with Phenom IIs or the i5s.

You can build an i5 750 build with a 5830-5850 if you wait for good deals with your budget. I've seen some i5 750s go for $143 shipped brand new on ebay after Bing Cash Back.
 
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kelfen

kelfen

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is it a pain in the posterer to get it to fit? I personally kinda picky when it comes to building in small spaces cuz to me just not worth the headache
 
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banthracis

banthracis

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A 5850 will fit fine. You may need to leave the HD slot behind the card open to put the power cable in comfortably.

A 5870 on the other hand will "fit" but requires leaving the HD space open and maybe a little modding of the HD cage.
 
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cmcghee358

cmcghee358

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I just see you pushing 34 FPS in Dalaran with Max shadows on a 3000 series ATI. Sorry. Maybe you just have better luck than everyone else. /shrug

Max shadows drop my 4890 to 40 FPS. With Vsync off and my shadows at mid range I have 70 FPS in Dalaran. Shadows kill my 4890 and I am dubious a 3000 series could get above 20 FPS with shadows.
 
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