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What form will ATI's refresh take ?

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a c 130 U Graphics card
March 18, 2010 10:31:57 PM

Ok so earlier in the year ATI said they would refresh during the second half of 2010.
Has anyone heard anything else regarding this ? I'm just wondering /curious as to how or what form of improvement to expect.
Could it be possible with the talk of the 6 series being 32nm or some are even saying 28nm, that we get another tester card like the 4770 ?
The idea of a 5770 on a 32/28nm process is one I like the sound of very much :D  Especially if it could pull similar relative performance as the 4770 did.
Or should we just expect clock increases from a improved production process ?

Your thoughts please

Mactronix

More about : form ati refresh

a c 271 U Graphics card
March 18, 2010 10:39:38 PM

[:grahamlv:3] I'm going to hedge my bets and say that it's going to be PCIe compatible and require something called electricity to function. [:mousemonkey]
a b U Graphics card
March 18, 2010 10:56:53 PM

Mousemonkey said:
[:grahamlv:3] I'm going to hedge my bets and say that it's going to be PCIe compatible and require something called electricity to function. [:mousemonkey]


Very cautious on your bet I see, Mr. MM. Well, I'll take my chances on my statement.

There was an article at XBitLabs saying TSMC will go directly to 28nm instead of staying on 32nm: link

So that leads me to believe ATI might do another 4770 experiment on 28nm, wich might as well be very nice.

I have my doubts about naming (5790? 5775? lol), but they will certainly make a card proving the tech, at least my hopes are very high :p 

This might also mean that Fermi2 or an improved Fermi product might spawn right after this step to 28nm.

Cheers!
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a b U Graphics card
March 18, 2010 11:16:55 PM

i imagine something similar to the last gen 4890. (a 5890)

a slightly more powerful card, cooler and with more OC potential thanks to a die-shrink.

im pretty sure it will be at the high end though, since ATI will want to pull out all the stops to out perform fermi.
a c 271 U Graphics card
March 18, 2010 11:30:32 PM

Yuka said:
Very cautious on your bet I see, Mr. MM

Seeing as I can't even begin to pronounce Hecatoncheires I thought I'd give myself some room to manoeuvre. :lol: 
a b U Graphics card
March 19, 2010 12:00:04 AM

2102082,3,86651 said:
This might also mean that Fermi2 or an improved Fermi product might spawn right after this step to 28nm.
said:


28nm SHOULD have really been Fermi1, Nvidia were behind ATI from the off, they should have just conceded 2010 and got a 28nm Fermi wafer taped out by mid to late 2010 and have a release date christmas time. At least it would have given them time to actually get to grips with this new complicated chip design and optimise etc. Oh well.
a b U Graphics card
March 19, 2010 12:00:30 AM

I can't remember which forum I read, but I thought that they were going away with the 5850, 5870 and 5970.

The only oneI can remember is that 5970 replacement was the 5990 or something like that.

In terms of the die size, I am not sure, but if they stay true to their track record, we will see ATi trying new things with new technology.
a b U Graphics card
March 19, 2010 1:55:33 AM

the 5990 is not an ATI design, its just a 3rd party pre-overclocked 5890 with an extra 2gb VRAM.

i severely doubt that ATI would just do away with these cards, even if they replace them with better ones. not a great use of the R+d poured into them.
a c 130 U Graphics card
March 19, 2010 8:01:53 AM

Seems Yuka and myself have the same hopes, I must say that what welshmousepk posted does make a lot of business sense. I guess if they can shrink the die and get the clocks up they should end up with something capable of keeping the crown in the ATI camp. They can prove the process while making a limited run of top end 5 series cards to hold top performance untill the 6 series comes along.

Mactronix
a b U Graphics card
March 19, 2010 12:38:18 PM

Griffolion said:
2102082,3,86651 said:
This might also mean that Fermi2 or an improved Fermi product might spawn right after this step to 28nm.
said:


28nm SHOULD have really been Fermi1, Nvidia were behind ATI from the off, they should have just conceded 2010 and got a 28nm Fermi wafer taped out by mid to late 2010 and have a release date christmas time. At least it would have given them time to actually get to grips with this new complicated chip design and optimise etc. Oh well.
said:
said:



That could have worked but Nvidia had already given up on the 200-series cards and they were in short supply. So if they waited out 28nm, it could have been more disasterous.

a b U Graphics card
March 19, 2010 10:10:46 PM

jonpaul37 said:
That could have worked but Nvidia had already given up on the 200-series cards and they were in short supply. So if they waited out 28nm, it could have been more disasterous.


They prolly had a roadmap for the GT220/240 base chip (DX10.1), but the 5xxx series came out way early (for them) and had to force Fermi development with a gun at hand :p 

Anyway, I just read this on TechReport: link.

Kind words are always great, but I wonder if they can turn nVidia's very tight tech way of developing (competition wise, not developers-TWIMTBP wise). On a simple analysis, I'd say nVidia gets more market when sharing tech and not overloading us with PR/Marketing crap.

Cheers!
a b U Graphics card
March 19, 2010 11:20:34 PM

Don't you think its a bit early to drop to 28nm, i mean, they just got done having problems with 40nm
a b U Graphics card
March 19, 2010 11:35:03 PM

uncfan_2563 said:
Don't you think its a bit early to drop to 28nm, i mean, they just got done having problems with 40nm


That's a big unknown for me at least. It would depend on the lithography process itself.

Cheers!
March 20, 2010 2:01:12 AM

nVidia are having serious execution problems, and have been for a while.

i think they have a problem with their philosophy and attitude more than anything else. they have to bite the bullet and accept that ATI got it right and they were wrong. they cant go on making huge chips that are 6-9 months later than ati's because that would be financially ruinous.

ATI wont change anything because their system is proven to be far better, so why should they change anything with a refresh? they will just keep doing what works.
a b U Graphics card
March 20, 2010 2:13:53 AM

they cant just keep selling the same cards forever though nfail...

March 20, 2010 2:22:01 AM

true, and they will change things a little. i just dont think we're gonna see huge changes while nVidia can't compete.

all i see from ATI for the next few years is more fps, better eyefinity etc. i think they will surprise the hell out of us within 2 years, showing the first 360 degree "holodeck".
a b U Graphics card
March 20, 2010 2:51:18 AM

Now that I would like! But, would a console port look good on a holodeck? As that is likely all that will be left by then.
a b U Graphics card
March 20, 2010 3:34:09 AM

nfail said:

all i see from ATI for the next few years is more fps, better eyefinity etc. i think they will surprise the hell out of us within 2 years, showing the first 360 degree "holodeck".


Well duh we're getting more fps.. what the heck else would we get?

I don't agree with the opinion that NVIDIA isn't competitive. I think ATI definitely needs a refresh, like a 5890, to keep up in the high end single gpu cards IF the GTX 480 is really as fast as they say
March 20, 2010 7:31:38 AM

I agree with the posters who think nothing major will occur for ATI anytime soon. All they need to be doing continue to improve drivers for the 5000 series, get even better yields and thus lower prices more. They might release limited quantities of the 28nm part in a limited edition card, but I dont see a full redesigned 6 series while there is no strong pressure from nvidia.
a b U Graphics card
March 20, 2010 12:18:19 PM

Oh, the 6 series will be already far through development (done design wise essentially) at this point, so I imagine that will continue full speed ahead.
a c 130 U Graphics card
March 20, 2010 12:36:23 PM

If ATI's 6K series skips through the 32nm and heads to 28nm, that will be very good. Since ATI has always been the one to do new processes, ATI will have more experience, and can put better thins on the process. Ntm power consumption/yields.

Extremely cheap value/performance cards, very good p/p high-performance/enthusiast cards, and huge high-enthusiast/premium cards. Then the even bigger high-premium card made by its manufacturing partners.

Oh the joy.
March 20, 2010 1:48:10 PM

Well, last I read, GF is supposed to start testing the 28nm runs in june/july, seems to be just in time for this refresh. Wouldn't suprise me at all to see AMD start to dump off TSMC after the 40nm fiasco.
a b U Graphics card
March 20, 2010 4:31:00 PM

"Testing" doesn't quite sound to me like the ability to start making extremely complex chips yet. Might not be until the following gen, but I guess we'll see.
a b U Graphics card
March 20, 2010 10:39:23 PM

I'm guessing a 5790 or 5690 based on 32/28nm and a OC'ed 5870 into a 5890.
March 20, 2010 10:47:30 PM

if ATI were going to release a 5890 they wouldnt allow their partners to overclock the 5870 to 1ghz already.
a b U Graphics card
March 20, 2010 11:06:49 PM

Not quite. Naming is not so important when you know what's under the hood IMO.

If they build a 5890 on a 28nm process, they might be able to clock it even higher than 1Ghz and pair it with *really* high speed GDDR5. Partners might use another number for these type of cards (like the 9800GTX and 9800GTX+).

Cheers!
a b U Graphics card
March 20, 2010 11:14:44 PM

ATI tweaked the RV770 into the RV790, you can't reach 4890 speeds with a 4870, ATI will probably tweak Cypress.
March 20, 2010 11:26:06 PM

but if you think about it, the 4890 isnt much more than a 4870 with 100 mhz extra clock speed and another 100-150mhz overclockability on top of that.

the 4890 was just a highly overclockable 4870 so a 5890 would need to be very, very overclockable to justify its name, like 1200 mhz or something and i dont see that happening at 40nm. 28nm, hell ye thats possible.
a b U Graphics card
March 20, 2010 11:40:07 PM

nfail said:
but if you think about it, the 4890 isnt much more than a 4870 with 100 mhz extra clock speed and another 100-150mhz overclockability on top of that.

the 4890 was just a highly overclockable 4870 so a 5890 would need to be very, very overclockable to justify its name, like 1200 mhz or something and i dont see that happening at 40nm. 28nm, hell ye thats possible.


not really, if you've ever used a 4890 you know its much more than that.

and to be fair, thats all a 5890 would need to be. if the gtx480 is 10 percent faster than a 5870, then in order to put the final nail in the green coffin, ATI simply need to release a 5890 thats 10 percent faster for the same price (and has more OCing headroom).

then suddenly there would be no way to justify the purchase of an nvidia card.
a b U Graphics card
March 20, 2010 11:51:01 PM

welshmousepk said:
not really, if you've ever used a 4890 you know its much more than that.

and to be fair, thats all a 5890 would need to be. if the gtx480 is 10 percent faster than a 5870, then in order to put the final nail in the green coffin, ATI simply need to release a 5890 thats 10 percent faster for the same price (and has more OCing headroom).

then suddenly there would be no way to justify the purchase of an nvidia card.


You mean there ever was?
a c 130 U Graphics card
March 20, 2010 11:57:15 PM

$70 pricepoint: 9600Gt.
March 20, 2010 11:57:55 PM

welshmousepk said:
not really, if you've ever used a 4890 you know its much more than that.


its not, the 4890 is just a 4870 with higher clocks. it has the same shaders and everything, but improved power management helped it to overclock higher.

Quote:
and to be fair, thats all a 5890 would need to be. if the gtx480 is 10 percent faster than a 5870, then in order to put the final nail in the green coffin, ATI simply need to release a 5890 thats 10 percent faster for the same price (and has more OCing headroom).

then suddenly there would be no way to justify the purchase of an nvidia card.


but thats what i'm saying.

the 4870 was a nice card but it cant overclock for ***. the 4890 was 100mhz higher and could overclock really well. if you take the best of the best chips and add those little things then you end up with a really nice card. thats what the 4890 was 9 months later.

the 5870 is already a great overclocker so a simple overclock wont have the same effect. powercolor and others have already got their 1ghz 5870's ready. i dont think we will see a 5890 like the 4890 we got last year because of that, what i mean is a highly overclocked 5870 should be good enough to beat the 480 anyway.
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2010 12:09:58 AM

nfail said:
its not, the 4890 is just a 4870 with higher clocks. it has the same shaders and everything, but improved power management helped it to overclock higher.

Quote:
and to be fair, thats all a 5890 would need to be. if the gtx480 is 10 percent faster than a 5870, then in order to put the final nail in the green coffin, ATI simply need to release a 5890 thats 10 percent faster for the same price (and has more OCing headroom).

then suddenly there would be no way to justify the purchase of an nvidia card.


but thats what i'm saying.

the 4870 was a nice card but it cant overclock for ***. the 4890 was 100mhz higher and could overclock really well. if you take the best of the best chips and add those little things then you end up with a really nice card. thats what the 4890 was 9 months later.

the 5870 is already a great overclocker so a simple overclock wont have the same effect. powercolor and others have already got their 1ghz 5870's ready. i dont think we will see a 5890 like the 4890 we got last year because of that, what i mean is a highly overclocked 5870 should be good enough to beat the 480 anyway.


but with a a die-shrink we could see considerably lower heat output, imagine 1000mhz on stock volts, with the ability to hit close to the 1200 mark?
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2010 12:27:40 AM

I have my 4890 running a 950Mhz while playing and no sweat. Sapphire coolers FTW :p 

So, yeah... A 5890 on a 28nm + some tweaks might become a monster card in the right price point P/P wise.

Cheers!
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2010 2:06:46 AM

The 4890 is actually changed a bit to achieve those higher clocks. It is not just a higher OC'ed card with a better BIOS or something. Not a major revision for sure, but a revision nonetheless.

"
A minor update was introduced on April 2, 2009 with the launch of Radeon HD 4890 graphics cards based on the RV790 GPU. Featuring an improved design with decoupling capacitors to reduce signal noise, altered ASIC power distribution and re-timed the whole GPU chip, which resulted in a slight increase in die size but overall much better stability at high clock rates.
"

(Bad source but it is correct)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_R700
a c 130 U Graphics card
March 21, 2010 8:17:21 PM

I cant see ATI sitting on its laurels like Nvidia did we all know where that ended up don't we, hopefully they will keep pushing boundaries and changing arch and process to give us the best possible experience.
Someone mentioned something about power/perf at a good price back there somewhere, due to die shrinking. that's just not happening as far as i can see.
Just look at what we have now, with the exception of the 4770 which was basically an experiment we are paying a good high price for our performance.
Sure if its better than what came before then they are entitled to ask for more but that cant go on for ever. The 5770 cant have cost that much more to actually build than a 4770 so why is it twice the price ? Build costs just don't come into it. Its what the chip can do that decides what they ask for it.

Mactronix

Oh and the 4890 is basically a 4870 but yes it was changed a little to increase the overclock available, what EXT64 posted is right as far as i understand it. Not changed enough to be considered a differant chip in my opinion but certainly enough that you can tell the differance differance. :D 
a b U Graphics card
March 21, 2010 8:35:48 PM

Yep, not a big difference, its just I got burned in the past for implying it was identical more or less, so now I always like to point out the differences :lol: 
March 21, 2010 10:30:06 PM

4890 has 3 million more transistors.
And lower power usage at idle.
a b U Graphics card
March 22, 2010 9:25:13 PM

Aren't the partners already doing that? Really that message means to me they are happy with their position as is.
a b U Graphics card
March 22, 2010 10:01:23 PM

I read somewhere (I think Toms) that AMD won't let partners OC the 5870 beyond 1000Mhz factory. I can't find the article, but AMD basically won't allow them to do that. So, a 5890 (or whatever XD) should be 1Ghz+ IMO.

Cheers!
March 22, 2010 10:07:26 PM

I'm hoping for a 5890, a OC'd 5870 built on 32nm/28nm.
a b U Graphics card
March 22, 2010 10:22:00 PM

builderbobftw said:
I'm hoping for a 5890, a OC'd 5870 built on 32nm/28nm.

not going to happen.



I'm thinking it'll just be higher binned chips with some optimizations, similar to what we saw with the 4890
March 22, 2010 10:23:35 PM

The 4890 had like 3M more tansitors right?
a b U Graphics card
March 22, 2010 10:45:22 PM

Yep, it was modified a bit to get higher clocks. However, the 5870 already OCes pretty decently, so perhaps it isn't as necessary this time around.
March 22, 2010 10:47:28 PM

Right, But a Die shrink and an OC would just own the GTs 480, something ATI has to be intrested in.
a b U Graphics card
March 22, 2010 10:59:48 PM

Oh definitely. I just think with all the issues with 40nm, it might take a little while to get the next process fully operational.
a c 130 U Graphics card
March 22, 2010 11:16:49 PM

You all have to remember, look at this.

HD4850 -> GTS250
HD4870 -> GTX260 Core 216
HD4890 -> GTX275/GTX285

Whilst..

HD5850 -> GTX470
HD5870 -> GTX480
HD5890 -> (?(GTX485))
(Possible?)HD5950 -> GTX495 (assuming 2xGTX470).
(Possible?)HD5930 -> GTX485?
a b U Graphics card
March 22, 2010 11:50:51 PM

EXT64 said:
Oh definitely. I just think with all the issues with 40nm, it might take a little while to get the next process fully operational.

well you could look at this with the "glass half full or glass half empty" mentality. They could be looking to jump off of 40nm asap and move to 28nm.



Now, i do doubt that ATi is going to care that nvidia's top notch single gpu beats them by a bit. They didn't seem to care last gen and i dont see it happening now. It already looks like they're going to win the Price/Performance category again
a c 130 U Graphics card
March 23, 2010 12:20:47 AM

While it seem sto make more sense to ues the high end for the die shrink this time it would still be cheaper and keep a certain segment happy if they released a 5790 type card which would equate to the 4770 so it would b ereally a 5660 ?
Either way i dont think peopl ein th eknow would buy iy this time and would wait for the 6 series,

Mactronix
!