Help build a Java Crunching Beast - Mini ITX

[smittyline]

Please help me build a computer solely for developing Java applications off-line. No network connection and no 3D gaming. There will be almost no multi-tasking either. Just Java, Java, Java and I want decent compilation speed.

An example of an ideal form factor:

APPROXIMATE PURCHASE DATE: This week

BUDGET RANGE: Max. $1,000

SYSTEM USAGE FROM MOST TO LEAST IMPORTANT: Java programming - compile speed is the biggest concern.

PARTS NOT REQUIRED: I need nothing other than a basic computer with a few USB ports.

PREFERRED WEBSITE(S) FOR PARTS: newegg.com, ncix.com, any website

PARTS PREFERENCES: Whatever compiles Java and C/C++ fast. Small Mini ITX form.

OVERCLOCKING: Yes, if applicable.

MONITOR RESOLUTION: 1280x1024 or higher

========

Final Build List:

Case: M350 Universal Mini-ITX enclosure - $40

Motherboard with onboard GPU: ZOTAC H55ITX-A-E LGA 1156 Intel H55 HDMI Mini ITX Intel Motherboard - Retail - $135

CPU: Intel Core i3-530 Clarkdale 2.93GHz 4MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 73W Dual-Core Desktop Processor - Retail - $120

CPU cooler: Dynatron K199 80mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler - $29.99

Hard drive: Kingston SSDNow V Series 30GB 2.5IN SATA Solid State Disk Flash Drive - $69.99 on sale

RAM: G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F3-10666CL8D-4GBHK - Retail - $109

PSU kit (discounted combo deal):
150w AC-DC Power Adapter, 12v 12.5A - $39.95 *BARREL CONNECTOR VERSION
PICOPSU-150-XT - $29.00

Total: $592.95

 

[shortstuff_mt]

I wouldn't build around the dead-end LGA 775 socket. Any new build deserves to use modern technology. Here's my suggestions:

Intel Core i3-530 Clarkdale 2.93GHz 4MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 73W Dual-Core Desktop Processor - Retail $119.99

ZOTAC H55ITX-A-E LGA 1156 Intel H55 HDMI Mini ITX Intel Motherboard - Retail $134.99

You should also really think about getting 4GB of RAM even if you don't think you need it right now.

G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F3-10666CL8D-4GBHK - Retail $108.99

 

[smittyline]

That motherboard appears to have no onboard video (according to specs).. which means that I have to use a case 3x larger to accommodate a video card.

Or am I wrong? I do see a DVI port on that mobo.

Thanks!

 

[shortstuff_mt]

The motherboard DOES have onboard video. All H55 motherboards have onboard video.

 

[smittyline]

Thanks. Apparently the onboard video won't function with some CPUs, but the one you suggested (Intel i3-530) should work. Updated build list below. Will order tomorrow unless anyone has further suggestions.

Case: M350 Universal Mini-ITX enclosure - $40

Motherboard with onboard GPU: ZOTAC H55ITX-A-E LGA 1156 Intel H55 HDMI Mini ITX Intel Motherboard - Retail - $135

CPU: Intel Core i3-530 Clarkdale 2.93GHz 4MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 73W Dual-Core Desktop Processor - Retail - $120

Hard drive: OCZ Vertex Turbo 30GB SSD - $120 after MIR

RAM: G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F3-10666CL8D-4GBHK - Retail - $109

PSU: picoPSU-120 + 80W Adapter - $50

Total: $574

Good stuff. I assume that I still don't need a Quad-Core CPU.

 

[shortstuff_mt]

No Intel quad cores have an integrated GPU. If you went with a quad core you would also have to buy a separate GPU and a larger case.

 

[Shadow703793]

Looks good, BUT why mITX? Why not mATX? Imo, I'd go with a decent AMD X4 for Java work.

 

[geofelt]

I helped a friend build a PC for scientific calculations. We used a 32nm clarkdale i5-660. It was a burner. Stock speed is 3.33, with a turbo up to 3.6ghz.
The nehalem series cpu's are about 15% faster than the core2 cpu's on a clock for clock basis.
I see no benefit to a Quad in your environment. Note that the i7-660 is a duo that has hyperthreading.

We used a gigabyte GA-H55M-S2H:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128420

I would suggest a 4gb kit of 2 x 2gb. I can't talk to java, but compilers I know of can take advantage of all the ram they can get. Ram is cheap, and I see no downside to 4gb.

I do not know how the performance of the OCZ vertex turbo SSD compares to the intel offerings. In general, it has been my observation that the Intel offerings are better across the board today.
For the best performance, look th the intel X25-E 32gb drive:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167013
It is pricey, at $369 but there is nothing better out there.
I think you would be safe with the intel X25-M gen2 80gb drive, or possibly the intel X25-V 40gb drive.
Research this carefully, and look for real performance of application numbers, not synthetic benchmarks. Also look for tests done in a well used environment.

I would use windows-7. It knows how to manage ssd's with trim, and also how to manage cpu's with hyperthreading.

 

[smittyline]

shortstuff_mt: I see.

shadow: I probably won't even save more than $40 if I go the mATX route. The specs posted here are probably good enough for my needs. I like the small form factor and it will be mounted under my desk (with $2.50 mounts designed for this M350 case).

 

[smittyline]

geofelt: Thanks for the info!

shadow: Since you mentioned AMD, I did a bit of research out of curiosity and wow.. there's a $45 Zotac mITX motherboard with a AM2+ and AM3 compatible socket:

ZOTAC GF6100-E-E AM3/AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA nForce 430 MCP Mini ITX AMD Motherboard - Retail - $45

AMD Athlon II X2 250 Regor 3.0GHz Socket AM3 65W Dual-Core Processor Model ADX250OCGQBOX - Retail - $65

Not only it has a slightly faster clock speed than the Intel i3-530 2.93GHz, it also consumes less power (65W vs. 73W). Is this AMD a good alternative? I've always had this feeling that the more expensive Intel processors are better for crunching math and sciencey stuff, or is this a myth?

Stronger AMD Dual-Core processors:

AMD Athlon II X2 255 Regor 3.1GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM3 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor - Retail - $75

This one will require a PSU upgrade. With the same clock speed is it even worth it?:

AMD Phenom II X2 550 Callisto 3.1GHz 2 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 80W Dual-Core Desktop Processor - Retail - $88

 

[shortstuff_mt]

The Intel chip will outperform those AMD chips because they're faster clock-for-clock. There are also faster i3 and i5 dual core Intel chips available, but I have a hard time justifying the higher price. I would stick with the i3 530 if it was me.

 

[geofelt]

For a mini-atx H55/H57 motherboard, there are few choices, but Intel should be good:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121401

If this application is for your livelihood, and your budget is $1000, consider spending it.

Remorse over what could have been lasts much longer than the sweetness of a cheap price.

 

[shortstuff_mt]

I saw that Intel board, but Intel doesn't use the highest quality components on their motherboards. I would much rather spend the extra $15 on the Zotac board.

 

[smittyline]

I have a Zotac miniITX Atom CPU board for my HTPC and my only complaint is that its BIOS does not support >3GB RAM. Other people have the same problems.

However this Zotac 1156 Intel board apparently supports up to 8GB RAM.

I was looking at that Intel mITX board too. I'll stick with Zotac I think.

 

[smittyline]

Interesting: Intel's compiler deliberately and knowingly cripples performance for non-Intel (AMD/VIA) processors

Anyway, I googled for benchmarks and the Intel i3-530 CPU appears faster than the AMD 3.1GHz. That's for encoding videos, WinRAR compression, and pretty much everything else. Even the i3-530 CPU's power consumption is supposedly lower. I think it's safer to stick with Intel for this project.

This forum is the best. After only 1 hour of posting this, I gained all the information and confidence I need to purchase the build tonight. Thank you!

 

[shortstuff_mt]

No problem. Good luck with the build! Let us know how it turns out. I wouldn't mind building something like that for my next HTPC.

 

[Shadow703793]

The Intel chip will outperform those AMD chips because they're faster clock-for-clock. There are also faster i3 and i5 dual core Intel chips available, but I have a hard time justifying the higher price. I would stick with the i3 530 if it was me.

Indeed, just took a look at the benches :lol: And +1 for the i3.

@OP: Go with 4GB, I'm assuming you will be using NetBeans, where the 4GB will help if doing multi-tasking. Anyways, how complex are your programs going to be?

 

[Shadow703793]

No problem. Good luck with the build! Let us know how it turns out. I wouldn't mind building something like that for my next HTPC.

+1. My Atom HTPCs showing it's age with what I'm doing with it lol. I plan to turn this in to another NAS and get a i3 (like this set up, except mATX and different case) with a 5750.

 

[smittyline]

@OP: Go with 4GB, I'm assuming you will be using NetBeans, where the 4GB will help if doing multi-tasking. Anyways, how complex are your programs going to be?

Yes I'm using NetBeans, and the app will be slightly more complex than MS Word. It also draws 3D using OpenGL but I don't really need hardware acceleration for that. I'm currently developing it on my desktop computer which is a mini-itx Atom and with hardware accel. turned off, the 3D stuff runs smooth enough.

 

[Shadow703793]

pp will be slightly more complex than MS Word. It also draws 3D using OpenGL

Oh? Why do I have the feeling this is not as "simple" as it sound.... :lol:

PS: If possible, use multi threading! It's the future!

 

[smittyline]

+1. My Atom HTPCs showing it's age with what I'm doing with it lol. I plan to turn this in to another NAS and get a i3 (like this set up, except mATX and different case) with a 5750.

I have two Atom-based HTPCs, both with identical 30GB SSDs and identical or similar onboard GPU if I remember correctly. One is a Acer Revo desktop computer with a single-core Atom running Windows 7 and the other is a Zotac mini-itx with dual-core N330 or something (it's been several months since I built it), with Windows XP. The Zotac version runs 1080p much smoother, I believe mostly due to part of Windows XP and better software configuration. I'd rate it a 9.5 out of 10. A straight BD rip is a 9.0 out of 10 (a little more jitter but not really that noticeable). I might be able to perfect it, but I spent 5+ hours configuring software and I had enough. BTW I tested both XP and Win7 on exact same hardware with exact same drivers, etc. and Win7 always had about at least 5% more CPU load with noticeably reduced movie performace.

With a i3 Intel or whatever and a decent video card it'll be plug-n-play for 100% smooth 1080p playback. They consume a lot more power but that's not a big deal if you're only watching 2-4 hours of video a week.

 

[Shadow703793]

^ I rip a lot of DVDs/BD and the Atom just doesn't have the speed that I want :lol:

 

[smittyline]

Important Update

All parts have been ordered except for a SSD.

Cheaper SSDs are poorly suited for compiling/building projects. They are slower at writing small files.

An average .java or .c file may be 1KB-10KB in size so the 2-8KB write tests on the web may be a good way to determine build performance with various hard drives.

According to benchmarks the OCZ Vertex Turbo 30GB SSD has a marginally higher write speed (4kb test) than a Velocirator 10,000 RPM HD. So this drive should be OK.

However, the best possible solution is to use RAMDisk, which reserves a portion of RAM space as a virtual drive for build projects. This blows the pants off any hard drive for performance and a minimum of 4GB RAM is a good idea. I'm glad I bought 4GB instead of 2GB as suggested here!

I'm still going to get a SSD as it will make my desktop environment more responsive. I'll probably purchase the cheaper Kingston 30GB SSD ($75) with TRIM support in Windows 7. It has a low 50MB/sec write speed with large files (OCZ Vertex SSD is 140mb/s and Velociraptor 10,000RPM is ~100mb/s), but RAMDisk will keep my Java build performance at its peak. I'll look into OC'ing RAM if it helps

I hope this info helps others who are looking to do a similar build.

 

[smittyline]

I already bought RAM, but concerning RAM performance (including RamDisk) should I have gone with this one?

G.SKILL ECO Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Desktop Memory

The RAM we chose earlier has a CAS latency of 9 @ 1.5v. This one has CAS 7 @ 1.35v and it only costs $11 more.

 

[geofelt]

Not to worry. Benchmarks of real application throughput(vs. synthetic benchmarks) show that there is perhaps a 1-3% difference between the fastest 1600 ram and slower 1066 ram. That's not enough to get excited about. If 4gb gives you enough ramdisk for your work, fine. But consider 8gb if it gives you enough to hold all your work in the ramdisk. There is no performance negative to having too much ram, and ram is relatively cheap.