LCD's and THIEF

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

Is there an LCD out there that can properly render the shades of black
that THIEF requires to maintain its sense of atmosphere?

I tried a three year old LCD that a friend has -- normal lighting
effects were great, but the dark murkiness of THIEF just wasn't there --
no matter what settings I used it was just too washed out.

Perhaps the new LCD versions have been improved enough -- "they" claim
that that have. But I need an unbiased opinion before I spend the big
bucks. Thanks.

Bob
12 answers Last reply
More about thief
  1. Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

    "Bob Fairbank" <rhf28@crosslink.net> kirjoitti
    viestissä:423B2917.36B5D8FD@crosslink.net...
    > Is there an LCD out there that can properly render the shades of black
    > that THIEF requires to maintain its sense of atmosphere?

    A Finnish computer magazine 'Mikro Bitti' recently reviewed 17" digital
    (with dvi-interfaces) LCD displays. In their article they mentioned LG
    1710P, Samsung Syncmaster 172x, and BenQ FP783 displays that performed
    particularily well when they tested the capability to display dark tones
    with...ta-da! -- "Thief: The Dark Project". :)

    Eizo, Acer, and Fujitsu-Siemens displays that were tested didn't perform
    equally well in that particular test.

    - Mika L
  2. Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

    "Mika Latokartano"
    <mika.latokartano@REMOVETHIS.kolumbus.fi.invalid> wrote in
    message news:d1fail$npm$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi
    > "Bob Fairbank" <rhf28@crosslink.net> kirjoitti
    > viestissä:423B2917.36B5D8FD@crosslink.net...
    >> Is there an LCD out there that can properly render the
    >> shades of black that THIEF requires to maintain its
    >> sense of atmosphere?
    >
    > A Finnish computer magazine 'Mikro Bitti' recently
    > reviewed 17" digital (with dvi-interfaces) LCD displays. In their article
    > they mentioned LG 1710P, Samsung
    > Syncmaster 172x, and BenQ FP783 displays that performed
    > particularily well when they tested the capability to
    > display dark tones with...ta-da! -- "Thief: The Dark
    > Project". :)
    > Eizo, Acer, and Fujitsu-Siemens displays that were tested
    > didn't perform equally well in that particular test.
    >
    > - Mika L

    I've read the CRTs are better for gaming than LCDs.
  3. Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

    >>>>> "M" == Mos <Not@YourHouse> writes:

    M> I've read the CRTs are better for gaming than LCDs.

    Depends on how you define "better". I gave up CRTs a long time ago
    and certainly wouldn't give up the desk space and superlative image
    quality to go back to sitting in front of an X-ray machine.

    Where Thief is concerned, an LCD will actually go perfectly black
    while a CRT generally won't, so I'd say that they better reproduce the
    shadows that are so important. What many players find disorienting is
    the way objects leave trails on the screen. On a CRT, bright objects
    leave light trails, while on an LCD dark objects leave dark trails.
    Modern fast-response panels limit this effect. I personally play on a
    Samsung 191N or 191Tplus with a 25ms response time and I can't say
    that I see amy appreciable display artifacts that effect play.

    But perhaps I'm not as demanding as some.

    - J<
  4. Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

    "Mos" <Not@YourHouse> kirjoitti
    viestissä:Z9adnQSfFaYBpabfRVn-iA@pcisys.net...
    >
    >
    > "Mika Latokartano"
    > <mika.latokartano@REMOVETHIS.kolumbus.fi.invalid> wrote in
    > message news:d1fail$npm$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi
    >> "Bob Fairbank" <rhf28@crosslink.net> kirjoitti
    >> viestissä:423B2917.36B5D8FD@crosslink.net...
    >>> Is there an LCD out there that can properly render the
    >>> shades of black that THIEF requires to maintain its
    >>> sense of atmosphere?
    >>
    >> A Finnish computer magazine 'Mikro Bitti' recently
    >> reviewed 17" digital (with dvi-interfaces) LCD displays. In their article
    >> they mentioned LG 1710P, Samsung
    >> Syncmaster 172x, and BenQ FP783 displays that performed
    >> particularily well when they tested the capability to
    >> display dark tones with...ta-da! -- "Thief: The Dark
    >> Project". :)
    >> Eizo, Acer, and Fujitsu-Siemens displays that were tested
    >> didn't perform equally well in that particular test.
    >>
    >> - Mika L
    >
    > I've read the CRTs are better for gaming than LCDs.

    Oh, yes, but that's pretty much been a given so far. For now, we're just
    discussing the perfomance of LCD displays in particular.

    - Mika L
  5. Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

    On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:34:16 +0200, "Mika Latokartano"
    <mika.latokartano@REMOVETHIS.kolumbus.fi.invalid> wrote:
    >
    >"Mos" <Not@YourHouse> kirjoitti
    >viestissä:Z9adnQSfFaYBpabfRVn-iA@pcisys.net...

    >> I've read the CRTs are better for gaming than LCDs.
    >
    >Oh, yes, but that's pretty much been a given so far. For now, we're just
    >discussing the perfomance of LCD displays in particular.

    Viewsonic has just been demonstrating their new line of LCDs with 4ms
    grey-grey response times and 5ms black-white response times. I'm not a
    big fan of Viewsonic but that's pretty sweet.

    --
    Michael Cecil
    http://home.comcast.net/~macecil/
    http://home.comcast.net/~safehex/
  6. Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

    "Jason L Tibbitts III" <tibbs@math.uh.edu> wrote in message
    news:ufa64zonuan.fsf@epithumia.math.uh.edu...
    >>>>>> "M" == Mos <Not@YourHouse> writes:
    >
    > M> I've read the CRTs are better for gaming than LCDs.
    >
    > Depends on how you define "better". I gave up CRTs a long time ago
    > and certainly wouldn't give up the desk space and superlative image
    > quality to go back to sitting in front of an X-ray machine.
    >
    > Where Thief is concerned, an LCD will actually go perfectly black
    > while a CRT generally won't, so I'd say that they better reproduce the
    > shadows that are so important. What many players find disorienting is
    > the way objects leave trails on the screen. On a CRT, bright objects
    > leave light trails, while on an LCD dark objects leave dark trails.
    > Modern fast-response panels limit this effect. I personally play on a
    > Samsung 191N or 191Tplus with a 25ms response time and I can't say
    > that I see amy appreciable display artifacts that effect play.
    >
    > But perhaps I'm not as demanding as some.

    Nope, gonna have to disagree with this.

    CRTs render far better blacks than LCDs because a CRT's default state *is*
    black - it's just a case of turning off the electron gun, leaving black
    phosphor. With an LCD, its default state is fully lit (white) - the
    backlight has to be masked by black pixels, so inevitably some of that light
    leaks through, giving the washed-out grey look. I had a Dell 2001FP for a
    while, and the backlight leakage was horrendous - it's probably better on
    other panels (or at least I sincerely hope it is), but Thief looked
    terrible, with absolutely no distinction between various depths of shadow.
    I think I read somewhere that Sharp is developing an "inverse" LCD where the
    default state is black like a CRT, but I can't find any info about it.

    For general Windows use, LCDs are definitely better - DVI sees to that, but
    for dark games like Thief, CRTs are, and probably always will be, superior.
    Added to which, the whole dead/stuck pixel thing annoys me, with wretched
    rules that favour the manufacturers over the consumer, e.g. "you can't
    replace a panel if it has less than nine stuck pixels", so if you have
    eight, you're screwed.

    Here's an interesting article from Dan's Data on this subject:
    http://www.dansdata.com/gz021.htm

    *Desperately hopes that this doesn't descend into yet another "CRT vs. LCD"
    flame war*
  7. Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

    Spon349 wrote:

    > CRTs render far better blacks than LCDs because a CRT's default state
    > *is* black - it's just a case of turning off the electron gun,
    > leaving black phosphor. With an LCD, its default state is fully lit
    > (white) - the backlight has to be masked by black pixels, so
    > inevitably some of that light leaks through, giving the washed-out
    > grey look.

    My Hitachi can produce a pure black image perfectly well. However, like
    most TFTs it does start to falter when showing an array of very dark
    colours.

    --
    Morgan.
    ----
    * I never knew the old Vienna before the war, with its Strauss music, its
    glamour and easy charm - Constantinople suited me better.
  8. Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

    >>>>> "S" == Spon <Spon349> writes:

    S> Nope, gonna have to disagree with this.

    That's fine, but just so you know, I was speaking from direct
    experience. I have a dozen different brands and models of CRTs around
    the office (including some good quality Sony and Viewsonic
    professional series monitors), and another dozen models of LCD
    (Samsung, NEC/Mitsu, Sony, Viewsonic, Hansol, Daewoo). It was from
    comparisons of those that I made my remarks.

    - J<
  9. Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

    Thanks for all the input. After further investigation (comparing LCD to
    CRT) I opted for another CRT, but this one is 19" vs the old 17" one. In
    addition the new one is overall brighter, but still maintains the
    distinctive THIEF dark atmosphere.

    Again, thanks.

    Bob Fairbank wrote:

    > Is there an LCD out there that can properly render the shades of black
    > that THIEF requires to maintain its sense of atmosphere?
    >
    > I tried a three year old LCD that a friend has -- normal lighting
    > effects were great, but the dark murkiness of THIEF just wasn't there --
    > no matter what settings I used it was just too washed out.
    >
    > Perhaps the new LCD versions have been improved enough -- "they" claim
    > that that have. But I need an unbiased opinion before I spend the big
    > bucks. Thanks.
    >
    > Bob
  10. Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

    "Jason L Tibbitts III" <tibbs@math.uh.edu> wrote in message
    news:ufa4qf34bzi.fsf@epithumia.math.uh.edu...
    > >>>>> "S" == Spon <Spon349> writes:
    >
    > S> Nope, gonna have to disagree with this.
    >
    > That's fine, but just so you know, I was speaking from direct
    > experience. I have a dozen different brands and models of CRTs around
    > the office (including some good quality Sony and Viewsonic
    > professional series monitors), and another dozen models of LCD
    > (Samsung, NEC/Mitsu, Sony, Viewsonic, Hansol, Daewoo). It was from
    > comparisons of those that I made my remarks.

    You see, all you lot have done is confuse the hell out of me!

    I've got my annual bonus and I thought "Yay! At last I can buy that TFT I've
    been promising myself for ages"

    But now I'm thinking. "Oh bugger. Washed out dark colours? Dead Pixels? But
    think of all that precious desk space I'm going to lose with a CRT...!"

    Anyone know how good a Samsung SuncMaster 17" is (Sorry, thought I'd noted
    the model number but apparently not)? It's on sale for £70 at my local
    Currys...

    JJ (UK)
  11. Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

    > Anyone know how good a Samsung SuncMaster 17" is (Sorry, thought I'd noted
    > the model number but apparently not)? It's on sale for £70 at my local
    > Currys...
    >
    > JJ (UK)
    >
    >


    The Samsung Syncmaster 17" had one of the better pictures when I compared a
    few months ago at PC World
    and a few others.
    However I found that the best picture then was from a LG Flatron L1920P 19"
    , with the "17 equally good. It really had the most vibrant colours across
    the spectrum, while most LCD's looked washed out this one didn't. Would go
    for it again any time, although my screen showed up with a few dead pixels
    concentrated right in the middle. You get an on-site and exchange service
    guaranteed for 3 years if you have a valid problem with LG so can't go wrong
    really and I might still use this, but generally happy with this one anyway.

    More to the point: Yes Thief 2 does look a bit washed in all the dark areas
    and you don't get the deep 3d atmosphere with all the various shades of
    black. Sometimes it looks more brownish. Can't say anything how T3 looks on
    it as I have already completed it and took it off my machine.

    DOOM 3 in contrast looks really good on it, almost better than on my 17"
    Mitsubishi Pro730 CRT which is a bit too dark for doom.

    This with a ATI Radeon 9800 Pro card which might also influence the picture
    a bit (depending on your card).

    Well it's up to you, nothings perfect I guess.
    I keep the CRT connected for gaming and the LCD for general use as I think
    the writing is really much crisper on LCD but colours generally better on
    CRT.
    You can keep them both running with your email/newsgroups/firewall
    statistics etc. open on one and for example browsing or watching a movie on
    the other.


    --
    Barnaby
  12. Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

    "Bob Fairbank" <rhf28@crosslink.net> wrote in message
    news:4244A80B.1688A249@crosslink.net...
    > Thanks for all the input. After further investigation (comparing LCD to
    > CRT) I opted for another CRT, but this one is 19" vs the old 17" one. In
    > addition the new one is overall brighter, but still maintains the
    > distinctive THIEF dark atmosphere.

    Well done Bob - you made the right decision :-)
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