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LCD's and THIEF

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Anonymous
March 18, 2005 5:16:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

Is there an LCD out there that can properly render the shades of black
that THIEF requires to maintain its sense of atmosphere?

I tried a three year old LCD that a friend has -- normal lighting
effects were great, but the dark murkiness of THIEF just wasn't there --
no matter what settings I used it was just too washed out.

Perhaps the new LCD versions have been improved enough -- "they" claim
that that have. But I need an unbiased opinion before I spend the big
bucks. Thanks.

Bob

More about : lcd thief

Anonymous
March 19, 2005 12:35:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Bob Fairbank" <rhf28@crosslink.net> kirjoitti
viestissä:423B2917.36B5D8FD@crosslink.net...
> Is there an LCD out there that can properly render the shades of black
> that THIEF requires to maintain its sense of atmosphere?

A Finnish computer magazine 'Mikro Bitti' recently reviewed 17" digital
(with dvi-interfaces) LCD displays. In their article they mentioned LG
1710P, Samsung Syncmaster 172x, and BenQ FP783 displays that performed
particularily well when they tested the capability to display dark tones
with...ta-da! -- "Thief: The Dark Project". :) 

Eizo, Acer, and Fujitsu-Siemens displays that were tested didn't perform
equally well in that particular test.

- Mika L
March 19, 2005 12:35:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Mika Latokartano"
<mika.latokartano@REMOVETHIS.kolumbus.fi.invalid> wrote in
message news:D 1fail$npm$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi
> "Bob Fairbank" <rhf28@crosslink.net> kirjoitti
> viestissä:423B2917.36B5D8FD@crosslink.net...
>> Is there an LCD out there that can properly render the
>> shades of black that THIEF requires to maintain its
>> sense of atmosphere?
>
> A Finnish computer magazine 'Mikro Bitti' recently
> reviewed 17" digital (with dvi-interfaces) LCD displays. In their article
> they mentioned LG 1710P, Samsung
> Syncmaster 172x, and BenQ FP783 displays that performed
> particularily well when they tested the capability to
> display dark tones with...ta-da! -- "Thief: The Dark
> Project". :) 
> Eizo, Acer, and Fujitsu-Siemens displays that were tested
> didn't perform equally well in that particular test.
>
> - Mika L

I've read the CRTs are better for gaming than LCDs.
Related resources
Anonymous
March 19, 2005 1:17:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

>>>>> "M" == Mos <Not@YourHouse> writes:

M> I've read the CRTs are better for gaming than LCDs.

Depends on how you define "better". I gave up CRTs a long time ago
and certainly wouldn't give up the desk space and superlative image
quality to go back to sitting in front of an X-ray machine.

Where Thief is concerned, an LCD will actually go perfectly black
while a CRT generally won't, so I'd say that they better reproduce the
shadows that are so important. What many players find disorienting is
the way objects leave trails on the screen. On a CRT, bright objects
leave light trails, while on an LCD dark objects leave dark trails.
Modern fast-response panels limit this effect. I personally play on a
Samsung 191N or 191Tplus with a 25ms response time and I can't say
that I see amy appreciable display artifacts that effect play.

But perhaps I'm not as demanding as some.

- J<
Anonymous
March 19, 2005 1:34:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Mos" <Not@YourHouse> kirjoitti
viestissä:Z9adnQSfFaYBpabfRVn-iA@pcisys.net...
>
>
> "Mika Latokartano"
> <mika.latokartano@REMOVETHIS.kolumbus.fi.invalid> wrote in
> message news:D 1fail$npm$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi
>> "Bob Fairbank" <rhf28@crosslink.net> kirjoitti
>> viestissä:423B2917.36B5D8FD@crosslink.net...
>>> Is there an LCD out there that can properly render the
>>> shades of black that THIEF requires to maintain its
>>> sense of atmosphere?
>>
>> A Finnish computer magazine 'Mikro Bitti' recently
>> reviewed 17" digital (with dvi-interfaces) LCD displays. In their article
>> they mentioned LG 1710P, Samsung
>> Syncmaster 172x, and BenQ FP783 displays that performed
>> particularily well when they tested the capability to
>> display dark tones with...ta-da! -- "Thief: The Dark
>> Project". :) 
>> Eizo, Acer, and Fujitsu-Siemens displays that were tested
>> didn't perform equally well in that particular test.
>>
>> - Mika L
>
> I've read the CRTs are better for gaming than LCDs.

Oh, yes, but that's pretty much been a given so far. For now, we're just
discussing the perfomance of LCD displays in particular.

- Mika L
Anonymous
March 19, 2005 1:53:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:34:16 +0200, "Mika Latokartano"
<mika.latokartano@REMOVETHIS.kolumbus.fi.invalid> wrote:
>
>"Mos" <Not@YourHouse> kirjoitti
>viestissä:Z9adnQSfFaYBpabfRVn-iA@pcisys.net...

>> I've read the CRTs are better for gaming than LCDs.
>
>Oh, yes, but that's pretty much been a given so far. For now, we're just
>discussing the perfomance of LCD displays in particular.

Viewsonic has just been demonstrating their new line of LCDs with 4ms
grey-grey response times and 5ms black-white response times. I'm not a
big fan of Viewsonic but that's pretty sweet.

--
Michael Cecil
http://home.comcast.net/~macecil/
http://home.comcast.net/~safehex/
Anonymous
March 19, 2005 2:32:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Jason L Tibbitts III" <tibbs@math.uh.edu> wrote in message
news:ufa64zonuan.fsf@epithumia.math.uh.edu...
>>>>>> "M" == Mos <Not@YourHouse> writes:
>
> M> I've read the CRTs are better for gaming than LCDs.
>
> Depends on how you define "better". I gave up CRTs a long time ago
> and certainly wouldn't give up the desk space and superlative image
> quality to go back to sitting in front of an X-ray machine.
>
> Where Thief is concerned, an LCD will actually go perfectly black
> while a CRT generally won't, so I'd say that they better reproduce the
> shadows that are so important. What many players find disorienting is
> the way objects leave trails on the screen. On a CRT, bright objects
> leave light trails, while on an LCD dark objects leave dark trails.
> Modern fast-response panels limit this effect. I personally play on a
> Samsung 191N or 191Tplus with a 25ms response time and I can't say
> that I see amy appreciable display artifacts that effect play.
>
> But perhaps I'm not as demanding as some.

Nope, gonna have to disagree with this.

CRTs render far better blacks than LCDs because a CRT's default state *is*
black - it's just a case of turning off the electron gun, leaving black
phosphor. With an LCD, its default state is fully lit (white) - the
backlight has to be masked by black pixels, so inevitably some of that light
leaks through, giving the washed-out grey look. I had a Dell 2001FP for a
while, and the backlight leakage was horrendous - it's probably better on
other panels (or at least I sincerely hope it is), but Thief looked
terrible, with absolutely no distinction between various depths of shadow.
I think I read somewhere that Sharp is developing an "inverse" LCD where the
default state is black like a CRT, but I can't find any info about it.

For general Windows use, LCDs are definitely better - DVI sees to that, but
for dark games like Thief, CRTs are, and probably always will be, superior.
Added to which, the whole dead/stuck pixel thing annoys me, with wretched
rules that favour the manufacturers over the consumer, e.g. "you can't
replace a panel if it has less than nine stuck pixels", so if you have
eight, you're screwed.

Here's an interesting article from Dan's Data on this subject:
http://www.dansdata.com/gz021.htm

*Desperately hopes that this doesn't descend into yet another "CRT vs. LCD"
flame war*
Anonymous
March 20, 2005 12:09:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

Spon349 wrote:

> CRTs render far better blacks than LCDs because a CRT's default state
> *is* black - it's just a case of turning off the electron gun,
> leaving black phosphor. With an LCD, its default state is fully lit
> (white) - the backlight has to be masked by black pixels, so
> inevitably some of that light leaks through, giving the washed-out
> grey look.

My Hitachi can produce a pure black image perfectly well. However, like
most TFTs it does start to falter when showing an array of very dark
colours.

--
Morgan.
----
* I never knew the old Vienna before the war, with its Strauss music, its
glamour and easy charm - Constantinople suited me better.
Anonymous
March 22, 2005 6:17:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

>>>>> "S" == Spon <Spon349> writes:

S> Nope, gonna have to disagree with this.

That's fine, but just so you know, I was speaking from direct
experience. I have a dozen different brands and models of CRTs around
the office (including some good quality Sony and Viewsonic
professional series monitors), and another dozen models of LCD
(Samsung, NEC/Mitsu, Sony, Viewsonic, Hansol, Daewoo). It was from
comparisons of those that I made my remarks.

- J<
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 10:08:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

Thanks for all the input. After further investigation (comparing LCD to
CRT) I opted for another CRT, but this one is 19" vs the old 17" one. In
addition the new one is overall brighter, but still maintains the
distinctive THIEF dark atmosphere.

Again, thanks.

Bob Fairbank wrote:

> Is there an LCD out there that can properly render the shades of black
> that THIEF requires to maintain its sense of atmosphere?
>
> I tried a three year old LCD that a friend has -- normal lighting
> effects were great, but the dark murkiness of THIEF just wasn't there --
> no matter what settings I used it was just too washed out.
>
> Perhaps the new LCD versions have been improved enough -- "they" claim
> that that have. But I need an unbiased opinion before I spend the big
> bucks. Thanks.
>
> Bob
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 1:15:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Jason L Tibbitts III" <tibbs@math.uh.edu> wrote in message
news:ufa4qf34bzi.fsf@epithumia.math.uh.edu...
> >>>>> "S" == Spon <Spon349> writes:
>
> S> Nope, gonna have to disagree with this.
>
> That's fine, but just so you know, I was speaking from direct
> experience. I have a dozen different brands and models of CRTs around
> the office (including some good quality Sony and Viewsonic
> professional series monitors), and another dozen models of LCD
> (Samsung, NEC/Mitsu, Sony, Viewsonic, Hansol, Daewoo). It was from
> comparisons of those that I made my remarks.

You see, all you lot have done is confuse the hell out of me!

I've got my annual bonus and I thought "Yay! At last I can buy that TFT I've
been promising myself for ages"

But now I'm thinking. "Oh bugger. Washed out dark colours? Dead Pixels? But
think of all that precious desk space I'm going to lose with a CRT...!"

Anyone know how good a Samsung SuncMaster 17" is (Sorry, thought I'd noted
the model number but apparently not)? It's on sale for £70 at my local
Currys...

JJ (UK)
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 3:53:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

> Anyone know how good a Samsung SuncMaster 17" is (Sorry, thought I'd noted
> the model number but apparently not)? It's on sale for £70 at my local
> Currys...
>
> JJ (UK)
>
>


The Samsung Syncmaster 17" had one of the better pictures when I compared a
few months ago at PC World
and a few others.
However I found that the best picture then was from a LG Flatron L1920P 19"
, with the "17 equally good. It really had the most vibrant colours across
the spectrum, while most LCD's looked washed out this one didn't. Would go
for it again any time, although my screen showed up with a few dead pixels
concentrated right in the middle. You get an on-site and exchange service
guaranteed for 3 years if you have a valid problem with LG so can't go wrong
really and I might still use this, but generally happy with this one anyway.

More to the point: Yes Thief 2 does look a bit washed in all the dark areas
and you don't get the deep 3d atmosphere with all the various shades of
black. Sometimes it looks more brownish. Can't say anything how T3 looks on
it as I have already completed it and took it off my machine.

DOOM 3 in contrast looks really good on it, almost better than on my 17"
Mitsubishi Pro730 CRT which is a bit too dark for doom.

This with a ATI Radeon 9800 Pro card which might also influence the picture
a bit (depending on your card).

Well it's up to you, nothings perfect I guess.
I keep the CRT connected for gaming and the LCD for general use as I think
the writing is really much crisper on LCD but colours generally better on
CRT.
You can keep them both running with your email/newsgroups/firewall
statistics etc. open on one and for example browsing or watching a movie on
the other.


--
Barnaby
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 2:22:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.thief-dark-project (More info?)

"Bob Fairbank" <rhf28@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:4244A80B.1688A249@crosslink.net...
> Thanks for all the input. After further investigation (comparing LCD to
> CRT) I opted for another CRT, but this one is 19" vs the old 17" one. In
> addition the new one is overall brighter, but still maintains the
> distinctive THIEF dark atmosphere.

Well done Bob - you made the right decision :-)
!