Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

List of SSDs with SandForce SSDs with Toggle NAND

Last response: in Storage
Share
May 23, 2012 4:09:54 AM

Tom's only lists

Mushkin Chronos Deluxe, Patriot Wildfire, OCZ Vertex 3 Max IOPS, Kingston HyperX 3K, OWC Mercury Extreme Pro 6G

I know there are more, what are they? Is there a list anywhere? If not someone should make one.
a c 256 G Storage
May 23, 2012 1:39:19 PM

Samsung 830 Series, Future Storage, Plextor PX-M3S, and SanDisk Extreme also use Toggle NAND.

The Kingston HyperX 3K is a "value ssd". If memory serves it uses less expensive NAND supplied by Intel.

A lot of the Toggle NAND in consumer grade ssd's is manufactured by Toshiba. Samsung and SanDisk use their own.

There aren't that many consumer grade ssd's using Toggle NAND.
a b G Storage
May 23, 2012 2:15:00 PM

The Samsung 830 and Plextor PX-M3S are not SandForce drives. The thread asks for SandForce drives with toggle-mode NAND Flash, not all drives with toggle-mode NAND Flash.
Related resources
May 23, 2012 2:36:33 PM

Are the Samsung and Plextor drives just as reliable? I know SanForce used to not be but I think with the right updates they are fine. I haven't read much on the reliability of Samsung and Plextor. I'm trying to find the cheapest Toggle NAND drive that is still reliable.
a c 256 G Storage
May 23, 2012 3:26:08 PM

blazorthon - You are correct. I figured I would add them since there are so few drives.

Checkitman22 - SSD's are relatively new so long term reliability is not yet known. It will take a few years to establish reliability. By then we will probably have upgraded to something new and improved. So far Samsung has an extremely good track record. I am not familiar with Plextor but technical reviews have been very favorable.
a b G Storage
May 23, 2012 3:40:14 PM

checkitman22 said:
Are the Samsung and Plextor drives just as reliable? I know SanForce used to not be but I think with the right updates they are fine. I haven't read much on the reliability of Samsung and Plextor. I'm trying to find the cheapest Toggle NAND drive that is still reliable.


SandForce drives are still the least reliable SSDs (except maybe Intel's SandForce drives; Intel has a history of reliable SSDs and unlike the other SandForce drives, I've yet to need to help someone on a problem with an Intel SSD). Not having a SandForce drive increases reliability incredibly because pretty much all other controllers are more reliable. The problem with them is that the only non-SandForce drive that ca keep up with the SandForce drives in all workloads is the Vertex 4. If you want the fastest drive for all workloads, the Vertex 4 is the way to go, although I don't know if it will be the cheapest. Don't think that just because a cheaper drive has toggle-mode Flash, the cheaper drive can come at all close to the Sandforce drives in compressible throughput or to the Vertex 4 in any read/write throughput.
May 23, 2012 4:15:32 PM

blazorthon said:
SandForce drives are still the least reliable SSDs (except maybe Intel's SandForce drives; Intel has a history of reliable SSDs and unlike the other SandForce drives, I've yet to need to help someone on a problem with an Intel SSD). Not having a SandForce drive increases reliability incredibly because pretty much all other controllers are more reliable. The problem with them is that the only non-SandForce drive that ca keep up with the SandForce drives in all workloads is the Vertex 4. If you want the fastest drive for all workloads, the Vertex 4 is the way to go, although I don't know if it will be the cheapest. Don't think that just because a cheaper drive has toggle-mode Flash, the cheaper drive can come at all close to the Sandforce drives in compressible throughput or to the Vertex 4 in any read/write throughput.


So the Samsung drives aren't nearly as fast then? =/
a c 256 G Storage
May 23, 2012 4:38:21 PM

The OCZ Vertex 4 was just released last month. Issues popped up. At the beginning of this month OCZ issued a firmware update. There are still a few minor issues which need to be worked on so that means at least one more firmware update. I'd wait a few months and see how it plays out before recommending the Vertex 4.

On the plus side the "Indilinx Everest 2" controller is actually a modified Marvell controller :) 
a b G Storage
May 23, 2012 4:47:23 PM

checkitman22 said:
So the Samsung drives aren't nearly as fast then? =/


The 830s aren't as fast for writing data as the SandForce drives, but they are still far faster than a hard drive. Their advantage is that the beat the crap out of SandForce drives for in-compressible data throughput and come close for reading throughput with both compressible and in-compressible data. The 830s also have the advantage of using almost zero power compared to other drives, although that's not too important outside of a mobile computer.
a b G Storage
May 23, 2012 4:51:00 PM

JohnnyLucky said:
The OCZ Vertex 4 was just released last month. Issues popped up. At the beginning of this month OCZ issued a firmware update. There are still a few minor issues which need to be worked on so that means at least one more firmware update. I'd wait a few months and see how it plays out before recommending the Vertex 4.

On the plus side the "Indilinx Everest 2" controller is actually a modified Marvell controller :) 


I'm surprised... Usually, no one believes me when I say that the Vertex 4s have a modified Marvell controller, not an Indilinx controller until I show them half a dozen links proving it.
May 23, 2012 5:50:17 PM

Regardless of anything I will never purchase an OCZ drive, or any OCZ products. I've had nothing bad bad luck with their PSUs and RAM both. I also hear worst things about their drives. I would just go Patriot or Kingston if I was going to go top dollar but I'm just looking for something reliable that is around the 85-90c per GB mark if I can't find it while still performing epic.
a b G Storage
May 23, 2012 6:19:31 PM

checkitman22 said:
Regardless of anything I will never purchase an OCZ drive, or any OCZ products. I've had nothing bad bad luck with their PSUs and RAM both. I also hear worst things about their drives. I would just go Patriot or Kingston if I was going to go top dollar but I'm just looking for something reliable that is around the 85-90c per GB mark if I can't find it while still performing epic.


OCZ's drives aren't the problem, it's SandForce. OCZ gets the heat because they are the biggest supplier of SandForce drives, but all SandForce drives have the problems that are seen by OCZ's older drives. Vertex 4 does not have the problems that the older drives had, like all of the other Marvell and other non-SandForce drives. Also, their PSUs are fine if you use the right ones. OCZ does not make PSUs, they simply re-brand other companies' PSUs as OCZ and the newer OCZ PSUs are much better than the old ones. OCZ's RAM was also okay, it often just needed a voltage jump.

OCZ has recovered since their earlier problems, I assure you. Also, if you want supreme reliability, then Patriot and Kingston are NOT the way to go. Go for any non-SandForce drives, or any Intel drives. Vertex 4 is included in that, but if you are so adamant against them for their past problems, then get a Samsung, Plextor, Marvell, Crucial, or Intel drive. Vertex 4 is still my recommendation.

EDIT: I just checked and Vertex 4 is a little out of what you want to pay. The 128GB version is $150 on newegg. I guess OCZ wants to make sure that they get their money's worth when they sell you a top of the line SSD.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Here's an Intel 180GB SSD for only $140 if you use the MIR. Is that acceptable?
May 23, 2012 7:16:32 PM

Looking for 240GB drives.

Was looking at these.

http://www.logicbuy.com/deals/samsung-830-series-256gb-...

http://www.logicbuy.com/deals/sandisk-extreme-240gb-int...

Also you can't just "forgive" OCZ because they used parts from other companies that were poor, that was still a choice on their part, whether they manufactured them or not. Also on both replacements of my RAM (twice) and PSU (once) it was a hassle and the customer support was wretched. I'd rather stay away. I wanted to like them because back in the DDR2 days OCZ made great ram and I never had problems with them, they lost my support as the years went on.
a b G Storage
May 23, 2012 7:25:30 PM

checkitman22 said:
Looking for 240GB drives.

Was looking at these.

http://www.logicbuy.com/deals/samsung-830-series-256gb-...

http://www.logicbuy.com/deals/sandisk-extreme-240gb-int...

Also you can't just "forgive" OCZ because they used parts from other companies that were poor, that was still a choice on their part, whether they manufactured them or not. Also on both replacements of my RAM (twice) and PSU (once) it was a hassle and the customer support was wretched. I'd rather stay away. I wanted to like them because back in the DDR2 days OCZ made great ram and I never had problems with them, they lost my support as the years went on.


Of those two drives, I'd get the Samsung 830.
May 23, 2012 7:29:16 PM

Even though they are slow compared to the sandforces?
a b G Storage
May 23, 2012 8:14:12 PM

checkitman22 said:
Even though they are slow compared to the sandforces?


There are many different aspects of performance. The Sandforce drives are next to useless with in-compressible data compared to most other non-SandForce SSDs because they rely on data being compressed for them to be as fast as they are. They beat SandForce in some ways, SandForce just wins in more than it loses against them. Vertex 4 is the only exception to this because it meets or beats SandForce in every aspect of SSD performance despite also being more reliable due to not being a SandForce based drive and that is why I like to recommend it. SandForce is actually a low performance controller and it's high performance is strictly because of it compressing data. SandForce is really just a poor quality controller.
a c 256 G Storage
May 23, 2012 8:17:01 PM

I haven't posted it for a while but here is the standard recommendation I've made countless times:

If reliability and stability is a major concern, then Samsung is worth considering. Samsung was awarded contracts to supply Dell, Sony, Lenovo, Apple and other off the shelf brands with OEM versions of their 470 Series SATA 2 3Gb/s ssd's. Eventually the 470's were released for retail sale to consumers. There have been no major issues reported. The 470 has an absolutely stellar record.

Then Samsung released their 830 Series SATA 3 6Gb/s ssd's as successors to the 470. The first ones were OEM versions for Dell and the other off the shelf brands followed by release of retail versions for consumers. The ssd's are Samsung's own design with their own components and firmware. It looks like Samsung got it right again.

Here is a link the to ssd database:

http://www.johnnylucky.org/data-storage/ssd-database.ht...

Scroll down to the brands and models you are interested in and then click on the links to the technical reviews.

NOTE - Sometimes I've recommended Crucial and Intel too.
May 23, 2012 10:09:38 PM

Well dang if they are that reliable, and beat are on par with SandForce in almost half of the tests AND they aren't that exensive I don't get why they aren't the most popular
a b G Storage
May 23, 2012 10:37:57 PM

checkitman22 said:
Well dang if they are that reliable, and beat are on par with SandForce in almost half of the tests AND they aren't that exensive I don't get why they aren't the most popular


Marketing plays a big part in that and the fact that the SandForce drives have huge theoretical speeds tricks a lot of people into buying something that might not be the best option for their situation. It's like USB 2.0 versus Friewire. Which is faster? Well, USB 2.0 has 480MB/s maximum theoretical and Firewire has 400MB/s maximum theoretical, so people think USB is faster, despite the fact that Firewire often gets over 90% of it's maximum theoretical perfomrance and USB rarely gets more than half of it's maximum theoretical performance. Firewire was almost always faster and by a lot, and despite it even being older than USB, USB still took dominance over Firewire to the point where Firewire has been practically dead in the consumer markets for years (Firewire also had many other uses. For example, until gigabit Ethernet, it was the fastest cheap home networking interface). The better products actually tend to not win, it's usually the company (or companies) who can and does sell better that wins. For example, Amiga was decades ahead of other computers of it's time in many ways, yet where are they today? They're in basements and museums. The company who can control the market wins pretty much every time, even if their product is inferior and SandForce does a great job of that.
May 24, 2012 12:55:25 AM

So if I'm looking for something extremely fast the samsung drives are fine?
a c 256 G Storage
May 24, 2012 1:09:29 AM

Yes, Samsung is fine.

Samsung focuses on supplying OEM ssd's for the off the shelf pc companies I mentioned. Last report I saw indicated Samsung had a little over 29% of that market. Retail sales to consumers were an after thought.
May 24, 2012 2:13:41 AM

Awesome, does anyone have any experience with buydig.com is so im gunna pick up two of those samsung drives for 450 bucks for 512gb.
a b G Storage
May 24, 2012 2:15:33 AM

checkitman22 said:
Awesome, does anyone have any experience with buydig.com is so im gunna pick up two of those samsung drives for 450 bucks for 512gb.


I've never heard of that site, so I'm not sure of how good it is.
a c 256 G Storage
May 24, 2012 5:25:19 AM

I have bought from them several times. Each time it was a hot deal at LogicBuy like the ones you looked at today. Processing is a little slower than Newegg. They don't ship same day that you order. Free shipping is the standard Fedex 7 to 10 days.

I bought a Samsung Series 830 256GB ssd from them for $225.00 and free shipping. It arrived yesterday. I installed it in my wife's pc this evening. No problems at all.
May 24, 2012 6:19:44 AM

JohnnyLucky said:
I have bought from them several times. Each time it was a hot deal at LogicBuy like the ones you looked at today. Processing is a little slower than Newegg. They don't ship same day that you order. Free shipping is the standard Fedex 7 to 10 days.

I bought a Samsung Series 830 256GB ssd from them for $225.00 and free shipping. It arrived yesterday. I installed it in my wife's pc this evening. No problems at all.


How are the speeds feel compared to what you use?
a c 256 G Storage
May 24, 2012 12:25:11 PM

I've got a Samsung in my own personal rig. The new one was for my wife. I did a clean install of Windows 7 Pro 64. The installation was a lot faster than with a hard drive.

I got slowed down hunting for the latest drivers and updates on line but that had nothing to do with the ssd.
a b G Storage
May 24, 2012 2:00:24 PM

checkitman22 said:
How are the speeds feel compared to what you use?


If you're that worried about speed, then you could get a faster drive. During regular work, it's not easy to tell the difference between the fastest SSD and a moderate SSD like the Samsung 830. You will only see the difference when you do something much more storage intensive. The 830 is not a slow drive, it's just not even close to being the fastest. It is still unbelievably ahead of a hard drive.
a b G Storage
May 24, 2012 7:09:00 PM

Quote:
I have found the 830 to be very stable and it does offer a pretty good performance level. Unless you're operating some kind of crazy network RAID 10 server or something, you're probably not going to notice the speed difference that much.


RAID has nothing to do with it and it being in a server also has nothing to do with it. I could easily tell the difference if I simply do multiple large archive decompression jobs at once. The point was that OP wouldn't be able to tell the difference under normal circumstances. It doesn't take something overly extreme for the difference to become blatantly obvious, especially since Vertex 4 is several times faster for many workloads, it just takes something a little more extreme and more specific.
June 10, 2012 7:05:42 AM

blazorthon said:
OCZ's drives aren't the problem, it's SandForce. OCZ gets the heat because they are the biggest supplier of SandForce drives, but all SandForce drives have the problems that are seen by OCZ's older drives. Vertex 4 does not have the problems that the older drives had, like all of the other Marvell and other non-SandForce drives. Also, their PSUs are fine if you use the right ones. OCZ does not make PSUs, they simply re-brand other companies' PSUs as OCZ and the newer OCZ PSUs are much better than the old ones. OCZ's RAM was also okay, it often just needed a voltage jump.



My ssd is an older Vertex which is indilinx and not sanforce. It has been a constant source of trouble in Win & ultimate with: freezes, crashes, corruption of system files, not booting (due to system corruption) and catastrophic failure (disappearing entirely from BIOS). So how do you explain that?

OCZ owes us an explanation so that we can try to deal with their mess and make informed decisions, but OCZ is silent on the matter. As I see it, Eric Ryder of OCZ forum fame collects a lot of data on consumer behavior without offering any useful information in return, and I believe that they do this to determine how best to shut out consumers from accessing their own drives. I say this because he has stated in that forum that they do not issue instructions publicly to avoid competitors decompiling and reverse engineering their products. The only reason I could see for anyone reverse engineering an OCZ product would be to determine how not to make a drive or to run a business.

I still love my little ssd, but OCZ needs to seriously meditate on its bad attitude and the damage it is doing to itself and to ssd technology in general.
a b G Storage
June 10, 2012 7:22:48 AM

don largo said:
My ssd is an older Vertex which is indilinx and not sanforce. It has been a constant source of trouble in Win & ultimate with: freezes, crashes, corruption of system files, not booting (due to system corruption) and catastrophic failure (disappearing entirely from BIOS). So how do you explain that?

OCZ owes us an explanation so that we can try to deal with their mess and make informed decisions, but OCZ is silent on the matter. As I see it, Eric Ryder of OCZ forum fame collects a lot of data on consumer behavior without offering any useful information in return, and I believe that they do this to determine how best to shut out consumers from accessing their own drives. I say this because he has stated in that forum that they do not issue instructions publicly to avoid competitors decompiling and reverse engineering their products. The only reason I could see for anyone reverse engineering an OCZ product would be to determine how not to make a drive or to run a business.

I still love my little ssd, but OCZ needs to seriously meditate on its bad attitude and the damage it is doing to itself and to ssd technology in general.


Vertex 4 has a Marvell controller, not Indilinx. OCZ re-branded it as Indilinx, but that's just a re-brand and it's actually not related to the previous Indilinx controllers. The Marvell controller in the Vertex 4 is nothing like the older Indilinx controllers. I think that it's similar to the Marvell controller in the upcoming Corsair Neutron series and if Corsair trusts this controller, then it's almost definitely great even if I hadn't already tested it myself. This Marvell controller, like Marvell's others, is highly reliable and high-performance.
June 10, 2012 8:15:10 AM

blazorthon said:
Vertex 4 has a Marvell controller, not Indilinx. OCZ re-branded it as Indilinx, but that's just a re-brand and it's actually not related to the previous Indilinx controllers. The Marvell controller in the Vertex 4 is nothing like the older Indilinx controllers. I think that it's similar to the Marvell controller in the upcoming Corsair Neutron series and if Corsair trusts this controller, then it's almost definitely great even if I hadn't already tested it myself. This Marvell controller, like Marvell's others, is highly reliable and high-performance.

Yes, I realize that from other comments on the net, but my concern/issue is that I have an indilinx controller with problems which are supposedly associated with a sandforce controller. Something still doesn't add up. The Vertex4 may be, and I hope will be, a problem free ssd. I am not down on the Vertex drives 1-4 so much as dissatisfied with the way it is being handled by OCZ.

I suspect some problem with software compatibility. Since I just had to do another destructive flash and install on my Vertex, I went and got all the latest drivers, but the Intel package installed some executables on my machine which were unable to launch at boot and which then stopped my computer with UAC requests. I am given to understand it is because Intel installed them to the 32bit folder and so they remain unregistered. My point here being that if Intel can't do something as simple as install its own programs (which the installer never asked me about, by the way) imagine what kind of bozos they have working down there and what kind of mess they might be capable of making.

OCZ needs to open up to its consumers given that they have sold us a big mess.
a b G Storage
June 10, 2012 8:20:41 AM

don largo said:
Yes, I realize that from other comments on the net, but my concern/issue is that I have an indilinx controller with problems which are supposedly associated with a sandforce controller. Something still doesn't add up. The Vertex4 may be, and I hope will be, a problem free ssd. I am not down on the Vertex drives 1-4 so much as dissatisfied with the way it is being handled by OCZ.

I suspect some problem with software compatibility. Since I just had to do another destructive flash and install on my Vertex, I went and got all the latest drivers, but the Intel package installed some executables on my machine which were unable to launch at boot and which then stopped my computer with UAC requests. I am given to understand it is because Intel installed them to the 32bit folder and so they remain unregistered. My point here being that if Intel can't do something as simple as install its own programs (which the installer never asked me about, by the way) imagine what kind of bozos they have working down there and what kind of mess they might be capable of making.

OCZ needs to open up to its consumers given that they have sold us a big mess.


OK, I see your point here.

Also, run a disk check and a virus scan. That does not look good.
!