OCZ Vertex IV

kikiking · Jun 10, 2012

Anyone own an ocz vertex IV?

and has updated the firmware?

nikorr · Jun 10, 2012

Whats your firmware?

nikorr · Jun 10, 2012

Read this @ http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ocz-vertex-4-firmware-upgrade-ssd,15550.html

nikorr · Jun 10, 2012

Do u have any problem with it?

kikiking · Jun 11, 2012

well I wanted to know if anyone did.... because I wanted to know how it did against the ocz vertex 3 max iops 120 gb vs 128 gb ocz vertex IV

blazorthon · Jun 11, 2012

The Vertex 4 wins in some situations, but seems to lose in more than it wins. The Vertex 3 MAXIOPS is a higher end drive. There might be a Vertex 4 MAXIOPS drive later on that replaces it. I've used Vertex 4 and I often recommend it, but it shouldn't beat a Vertex 3 MAXIOPS except in in-compressible throughput and a few other ways.

It might be able to beat a Vertex 3 MAXIOPS if you enable NTFS compression (Vertex 4 doesn't compress data on its own like the Vertex 3s do, so enabling NTFS compression should help them more than it helps the Vertex 3s), but I'm not sure if it would make enough of a difference for the Vertex 4 to win overall.

I haven't tested a Vertex 3 MAXIOPS and I don't personally know anyone with them, so I can't be sure, but if they are only about as reliable as the regular Vertex 3s, then the Vertex 4 does seem to at least have an edge in reliability so long as it has the newest firmware and that firmware is installed properly. However, I've heard of Vertex 4 fighting firmware updates (I didn't have trouble with it, but that doesn't mean that you won't if you buy a Vertex 4), so getting it to that point might be problematic.

I have the 128GB model.

nikorr · Jun 11, 2012

Check this.

The OCZ Vertex 4 Review
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/4712/ocz_vertex_4_128gb_solid_state_drive_review_with_1_4_r6_firmware/index12.html

The OCZ Vertex 3 Review
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4256/the-ocz-vertex-3-review-120gb/5

blazorthon · Jun 11, 2012

From the end of the Vertex 4 review:

There is still one other issue that should give you a reason to wait and see on the V4. The drive as a whole, the controller and the firmware is still untested when it comes to long term use. The firmware we are using today is version 1.4 R6. Just two days ago we tested with v1.4 R4. OCZ is still making changes and that is why this firmware is advertised as a release candidate. At this stage though, I don't think OCZ would release to the public a firmware that increases performance this much only to take it back and return to the slower firmware. If you already have a Vertex 4 and are using it in a primary system, we suggest you hold off updating your drive until after the new firmware passes through the release candidate stage just to be safe. Remember if you update your V4 SSD with one of these new firmware updates, backup your data first. It will be gone after the update.

As it sits now though, if the final firmware is as fast as this release that we tested the Vertex 4 128GB with today, this drive will be at the top of our buy list in this capacity size. The speed is undeniable; there just isn't anything else on the market in this size that is as fast in as many tests.

I seem to have underestimated it a little. I don't have the firmware version that they have, so that's probably why they did better versus the other drives. I recommend reading the entire review because it is very informative, so thanks Nikorr for showing us that.

Going through the review, the V3 MAXIOPS still beat the Vertex 4 often, but each firmware release seems to put a large dent in the gap between them in the workloads that the V3 MAXIOPS still wins in. They don't seem to have tested the effects of NTFS compression in this review, so it doesn't show how well it shakes up the numbers. I think that I'll heed the advice given about not updating my firmware until a confirmed stable release is launched, so I can't give you numbers on how well it would help with the firmware that they tested, 1.4 R6.

kikiking · Jun 11, 2012

Yeah I have a vertex III max iops 120 gb edition that I neither updated past 1.15 nor used, I am thinking of getting another. When I saw the vertex IV release I went nuts, and knew this exact thing would happen. I think i'll still get vertex III 120gb max iops, the price for it is still at a high range though. If future updates destroy the regular edition vertex III then max iops may drop in price.

Look at the price of the vetex III standard edition, compared to the max iops and vertex IV.

My pc sort of is in pieces I have not tested and do not intend to until I consider getting max iops drive again, or until my rma'ed motherboard is returned.

kikiking · Jun 11, 2012

I remember when the date the vertex III max iops released it was about a month and a half a or a few weeks after the regular vertex III edition.

I wonder what would be taking so long for a release of the vertex IV, not that it matters id probably wait 2-3 months before considering buying it probably

.

blazorthon · Jun 11, 2012

I have to say, I wasn't been truly thrilled with OCZ's SSDs up until recently due to known reliability problems and such, but I think that Vertex 4 might be OCZ's best attempt yet. We see how they are continually working on it and making non-stop improvements to the firmware and I've even heard great things about OCZ's customer service for Vertex 4 drives (although for many of their other drives, I am not amused by their often very unhelpful stance).

Once OCZ finishes with RCs for their upcoming firmware, I might get another one and do some serious testing.

Yeah, unless you don't mind dealing with the firmware craziness, you would probably be better off skipping Vertex 4 until OCZ straitens things out more completely. However, if you didn't mind dealing with the firmware craziness... Don't even think about it, just get one. Set up properly, they are very reliable and fast and one thing that I really like about mine is how it is much better at retaining performance as it nears full capacity than most of the other SSDs that I've tried, not that I ever recommend doing that, it's just interesting that it can handle it so well.

I think that I would usually recommend a Plextor or maybe a Samsung 830 over the Vertex 3 MAXIOPS, but that's me.

kikiking · Jun 11, 2012

Yeah, what is the plextor and the samsung 830 like compared to the vertex III Max iops? I might as well get another max iops, if I get tired of it, i'll switch to one of the three that was mentioned.

VtX4, plextor, samgung, sandisk, then extra's corsair, intel, or kingston.

but yeah i'll wait for a max iops edition of the vertex IV before probably changing my vertex III max iops. I like OCZ, no problem, and I might as well skip v4 until v4-max iops comes out, or v-5 or new series comes out.

I may also just try/buy other drives even if I have max iops.

Mainly intel,samgung, sandisk, corsair, and kingston drives. I can not think of any other SSD's of choice

blazorthon · Jun 11, 2012

kikiking :

I mentioned the Plextor because that Vertex 4 review mentioned it as the fastest SSD that they had tested overall and the reviewers said that the Vertex 4 looks like it could overtake it as the top SSD until a Vertex 4 MAXIOPS or something similarly fast comes out (I think that a Corsair Neutron GTX might be comparable to a Vertex 4 MAXIOPS, granted that is only speculation). Plextor is also using Marvell controllers and there was a few benchmarks in that review with a Plextor, if you want to see how it stacked up. One other thing about the Plextor... They're possibly the most reliable SSD made to date.

Regardless, the Vertex 3 MAXIOPS is still a very fast drive and wins in some situations. I don't know if you're considering it, but SandForce is much more compatible with RAID than most other controllers and it might be the only controller with TRIM support when in a RAID array.

kikiking · Jun 11, 2012

Well I was told to go SLC or get vertex IV look at the list here, read this review. My problem with this review is that I wonder if OCZ vertex III max iops was at the latest firmware before those tests, because 1.22 adds a benchmark boost and increase that it supposedly did not have before. I will consider updating it to 1.22 for other reasons.

concerning trim support in raid array I sworn that was on intels side? as in they needed to release an update to sata controller for that? there was a firmware update for vertex III max iops that added trim support in raid, which one was this because 1.15 and 1.22 is current.

http://en.expreview.com/2012/06/04/14-120gb128gb-ssds-roundup-review/23375.html/4

look at these reviews, I may consider what you said and get vertex 4. But you know I wonder if they will get trim in raid mode fast, I mean how can max iops have this and they not concentrate on that for everest 2, makes no sense. so I thought it was on intels side.

blazorthon · Jun 11, 2012

kikiking :

[citation][nom]colson79[/nom]This depends on the type of drive you are using. The Sandforce based drives have been shown not to degrade even without trim because they have really good garbage collection built into the controllers.[/citation]

[citation][nom]acku[/nom]Colson79 you hit the nail on the head. If you're going to do RAID, make sure it's SF, cause it does mostly foreground GC. Everything else I wouldn't touch for RAID until TRIM support becomes available.[/citation]

acku is one of Tom's mods with a lot of SSD experience. My bad, SF might not have TRIM support, but it doesn't really need it and is still the SSD controller to have for RAID.

Quotes are from the comments in this article and acku is the writer, if I remember correctly:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-recommendation-review,3194-7.html

kikiking · Jun 11, 2012

I see, the garbage collection. that comes on sandforce drives is the thing that helps maintain the lifespan, and performance of SSD's with sandforce controller. So yeah it would be best to get another ocz vertex III max iops.

What does that vertex IV series have that would maybe help with being in trim? Let me tell you the truth I was holding off on raid because I wanted trim support in raid to be achieved even though I knew about GC.

I was thinking either I buy an OCZ vertex III max iops again or take the plunge and get the ocz vertex IV, and maybe sell the vertex III max iops, or just keep it who knows.

Now I seem less tense about wanting to upgrade to vertex IV instead of getting another vertex III max iops.

thanks for all the advice blazorthon. nice info.

blazorthon · Jun 11, 2012

The Vertex 4 needs its TRIM. It has very good TRIM and its controller is so good that the Vertex 4 doesn't even slow down much at all (however, it doesn't have foreground garbage collection that rivals SandForce), even when you fill it up to almost full capacity. V4 is also a more reliable drive (so long as it has TRIM) that would probably last longer than a V3. SF has decent TRIM, but doesn't need it as much and that's why it doesn't degrade over time as much as other drives do if they don't have TRIM.

However, SF does degrade much more when it is closer to full capacity, but due to it not needing TRIM too much, you can use it in RAID if you get capacity problems so that you don't need to replace it. Another thing with it is that it can then be in RAID 5 to counteract the reliability problem while improving performance at minimal impact on capacity per drive. So really, there are many trade-offs for either side until V4 has TRIM in RAID support. V4, however, already has other advantages related to performance, especially its nearly zero access time compared to the V3 MAXIOPS.

kikiking · Jun 11, 2012

Yeah, I see this is one of the win/wins for the vertex III max iops series, I understand.f You have a vertex IV so I doubt you care about using raid right now, and if you do get another drive and do it you probably would not care. Sandforce has been here longer, and is more mature, and max iops is a high end, and of course it has other advantages over vertex IV concerning random read and write correct, we will see what firmware updates do.

But if you have a five year warranty and would not mind making a sacrifice in raid, or for raid switching from sandforce then it does not matter, faster access times as you said ^^.

so has the write speeds improved for the vertex IV? I would be in a panic about switching from sandforce max iops only because of it's write speeds alone, in case I wanted to render video, or encode or edit movies and such, or use other stuff. But you know what, I would not really care in the long run.

So either I get another max iops or I grab a vertex IV to test out~!

I am going to wait and see how firmware works out for V3 max iops and V4, and make a decision.

Love your advice, thanks.

PS: vertex IV has some utility or software you can download for it from the OCZ technology website correct?

blazorthon · Jun 11, 2012

kikiking :

Write speed is one of the most improved performance numbers of the V4 and is one of the faster improving performance numbers too.

Since you already have one V3 MAXIOPS, then getting another one would be less than ideal for RAID because RAID 5 is probably the best form of RAID and if you only have two drive, you get the capacity of only one drive. RAID 5 seems to cut capacity by a percentage equal to 1/x where x is the amount of drives in the array, so you need to have at least three drives for it to be practical.

So, with two V3 MAXIOPS, RAID 1 or 0 would be the next two main options with 1 meaning pure redundancy, no performance nor capacity boost and 0 meaning exponentially inferior reliability but the full capacity and performance of both drives together. Basically leaves just leaving two V3s as two separate partitions the best solution unless you get a third. Basically, two V3 MAXIOPS lack the RAID advantage.

So, if two SSDs are all that you plan on getting, then you could really go either way with this. Like you said, waiting for the firmware to get a finished version to see the two drives in ideal conditions and then compare them would probably be the best idea for now. If you planned on geting more than one additional drive and V4 had the RAID advantage, then I'd recommend them without a doubt, but that's not the case here, so waiting would probably be the best solution if you have the time, like I said earlier.

Yes, I think that there is utility software for V4.

kikiking · Jun 11, 2012

Well thanks again! I did not know much about raid at all, as in I forgot that raid 0 gives a capacity boost, but is really unstable, and may cause data loss, blue screen of deaths possibility and other issues.

Can you gives information on what type of capacity space raid 3 gives. I saw your example but can you demonstrate it with.

3/5/ etc vertex 4 128 gig drives, I assumed that raid 0 was the odd number 3/5/7/9/11/13 etc, and raid 0 was even so either 2/4/6/8/10/12 etc.

I specifically want to know about the capacity increases of raid 3, and what it does, and a little more about raid 0. I can probably look it all up later, as was said I do not know much about SSD's and never attempted raid, so do not know much about that either.

In the future v4 may be the choice if the gap is that small between them and the plextor.

it seems you said raid 5 cuts capacity by a percentage, meaning it adds all the capacity then divides it and that is what you end up with, besides other benefits?

Well i'd also have to change my mobo to attempt raid 3 I mean, there is only two 6/gbs sata ports on my z68 gigabyte mobo. it has marvel but I doubt those work with raid... i'd have to wait and see.

only one intel on it /sigh.

blazorthon · Jun 11, 2012

kikiking :

The first three levels of RAID that I've looked into much are Raid 0, RAID1, and RAID 5. I've also looked at RAID 10 and 0+1, but they're not important for you.

RAID 0 uses the full capacity of all drives in a system, but if any one drive fails, you lose all data. RAID 0 doesn't decrease the reliability nor stability of each drive, but more drives means more possible points of failures. RAID 0 is a chain that is only as strong as the weakest link.

RAID 1 uses the capacity of only one drive. The more drives in RAID 0, the greater the redundancy and thus the greater reliability of the entire system, but any one drive is no more reliable just because it is now in RAID, having multiple drives simply means that if one drive fails, you don't lose any data. This is a stark contrast to RAID 0.

RAID 5 does something a little different. Instead of improving redundancy to get improved reliability, you get parity. You can look up the RAID wiki and scroll down to RAID 5 to learn about how it does this and what it means if you don't know. From what I understand of it, RAID 5 keeps the full capacity of the system minus one drive. So, with two drives, you get half the capacity. With three drives, you get one third the capacity. With four drives, you get one fourth the capacity and so on. RAID 5 also employs a lot of striping that is similar to RAID 0, but is more complex and due to the parity, much more reliable.

So, two 128GB SSDs in RAID 5 gives you 128GB. Three gives you 256GB. Four gives you 384GB. Five gives you 448GB. Six gives you 512GB and so on. Basically, you get the capacity of the full system minus one drive's worth of capacity. This lost capacity is spent on the parity data and it, like the usable capacity data, is striped across the drives. This incurs huge latency with hard drives (a lot of seek time), but with SSDs, that isn't a problem because their access times are so low.

This is part of why I said that if Vertex 4 had TRIM support in RAID, I'd say to go for it without a doubt if you want a RAID 5 configuration, due to the Vertex 4 having much lower access times than even the Vertex 3 MAXIOPS. Only Marvell's other controllers can come close to the Vertex 4 when it comes to access time and V4 is literally in a different league than the V3 MAXIOPS. That's saying something considering that the V3 MAXIOPS has some pretty darned low access times.

RAID 3 is something that I'll have to look into more before reporting back on.

EDIT: Your right, you only have two Intel SATA 6Gb/s ports, so two SSDs are the best that can be run at full speed. This is definitely one of the few advantages that AMD has over Intel motherboards because AMD has all of their ports as full SATA 6Gb/s and they're much better than Marvell's ports.

kikiking · Jun 12, 2012

Yeah there is a chance I may grab another max iops, or probably just get rid of it, (sell). But I am sold on getting the vertex IV to look and test out, just going to have to wait probably a month and a half, never know a firmware might come out. Only need to focus on when trim support will be applied in raid by intel.

kikiking · Jun 12, 2012

I bet I can't do raid on my marvell ports on my z68 Gigabyte though...

blazorthon · Jun 12, 2012

The Marvell ports should have RAID 0 and RAID 1 support, but they probably don't have RAID 5 or 3 support and they probably can't do RAID with drives on the Intel ports. Chances are that you couldn't use both RAID controllers at the same time anyway, just one or the other.

However, using software RAID in Windows, you could use any storage partitions (regardless of what port/ports they are on) in RAID together. Unfortunately, I don't know if Windows supports RAID 5 in this way... Probably only RAID 0 and 1. However again, there is a workaround for this if you care:
http://log.brandonthomson.com/2009/09/software-raid-5-in-windows-7.html
The only other way that I can think of would be to buy a PCIe RAID controller which would probably be somewhat faster than software RAID of any kind, especially what this page shows, although with SSDs, you'd still get ridiculously higher performance than this guy did with his hard drives.

Also, with software RAID instead of hardware RAID, Vertex 4 should still have TRIM support.

I don't remember if you mentioned it before and this thread has just gotten too long to look through, but what CPU model are you using? I have an idea that might be a lot cheaper than buying a PCIe RAID controller, but I'll need to know what CPU model you have before I know if it's feasible.

kikiking · Jun 12, 2012

When you say software raid you mean stuff like XHD?

i5-2500k

GA-XPz68-UD3

OCZ Vertex IV

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