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TR-7

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Anonymous
June 9, 2004 5:29:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Found the following article at the below link.
I'm not sure if anyone has seen this or not.

Mean Marine



http://gamesradar.msn.co.uk/news/default.asp?pagetypeid...

Eidos reveal first Tomb Raider 7 details





[05/03/04 17:06]
And, thankfully, that control system will be getting the overhaul it's
been needing


Eidos have let slip with the first details of the next instalment of
Tomb Raider - the first game in the series to be developed by Crystal
Dynamics after Brit coders Core Design were dropped last year following the
Angel of Darkness debacle.

"We are doing a lot of market research, in terms of the direction of
the content and of the character," says Eidos CEO Mike McGarvey of the
seventh Tomb Raider. "But the fundamental technology is already complete and
the character is up and running in the environment, with new moves and a new
control system. We are not in a position right now to articulate the
creative direction of the franchise. It's still a little early. But we're
certainly very excited about what we've seen so far."

Tomb Raider's interface has long been a weak point of the series, with
the clumsy controls often leading to hugely frustrating ledge-leaping
episodes, so the fact that this is one of the key issues being addressed in
the new game is certainly a good sign.

Angel of Darkness was originally envisioned by Core as the first part
of a trilogy but, while we've had no plot details as yet for Tomb Raider 7,
judging by McGarvey's comments, it now seems certain that Crystal Dynamics
will be starting afresh and taking the series in a new direction.

The seventh Tomb Raider is due to be released during the financial
year ending 30 June 2005


--


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More about : question

Anonymous
June 9, 2004 5:29:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Mean Marine wrote:
....
> http://gamesradar.msn.co.uk/news/default.asp?pagetypeid...
>
> Eidos reveal first Tomb Raider 7 details
....
> Angel of Darkness was originally envisioned by Core as the first part
> of a trilogy but, while we've had no plot details as yet for Tomb Raider 7,
> judging by McGarvey's comments, it now seems certain that Crystal Dynamics
> will be starting afresh and taking the series in a new direction.

hmmm... so it's probably going to be even less TR game than AOD.

erik
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 2:31:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Erik Steffl wrote:
>
> Mean Marine wrote:
> ...
> > http://gamesradar.msn.co.uk/news/default.asp?pagetypeid...
> >
> > Eidos reveal first Tomb Raider 7 details
> ...
> > Angel of Darkness was originally envisioned by Core as the first part
> > of a trilogy but, while we've had no plot details as yet for Tomb Raider 7,
> > judging by McGarvey's comments, it now seems certain that Crystal Dynamics
> > will be starting afresh and taking the series in a new direction.
>
> hmmm... so it's probably going to be even less TR game than AOD.
>
> erik

They've already set a release date too (this time next year). But
based on their past record on that, I wouldn't count on it. Still,
at least we have some idea now.

-- G
Related resources
Anonymous
June 10, 2004 7:21:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

=>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "Mean Marine"
warbled on about "TR-7" in alt.games.tombraider <<=

> Found the following article at the below link.
> I'm not sure if anyone has seen this or not.

Excellent find. Finally some stuff to sink our poisonous keyboards
into! ;) 

> [05/03/04 17:06]
> And, thankfully, that control system will be getting the overhaul
> it's been needing

I like the fact they say overhaul here. TR1's control system was good
back in the day (1996... how time has flown); being reasonably intuitive
once you learnt it, but it's positively clunky now.

> Eidos have let slip with the first details of the next instalment
> of Tomb Raider - the first game in the series to be developed by Crystal
> Dynamics after Brit coders Core Design were dropped last year following
> the Angel of Darkness debacle.

Pity they couldn't have kept the developer and swapped producers
instead...

> "We are doing a lot of market research, in terms of the direction of
> the content and of the character," says Eidos CEO Mike McGarvey of the

Doesn't sound good. In gaming terms I always equate 'extensive
marketing research' with dumbing it down to the lowest common
denominator. It'll be like Deus Ex 2: they did lotsa market research
there which involved questioning a lot of gamers -- who were probably
all hyperactive 10 year olds with the attention span of... of... well,
his Eep-iness, judging by their answers -- and subsequently ended up
with a game that wasn't half as complex (or interesting) or had half the
content of the original.

> seventh Tomb Raider. "But the fundamental technology is already complete
> and the character is up and running in the environment, with new moves
> and a new control system. We are not in a position right now to
> articulate the creative direction of the franchise. It's still a little
> early. But we're certainly very excited about what we've seen so far."

That's quick... mind you they've just been quiet over the last few
months. They're probably dumped Core's engine given they won't be
familiar with it; can't see them using Project Eden's engine, or
licensing Source, Warfare or the like... [dream on, snark^, dream on...]

So my guess is they're using an updated version of their inhouse Kain
engine? Kiss goodbye to 'ground breaking' PC graphics then... that
thing's barely PS2 capable, let alone stretching.

I actually liked AOD's look; just a pity there wasn't any stuff to do in
it; or do said stuff easily given the retention of the TR1 control
system.

> Tomb Raider's interface has long been a weak point of the series,
> with the clumsy controls often leading to hugely frustrating ledge-
> leaping episodes, so the fact that this is one of the key issues being
> addressed in the new game is certainly a good sign.

Like I said above: the controls were fantastic and very precise once you
got used to them; but in this day and age they have to be made instantly
workable by even the most noobski of gamers. Good news for us godlike
PC owners is that this will mean proper full 360 up-down, left-right
mouselook for us. Yay us! :) 

Provided they actually bother to port it to the PC for us in the first
place. Not-so-yay us... :( 

The Kain games were released on PC weren't they?

> Angel of Darkness was originally envisioned by Core as the first
> part of a trilogy but, while we've had no plot details as yet for Tomb
> Raider 7, judging by McGarvey's comments, it now seems certain that
> Crystal Dynamics will be starting afresh and taking the series in a new
> direction.

Expected. They'll not have half the knowledge of Lara's past and
present that Core had swimming around in their skulls. Start of new
game will feature resolution of Dark Angel plot (TR6, not TV series with
babelicious Ms Alba) Bond-pre-credits style? -- before launching into a
new intro. Wonder if they'll keep her in the tombs or is she destined
for a more Jane-Bondish lifestyle change?

> The seventh Tomb Raider is due to be released during the financial
> year ending 30 June 2005

Oh god. Why not smack the CD employees over the head with the 5kg happy
stick now... they better ask Core's crew how that feels.

Okay, this means it's an 18 month development cycle at most. Could be
that it's just merely a basic port of Lara and the TR creatures, models,
levels and textures + new plot over to the Kain engine? Bet they don't
even hire Judith Gibbons or ol' Inflatable Lips and have Lara voiced by
the guy who does Raziel instead (TR, on the cheap)...

[gravelly voice]
"No. Thatss not right. Go back to the beginning and do that again. Or
else the demons wille at yourrr soulllll"
[/voice]

--
snark^ #gameplanet channel on the etg IRC network snark(at)
www.gameplanet.co.nz ICQ: 1471203 paradise(dot)net(dot)nz
Anonymous
June 10, 2004 4:07:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

snark^ wrote:
>
> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "Mean Marine"
> warbled on about "TR-7" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
[snip]
> > "We are doing a lot of market research, in terms of the direction of
> > the content and of the character," says Eidos CEO Mike McGarvey of the
>
> Doesn't sound good. In gaming terms I always equate 'extensive
> marketing research' with dumbing it down to the lowest common
> denominator. It'll be like Deus Ex 2: they did lotsa market research
> there which involved questioning a lot of gamers -- who were probably
> all hyperactive 10 year olds with the attention span of... of... well,
> his Eep-iness, judging by their answers -- and subsequently ended up
> with a game that wasn't half as complex (or interesting) or had half the
> content of the original.

If you're right, maybe bigger boobs will be high up on their
"should have" list. It's not like that hasn't happened before.
Hopefully it won't be at the expense of good game play, good
puzzles, and interesting exploration.

[snip]
> > Tomb Raider's interface has long been a weak point of the series,
> > with the clumsy controls often leading to hugely frustrating ledge-
> > leaping episodes, so the fact that this is one of the key issues being
> > addressed in the new game is certainly a good sign.
>
> Like I said above: the controls were fantastic and very precise once you
> got used to them;

And the learning curve was short too, IMO. It took some practice
to get really good at it, but that came easily enough as you
played. A well designed game will give you the practice you need
before you'll need it. TR1 may not have been perfect in that
regard, but I thought they did pretty well.

[snip]
> > Angel of Darkness was originally envisioned by Core as the first
> > part of a trilogy but, while we've had no plot details as yet for Tomb
> > Raider 7, judging by McGarvey's comments, it now seems certain that
> > Crystal Dynamics will be starting afresh and taking the series in a new
> > direction.
>
> Expected. They'll not have half the knowledge of Lara's past and
> present that Core had swimming around in their skulls. Start of new
> game will feature resolution of Dark Angel plot (TR6, not TV series with
> babelicious Ms Alba) Bond-pre-credits style? -- before launching into a
> new intro. Wonder if they'll keep her in the tombs or is she destined
> for a more Jane-Bondish lifestyle change?

Seemed like they were already headed in that direction with AoD.

-- G
Anonymous
June 10, 2004 11:55:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Gary Mitchell" wrote

Hmmm....

"We doth repeat ourselves"

(google "What Next for Lara" March 26, 2004)

But hey! It's always fun to heap abuse upon the suits at edios!

> snark^ wrote:
> >
> > =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "Mean Marine"
> > warbled on about "TR-7" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
> [snip]
> > > "We are doing a lot of market research, in terms of the
direction of
> > > the content and of the character," says Eidos CEO Mike McGarvey of the
> >
> > Doesn't sound good. In gaming terms I always equate 'extensive
> > marketing research' with dumbing it down to the lowest common
> > denominator. It'll be like Deus Ex 2: they did lotsa market research
> > there which involved questioning a lot of gamers -- who were probably
> > all hyperactive 10 year olds with the attention span of... of... well,
> > his Eep-iness, judging by their answers -- and subsequently ended up
> > with a game that wasn't half as complex (or interesting) or had half the
> > content of the original.
>
> If you're right, maybe bigger boobs will be high up on their
> "should have" list. It's not like that hasn't happened before.
> Hopefully it won't be at the expense of good game play, good
> puzzles, and interesting exploration.
>

If Snark^ is correct, then that's what's such a bummer.

"Go here & do this"

Cutscene...

"Now mosey over here and do this"

Cutscene...

"Now battle a boss"

Cutscene...

> [snip]
> > > Tomb Raider's interface has long been a weak point of the
series,
> > > with the clumsy controls often leading to hugely frustrating ledge-
> > > leaping episodes, so the fact that this is one of the key issues being
> > > addressed in the new game is certainly a good sign.
> >
> > Like I said above: the controls were fantastic and very precise once you
> > got used to them;
>
> And the learning curve was short too, IMO. It took some practice
> to get really good at it, but that came easily enough as you
> played. A well designed game will give you the practice you need
> before you'll need it. TR1 may not have been perfect in that
> regard, but I thought they did pretty well.
>

Personally, I thought that was the beauty of it. Short learning curve means
most anyone could take to it almost right away. Then it was just a matter
of solving the puzzles and blasting the occasional nasty! :) 

> [snip]
> > > Angel of Darkness was originally envisioned by Core as the first
> > > part of a trilogy but, while we've had no plot details as yet for Tomb
> > > Raider 7, judging by McGarvey's comments, it now seems certain that
> > > Crystal Dynamics will be starting afresh and taking the series in a
new
> > > direction.
> >
> > Expected. They'll not have half the knowledge of Lara's past and
> > present that Core had swimming around in their skulls. Start of new
> > game will feature resolution of Dark Angel plot (TR6, not TV series with
> > babelicious Ms Alba) Bond-pre-credits style? -- before launching into a
> > new intro. Wonder if they'll keep her in the tombs or is she destined
> > for a more Jane-Bondish lifestyle change?
>
> Seemed like they were already headed in that direction with AoD.
>

Story line? I'll bet they just toss it entirely. <growl...>

I'll wager "James Bondish". What's the name of that kind of tongue in cheek
game featuring the sexy secret agent?

Anyway, not looking very good after their conspicuous absence at E3?

Maybe Whizkid was a visionary in immediately declaring TR needs a tombstone
of July with the release of AoD... : /
Anonymous
June 11, 2004 3:35:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

In article <313yc.9223$uX2.6048@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "bbocquin"
<SirTalksAlot@chatteringnuns.com> writes:

>I'll wager "James Bondish". What's the name of that kind of tongue in cheek
>game featuring the sexy secret agent?

I'm betting it's "Nobody Lives Forever: A Spy in H.A.R.M.S. Way". I see it
often enough at the local Wal-Mart.

I could probably give them a general storyline that would bring back the
exploration and tomb raiding aspects of Lara Croft and they'd probably chuck it
into the circular file because they're stupid idiots. Go figure.
Anonymous
June 11, 2004 8:58:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Paul E Kiefer Jr" wrote

> >I'll wager "James Bondish". What's the name of that kind of tongue in
cheek
> >game featuring the sexy secret agent?
>
> I'm betting it's "Nobody Lives Forever: A Spy in H.A.R.M.S. Way". I see
it
> often enough at the local Wal-Mart.
>
> I could probably give them a general storyline that would bring back the
> exploration and tomb raiding aspects of Lara Croft and they'd probably
chuck it
> into the circular file because they're stupid idiots. Go figure.

Yes, nolf-- how could I forget nolf!

As for file 13, yes... :( 

He said the two dreadful words "market research" back in March and folks
were like: "uh oh..."

Well maybe they'll have something to show to E3...

Now...

Think Snark^ mentioned it, but what's the next big convention where we might
get some more news (or lack thereof)?... : /

I'm trying to smile! Really I am...

The glass of water is half full. They're working on slit second pin point
controls, lovely Lara animation, and some kick ass puzzles...

They are working on slit second pin point controls, lovely Lara animation,
and some kick ass puzzles...

They are working on slit second pin point controls, lovely Lara animation,
and some kick ass puzzles...

This is kind of bumming me out.

Think I'll go see what they're up to at nightbomber (dot) com! :) 
Anonymous
June 12, 2004 6:24:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

=>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then Erik Steffl
warbled on about "Re: TR-7" in alt.games.tombraider <<=

> snark^ waffled:
> > Well mouse+WASD looks fine to me. Works just great in Project Eden, The
> > Thing, FAKK2, Outcast... [* /meh stops before me sounds like a borked
> > record *]
>
> of a character of similar nature. walking/shooting characters are not
> a valid comparison. for walking around any control system is ok. for fun
> stuff that lara does you need to be able to control character precisely
> (not _all_ the time, but the fun parts make TR a TR).

All those games had the ability -- they just didn't use it to the same
all-encompassing extent of moves/abilities that TR did. There's nothing
inherantly un-precise about using the mouse.

TR was built upon that blocky step-back-then- run-and-jump-for-3-gaps
type of thing but it's no longer needed. The familiar stuff like not
falling off ledges while walking, or the auto-hanging, could still hold
with a high (non-block based) polygon environment. TRAOD did fine in
this respect.

Measuring your jumps is the only thing that would go and that's maybe
not a bad thing. Perhaps this is where vocal hints could come into it:
line Lara up on a diagonal edge and hear her say, "Umm, not sure if I
can make this leap..."

--
If a centipede a pint and a millipede a quart, how much would a
precipice?
Anonymous
June 12, 2004 6:24:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

snark^ wrote:
> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then Erik Steffl
> warbled on about "Re: TR-7" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
>
>
>>snark^ waffled:
>>
>>>Well mouse+WASD looks fine to me. Works just great in Project Eden, The
>>>Thing, FAKK2, Outcast... [* /meh stops before me sounds like a borked
>>>record *]
>>
>> of a character of similar nature. walking/shooting characters are not
>>a valid comparison. for walking around any control system is ok. for fun
>>stuff that lara does you need to be able to control character precisely
>>(not _all_ the time, but the fun parts make TR a TR).
>
>
> All those games had the ability -- they just didn't use it to the same

what ability are you talking about? walking around and click the
mouse? fine for adventure game but it's not what TR is famous for...

> all-encompassing extent of moves/abilities that TR did. There's nothing
> inherantly un-precise about using the mouse.
>
> TR was built upon that blocky step-back-then- run-and-jump-for-3-gaps
> type of thing but it's no longer needed. The familiar stuff like not
> falling off ledges while walking, or the auto-hanging, could still hold
> with a high (non-block based) polygon environment. TRAOD did fine in
> this respect.
>
> Measuring your jumps is the only thing that would go and that's maybe
> not a bad thing. Perhaps this is where vocal hints could come into it:
> line Lara up on a diagonal edge and hear her say, "Umm, not sure if I
> can make this leap..."

I didn't finish AOD but it was more like walking around than
running/jumping around... I mean in previous games there were places
where you had to jump (slide and jump and grab the ledge etc.). I just
like the idea of controlling the character that does something in the
environment as opposed to pointing at something in environment (and the
character automatically does something).

erik
Anonymous
June 12, 2004 11:23:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

snark^ <snarkamedes@tulgeywook.org> wrote in message news:<b69ec0t5hgnvdcivh60sum4va7vdvk3ggd@4ax.com>...
> Doesn't sound good. In gaming terms I always equate 'extensive
> marketing research' with dumbing it down to the lowest common
> denominator.

<nod> Agree. And lots of BIG EXPLOSIONS in place of puzzles. And
boobs. Lots and lots of boobs.

> Like I said above: the controls were fantastic and very precise once you
> got used to them; but in this day and age they have to be made instantly
> workable by even the most noobski of gamers.

This is probably a really dumb question, but why the hell don't they
sell USB controllers for the computer that look like console
controlers? They sell every other imaginable kind of human interface
control for the computer; this seems like a no-brainer: a keyboard
isn't designed to play with, but a handheld controller is.

re: finishing up AOD's cliffhanger. I didn't play that one, but would
it work if they just used the first level (or first screen, or
training level) to finish up that trainwreck, and then send Lara back
to the tombs?

No more Egypt, please! Me and Lara have been in the desert for 18
hours, and our skin is all dried out and our hair is a mess. Send us
back to the jungle, please, where all the rejuvinating guava jojoba
grows!

Aura
Ewwwwww. I just smacked a bug on my desk, and I have gook all over my
hand! I thought things dissapear when you kill them...
Anonymous
June 12, 2004 11:37:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Ice Queen wrote:
> snark^ <snarkamedes@tulgeywook.org> wrote in message news:<b69ec0t5hgnvdcivh60sum4va7vdvk3ggd@4ax.com>...
>
>>Doesn't sound good. In gaming terms I always equate 'extensive
>>marketing research' with dumbing it down to the lowest common
>>denominator.
>
>
> <nod> Agree. And lots of BIG EXPLOSIONS in place of puzzles. And
> boobs. Lots and lots of boobs.
>
>
>>Like I said above: the controls were fantastic and very precise once you
>>got used to them; but in this day and age they have to be made instantly
>>workable by even the most noobski of gamers.
>
>
> This is probably a really dumb question, but why the hell don't they
> sell USB controllers for the computer that look like console

? they do sell number of different gaming controllers for computers,
the ones that look similar to console gamepads, joysticks, weird stuff
for flight simulators, steering wheels & pedals for driving games etc.

are you saying that the gamepads for PCs are not similar enough to
gamepads that come with consoles? IMO the default console gamepads (that
come with consoles) are not that great...

> controlers? They sell every other imaginable kind of human interface
> control for the computer; this seems like a no-brainer: a keyboard
> isn't designed to play with, but a handheld controller is.

actually I like keyboard more... for some games I prefer gamepad...

....
> Aura
> Ewwwwww. I just smacked a bug on my desk, and I have gook all over my
> hand! I thought things dissapear when you kill them...

yuck! all we need is a photo:-)

erik
Anonymous
June 13, 2004 4:41:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

=>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then Erik Steffl
warbled on about "Re: TR-7" in alt.games.tombraider <<=

> snark^ wrote:
> > All those games had the ability -- they just didn't use it to the same
> > all-encompassing extent of moves/abilities that TR did. There's nothing
> > inherantly un-precise about using the mouse.
>
> what ability are you talking about? walking around and click the
> mouse? fine for adventure game but it's not what TR is famous for...

You can explore, vault onto things, pick stuff up, jump in Project Eden.

You can explore, vault, climb, ledge hug, shimmy along ledges/pipes in
FAKK2. It even has a few moves Lara doesn't.

Indiana Jones almost copies Lara's moves, and gameplay, almost one for
one, and it uses a mouse also.

In none of the games mentioned above does using the mouse prevent you
from moving the main character around in the same style as Lara. That's
the kind of thing I meant. There's nothing that a purely keyboard setup
performs, regards moves and things, that a mouse+keyboard setup can't
do... and more besides. Are you deliberately misunderstanding me as a
kind of wind-up?

> I didn't finish AOD but it was more like walking around than
> running/jumping around... I mean in previous games there were places
> where you had to jump (slide and jump and grab the ledge etc.). I just
> like the idea of controlling the character that does something in the
> environment as opposed to pointing at something in environment (and the
> character automatically does something).

Where the hell did I say that the mouse would be used for a point and
click adventure? I've never said mouse = Monkey Island. I'm talking
(as always) about the mouse being used to turn Lara's view around, ala
FPS games. Have you actually *played* any of the games I mentioned?


--
snark^ #gameplanet channel on the etg IRC network snark(at)
www.gameplanet.co.nz ICQ: 1471203 paradise(dot)net(dot)nz
Anonymous
June 13, 2004 4:41:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

snark^ wrote:
> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then Erik Steffl
> warbled on about "Re: TR-7" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
>
>
>>snark^ wrote:
>>
>>>All those games had the ability -- they just didn't use it to the same
>>>all-encompassing extent of moves/abilities that TR did. There's nothing
>>>inherantly un-precise about using the mouse.
>>
>> what ability are you talking about? walking around and click the
>>mouse? fine for adventure game but it's not what TR is famous for...
>
>
> You can explore, vault onto things, pick stuff up, jump in Project Eden.
>
> You can explore, vault, climb, ledge hug, shimmy along ledges/pipes in
> FAKK2. It even has a few moves Lara doesn't.
>
> Indiana Jones almost copies Lara's moves, and gameplay, almost one for
> one, and it uses a mouse also.
>
> In none of the games mentioned above does using the mouse prevent you
> from moving the main character around in the same style as Lara. That's
> the kind of thing I meant. There's nothing that a purely keyboard setup
> performs, regards moves and things, that a mouse+keyboard setup can't
> do... and more besides. Are you deliberately misunderstanding me as a
> kind of wind-up?

of course adding mouse does not neccessarily take away keyboard
control. but adding mouse often changes how the character can be
controlled via keyboard (like e.g. Oni where you cannot turn the
character using keyboard, only mouse). plus it often changes the nature
of game as described below.

>> I didn't finish AOD but it was more like walking around than
>>running/jumping around... I mean in previous games there were places
>>where you had to jump (slide and jump and grab the ledge etc.). I just
>>like the idea of controlling the character that does something in the
>>environment as opposed to pointing at something in environment (and the
>>character automatically does something).
>
>
> Where the hell did I say that the mouse would be used for a point and
> click adventure? I've never said mouse = Monkey Island. I'm talking
> (as always) about the mouse being used to turn Lara's view around, ala
> FPS games. Have you actually *played* any of the games I mentioned?

FPS games are mostly about moving mouse pointer around the screen and
clicking. in that sense they are very similar to adventure games (in
which you mostly use mouse pointer and click). [I am not saying FPS and
adventure games are similar overall]

as opposed to quite different gameplay where you control character
which does something in the environment.

on one end of the 'controlability' of the character is the interface
used by adventure games - you have no direct control over the character.
You click on things and ask character to perform something. You can
often make character go to a particular spot but only by clicking on
that spot.

on the other end of the spectrum are the games like TR (or lot of
driving games) where you can only control the character which in turn
does something in the environment.

adding the mouse often pushes the game to the 'adventure' control
style (not always, e.g. in urban chaos the mouse is only used to control
the character). While I'd like to see TR to be more 'adventurous' I
would like it to NOT get the 'adventure' control style. So I guess I am
not objecting to the use of mouse but to the switch of gameplay styler
that I think it would bring (maybe it woudln't), at least in the light
of these comments about modern interfaces etc.

erik
Anonymous
June 13, 2004 7:35:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Erik Steffl wrote:

> snark^ wrote:
<snip>
>>
>> Where the hell did I say that the mouse would be used for a point and
>> click adventure? I've never said mouse = Monkey Island. I'm talking
>> (as always) about the mouse being used to turn Lara's view around, ala
>> FPS games. Have you actually *played* any of the games I mentioned?
>
>
> FPS games are mostly about moving mouse pointer around the screen and
> clicking. in that sense they are very similar to adventure games (in
> which you mostly use mouse pointer and click). [I am not saying FPS and
> adventure games are similar overall]
>
> as opposed to quite different gameplay where you control character
> which does something in the environment.
>
> on one end of the 'controlability' of the character is the interface
> used by adventure games - you have no direct control over the character.
> You click on things and ask character to perform something. You can
> often make character go to a particular spot but only by clicking on
> that spot.
>
> on the other end of the spectrum are the games like TR (or lot of
> driving games) where you can only control the character which in turn
> does something in the environment.
>
> adding the mouse often pushes the game to the 'adventure' control
> style (not always, e.g. in urban chaos the mouse is only used to control
> the character). While I'd like to see TR to be more 'adventurous' I
> would like it to NOT get the 'adventure' control style. So I guess I am
> not objecting to the use of mouse but to the switch of gameplay styler
> that I think it would bring (maybe it woudln't), at least in the light
> of these comments about modern interfaces etc.
>
> erik

Yeah, what *he* said!

I agree with you 100%, erik. The infusion of the mouse control seems to
inevitably lead to a "point and click" mentality of control ... I *hate*
that!

In Oni, while it was a very good game, it was very difficult moving well
with one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard. Now in NOLF, while
only an FPS, the control combination worked. I think it had to do with
the complexity of keyboard operation required in Oni of your left hand.
I, as I think most right-handed people are, am not that coordinated
with my left hand.

Which leads to another point of argument against the mouse, in my
opinion. This idea that a game needs to be complex, with dozens of
moves and myriads of controls, thus requiring that the mouse be used to
keep the number of keyboard keys down.

I just do not see the point in making character movements that complex.
I do not play games to exercise my hand muscles, and I don't want to.
I would much rather the challenge be in the proper timing and in doing
the *right* thing (i.e. mental puzzles).

I think this is a fairly common point with TR players, ergo all the
complaining about timed puzzles. It requires *practice* at that
particular puzzle to succeed, a disconcerting and needless requirement
for repetition, if you ask me.

--


Pistol Whipped
Anonymous
June 13, 2004 7:37:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Ice Queen wrote:

<snip>
> Aura
> Ewwwwww. I just smacked a bug on my desk, and I have gook all over my
> hand! I thought things dissapear when you kill them...

LOL!

--


Pistol Whipped
Anonymous
June 13, 2004 2:23:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Pistol Whipped wrote:
>
> Erik Steffl wrote:
>
> > snark^ wrote:
> <snip>
> >>
> >> Where the hell did I say that the mouse would be used for a point and
> >> click adventure? I've never said mouse = Monkey Island. I'm talking
> >> (as always) about the mouse being used to turn Lara's view around, ala
> >> FPS games. Have you actually *played* any of the games I mentioned?
> >
> >
> > FPS games are mostly about moving mouse pointer around the screen and
> > clicking. in that sense they are very similar to adventure games (in
> > which you mostly use mouse pointer and click). [I am not saying FPS and
> > adventure games are similar overall]
> >
> > as opposed to quite different gameplay where you control character
> > which does something in the environment.
> >
> > on one end of the 'controlability' of the character is the interface
> > used by adventure games - you have no direct control over the character.
> > You click on things and ask character to perform something. You can
> > often make character go to a particular spot but only by clicking on
> > that spot.
> >
> > on the other end of the spectrum are the games like TR (or lot of
> > driving games) where you can only control the character which in turn
> > does something in the environment.
> >
> > adding the mouse often pushes the game to the 'adventure' control
> > style (not always, e.g. in urban chaos the mouse is only used to control
> > the character). While I'd like to see TR to be more 'adventurous' I
> > would like it to NOT get the 'adventure' control style. So I guess I am
> > not objecting to the use of mouse but to the switch of gameplay styler
> > that I think it would bring (maybe it woudln't), at least in the light
> > of these comments about modern interfaces etc.
> >
> > erik
>
> Yeah, what *he* said!
>
> I agree with you 100%, erik. The infusion of the mouse control seems to
> inevitably lead to a "point and click" mentality of control ... I *hate*
> that!
>
> In Oni, while it was a very good game, it was very difficult moving well
> with one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard. Now in NOLF, while
> only an FPS, the control combination worked. I think it had to do with
> the complexity of keyboard operation required in Oni of your left hand.
> I, as I think most right-handed people are, am not that coordinated
> with my left hand.
>
> Which leads to another point of argument against the mouse, in my
> opinion. This idea that a game needs to be complex, with dozens of
> moves and myriads of controls, thus requiring that the mouse be used to
> keep the number of keyboard keys down.
>
> I just do not see the point in making character movements that complex.
> I do not play games to exercise my hand muscles, and I don't want to.
> I would much rather the challenge be in the proper timing and in doing
> the *right* thing (i.e. mental puzzles).
>
> I think this is a fairly common point with TR players, ergo all the
> complaining about timed puzzles. It requires *practice* at that
> particular puzzle to succeed, a disconcerting and needless requirement
> for repetition, if you ask me.

I agree with that! Rather than a frantic run to complete a timed
puzzle, I'd much rather Lara could use her head a little... like
propping something against the timed door so that when it opened
it couldn't close again, then she wouldn't have to be in such a
big hurry. But *thinking* your (Lara's) way out of those puzzles
isn't even an option.

-- G
Anonymous
June 13, 2004 2:31:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Ice Queen wrote:
>
> snark^ <snarkamedes@tulgeywook.org> wrote in message news:<b69ec0t5hgnvdcivh60sum4va7vdvk3ggd@4ax.com>...
> > Doesn't sound good. In gaming terms I always equate 'extensive
> > marketing research' with dumbing it down to the lowest common
> > denominator.
>
> <nod> Agree. And lots of BIG EXPLOSIONS in place of puzzles. And
> boobs. Lots and lots of boobs.
>
> > Like I said above: the controls were fantastic and very precise once you
> > got used to them; but in this day and age they have to be made instantly
> > workable by even the most noobski of gamers.
>
> This is probably a really dumb question, but why the hell don't they
> sell USB controllers for the computer that look like console
> controlers? They sell every other imaginable kind of human interface
> control for the computer; this seems like a no-brainer: a keyboard
> isn't designed to play with, but a handheld controller is.

What? Logic and reason? Is that what you expect? Surely
you jest. ;) 

> re: finishing up AOD's cliffhanger. I didn't play that one, but would
> it work if they just used the first level (or first screen, or
> training level) to finish up that trainwreck, and then send Lara back
> to the tombs?
>
> No more Egypt, please! Me and Lara have been in the desert for 18
> hours, and our skin is all dried out and our hair is a mess. Send us
> back to the jungle, please, where all the rejuvinating guava jojoba
> grows!
>
> Aura
> Ewwwwww. I just smacked a bug on my desk, and I have gook all over my
> hand! I thought things dissapear when you kill them...

A good kill doesn't instantly disappear, they fade way.
Out here in the real life, it just takes longer. ;) 
Hmmm... Best not think about that too long, just go wash
off the gook. Might I suggest a piece of paper towel
next time? :) 

-- G
!