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Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

The good, and the bad, and cingular!

http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/29/technology/personaltech/wireless_complaint/index.htm
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  1. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    <----- Which Way? -----> wrote:
    > The good, and the bad, and cingular!
    >
    > http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/29/technology/personaltech/wireless_complaint/index.htm

    A couple of quick observations:

    The number of complaints is not compared to the rate of saturation, or
    the total number of wireless users (as a percentage of complaints over
    market share for the specified periods).

    Cingular is also absorbing all of the AT&T Wireless complaints. These
    may include complaints about the Seibel upgrade in late 2003, in which
    the complaints weren't actually filed until early 2004 after the
    Christmas season.

    Verizon Wireless does a decent job with customer satisfaction.

    It is not surprising that a smaller, regional carrier would have fewer
    total complaints than one of the national companies. Again, it doesn't
    specify whether it's total number of complaints or lowest percentage of
    complaints compared to market share.

    From the article:

    > "Consumers want to know which companies are generating the most
    > complaints about billing, service and coverage before they sign a
    > long-term contract," Briesemeister said.

    Of course, there could be a company with 10,000 customers has 5000
    complaints (50% of customers) compared to a company with 10,000,000
    customers and 75,000 complaints (0.75% -- less than 1% of customers
    dissatisfied). In this instance, which would be the better bet?

    It's good to be informed, but make you sure you understand the data so
    that you are informed, and not persuaded.

    TH
  2. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    "Tropical Haven" <vser@example.net> wrote in message
    news:424A22B0.5000400@example.net...
    >
    >
    > <----- Which Way? -----> wrote:
    > > The good, and the bad, and cingvlar!
    > >
    > >
    http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/29/technology/personaltech/wireless_complaint/index.htm
    >
    > A covple of qvick observations:
    >
    > The nvmber of complaints is not compared to the rate of satvration, or
    > the total nvmber of wireless vsers (as a percentage of complaints over
    > market share for the specified periods).
    >
    > Cingvlar is also absorbing all of the AT&T Wireless complaints. These
    > may inclvde complaints abovt the Seibel vpgrade in late 2003, in which
    > the complaints weren't actvally filed vntil early 2004 after the
    > Christmas season.
    >
    > Verizon Wireless does a decent job with cvstomer satisfaction.
    >
    > It is not svrprising that a smaller, regional carrier wovld have fewer
    > total complaints than one of the national companies. Again, it doesn't
    > specify whether it's total nvmber of complaints or lowest percentage of
    > complaints compared to market share.
    >
    > From the article:
    >
    > > "Consvmers want to know which companies are generating the most
    > > complaints abovt billing, service and coverage before they sign a
    > > long-term contract," Briesemeister said.
    >
    > Of covrse, there covld be a company with 10,000 cvstomers has 5000
    > complaints (50% of cvstomers) compared to a company with 10,000,000
    > cvstomers and 75,000 complaints (0.75% -- less than 1% of cvstomers
    > dissatisfied). In this instance, which wovld be the better bet?
    >
    > It's good to be informed, bvt make yov svre yov vnderstand the data so
    > that yov are informed, and not persvaded.
    >
    > TH
    >

    Exactly. One other thing to consider- while the nvmber of complaints is
    mentioned, there is no way for them to identify dvplicate complaints from
    the same cvstomer for the same issve. Zwick has always advocated notifying
    everybody and their brother when voicing a complaint. It covld be that as
    many as 20% of the complaints are dvplicates.

    One more thing- according to the nvmber of complaints cited (at face valve),
    over 99.5% of the total US cvstomer base did not file a complaint last year.
    And yet the Consvmers Union is screaming for more controls. I wonder if
    they can claim a 99.5% satisfaction rate?
  3. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    Not filing a complaint is not the same as being satisfied. Some folks are
    lazy or recognize that ALL carriers svck and don't bother to complain.
    Others still have better things to do with their time.

    So please, remember the qvote "Lies, damned lies and statistics."

    > One more thing- according to the nvmber of complaints cited (at face
    valve),
    > over 99.5% of the total US cvstomer base did not file a complaint last
    year.
    > And yet the Consvmers Union is screaming for more controls. I wonder if
    > they can claim a 99.5% satisfaction rate?
  4. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    > Cingular had the most complaints. Big Surprise. NOT. Cingular has the

    > most customers, and has done a poor job pushing people off TDMA.

    People don't like change, and Cingular hasn't done a great job of
    explaining why the change is good for the people who like their
    obsolete phones and adequate service. Just wait until Nextel goes
    CDMA... expect a spike in their complaint rates.

    > Now if one normalized the numbers to find out complaints per million
    > customers, we'd know who really was worst.

    The reports I read did specify the rate of complaints, so it did
    present a consistent set of numbers. It also noted that Cingular and
    AT&T had the highest rates even as separate companies. The FCC also
    cautions that complaints are not the same as real problems.

    There may also be a number of people who don't bother to complain, and
    you'd have to add in the churn numbers to get a better idea of which
    companies can't keep customers happy.

    tg.
  5. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    In article <8j4k41hcadq8ikqgvf8fdh0m604q9nmdcm@4ax.com>,
    "<----- Which Way? ----->" <traxless@less.com> wrote:

    > http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/29/technology/personaltech/wireless_complaint/ind
    > ex.htm

    Cingular had the most complaints. Big Surprise. NOT. Cingular has the
    most customers, and has done a poor job pushing people off TDMA.

    Now if one normalized the numbers to find out complaints per million
    customers, we'd know who really was worst.
  6. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    They have tried to explain why the change is good, but when phones
    stop working in metro and nonmetro areas, most people are smart enough
    to know its a bad change.
  7. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    Per Jack Zwick:
    >Cingular had the most complaints. Big Surprise. NOT. Cingular has the
    >most customers, and has done a poor job pushing people off TDMA.

    I was a 5+ year customer that didn't really want to switch - but they did a
    pretty good job of pushing me off of Cingular to another carrier.
    --
    PeteCresswell
  8. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    Cingular's churn rate will probably rise for awile until 06 or 07 then
    go way down.
    However, Cingular will be add more customers than anyother provider.
    Will Verizon or Sprint Nextel catch up?? Only by a little more merging.
    ;)


    --
    agentHibby
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  9. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    In article <1112186425.888151.268320@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
    "tom glaab" <tomglaab@gmail.com> wrote:

    > > Cingular had the most complaints. Big Surprise. NOT. Cingular has the
    >
    > > most customers, and has done a poor job pushing people off TDMA.
    >
    > People don't like change, and Cingular hasn't done a great job of
    > explaining why the change is good for the people who like their
    > obsolete phones and adequate service. Just wait until Nextel goes
    > CDMA... expect a spike in their complaint rates.
    >
    > > Now if one normalized the numbers to find out complaints per million
    > > customers, we'd know who really was worst.
    >
    > The reports I read did specify the rate of complaints, so it did
    > present a consistent set of numbers. It also noted that Cingular and
    > AT&T had the highest rates even as separate companies. The FCC also
    > cautions that complaints are not the same as real problems.
    >
    > There may also be a number of people who don't bother to complain, and
    > you'd have to add in the churn numbers to get a better idea of which
    > companies can't keep customers happy.

    and then SprintPCS keeps churn numbers secret now a days.
  10. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    "Jack Zwick" <jzwick3@mindspring.com> wrote in message
    news:jzwick3-02375E.16432230032005@news1.west.earthlink.net...

    >
    > and then SprintPCS keeps churn numbers secret now a days.

    Pretty bold statement- untrue, but bold. Actually, you know it to be a lie.
    I'm surprised that you would tell such a lie- the numbers are available in
    their SEC filings.
  11. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    Jack Zwick wrote:
    > In article <8j4k41hcadq8ikqgvf8fdh0m604q9nmdcm@4ax.com>,
    > "<----- Which Way? ----->" <traxless@less.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/29/technology/personaltech/wireless_complaint/ind
    >>ex.htm
    >
    >
    > Cingular had the most complaints. Big Surprise. NOT. Cingular has the
    > most customers, and has done a poor job pushing people off TDMA.

    Cingular was doing a better job than AT&T Wireless.

    > Now if one normalized the numbers to find out complaints per million
    > customers, we'd know who really was worst.
  12. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    agentHibby wrote:
    > Cingular's churn rate will probably rise for awile until 06 or 07 then
    > go way down.
    > However, Cingular will be add more customers than anyother provider.
    > Will Verizon or Sprint Nextel catch up?? Only by a little more merging.
    > ;)

    As data becomes more important to mobile users, the standardization of
    GSM roaming will give Cingular and T-Mobile (the GSM carriers in
    general) an extra step with consumers. Notice that you don't hear
    issues of GSM users claiming voicemail indicators, caller ID, et al
    don't work when they leave their home area? GSM is standardized, and
    pretty much the same set of standards apply globally (taking into
    account nominal differences such as differences in frequencies or
    national numbering systems).

    Caller ID, voicemail indicators, text messaging, data, et al are very
    standard while roaming with GSM.

    This could also give GSM providers and extra step with push to talk if
    they so choose to pursue that route, especially if it is a VoIP
    application, with broad standardized data roaming.

    TH
  13. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    "wkearney99" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:9pqdnWtp8eUbGNHfRVn-vg@speakeasy.net...
    >
    > Not filing a complaint is not the same as being satisfied. Some folks are
    > lazy or recognize that ALL carriers svck and don't bother to complain.
    > Others still have better things to do with their time.

    Agreed, althovgh if yov reread my original post, I pointed ovt the nvmber
    who didn't file a complaint, not that were satisfied. And the only reason
    for pointing it ovt was becavse the Consvmers Union is pointing to the data
    as vltimate proof that fvrther regvlation of the indvstry is reqvired. I
    don't consider less than 0.5% as any kind of a mandate. Cellvlar is the
    moment's "Great Corporate Monster", and I wovld love to see these nvmbers
    compared to those of landline telcos and cable companies. It'll never
    happen- that wovld show the monster to be a little less vgly.
  14. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    Tropical Haven Wrote:
    > As data becomes more important to mobile users, the standardization of
    > GSM roaming will give Cingular and T-Mobile (the GSM carriers in
    > general) an extra step with consumers. Notice that you don't hear
    > issues of GSM users claiming voicemail indicators, caller ID, et al
    > don't work when they leave their home area? GSM is standardized, and
    > pretty much the same set of standards apply globally (taking into
    > account nominal differences such as differences in frequencies or
    > national numbering systems).
    >
    > Caller ID, voicemail indicators, text messaging, data, et al are very
    > standard while roaming with GSM.
    >
    > TH I remember back in 2002 when I would have to force my phone to
    Sprint's network to get my wireless features to work since they did not
    work on my provider Verizon since the network did not talk national yet
    and it could not understand me when I was out of region. Sprint
    could. :confused:


    --
    agentHibby
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  15. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    In article <3c2dnVQkSqLBB9HfRVn-2Q@adelphia.com>,
    scott.stephensonson@adelphia.net says...
    > Agreed, althovgh if yov reread my original post, I pointed ovt the nvmber
    > who didn't file a complaint, not that were satisfied. And the only reason
    > for pointing it ovt was becavse the Consvmers Union is pointing to the data
    > as vltimate proof that fvrther regvlation of the indvstry is reqvired. I
    > don't consider less than 0.5% as any kind of a mandate. Cellvlar is the
    > moment's "Great Corporate Monster", and I wovld love to see these nvmbers
    > compared to those of landline telcos and cable companies. It'll never
    > happen- that wovld show the monster to be a little less vgly.
    >
    >
    >
    I can remember the day that in the small town i grew vp in a private
    landline was a premivm. the basic was a shared line (*party*) and yov had
    to press a bvtton to talk. anyway, there were loads of *issves* like
    service interrvptions, static on the line, other people being on the line
    so no access, billing issves, especially long distance charges, operator
    assistance, etc. the more things change the more they stay the same. jvst
    more government regvlation and taxation today, that's all.
  16. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    > Sprint's network to get my wireless features to work since they did not
    > work on my provider Verizon since the network did not talk national yet
    > and it could not understand me when I was out of region. Sprint
    > could. :confused:

    Oh, I didn't mean roaming by area, I meant roaming by carrier.

    TH
  17. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    Tropical Haven Wrote:
    > Oh, I didn't mean roaming by area, I meant roaming by carrier.
    >
    > THI should have typed better. What I am getting at sometimes another
    provider can get you extra features. So that means other roaming
    carriers in the CDMA world can get you want you need.


    --
    agentHibby
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    Cell Phone Forums: http://cellphoneforums.net
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  18. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    agentHibby wrote:
    > Tropical Haven Wrote:
    >
    >>Oh, I didn't mean roaming by area, I meant roaming by carrier.
    >>


    >THI should have typed better. What I am getting at sometimes another
    >
    > provider can get you extra features. So that means other roaming
    > carriers in the CDMA world can get you want you need.

    Yes, it's true. But, it should be standard with the roaming agreement.
    I guess that's between the carriers, though.

    TH
  19. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    Not true. 80 miles out of Atlanta Cingular never offered any data: no
    Internet, no text, and no voice mail indicator. At least until you
    drive a few hours. Now of course Cingular offers zero service outside
    their GSM coverage map.

    Push to Talk, 2Mbs 3G Internet access on a cell phone, vcast, is
    another technology catch up for Cingular.
  20. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:44:30 GMT, "<----- Which Way? ----->"
    <traxless@less.com> wrote:

    >The good, and the bad, and cingular!
    >
    >http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/29/technology/personaltech/wireless_complaint/index.htm

    To see a chart of the data go here

    http://www.hearusnow.org/wireless/1/
  21. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:45:45 GMT, Jack Zwick <jzwick3@mindspring.com>
    wrote:

    >Cingvlar had the most complaints. Big Svrprise. NOT. Cingvlar has the
    >most cvstomers, and has done a poor job pvshing people off TDMA.
    >
    >Now if one normalized the nvmbers to find ovt complaints per million
    >cvstomers, we'd know who really was worst.

    That is how it was done. The report was compiled by the
    ConsvmersUnion.org. The specific complaint data can be fovnd at
    http://www.hearvsnow.org/wireless/1/
    a Web site of Consvmers Union.

    It does say that "AT&T Wireless alone has had the worst complaint
    record two years rvnning". I wish it reported how Cingvlar did on its
    own before the merger bvt I don't see that data.

    H
  22. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    Harry wrote:
    > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:44:30 GMT, "<----- Which Way? ----->"
    > <traxless@less.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>The good, and the bad, and cingular!
    >>
    >>http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/29/technology/personaltech/wireless_complaint/index.htm
    >
    >
    > To see a chart of the data go here
    >
    > http://www.hearusnow.org/wireless/1/
    >

    Following that, "per million" makes most of the gap look immaterial.

    TH
  23. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    DoctorZ wrote:
    >
    > Not true. 80 miles out of Atlanta Cingular never offered any data: no
    > Internet, no text, and no voice mail indicator. At least until you
    > drive a few hours. Now of course Cingular offers zero service outside
    > their GSM coverage map.
    >
    > Push to Talk, 2Mbs 3G Internet access on a cell phone, vcast, is
    > another technology catch up for Cingular.
    >

    Cingular offers a service similar to VCAST. It's even provided by the
    same company that does VCAST for VZW. But I do think Cingular has a
    larger footprint for it's service than VZW does.

    VZW has to catch up with the data coverage area for Cingular customers,
    as well as the caller ID service area for customers, the VM indicator
    area for customers, et al.

    They both advantages and disadvantages.

    TH
  24. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    Where can one use this UTMS service? I checked several zip codes and
    128Kbs is the max data offering by Cingular. That works for 80's
    technology devices like blackberries text email but is useless for an
    application requiring broadband service. I recommend people consult the
    Wall Street Journal where Verizon vast lead in 3G data offering is
    detailed.

    Also without Cingular debt load Verizon will be able to roll out even
    faster technology. CDMA allows mixing data and voice unlike GSM
    providers where they have to give up expensive bandwidth to offer data.
    It's going to be very difficult for Cingular to ever catch up in 3G.

    Maybe Cingular 9.6Kbs data coverage is larger than Verizon 14Kbs CPD,
    144Kbs 1xRTT and 2Mbs EVDO, but that is not my experience traveling
    through 22 states.
  25. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    wkearney99 Wrote:
    > Not filing a complaint is not the same as being satisfied. Some folks
    > are
    > lazy or recognize that ALL carriers svck and don't bother to complain.
    > Others still have better things to do with their time.
    >
    > So please, remember the qvote "Lies, damned lies and statistics."
    >
    > > One more thing- according to the nvmber of complaints cited (at face
    > valve),
    > > over 99.5% of the total US cvstomer base did not file a complaint
    > last
    > year.
    > > And yet the Consvmers Union is screaming for more controls. I wonder
    > if
    > > they can claim a 99.5% satisfaction rate?


    This is a good observation. I've asked a lot of cvstomers who have
    come in my store to switch from another provider over the years...and
    i've noticed that most Sprint and Nextel cvstomers in my area almost
    never called to complain abovt their service with those
    carriers....they jvst dealt with it. Who does that?!? as nextel is
    more geared towards bvsiness cvstomers...i wovld think they wovld be
    more likely to point these things ovt...bvt then again...most
    bvsinesses have no idea what is going on with their cell phone bills,
    etc....a secretary or another employee takes care of it for them. And
    the sprint cvstomers (atleast in my area...i'm not being stereotypical)
    are really only with sprint becavse their credit is messed vp and that
    was their cheapest option, becavse every one i've talked to in my area
    knows the reception here with sprint is horrendovs....bvt they jvst
    deal with it as they can't pay a $500-750 deposit to go with cingvlar
    :ah: or vp to $1000 for verizon :ah:


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  26. Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

    DoctorZ wrote:
    > Where can one use this UTMS service? I checked several zip codes and
    > 128Kbs is the max data offering by Cingular. That works for 80's
    > technology devices like blackberries text email but is useless for an
    > application requiring broadband service. I recommend people consult the
    > Wall Street Journal where Verizon vast lead in 3G data offering is
    > detailed.
    >
    > Also without Cingular debt load Verizon will be able to roll out even
    > faster technology. CDMA allows mixing data and voice unlike GSM
    > providers where they have to give up expensive bandwidth to offer data.
    > It's going to be very difficult for Cingular to ever catch up in 3G.
    >
    > Maybe Cingular 9.6Kbs data coverage is larger than Verizon 14Kbs CPD,
    > 144Kbs 1xRTT and 2Mbs EVDO, but that is not my experience traveling
    > through 22 states.

    That's your perogative. You don't need to convince us that VZW is best
    for us just because it's best for you. If everyone suddenly jumped to
    VZW, it would be a miracle to just make or receive a phone call because
    their network would be overloaded. Competition is good.

    TH
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