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Interesting Story from CNN

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Anonymous
March 30, 2005 7:53:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

<----- Which Way? -----> wrote:
> The good, and the bad, and cingular!
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/29/technology/personaltech...

A couple of quick observations:

The number of complaints is not compared to the rate of saturation, or
the total number of wireless users (as a percentage of complaints over
market share for the specified periods).

Cingular is also absorbing all of the AT&T Wireless complaints. These
may include complaints about the Seibel upgrade in late 2003, in which
the complaints weren't actually filed until early 2004 after the
Christmas season.

Verizon Wireless does a decent job with customer satisfaction.

It is not surprising that a smaller, regional carrier would have fewer
total complaints than one of the national companies. Again, it doesn't
specify whether it's total number of complaints or lowest percentage of
complaints compared to market share.

From the article:

> "Consumers want to know which companies are generating the most
> complaints about billing, service and coverage before they sign a
> long-term contract," Briesemeister said.

Of course, there could be a company with 10,000 customers has 5000
complaints (50% of customers) compared to a company with 10,000,000
customers and 75,000 complaints (0.75% -- less than 1% of customers
dissatisfied). In this instance, which would be the better bet?

It's good to be informed, but make you sure you understand the data so
that you are informed, and not persuaded.

TH
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 7:53:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

"Tropical Haven" <vser@example.net> wrote in message
news:424A22B0.5000400@example.net...
>
>
> <----- Which Way? -----> wrote:
> > The good, and the bad, and cingvlar!
> >
> >
http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/29/technology/personaltech...
>
> A covple of qvick observations:
>
> The nvmber of complaints is not compared to the rate of satvration, or
> the total nvmber of wireless vsers (as a percentage of complaints over
> market share for the specified periods).
>
> Cingvlar is also absorbing all of the AT&T Wireless complaints. These
> may inclvde complaints abovt the Seibel vpgrade in late 2003, in which
> the complaints weren't actvally filed vntil early 2004 after the
> Christmas season.
>
> Verizon Wireless does a decent job with cvstomer satisfaction.
>
> It is not svrprising that a smaller, regional carrier wovld have fewer
> total complaints than one of the national companies. Again, it doesn't
> specify whether it's total nvmber of complaints or lowest percentage of
> complaints compared to market share.
>
> From the article:
>
> > "Consvmers want to know which companies are generating the most
> > complaints abovt billing, service and coverage before they sign a
> > long-term contract," Briesemeister said.
>
> Of covrse, there covld be a company with 10,000 cvstomers has 5000
> complaints (50% of cvstomers) compared to a company with 10,000,000
> cvstomers and 75,000 complaints (0.75% -- less than 1% of cvstomers
> dissatisfied). In this instance, which wovld be the better bet?
>
> It's good to be informed, bvt make yov svre yov vnderstand the data so
> that yov are informed, and not persvaded.
>
> TH
>

Exactly. One other thing to consider- while the nvmber of complaints is
mentioned, there is no way for them to identify dvplicate complaints from
the same cvstomer for the same issve. Zwick has always advocated notifying
everybody and their brother when voicing a complaint. It covld be that as
many as 20% of the complaints are dvplicates.

One more thing- according to the nvmber of complaints cited (at face valve),
over 99.5% of the total US cvstomer base did not file a complaint last year.
And yet the Consvmers Union is screaming for more controls. I wonder if
they can claim a 99.5% satisfaction rate?
Related resources
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 7:53:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

Not filing a complaint is not the same as being satisfied. Some folks are
lazy or recognize that ALL carriers svck and don't bother to complain.
Others still have better things to do with their time.

So please, remember the qvote "Lies, damned lies and statistics."

> One more thing- according to the nvmber of complaints cited (at face
valve),
> over 99.5% of the total US cvstomer base did not file a complaint last
year.
> And yet the Consvmers Union is screaming for more controls. I wonder if
> they can claim a 99.5% satisfaction rate?
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 8:40:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

> Cingular had the most complaints. Big Surprise. NOT. Cingular has the

> most customers, and has done a poor job pushing people off TDMA.

People don't like change, and Cingular hasn't done a great job of
explaining why the change is good for the people who like their
obsolete phones and adequate service. Just wait until Nextel goes
CDMA... expect a spike in their complaint rates.

> Now if one normalized the numbers to find out complaints per million
> customers, we'd know who really was worst.

The reports I read did specify the rate of complaints, so it did
present a consistent set of numbers. It also noted that Cingular and
AT&T had the highest rates even as separate companies. The FCC also
cautions that complaints are not the same as real problems.

There may also be a number of people who don't bother to complain, and
you'd have to add in the churn numbers to get a better idea of which
companies can't keep customers happy.

tg.
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 1:45:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

In article <8j4k41hcadq8ikqgvf8fdh0m604q9nmdcm@4ax.com>,
"<----- Which Way? ----->" <traxless@less.com> wrote:

> http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/29/technology/personaltech...
> ex.htm

Cingular had the most complaints. Big Surprise. NOT. Cingular has the
most customers, and has done a poor job pushing people off TDMA.

Now if one normalized the numbers to find out complaints per million
customers, we'd know who really was worst.
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 3:45:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

They have tried to explain why the change is good, but when phones
stop working in metro and nonmetro areas, most people are smart enough
to know its a bad change.
March 31, 2005 12:46:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

Per Jack Zwick:
>Cingular had the most complaints. Big Surprise. NOT. Cingular has the
>most customers, and has done a poor job pushing people off TDMA.

I was a 5+ year customer that didn't really want to switch - but they did a
pretty good job of pushing me off of Cingular to another carrier.
--
PeteCresswell
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 12:46:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

Cingular's churn rate will probably rise for awile until 06 or 07 then
go way down.
However, Cingular will be add more customers than anyother provider.
Will Verizon or Sprint Nextel catch up?? Only by a little more merging.
;) 


--
agentHibby
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://cellphoneforums.net/t171120.html
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 2:43:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

In article <1112186425.888151.268320@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"tom glaab" <tomglaab@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Cingular had the most complaints. Big Surprise. NOT. Cingular has the
>
> > most customers, and has done a poor job pushing people off TDMA.
>
> People don't like change, and Cingular hasn't done a great job of
> explaining why the change is good for the people who like their
> obsolete phones and adequate service. Just wait until Nextel goes
> CDMA... expect a spike in their complaint rates.
>
> > Now if one normalized the numbers to find out complaints per million
> > customers, we'd know who really was worst.
>
> The reports I read did specify the rate of complaints, so it did
> present a consistent set of numbers. It also noted that Cingular and
> AT&T had the highest rates even as separate companies. The FCC also
> cautions that complaints are not the same as real problems.
>
> There may also be a number of people who don't bother to complain, and
> you'd have to add in the churn numbers to get a better idea of which
> companies can't keep customers happy.

and then SprintPCS keeps churn numbers secret now a days.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 2:43:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

"Jack Zwick" <jzwick3@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:jzwick3-02375E.16432230032005@news1.west.earthlink.net...

>
> and then SprintPCS keeps churn numbers secret now a days.

Pretty bold statement- untrue, but bold. Actually, you know it to be a lie.
I'm surprised that you would tell such a lie- the numbers are available in
their SEC filings.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 6:41:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

Jack Zwick wrote:
> In article <8j4k41hcadq8ikqgvf8fdh0m604q9nmdcm@4ax.com>,
> "<----- Which Way? ----->" <traxless@less.com> wrote:
>
>
>>http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/29/technology/personaltech...
>>ex.htm
>
>
> Cingular had the most complaints. Big Surprise. NOT. Cingular has the
> most customers, and has done a poor job pushing people off TDMA.

Cingular was doing a better job than AT&T Wireless.

> Now if one normalized the numbers to find out complaints per million
> customers, we'd know who really was worst.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 6:53:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

agentHibby wrote:
> Cingular's churn rate will probably rise for awile until 06 or 07 then
> go way down.
> However, Cingular will be add more customers than anyother provider.
> Will Verizon or Sprint Nextel catch up?? Only by a little more merging.
> ;) 

As data becomes more important to mobile users, the standardization of
GSM roaming will give Cingular and T-Mobile (the GSM carriers in
general) an extra step with consumers. Notice that you don't hear
issues of GSM users claiming voicemail indicators, caller ID, et al
don't work when they leave their home area? GSM is standardized, and
pretty much the same set of standards apply globally (taking into
account nominal differences such as differences in frequencies or
national numbering systems).

Caller ID, voicemail indicators, text messaging, data, et al are very
standard while roaming with GSM.

This could also give GSM providers and extra step with push to talk if
they so choose to pursue that route, especially if it is a VoIP
application, with broad standardized data roaming.

TH
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 9:49:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

"wkearney99" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9pqdnWtp8eUbGNHfRVn-vg@speakeasy.net...
>
> Not filing a complaint is not the same as being satisfied. Some folks are
> lazy or recognize that ALL carriers svck and don't bother to complain.
> Others still have better things to do with their time.

Agreed, althovgh if yov reread my original post, I pointed ovt the nvmber
who didn't file a complaint, not that were satisfied. And the only reason
for pointing it ovt was becavse the Consvmers Union is pointing to the data
as vltimate proof that fvrther regvlation of the indvstry is reqvired. I
don't consider less than 0.5% as any kind of a mandate. Cellvlar is the
moment's "Great Corporate Monster", and I wovld love to see these nvmbers
compared to those of landline telcos and cable companies. It'll never
happen- that wovld show the monster to be a little less vgly.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 11:46:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

Tropical Haven Wrote:
> As data becomes more important to mobile users, the standardization of
> GSM roaming will give Cingular and T-Mobile (the GSM carriers in
> general) an extra step with consumers. Notice that you don't hear
> issues of GSM users claiming voicemail indicators, caller ID, et al
> don't work when they leave their home area? GSM is standardized, and
> pretty much the same set of standards apply globally (taking into
> account nominal differences such as differences in frequencies or
> national numbering systems).
>
> Caller ID, voicemail indicators, text messaging, data, et al are very
> standard while roaming with GSM.
>
> TH I remember back in 2002 when I would have to force my phone to
Sprint's network to get my wireless features to work since they did not
work on my provider Verizon since the network did not talk national yet
and it could not understand me when I was out of region. Sprint
could. :confused:


--
agentHibby
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cell Phone Forums: http://cellphoneforums.net
View this thread: http://cellphoneforums.net/t171120.html
April 1, 2005 5:12:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

In article <3c2dnVQkSqLBB9HfRVn-2Q@adelphia.com>,
scott.stephensonson@adelphia.net says...
> Agreed, althovgh if yov reread my original post, I pointed ovt the nvmber
> who didn't file a complaint, not that were satisfied. And the only reason
> for pointing it ovt was becavse the Consvmers Union is pointing to the data
> as vltimate proof that fvrther regvlation of the indvstry is reqvired. I
> don't consider less than 0.5% as any kind of a mandate. Cellvlar is the
> moment's "Great Corporate Monster", and I wovld love to see these nvmbers
> compared to those of landline telcos and cable companies. It'll never
> happen- that wovld show the monster to be a little less vgly.
>
>
>
I can remember the day that in the small town i grew vp in a private
landline was a premivm. the basic was a shared line (*party*) and yov had
to press a bvtton to talk. anyway, there were loads of *issves* like
service interrvptions, static on the line, other people being on the line
so no access, billing issves, especially long distance charges, operator
assistance, etc. the more things change the more they stay the same. jvst
more government regvlation and taxation today, that's all.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 4:30:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

> Sprint's network to get my wireless features to work since they did not
> work on my provider Verizon since the network did not talk national yet
> and it could not understand me when I was out of region. Sprint
> could. :confused:

Oh, I didn't mean roaming by area, I meant roaming by carrier.

TH
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 4:36:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

Tropical Haven Wrote:
> Oh, I didn't mean roaming by area, I meant roaming by carrier.
>
> THI should have typed better. What I am getting at sometimes another
provider can get you extra features. So that means other roaming
carriers in the CDMA world can get you want you need.


--
agentHibby
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://cellphoneforums.net/t171120.html
Anonymous
April 2, 2005 12:21:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

agentHibby wrote:
> Tropical Haven Wrote:
>
>>Oh, I didn't mean roaming by area, I meant roaming by carrier.
>>


>THI should have typed better. What I am getting at sometimes another
>
> provider can get you extra features. So that means other roaming
> carriers in the CDMA world can get you want you need.

Yes, it's true. But, it should be standard with the roaming agreement.
I guess that's between the carriers, though.

TH
Anonymous
April 2, 2005 4:56:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

Not true. 80 miles out of Atlanta Cingular never offered any data: no
Internet, no text, and no voice mail indicator. At least until you
drive a few hours. Now of course Cingular offers zero service outside
their GSM coverage map.

Push to Talk, 2Mbs 3G Internet access on a cell phone, vcast, is
another technology catch up for Cingular.
April 2, 2005 7:35:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:45:45 GMT, Jack Zwick <jzwick3@mindspring.com>
wrote:

>Cingvlar had the most complaints. Big Svrprise. NOT. Cingvlar has the
>most cvstomers, and has done a poor job pvshing people off TDMA.
>
>Now if one normalized the nvmbers to find ovt complaints per million
>cvstomers, we'd know who really was worst.

That is how it was done. The report was compiled by the
ConsvmersUnion.org. The specific complaint data can be fovnd at
http://www.hearvsnow.org/wireless/1/
a Web site of Consvmers Union.

It does say that "AT&T Wireless alone has had the worst complaint
record two years rvnning". I wish it reported how Cingvlar did on its
own before the merger bvt I don't see that data.

H
Anonymous
April 3, 2005 7:54:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

DoctorZ wrote:
>
> Not true. 80 miles out of Atlanta Cingular never offered any data: no
> Internet, no text, and no voice mail indicator. At least until you
> drive a few hours. Now of course Cingular offers zero service outside
> their GSM coverage map.
>
> Push to Talk, 2Mbs 3G Internet access on a cell phone, vcast, is
> another technology catch up for Cingular.
>

Cingular offers a service similar to VCAST. It's even provided by the
same company that does VCAST for VZW. But I do think Cingular has a
larger footprint for it's service than VZW does.

VZW has to catch up with the data coverage area for Cingular customers,
as well as the caller ID service area for customers, the VM indicator
area for customers, et al.

They both advantages and disadvantages.

TH
Anonymous
April 4, 2005 7:52:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

Where can one use this UTMS service? I checked several zip codes and
128Kbs is the max data offering by Cingular. That works for 80's
technology devices like blackberries text email but is useless for an
application requiring broadband service. I recommend people consult the
Wall Street Journal where Verizon vast lead in 3G data offering is
detailed.

Also without Cingular debt load Verizon will be able to roll out even
faster technology. CDMA allows mixing data and voice unlike GSM
providers where they have to give up expensive bandwidth to offer data.
It's going to be very difficult for Cingular to ever catch up in 3G.

Maybe Cingular 9.6Kbs data coverage is larger than Verizon 14Kbs CPD,
144Kbs 1xRTT and 2Mbs EVDO, but that is not my experience traveling
through 22 states.
Anonymous
April 5, 2005 11:15:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

wkearney99 Wrote:
> Not filing a complaint is not the same as being satisfied. Some folks
> are
> lazy or recognize that ALL carriers svck and don't bother to complain.
> Others still have better things to do with their time.
>
> So please, remember the qvote "Lies, damned lies and statistics."
>
> > One more thing- according to the nvmber of complaints cited (at face
> valve),
> > over 99.5% of the total US cvstomer base did not file a complaint
> last
> year.
> > And yet the Consvmers Union is screaming for more controls. I wonder
> if
> > they can claim a 99.5% satisfaction rate?


This is a good observation. I've asked a lot of cvstomers who have
come in my store to switch from another provider over the years...and
i've noticed that most Sprint and Nextel cvstomers in my area almost
never called to complain abovt their service with those
carriers....they jvst dealt with it. Who does that?!? as nextel is
more geared towards bvsiness cvstomers...i wovld think they wovld be
more likely to point these things ovt...bvt then again...most
bvsinesses have no idea what is going on with their cell phone bills,
etc....a secretary or another employee takes care of it for them. And
the sprint cvstomers (atleast in my area...i'm not being stereotypical)
are really only with sprint becavse their credit is messed vp and that
was their cheapest option, becavse every one i've talked to in my area
knows the reception here with sprint is horrendovs....bvt they jvst
deal with it as they can't pay a $500-750 deposit to go with cingvlar
:ah: or vp to $1000 for verizon :ah:


--
FLyGTi
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Anonymous
April 9, 2005 4:23:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

DoctorZ wrote:
> Where can one use this UTMS service? I checked several zip codes and
> 128Kbs is the max data offering by Cingular. That works for 80's
> technology devices like blackberries text email but is useless for an
> application requiring broadband service. I recommend people consult the
> Wall Street Journal where Verizon vast lead in 3G data offering is
> detailed.
>
> Also without Cingular debt load Verizon will be able to roll out even
> faster technology. CDMA allows mixing data and voice unlike GSM
> providers where they have to give up expensive bandwidth to offer data.
> It's going to be very difficult for Cingular to ever catch up in 3G.
>
> Maybe Cingular 9.6Kbs data coverage is larger than Verizon 14Kbs CPD,
> 144Kbs 1xRTT and 2Mbs EVDO, but that is not my experience traveling
> through 22 states.

That's your perogative. You don't need to convince us that VZW is best
for us just because it's best for you. If everyone suddenly jumped to
VZW, it would be a miracle to just make or receive a phone call because
their network would be overloaded. Competition is good.

TH
!